Author Topic: Overwatch, Battleborn, and Paladins  (Read 21637 times)

Offline Wingflier

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,753
  • To add me on Steam, click the little Steam icon ^
Re: Overwatch, Battleborn, and Paladins
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2016, 03:49:42 pm »
Quote
Thing is, they could be avoided by a skilled player by either avoiding known sniper positions or doing good spychecking, while the impression I get from a lot of Overwatch videos and my limited playtime is that a lot of the ult abilities are unreasonably difficult to avoid.
Well there's 21 heroes so yeah, knowing all of their abilities and ultimates (and how to avoid them) is pretty knowledge-intensive. It's not like a top-down MOBA where you can see pretty clearly what's happening, a lot of the time you're killed from miles away by a target that was either above you, behind you, or everywhere at once. Of course the Killcam does help with this, but it'll still take a long time to figure it all out.

The ult abilities sometimes just make the game stupid. I'll give 3 examples from a recent game. So this was an "Attack" mission for my team, and a "Defend" mission for their team. The objective is simple enough, all you do is capture a point by standing on it. The more people you have standing on it, the faster you capture it, and the enemy team does their best to prevent this from happening.

Well, there's a lot of heroes in the game that make attacking a point a living nightmare. The Dwarf Engineer character with the turret is tough enough because the turret has an unlimited range and is perfectly accurate at all ranges (no turret rotation speed), meaning that if he places it correctly it can cut down your team from miles away while being almost impossible to hit. However, getting close to it means getting close to his team who of course are going to be defending it. Then Bastion who can turn into his own turret/gatling gun has a similar strength/frustration but it's at least a little more balanced since he presents a bigger target and the player actually has to aim. Finally, Roadhog who puts these bear traps on the most common flanking paths which can trap several people at once. He also has the demo grenades like in TF2 and sticky mines that he can detonate manually.

So all of this is hard enough to circumvent. Oh don't get me wrong, if you were a professional team who were super coordinated and knew all the counters to this stuff it would probably be a piece of cake. But playing with 5 other random players...It's tough because any one of those characters can kill several of you on their own with ease.

However, the real frustration comes when your team finally does gather the necessary coordination and momentum to finally capture the point. Sounds great right? You're all on the point and life is good, now you can win. OH, except did I mention that these 3 characters who were hard enough to deal with before now have their ULTIMATES ready, and are about to anally assault you in the most gruesome and terrifying ways imaginable.

The Dwarf Engineer's ultimate heals all of his health and gives him like 800 armor, basically making him invincible for the duration of like ten seconds. It also upgrades his turret to level 3 and make it near-invincible. The level 3 turret in Overwatch is pretty much same as it is in TF2. It has rockets and it destroys everything in milliseconds. Except in TF2 you can kill it pretty easily, but in Overwatch it's invincible while temporarily upgraded. So basically, he's god mode (both his character and his turret) for ten seconds. On his own he could easily wipe out a team.

Then Bastion's ult heals all his health and turns him into a tank (not figuratively, a literal tank) whose shots do massive aoe damage and can also easily destroy an entire team attempting to capture a point. He's fairly difficult to kill as well in this mode and can fire about once per second.

Roadhog's ultimate allows him to, from afar (a place he can't be attacked) create a mobile, guided bomb which he can then manually steer to a location only for it to explode and deal incredible (read: team killing) aoe damage, pretty much wiping the entire enemy team off of the point immediately just by exploding it in the middle.

So by the time your team finally does gain the coordination and/or luck required to take the point, the enemy team just pops all of their ultimates and you're all instantly wiped. Keep in mind I just listed THREE. They still have 3 other team members with their own ults so good luck.

Of course you have ults too, but you will have probably already used them just to get on the point, and since ults are generally better at killing enemies than protecting yourself (with a few exceptions) they aren't much going to help you survive the inevitable onslaught.

One final nail in the coffin is that these ultimates, while incredibly frustrating and overwhelmingly awful to deal with, are always off cooldown again by the time your team has finally gathered its wits and coordination to take the point again, leading to a feeling of utter desperation and hopelessness because no matter what you try, it seems impossible to even think about winning.

