My thoughts on playing to win

[Wingflier]

I think the form of elitism LaughingThesaurus is talking about goes beyond simply saying "XYZ is better than everything else in its class", to "XYZ is better than everything else in its class, and if you don't think so then I am better than you".  The former is easily accepted as a common (though not universal) consequence of actually caring about a subject, but the latter is often repulsive.

To me those two examples are one in the same.

If you think your point of view is better than somebody else's, then by definition, you think you're better than that person in some way.

You don't have to be an ass about it.  For example in our debates I think I'm right, but I try not to make you feel like I'm better than you, and you seem to do the same; but how can we not feel that we're better?  We believe ourselves to be wiser than the other person, how is that not to be taken as a sign of superiority?

In other words, I think anytime someone thinks their view is better than someone else's (Elitism), they think they are better than them.  Some people are just more vocal about it than others

A gamer might come out and say, "You suck at games and you should feel bad" while a religious person might say, "I'll pray for you", which roughly translates to, "Have fun burning in hell if you don't convert".

Personally I respect the people that say how they feel to my face more than the indirect Elitism.

[zebramatt]

There's nothing wrong with someone thinking differently from me, except when I think they're wrong.

[keith.lamothe]

If you think your point of view is better than somebody else's, then by definition, you think you're better than that person in some way.

I rather disagree, I think it has more to do with one's explanation for why one came to the right conclusion and the other did not (it may not involve "because I am better than you").  But I don't expect to convince you of that

[Mánagarmr]

Am I wierd for not knowing who Sirlin or Rand is?

[keith.lamothe]

Am I wierd for not knowing who Sirlin or Rand is?

No, but we're better than you because we know.

(joking )

[RCIX]

This brings us to point 3 from way back ("there are more things to life than winning"). A lot of people get rubbed the wrong way by this stuff because they think I want to apply "playing to win" to everyone. I don't. It's not that I think everyone should or would want to be on that peak. There are other peaks in life, probably better ones. But those who are stuck in the chasm really should know their positions and how to reach a happier place.

Thanks for all the responses.

If that isn't one huge contradiction, I don't know what. Rambling on about how all the true competitors are on their way to a majestic sparkling peak of pure fun-ness and everyone else is stuck in a dark chasm of scrubdom at the base of the mountain in one paragraph and trying to bail out of it by saying "it's okay if you don't want to climb out of your dark pit your poor scrub" in the next just makes you look more like a jerk. =/

I don't think you understand what he's trying to say.

Maybe I don't. Can you back up/explain his position that playing to win at all costs is objectively more fun than any other way to play?

I'm not as passionate about video games as I am about the one I love, but when somebody compares League of Legends to DotA, it makes me cringe.  To me, it's like the aforementioned blasphemies of comparing an amateur painting to the Mona Lisa, or Justin Bieber to Mozart.  In your untrained and inexperienced mind, you may not be able to see the small but important distinctions; but I can, and the comparison itself is insulting.

Maybe it's just that I don't get the "snob"s view; I like (a few of) Justin Beiber's songs (oh god please don't hurt me), and I also like classical music. I like cheesy spy shows and various more refined movies and series. I eat at McDonalds and like the food but have had a dinner at a 3 star restaurant. Etc.

[keith.lamothe]

I like (a few of) Justin Beiber's songs

Off with his head!

[Wingflier]

Maybe I don't. Can you back up/explain his position that playing to win at all costs is objectively more fun than any other way to play?

I don't think he ever said it was objectively more fun.  The entire article reflects his own opinion.  You're free to agree or disagree with it, I didn't see any death threats for disagreeing with his article, which is better than a lot of Elitist belief systems I could mention.

Maybe it's just that I don't get the "snob"s view; I like (a few of) Justin Beiber's songs (oh god please don't hurt me), and I also like classical music. I like cheesy spy shows and various more refined movies and series. I eat at McDonalds and like the food but have had a dinner at a 3 star restaurant. Etc.

Maybe you're not passionate about anything; some people aren't.  If you've never had anything or anyone in your life that you're completely passionate about, to the point that when people insult your beliefs (whether directly or indirectly), you get pissed off, then you couldn't possibly understand Sirlin's opinion.

You couldn't possibly understand why a professor with a Doctorate in the Musical Arts, who had spent over 10,000 hours studying and composing beautiful music, would be insulted when you compared Justin Bieber to Beethoven.  Or why somebody who had devoted their entire life to a certain religious belief, and a specific God, would be insulted when you compare their God to the God of another religion, as if they are equals.

If you don't understand, you don't understand.  There's no way to explain it to you.

This is why I said before:  The biggest problem is that casual gamers can't understand hardcore gamers and vice versa.

[RCIX]

Maybe I don't. Can you back up/explain his position that playing to win at all costs is objectively more fun than any other way to play?

