Author Topic: (off-topic) DRM again  (Read 12124 times)

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,332
  • A Paladin Without A Crusade...
Re: (off-topic) DRM again
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2011, 10:52:30 pm »
Sorry, I realize that this is an old topic, but I wanted to chime in because I feel like a lot of people have been complaining about this issue lately. While I understand the frustration for gamers of material that has a heavy DRM procedure with it, I understand the company's motives even more. They're protecting their games from copyright and trademark infringement. With all of the piracy that has come with the digital age, we should be more forgiving with the companies on issues like this. That's just my two cents!

Sorry, I cannot forgive a company with heavy DRM, or any DRM for that matter.  I will ONLY excuse DRM when it is no longer invasive and no longer hurts paying customers.  Which btw, DRM really only affects paying customers.  Hackers and pirates break it in days, maybe weeks of the game's first release.  They get a game they can do whatever they want to it.  We get a game that can only be installed on X amount of machines.  Really makes paying $60 for that game feel soooooooo good doesn't it?

King
Casual reviewer with a sense of justice.
Visit the Arcen Mantis to help: https://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/
A Paladin's Blog. Long form videogame reviews focusing on mechanics and narrative analyzing. Plus other stuff. www.kingisaaclinksr.com

Offline vordrax

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
Re: (off-topic) DRM again
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2011, 11:11:54 pm »
Sorry, I realize that this is an old topic, but I wanted to chime in because I feel like a lot of people have been complaining about this issue lately. While I understand the frustration for gamers of material that has a heavy DRM procedure with it, I understand the company's motives even more. They're protecting their games from copyright and trademark infringement. With all of the piracy that has come with the digital age, we should be more forgiving with the companies on issues like this. That's just my two cents!

Just to clarify the issue, DRM does not exist to protect against piracy. There is only one form of DRM that has any effect on piracy, and that is account-based service (subscription or no) and that is not completely failsafe. DRM exists to prevent users from re-selling their products, either through licensed resellers (i.e. Gamestop) or through other media. Not that I mind the not-selling part, specifically- but if they're going to force DRM down my throat, I'd rather it be DRM that actually serves a useful purpose, like Steam.

Offline zespri

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,109
Re: (off-topic) DRM again
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2011, 12:23:15 am »
I think this wrong. Fighting piracy is one of the goals of DRM if not the main. DRM is not very good at this, true, but companies thing that this is better than nothing.

Offline Mánagarmr

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,272
  • if (isInRange(target)) { kill(target); }
Re: (off-topic) DRM again
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2011, 12:59:12 am »
I think this wrong. Fighting piracy is one of the goals of DRM if not the main. DRM is not very good at this, true, but companies thing that this is better than nothing.
Or maybe that is what they want you to believe?
Click here to get started with Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports.

Thank you for contributing to making the game better!

Offline zespri

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,109
Re: (off-topic) DRM again
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2011, 01:30:33 am »
I think this wrong. Fighting piracy is one of the goals of DRM if not the main. DRM is not very good at this, true, but companies thing that this is better than nothing.
Or maybe that is what they want you to believe?
Huh? And the point is?

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,332
  • A Paladin Without A Crusade...
Re: (off-topic) DRM again
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2011, 02:53:13 am »
I think this wrong. Fighting piracy is one of the goals of DRM if not the main. DRM is not very good at this, true, but companies thing that this is better than nothing.
Or maybe that is what they want you to believe?
Huh? And the point is?

He's saying that companies want you to believe they are fighting the good fight against piracy, when in actuality their reasons (MAYBE) are for what was stated above, to control their product and make sure you pay lots of $$ for it. 

King
Casual reviewer with a sense of justice.
Visit the Arcen Mantis to help: https://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/
A Paladin's Blog. Long form videogame reviews focusing on mechanics and narrative analyzing. Plus other stuff. www.kingisaaclinksr.com

Offline zespri

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,109
Re: (off-topic) DRM again
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2011, 03:29:43 am »
He's saying that companies want you to believe they are fighting the good fight against piracy, when in actuality their reasons (MAYBE) are for what was stated above, to control their product and make sure you pay lots of $$ for it. 

The ultimate goal is to make more money. This is what any business is about, this is no news. So I hardly see how it can matter for them if I (or you) think they are fighting piracy or fighting second hand sales. In both cases the goal is to make more money and in both cases legitimate consumer suffers.

Offline Cyborg

  • Master Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,957
Re: (off-topic) DRM again
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2011, 08:23:05 am »
I resent the idea of not being able to do secondhand sales. Could you apply that same idea to tangible goods?
Kahuna strategy guide:
http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,13369.0.html

Suggestions, bugs? Don't be lazy, give back:
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/

Planetcracker. Believe it.

The stigma of hunger. http://wayw.re/Vi12BK

Offline BobTheJanitor

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,689
Re: (off-topic) DRM again
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2011, 11:47:53 am »
I resent the idea of not being able to do secondhand sales. Could you apply that same idea to tangible goods?