Which in general makes defending in Overwatch a lot more fun than attacking. I've been told by a friend (who I trust) that in high-level competitive play, attacking is actually considered the easier objective, and I wouldn't necessarily doubt that if your entire team was well-balanced, well-coordinated, well-practiced, and using some kind of VOIP program, but with 5 random players? The ultimates often make it feel insurmountable.

Symmetra is a really good character (one of my personal favorites), but her abilities make her much more useful on defense than offense. She's almost useless on offense because she has these miniature turrets you set up on walls, however each one takes a couple seconds to set up (which in a game like this is an eternity), and you have to have 3-4 for them really to be useful. They're also pretty squishy so you want to set them up in an area beforehand, which is perfect on defense, but very non-realistic on offense. She also has a shield which you can place on allies, though it has a short cooldown. This is much easier to do on defense as all your team is usually gathered in an area, than on offense where everyone is moving around quickly attempting to attack from multiple angles.

So yeah, Symmetra is great on defense, her ultimate (portal) allies teams to travel to the objective almost immediately, but she is almost polar opposite on offense. Even if her portal is still useful (maybe even more useful), the rest of her kit doesn't work very well.
"Inner peace is the void of expectation. It is the absence of our shared desperation to feel a certain way."

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,109
Re: Overwatch, Battleborn, and Paladins
« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2016, 10:45:26 pm »
Well, bought the game, still have $17 balance left, which considering this is Blizzard who has like, 1 and a half games in their store, is utterly useless (sigh).

Downloaded launcher.  Have to deal with their accursed sign-in about 5 times because the site cant handle that monumental task.

Get launcher installed.

Run launcher.

INSTANT crash. 

Gee, yet more Blizzard-level quality with the non-game stuff, AS ALWAYS.   Don't I JUST FREAKING LOVE THESE TWITS.

Again, fire, or bees, one of the two needs to be involved here.


I did eventually get the little nightmare to do it's job and start installing (after 3 more irritating log-ins), but I'm expecting the computer to go bonkers and leap out the window or something at any moment.  Because, you know, Blizzard.

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,109
Re: Overwatch, Battleborn, and Paladins
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2016, 03:06:21 am »
So, some thoughts on.... what the hell is up with my keyboard, it should be flashing and looking nuts... oh, the game is doing something to it, okay, what.  Let's just close that...

*ahem*

So, went through the tutorials, did a couple of matches.  Not all that many, my arm is a bit smashed up today so I really need to not go overboard with the mouse.

Took an instant liking to D.Va who is already my favorite, because CHAAAAAAAARGE, which is my natural tendancy in everything.  Also, big damn mech that doesn't really have to stop firing, unless it's charging, and who needs guns when doing that?.   Also liking Junkrat, who seems to be a walking explosion. 

First match was a defensive match.  Used D.Va.   Never switched, because the ONE time I died was to my own exploding mech (oops).  On the plus side, the opposing guys died too, because apparently the big glowing screaming ball of metal wasn't obvious enough before it went boom.  Other than that, just... killed everything, including Pharah when she was in the air doing her irritating missile thing, that was satisfying.   I figured that SOMETHING had to be wrong though, because how could *I* be managing this? I mean, seriously, most of the kills were my doing.   Surely there must be some massive balance problem or half the enemy team was asleep and/or dead at their keyboards.  The world shall never know.  But it was quite entertaining, I just rushed at anyone that came close, which is amusing.

Second game was an attacking match, different map.  I could tell that derp was about to happen when the match started with two players not having chosen a hero yet, and two others having picked Tracer (sigh).  Switched from D.Va to Junkrat, did badly for a time until I realized that I didn't have to actually shove his gun directly up the enemy's nose to hit them and could explode things from a distance.   But despite this and a really hilarious moment with his ultimate, the other team was still basically impenetrable.  No individual player seemed particularly unstoppable... I got into 1v1s with many of them from time to time (except Shield Guy, whose name I cant remember), did okay for my level.  It was still fun, but it gave me the constant feeling of "what, exactly, should I be doing in this situation?" which inevitably was followed by me running out of ideas and firing more grenades.  Which of course could get a kill or two, but kills don't win the game and they didn't push forward enough with everyone dying so much.  Had more than one occaision where I suddenly realized I was the only one still standing on the team (sigh).  Also realized that I didn't really know just what to do against Shield Guy, which led to simply firing directly at him a lot whenever Mei wasn't making a point of being irritating nearby.


Now, the good thing about the whole experience was that it was quite fun.  I didn't have any moments of insta-dying, and each character seems to have decent mobility and options at their disposal to do stuff.  In more of the "realistic" type of shooter, all I ever do is die over and over, but that didn't really happen here even in the second match when cosmic amounts of derp were going on.  Typically in a team game I tend to worry more about my own performance overall, rather then wether the game is a win or a loss (because sometimes, you just get a bad team, or a pre-made enemy team, which I'm quite aware of from time with other games).

The game controls wonderfully, there were no goofy technical issues, and I really like the characters, which is the huge difference for me between this and TF2.  TF2 I liked in CONCEPT.  But.... I never found any characters I liked playing as.  There was always something bizarrely stale about them, or just... I dunno, I never found any of them to be much FUN.  It's hard to explain, and I suspect a lot of people would think I'm a bit of a derp for not seeing the fun in that particular game.  But this one is already doing what TF2 didn't for me.


The bit about walking back from death.... yeah, that's a little irritating, though D.Va obviously gets around that.   But as I wasn't insta-dying so long as I didn't make a total moron of myself (by getting really close with Junkrat) I tended to last long enough to feel like I was DOING something, even if I didn't know WHAT I should be doing in that second match.  Next time I do an attacking match I'll use a more offensive character, probably Pharah who seems fun.   Maybe there wont be as much of the death-walk in that case, but no way to know.

Enemy ultimates... yeah, they could be irritating if I didn't have D.Va's shield available (which I generally did, in that first match).  Though at the same time I knew full well that my own ultimates were likely just as irritating to the other guys, so that works out well enough.   To some degree though, it seems to be tough to figure out what the heck to do about some of them.    For certain ones it's obvious (like the "high noon" thing, get behind something, that's all you really have to do).  For others, it doesn't seem too much like there'd be much of anything I could do without that shield.  I never found any of the enemy abilities though to ever feel unfair.  THOSE all seem fine.... so far.  Likely, I'm bound to find some to be more than a bit aggravating soon enough, but then, I don't entirely know what I'm doing yet.

I will say that Shield Guy seems a bit much... It almost seems like if a team DOESNT have him on it, they're at a disadvantage, because of just how crazy that shield of his is.  I personally don't really want to use him all that much.... needless to say, I'm a bit too impatient for a character that barely moves most of the time, which is very different from playing something like a pure support (which typically doesn't try my patience too much).   I noticed when watching people play the game on YouTube that Shield Guy seems to almost ALWAYS be around somewhere.  Maybe it's just me, but I think that says something might be off? 

There are some other quirks that seem like they might need fixing at some point... I am aware of D.Va's giant crit-box, for instance (really? Front and center on the mech?  Gee, what a difficult target...) and cant see how that ISNT an issue, despite how well I was doing when using her there.  I hear that gives her a lot of problems.   And some other issues with various characters.   But nothing seemed outright BROKEN among the characters.  Yet.  As the game JUST released, I'm expecting that wonkiness will continue for some time... that's fine.  Every game has this after release, wether it be multiplayer or otherwise.   I figure, if someone cant deal with that (and I know a couple of people that'd be seriously raging already just because of that) they shouldn't buy a game like this right away.

I will say that it seemed a little too easy to heal during that defensive match.  I didn't get all that low on HP much in that one, but aside from having Lucio's constant presence around (when enemies weren't too close), there was a large health pack REALLY close to the defensive point, where it'd take me like, one second to charge over, grab it, and come back.  Nobody else seemed interested in using it, so I kept taking it on the occaision when I hit half health.   Not that I have anything against the health pack mechanic at all.

So that's some initial thoughts... I'll probably ramble more about the game as I continue to play it more and experiment with various characters.  Though I already know there's certain characters I'll probably not really use at all (Widow). 


Right now though... time to play something a bit more calm, because pain.  Ugh.  I don't know what I did to set this off, but it freaking hurts. 