It's a debate worth having. Sure, when you buy a physical item that's not a consumable, you can resell it, and that person can resell it and on and on until it falls apart from use. An intangible like a game, song, book, anything that exists primarily as information and can be easily transferred to a digital medium is a much darker thicket to wade in to. I bought the game, I have full rights to it, I can resell it as much as I want, right? That makes sense. But a game is sort of a consumable that doesn't get consumed with use. I eat an apple, I've enjoyed it, now it's gone. There's not a big market for apple cores. But if I play through a game entirely, I've enjoyed it, and for me it's basically gone. (For some games at least, obviously some games can be played almost forever, but those games you wouldn't want to resell anyway. Unless you got bored with them. Anyway, I'm trying to keep this example from getting hideously convoluted)

Once I've experienced all the content, I'm done with it. But I can then turn around and resell that game to someone else. Unlike a physical good, it will never degrade over time because it consists of digital information. So given enough time, I could resell that game to thousands of people, while the original hard working developer has only made one single sale, and is now dining in a homeless shelter.

So I can kind of see both sides of the story here, and I'm not sure which way I really fall on it. Although I'm perfectly content buying games on Steam, which allows no resales.

Offline vordrax

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
Re: (off-topic) DRM again
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2011, 12:08:02 pm »
I resent the idea of not being able to do secondhand sales. Could you apply that same idea to tangible goods?


I've always considered it this way: if you were to actually purchase the software in such a way that it was intended to be resold, you would have to possess the source code and the other components, such as art, music, et cetera. This would cost significantly more than the nominal $50 (or now, $60) to purchase just the license. As has been seen many times over, used game sales hurt developers and publishers more than piracy. Many pirates buy good games after stealing them to support the company, and those that won't spend the money (whether because they don't have it, or because they are leeches) wouldn't have spent it anyways. But when you purchase a used game, it tells the developers, "I was willing to spend money on your game, sorry you didn't get any of it."

As a comparison, look at movies. Movies have phases of profit, starting with the theater phase, which isn't subject to resale. Then they enter DVD phase, and the prices tend to be easier to swallow than video game prices anyways, so the incentive to buy used isn't as great. This comes with rentals as well, which PC games are not subject to (though GameTap was an awesome idea.) Movies don't also age in the same way that games do- aside from a few collector's items, video games lose their profitability much faster (I wish I could cite something here, and if someone finds anything to the contrary, please post- it is just a trend that I've noticed.)

Offline Hearteater

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,334
Re: (off-topic) DRM again
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2011, 12:18:18 pm »
I have no problems if a company doesn't want their product to be resold.  If that is the case I know that before I buy it, and if I don't like that "feature" I won't buy it.  The more companies that do stupid stuff the more attractive indie games are.  Game companies are going to paint themselves into a corner with intrusive "features" that are basically malware as newer game development tools push indie devs closer and closer to putting out AAA-competitive titles.

But I do have a problem with DRM that screws up my computer or damages my gameplay.  Let me give you an example: I was playing SC2 on the 2nd or 3rd mission.  I have a brief power flicker which drops my modem, killing my network connection.  I'm on UPS so my game is unaffected and it was so fast I barely noticed it.  But losing network connection for less than a minute caused me to not get credit for beating that mission (achievement-wise).  So I replayed it.  Still did not get credit.  Turns out I needed to log out and back in to SC2.  So I played the mission a 3rd time.  That is not ok by me.

Offline Cyborg

  • Master Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,957
Re: (off-topic) DRM again
« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2011, 12:55:58 pm »
  I have a brief power flicker which drops my modem, killing my network connection.  I'm on UPS so my game is unaffected and it was so fast I barely noticed it.  But losing network connection for less than a minute caused me to not get credit for beating that mission (achievement-wise).  So I replayed it.  Still did not get credit.  Turns out I needed to log out and back in to SC2.  So I played the mission a 3rd time.  That is not ok by me.

All good points.

I use a UPS on my router and switch.
Kahuna strategy guide:
http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,13369.0.html

Suggestions, bugs? Don't be lazy, give back:
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/

Planetcracker. Believe it.

The stigma of hunger. http://wayw.re/Vi12BK

Offline Frantz22

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: (off-topic) DRM again
« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2011, 01:24:35 pm »
I have no problems if a company doesn't want their product to be resold.  If that is the case I know that before I buy it, and if I don't like that "feature" I won't buy it.  The more companies that do stupid stuff the more attractive indie games are.  Game companies are going to paint themselves into a corner with intrusive "features" that are basically malware as newer game development tools push indie devs closer and closer to putting out AAA-competitive titles.

But I do have a problem with DRM that screws up my computer or damages my gameplay.  Let me give you an example: I was playing SC2 on the 2nd or 3rd mission.  I have a brief power flicker which drops my modem, killing my network connection.  I'm on UPS so my game is unaffected and it was so fast I barely noticed it.  But losing network connection for less than a minute caused me to not get credit for beating that mission (achievement-wise).  So I replayed it.  Still did not get credit.  Turns out I needed to log out and back in to SC2.  So I played the mission a 3rd time.  That is not ok by me.