Offline Wingflier

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,753
  • To add me on Steam, click the little Steam icon ^
Re: Overwatch, Battleborn, and Paladins
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2016, 04:02:30 am »
The shield guy (Rhinehart) does seem to be hands down one of the best characters in the game, but he does have a few notable counters.

One of the most ironic counters is another Rhinehart. Since melee attacks go through the shield, the enemy Rhineheart can basically just beat on him with impunity, forcing him to lower his shield to react with his own melee attacks. Also, his fireball attack goes through shields. Also his charge goes through shields as well. In fact, everything he does basically goes through shields, which makes him an ideal counter to himself.

There are a few weapons in the game which go through shields as well. Winston's lightning gun goes right through it, making him an ideal counter as long as you keep your distance a little from his melee attacks. I'm pretty sure Symmetra's regular attack also goes through it. Mei is one of the best counters, she can freeze him solid at a range in only a few seconds, which disables his shield and makes him a setting duck for the entire enemy team. Pharah is a good counter because she can fly above him and just pelt him with an endless barrage of rockets that are difficult to block from above or behind you. Tracer is a good counter because she's so squirrely, she's impossible to catch so she just just stay behind him and kill him with impunity or throw her ult on him and kill him that way.

He has a lot of counters, but they're very specific and have to be done right. But that's the way all the most powerful heroes are in Overwatch. Any hero that seems broken (so far like Torjborn, Bastion, and Roadhog seem to be some of the most hard to deal with) usually has a direct counter, but a lot of the time your team has to know it, and work together to make it happen.

So far I haven't seen any hero that seems overpowered per say, I've just seen really cheesy heroes that are extremely easy to play. My last game I got 15 kills as Torjborn (Dwarf Engineer) by placing my turret in a good position, holding down the left mouse button, and ulting when necessary. I may have died once the entire match.

That isn't to say that the enemy team couldn't have countered me, but they would have to get through 5 other heroes first to do it, which is what makes it so difficult. It's not enough for one player to pick a counter, the whole team has to work together to make that counter effective. Meanwhile there's just me left clicking for 8 minutes while my turret blows everything away.

In other words, some heroes are a lot easier to play than they are to counter, but that's pretty much inevitable in these kinds of games. It's like that in any MOBA ever created as well. It's just something you have to accept, and also accept that certain characters are pub stompers.
"Inner peace is the void of expectation. It is the absence of our shared desperation to feel a certain way."

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,332
  • A Paladin Without A Crusade...
Re: Overwatch, Battleborn, and Paladins
« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2016, 11:23:09 am »
Well, bought the game, still have $17 balance left, which considering this is Blizzard who has like, 1 and a half games in their store, is utterly useless (sigh).

Downloaded launcher.  Have to deal with their accursed sign-in about 5 times because the site cant handle that monumental task.

Get launcher installed.

Run launcher.

INSTANT crash. 

Gee, yet more Blizzard-level quality with the non-game stuff, AS ALWAYS.   Don't I JUST FREAKING LOVE THESE TWITS.

Again, fire, or bees, one of the two needs to be involved here.


I did eventually get the little nightmare to do it's job and start installing (after 3 more irritating log-ins), but I'm expecting the computer to go bonkers and leap out the window or something at any moment.  Because, you know, Blizzard.

Hi, I'm going to be that guy who says "I have never experienced those problems with Battle.net". Now that that's happened, feel free to shoot me. :P.

All kidding aside, I have thoughts on the current state of Paladins as I've been playing it far more than I'm guessing everyone else here. I have no interest in Overwatch (and trust me, you guys aren't helping me want to want it more...). I'm going to share the thoughts I have on Paladins, I'm just in the middle of writing a review and settling into North Carolina so kinda blegh about writing that giant post atm. But I'll add them sooner or later.

There is one thing about Paladins that should be brought up: Card crafting now lets you select the card you want instead of randomly selected to you. (And there are three developer-made decks that players can choose for all heroes that they don't have to pay for.). I feel like it's really helped reduce the pay-to-win feel of Paladins significantly. And crafting decks is actually fun instead of a giant chore. So, positive steps in the right direction I feel.

The game is about to hit open beta in about a month or two according to hints dropped by Hi-Rez. If things continue how they've been going in the last several patches, I might be getting close to saying "yeah, you should try it out". Right now...the game has shifted dramatically over the past several months that they still may continue that trend and it can be difficult to deal with if you don't like change. So my current recommendation is to wait for the open beta. Unless you're crazy excited about Paladins because it has been improving a lot and they are focused on polish over major game features atm.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2016, 11:24:45 am by KingIsaacLinksr »
Casual reviewer with a sense of justice.
Visit the Arcen Mantis to help: https://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/
A Paladin's Blog. Long form videogame reviews focusing on mechanics and narrative analyzing. Plus other stuff. www.kingisaaclinksr.com

Offline Wingflier

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,753
  • To add me on Steam, click the little Steam icon ^
Re: Overwatch, Battleborn, and Paladins
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2016, 03:48:14 am »
I'll most likely try Paladins again when it enter open beta. Having had a chance to play Overwatch more deeply, I feel more confident about the differences between the two games. Don't get me wrong, they're very similar but there are some fundamental paradigm contrasts.

For one thing, in Overwatch you're pretty much expected to choose a new hero based on the map, the side of the map, what PART of the map, what your team has chosen, and to counter what they're doing. It's not uncommon to switch your character several times during a match just because you're reacting to what the enemy team is doing, and the map objective may favor one hero over another. This is something I don't particularly like about the game (I get attached to my favorite characters), but I simply accept it as part of the game design.

In Paladins it seems a lot more like you start a game with a hero, regardless of the map, and kind of stick with it the whole match. Now of course unlike in Overwatch, multiple people on each team can't use the same hero, but that's not so bad because at least you get to stick with the hero you chose. So that's one way in which Paladins fits my preferences a lot more.

Now I'm not sure how open beta is going to improve the game unless they do some major mechanic or polish overhaul. The game is practically already in open beta as it is. If you go to their website and simply follow their Youtube channel or like their FB page you get a key. So I mean that's a little more work than just creating an account...but not much really because you still have to make an account either way so it's just one extra step to be able to play. The biggest difference between the two games at this point is that Overwatch just feels a lot more fun to play, which is to be expected since it's been fully released, but still, the Paladins gameplay just feels hollow in comparison and I hope that's something they work on.
"Inner peace is the void of expectation. It is the absence of our shared desperation to feel a certain way."

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,109
Re: Overwatch, Battleborn, and Paladins
« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2016, 03:59:03 am »
So, I'd just like to say, MEI IS REALLY IRRITATING.  Here I thought Reihnhardt, which I probably spelled wrong, was going to be the most irritating thing ever, but... not really.   The characters I've been using have decent ways of dealing with him.  But Mei?  Uuuuugh.  I don't know if it's that she's a good counter for everyone I'm using, or if it's that she's a good counter to ME, but either is very.... irritating...

*cough*

In other news, a bunch more matches done, attacking objectives really goes much better if there's some actual damage-dealers on the team...  I ended up using McCree a bunch for that role.  I didn't expect to accomplish anything with him, but it kinda happened backwards in that I can hit stuff with him without much trouble (expected the opposite), but cant aim with Pharah worth a damn (who I guess is supposed to be easy to use?).  I'll keep trying, but using her, for me, mostly consists of falling over a lot.  D.Va and Junkrat are still by far the ones I'm doing best with though.   The only thing that bugs me with Junkrat is that it takes so damn long to walk back with him.... but he doesn't die easily with the ability to keep his distance, and those traps of his, which get more fun to use each time.   That mine of his hits like a truck.  Actually, everything he does hits like a truck.  And D.Va just seems to get really close to most opponents with so little trouble; those guns of hers, not so good at long range, but they sure kill up close.  Defense Matrix to get REALLY close before firing seems like a good idea.  Sure kept Reaper out of my hair, he kept appearing in today's matches over... and over.... and over... that ultimate of his really is tough to deal with!  He looks like fun, I might try him later.   Only thing that bugs me with D.Va is that it's very difficult to get her mech's ultimate charged.  I could swear it keeps resetting every time her mech breaks.  Granted I know the ultimate outright switches to the other one when that happens, but I keep expecting to get back into the mech and find that the normal one retained it's charge.   I don't die much with her, but of course having the mech shatter happens decently often.   Fortunately it's not too hard to get it back.