It sounds like you should be blaming your energy supplier for not getting credit for your mission, not Blizzard and their DRM. The thing is, you KNOW what kind of protection these companies have on their games. They aren't hiding anything about it. They're not being secretive. You choose to buy the game that has a heavy DRM protection. If you don't want to deal with it, then don't play the game. You might have to go through an activation process that you don't like or have a constant internet connection, but you're still going to get to play your game.

Offline chemical_art

  • Core Member Mark IV
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,952
  • Fabulous
Re: (off-topic) DRM again
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2011, 02:17:41 pm »
I have no problems if a company doesn't want their product to be resold.  If that is the case I know that before I buy it, and if I don't like that "feature" I won't buy it.  The more companies that do stupid stuff the more attractive indie games are.  Game companies are going to paint themselves into a corner with intrusive "features" that are basically malware as newer game development tools push indie devs closer and closer to putting out AAA-competitive titles.

But I do have a problem with DRM that screws up my computer or damages my gameplay.  Let me give you an example: I was playing SC2 on the 2nd or 3rd mission.  I have a brief power flicker which drops my modem, killing my network connection.  I'm on UPS so my game is unaffected and it was so fast I barely noticed it.  But losing network connection for less than a minute caused me to not get credit for beating that mission (achievement-wise).  So I replayed it.  Still did not get credit.  Turns out I needed to log out and back in to SC2.  So I played the mission a 3rd time.  That is not ok by me.

It sounds like you should be blaming your energy supplier for not getting credit for your mission, not Blizzard and their DRM. The thing is, you KNOW what kind of protection these companies have on their games. They aren't hiding anything about it. They're not being secretive. You choose to buy the game that has a heavy DRM protection. If you don't want to deal with it, then don't play the game. You might have to go through an activation process that you don't like or have a constant internet connection, but you're still going to get to play your game.

That's all fine and dandy, except it drives potential customoers away. When a purchased game is more of a hassle to play then a pirated versions there is a serious problem.

Take movies. With a bought copy you can spend minutes going through ad after ad after warning after warning, much of which is unskippable. A pirated DVD in contrast just shows the movie. Which is more convenient?

Some games I hear still require CD's to play. How annoying is that? A pirated exe in contrast lets a no-cd option, but at that point it is just as illegal as stealing the whole game.

All the companies I see that are honest about DRM are the ones who don't use it. Companies that use DRM do not describe how invasive it is on your computer, for example. I do not see them advertise an internet connection is required, either.
I wonder when someone if/when SC2 will be cracked to allow offline achievements.
Life is short. Have fun.

Offline Frantz22

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: (off-topic) DRM again
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2011, 02:38:19 pm »
I have no problems if a company doesn't want their product to be resold.  If that is the case I know that before I buy it, and if I don't like that "feature" I won't buy it.  The more companies that do stupid stuff the more attractive indie games are.  Game companies are going to paint themselves into a corner with intrusive "features" that are basically malware as newer game development tools push indie devs closer and closer to putting out AAA-competitive titles.

But I do have a problem with DRM that screws up my computer or damages my gameplay.  Let me give you an example: I was playing SC2 on the 2nd or 3rd mission.  I have a brief power flicker which drops my modem, killing my network connection.  I'm on UPS so my game is unaffected and it was so fast I barely noticed it.  But losing network connection for less than a minute caused me to not get credit for beating that mission (achievement-wise).  So I replayed it.  Still did not get credit.  Turns out I needed to log out and back in to SC2.  So I played the mission a 3rd time.  That is not ok by me.

It sounds like you should be blaming your energy supplier for not getting credit for your mission, not Blizzard and their DRM. The thing is, you KNOW what kind of protection these companies have on their games. They aren't hiding anything about it. They're not being secretive. You choose to buy the game that has a heavy DRM protection. If you don't want to deal with it, then don't play the game. You might have to go through an activation process that you don't like or have a constant internet connection, but you're still going to get to play your game.

That's all fine and dandy, except it drives potential customoers away. When a purchased game is more of a hassle to play then a pirated versions there is a serious problem.

Take movies. With a bought copy you can spend minutes going through ad after ad after warning after warning, much of which is unskippable. A pirated DVD in contrast just shows the movie. Which is more convenient?

Some games I hear still require CD's to play. How annoying is that? A pirated exe in contrast lets a no-cd option, but at that point it is just as illegal as stealing the whole game.

All the companies I see that are honest about DRM are the ones who don't use it. Companies that use DRM do not describe how invasive it is on your computer, for example. I do not see them advertise an internet connection is required, either.
I wonder when someone if/when SC2 will be cracked to allow offline achievements.

What potential customers is it driving away? If we're still using SC2 as an example, have you seen the sales numbers for this game? Blizzard games are definitely not struggling for sales. Many companies that have heavy DRM protection aren't struggling. If it scared that many potential customers away, I would think that they would find a different solution. I don't think that I'm going to convince anyone here who believes that heavy DRM is wrong otherwise. This discussion could go on forever, but I don't think any of our minds are going to be changed on this topic.  :) Yes, I agree that heavy DRM protection is a pain in the butt, but it's unfortunately the game creator's decision, not ours...