I'm liking the maps a lot too... these seem pretty well designed to me.  I don't really have any complaints about any of them.  My only issue is that I have no idea where the health packs are yet, for the most part.

Did I mention Mei is irritating?



Also to agree with something you said, Wingflier, I also tend to not like having to switch heroes too often.  Sure, there's plenty of different ones that I'm enjoying, but I'm so used to fighting games:  You pick ONE character, and you tend to play as them over and over for quite some time, and as I'm extremely obsessive by nature (goes with the damn autism) I get attached to things easily.  There are of course fighters where you CAN switch characters mid-match (most famous example being Marvel VS Capcom) but those games typically put said characters in groups of 3 and when you switch them is up to the player's individual tactics; I know what many would say but there's no true right or wrong time to switch in games like that.   But in this, there definitely is.  I am trying to keep that in mind as I play, but... old habits die hard.   I switched more than I did last night though. 

The good thing though is that the game doesn't seem to try too hard to FORCE players into specific characters.  Like, I don't HAVE to at any point play as, say, Mercy if for whatever reason I decide I don't really want to.  There's others to pick from that can do a similar job.   Certainly applies with the tanks, I like tanky characters but I don't want to play while wielding the Shield of Slow. 

Offline Draco18s

  • Resident Velociraptor
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,251
Re: Overwatch, Battleborn, and Paladins
« Reply #37 on: May 31, 2016, 12:19:30 am »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13iMO9s-q0c

I get it. I finally get it. This is why I have trouble with the faster-paced combat systems used by games like Natural Selection 2 where nearly ever kill is an instant-kill. The perceived challenge is higher than my perceived skill.  These games can't keep me in the Flow.

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,109
Re: Overwatch, Battleborn, and Paladins
« Reply #38 on: May 31, 2016, 01:05:00 am »
Hm, that was a really interesting video.

I liked the bit about rhythm, too.  I think that's why a lot of games like CS: GO just kill my interest (and none do it faster than that one).  Whenever I see that game being played, and some guy gets shot, they seem to go down in an INSTANT.  And between those exceedingly brief engagements.... there's really exaggerated periods of nothing actually happening.  It's even worse if the person playing goes down, because again that happens instantly, and then there's a MUCH longer period of nothing occurring.   I know this seems to somehow appeal to many players, though I'll never understand why.  In most games I need that constant rhythm going in order for my extremely limited attention to be held.

I think that's why Overwatch grabbed me.  Fights in that are not over in an instant, definitely not.   Engagements can be very long, and the period between engagements is NOT that long, yet you typically feel like you have JUST enough time to, for example, switch positions in anticipation of the next attack, or run off and grab health.  Stuff like that. 

Older FPS games tended to be like that as well.  Fights lasted awhile and typically involved a great many targets, some of which would have huge amounts of HP.  Between engagements, your time was typically spent trying to find more STUFF to prepare for future attacks, which could come at any moment; well designed maps for those games tended to keep this fairly even (except for players that are extremely methodical in exploration).


It's interesting too, to think of some of these things in the context of other genres.  In my case, the bullet-hell genre, mostly.  That perceived skill VS perceived challenge is particularly interesting there.  I think this is part of why developers like Cave, for example, or even someone like myself, will tend to make sure the screen is stuffed with seemingly deadly threats... even when the difficulty is actually fairly low.  Starward's fight with Mirror on Normal difficulty, for instance.  It's an easy boss, but the beams it generates serve to lock the player into what appears to be small locations; perceived threat goes up.  Stuff is then fired into those locations.  Seems dangerous as heck but in reality there's a lot of space to move around in (most of the time, damn thing isn't perfect), and it's not hard to dodge all of that, particularly with the slower nature of the bullets VS your small hitbox.  And the fact that the screen overall, including the areas not around the player, is stuffed with glowing doom just increases that.  I've watched some players do that very fight, panic like crazy because OMG here's a bazillion things flying at them, but then they finish the boss while getting hit like, once, and seem pretty excited about that.

As opposed to older more traditional shmups that had the tendancy to fire like, half a bullet directly at you every 20 minutes or so.  They just never seemed all that tough, even when they were.  Getting hit in those games tended to give a feeling like "What?  How did I get hit by that stupid thing?  There was hardly even anything there, just a couple of walls and 2 enemies, I got hit anyway!  I must really suck at this!".  The exception was stuff like shmups made by Psikyo, which didn't have that many bullets around at once but tended to just WHIP them at the player at the speed of sound.  Perceived difficulty was outright ridiculous.  ACTUAL difficulty was kinda low; the games they make tend to be based on simply memorizing patterns, as basically every enemy and boss in their games can easily be beaten by simple memorization.   Too much of a gulf there.



Really, some fascinating concepts here.  A lot of these sorts of things could make for some really interesting conversation, too.

Offline Wingflier

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,753
  • To add me on Steam, click the little Steam icon ^
Re: Overwatch, Battleborn, and Paladins
« Reply #39 on: May 31, 2016, 04:39:40 am »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13iMO9s-q0c

I get it. I finally get it. This is why I have trouble with the faster-paced combat systems used by games like Natural Selection 2 where nearly ever kill is an instant-kill. The perceived challenge is higher than my perceived skill.  These games can't keep me in the Flow.
It's interesting that you use Natural Selection 2, a game in which there are superunits like Onos and Mechs, whose sole purpose is to tank ridiculous amounts of damage, and even with a whole team firing at them would take an ungodly amount of time to kill.

Sure, the Skulks can die pretty fast, as can the unarmored marines, but this dynamic tends to change very quickly as the game progresses. Hell, the Gorge costs almost nothing to morph into, has 3x as much health as a Skulk, and can heal itself as well as placing turrets, traps, and barriers all over the map. If you're dying instantly as this lifeform you're doing something wrong.

Which isn't to say that the instagib mechanic isn't part of NS2, but the game itself runs the gamut between high-risk, high-reward playstyles, and defensive or even offensive options to increase survivability significantly. Hell, the Fade has a ton of health compared to a Marine, can teleport around the map and can even heal itself out of combat. Add this to the fact that it's an RTS/FPS hybrid and you have a game unlike any other in the entire world.

I would have expected you to say something like CS:GO, Unreal Tournament or the Battlefield series. Now those are games in which you're pretty much stuck with instagib; you as a player have no other option available to you.
"Inner peace is the void of expectation. It is the absence of our shared desperation to feel a certain way."

Offline Mánagarmr

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,272
  • if (isInRange(target)) { kill(target); }
Re: Overwatch, Battleborn, and Paladins
« Reply #40 on: May 31, 2016, 08:43:52 am »
I really wish I got more into NS2 before it became a crapridden elitefest.
Click here to get started with Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports.

Thank you for contributing to making the game better!

Offline Wingflier

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,753
  • To add me on Steam, click the little Steam icon ^
Re: Overwatch, Battleborn, and Paladins
« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2016, 11:15:27 am »
Errrr, I don't know if you've tried it lately but it's not like that anymore. Trust me, I've stuck with it since it was first announced back in like 2010.

The recent changes make newbie servers extremely friendly to new players and it's extremely quick to get into a game. For the first time in the over 3 years its been released, I would recommend it to my friends.

I wrote up a post about it in their forums if you want to check it out. It's incredible to see a company stick with a game like that for so long, even after it's been bombing sales since the very beginning.

An excerpt:

Quote
Unfortunately, even these problems were overshadowed by an even bigger fundamental flaw: The game lacked matchmaking and/or any kind of meaningful team balancing mechanic. This meant that even if you looked past all of the engine and design (and arguably balance difficulties as well), the game was still extremely frustrating to play. It was not fun when 90% of games were just an uneven stomp one way or another. Sadly, even the Reinforcement program only served to reinforce this (pun intended). Because now, all the people spending money on the special supporter icons were stacking on the same team together, and all the new players were getting crushed by people who had spent hundreds or thousands of hours on the game. It was almost as if the reinforcement icons made it easier to turn the games into an unbalanced mess.

UWE eventually added a matchmaking feature but by then it was too late because the player population was too low to concurrently support it and/or keep it active.

At every turn, it seemed like UWE was hitting wall after wall. People complained about the engine, the FPS drops, the technical difficulties, the balance problems, the low population, the horribly uneven games, the struggling competitive scene, how the first game was so much better, and god knows what else and yet amazingly UWE never gave up. In fact they created a new game on the same engine just to continue financing NS2 and to keep it alive where ANY other developer would have given up on this sinking ship a long time ago. Hardly anybody appreciates it.

I'll be honest guys, I didn't expect this game to make it this far. By this point, I would have expected NS2 to be abandonware, not only because of the difficulty both maintaining the game and generating profit for it, but also the way in which the community finds to complain about the most inane things imaginable.
"Inner peace is the void of expectation. It is the absence of our shared desperation to feel a certain way."

Offline Draco18s

  • Resident Velociraptor
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,251
Re: Overwatch, Battleborn, and Paladins
« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2016, 11:28:52 am »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13iMO9s-q0c

I get it. I finally get it. This is why I have trouble with the faster-paced combat systems used by games like Natural Selection 2 where nearly ever kill is an instant-kill. The perceived challenge is higher than my perceived skill.  These games can't keep me in the Flow.
It's interesting that you use Natural Selection 2, a game in which there are superunits like Onos and Mechs, whose sole purpose is to tank ridiculous amounts of damage, and even with a whole team firing at them would take an ungodly amount of time to kill.

Requires an insane amount of the "permanent resource" I mentioned, so it is not something you can do often.  Which, if you're playing as an alien, you are playing as a skulk until you manage to not suck enough to actually HAVE any resources.  Skulk is also THE hardest alien class to play well.

Follow that up with the fat one that is supposed to be more defensive (gorge): I never figured out how to use ANY of its abilities.  The game refused to tell me and none of the buttons I pressed did anything.  And then a random marine came along and killed me (mind, I was practically still in my spawn area) because I was too busy trying to look at a god damn menu to figure out what the buttons were.  Still couldn't and then I didn't have enough evo points to respawn as a gorge again.

I would have expected you to say something like CS:GO, Unreal Tournament or the Battlefield series. Now those are games in which you're pretty much stuck with instagib; you as a player have no other option available to you.

I've never played any of those.  And good thing, too.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2016, 11:32:58 am by Draco18s »

Offline Mánagarmr

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,272
  • if (isInRange(target)) { kill(target); }
Re: Overwatch, Battleborn, and Paladins
« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2016, 01:41:42 pm »
Huh, okay. That's interesting. Last time I tried to get into it you got yelled at for existing. It was even worse than trying to play a MOBA. It was hilarious and terrifying at the same time.
Click here to get started with Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports.

Thank you for contributing to making the game better!

Offline Wingflier

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,753
  • To add me on Steam, click the little Steam icon ^
Re: Overwatch, Battleborn, and Paladins
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2016, 03:36:04 pm »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13iMO9s-q0c

I get it. I finally get it. This is why I have trouble with the faster-paced combat systems used by games like Natural Selection 2 where nearly ever kill is an instant-kill. The perceived challenge is higher than my perceived skill.  These games can't keep me in the Flow.
It's interesting that you use Natural Selection 2, a game in which there are superunits like Onos and Mechs, whose sole purpose is to tank ridiculous amounts of damage, and even with a whole team firing at them would take an ungodly amount of time to kill.

Requires an insane amount of the "permanent resource" I mentioned, so it is not something you can do often.  Which, if you're playing as an alien, you are playing as a skulk until you manage to not suck enough to actually HAVE any resources.  Skulk is also THE hardest alien class to play well.

Follow that up with the fat one that is supposed to be more defensive (gorge): I never figured out how to use ANY of its abilities.  The game refused to tell me and none of the buttons I pressed did anything.  And then a random marine came along and killed me (mind, I was practically still in my spawn area) because I was too busy trying to look at a god damn menu to figure out what the buttons were.  Still couldn't and then I didn't have enough evo points to respawn as a gorge again.
From what I've heard the tutorial system has been completely revamped so it should be a lot easier to understand details like that than before.

And actually, player resources in NS2 are not based on personal performance. Everyone gets a split of the team's total income. Lerk is probably harder to play than Skulk, I never got a hang of the flying.
"Inner peace is the void of expectation. It is the absence of our shared desperation to feel a certain way."