I don't think he ever said it was objectively more fun.  The entire article reflects his own opinion.  You're free to agree or disagree with it, I didn't see any death threats for disagreeing with his article, which is better than a lot of Elitist belief systems I could mention.

That paragraph with the mountain is a very long winded way of saying that PTW at all costs is objectively better than playing for fun.

Maybe it's just that I don't get the "snob"s view; I like (a few of) Justin Beiber's songs (oh god please don't hurt me), and I also like classical music. I like cheesy spy shows and various more refined movies and series. I eat at McDonalds and like the food but have had a dinner at a 3 star restaurant. Etc.

Maybe you're not passionate about anything; some people aren't.  If you've never had anything or anyone in your life that you're completely passionate about, to the point that when people insult your beliefs (whether directly or indirectly), you get pissed off, then you couldn't possibly understand Sirlin's opinion.

You couldn't possibly understand why a professor with a Doctorate in the Musical Arts, who had spent over 10,000 hours studying and composing beautiful music, would be insulted when you compared Justin Bieber to Beethoven.  Or why somebody who had devoted their entire life to a certain religious belief, and a specific God, would be insulted when you compare their God to the God of another religion, as if they are equals.

If you don't understand, you don't understand.  There's no way to explain it to you.

This is why I said before:  The biggest problem is that casual gamers can't understand hardcore gamers and vice versa.

If by "passionate" you mean willing to rage over anyone that dares to "insult my craft" by comparing the "drivel for the masses" to the "true works of art", then no I'm not passionate. If, on the other hand, you mean that I absolutely love everything about something and want to share that thing with as many people as I can, then yes there are several things I'm passionate about.

Why can't we, be friends...

To insult another class of people, I don't think the Mona Lisa is that great. Sure, it was an impressive technical and artistic achievement of it's time, but now? To me? It looks like some portrait of a random woman painted in yellows, grays, drab greens, and browns. It's more valuable for the fact that it's 500 year old and who made it than because of it's quality.

[Wingflier]

To insult another class of people, I don't think the Mona Lisa is that great. Sure, it was an impressive technical and artistic achievement of it's time, but now? To me? It looks like some portrait of a random woman painted in yellows, grays, drab greens, and browns. It's more valuable for the fact that it's 500 year old and who made it than because of it's quality.

Okay RCIX, you're showing your inability to comprehend this concept once again.

Elitism is a form of ignorance which even I'm guilty of.  But being opinionated and vocal about something which you know nothing about is an equally bad form of ignorance.

Would you go into an Operating Room during open heart surgery and start giving the doctor your opinion about how to perform the procedure?  Would you tell a woman, pregnant with a child from a man who has a cuddly hugged  her what to do with her body?

No.  Because you have no idea what you're talking about.  You don't have the same knowledge and experience these people do to make their decisions.  Your opinions count for nothing, they are ignorant.

The same goes for the Mona Lisa.  If every great artist (or the vast majority of great artists) agree that it's a beautiful painting, and you know very little about art, maybe it's best that you conclude you don't understand enough about Artistry to make an informed decision on that topic.  Now if you one day become a great artist yourself, you're free to make judgements of course; but assuming that you're not, why do you feel that you have the knowledge to comment on this issue?  If you're a Creationist, who knows very little about Biology and Science, vocally opposing an issue that the majority of the vastly more educated Scientific Community already accepts, then maybe it's time to realize that you have no idea what you're talking about.

That paragraph with the mountain is a very long winded way of saying that PTW at all costs is objectively better than playing for fun.

Imagine a majestic mountain nirvana of gaming. At its peak are fulfillment, "fun", and even transcendence. Most people could care less about this mountain peak, because they have other life issues that are more important to them, and other peaks to pursue.

In Sirlin's opinion, playing to win at all costs is the majestic peak of gaming.  It is the transcendent experience that you can't get in any other way.  However, he's not saying it's the ONLY place you can get this experience.

RCIX, if you have never pushed yourself before, if you have never experienced the pure nirvana of being completely connected with your character, being in-tune with the game, countering and parrying everything your opponent throws at you, while deep in your soul you feel invincible, a single soldier undaunted by an army of opponents, bringing swift justice with every stroke of your sword - if you don't know the feeling that rises up inside of you when you play at this level, then just assume you don't know what you're talking about.  A casual gamer couldn't possibly understand this.  Anyone can be a casual gamer, but very few can reach the mountain peak he's talking about.

Why can't we, be friends...

We can be friends?  I personally have nothing against you dude.  You made a thread asking someone to explain Sirlin's article, and that's all I'm doing.  I have no hard feelings towards you.

[Cyborg]

Maybe you're not passionate about anything; some people aren't.  If you've never had anything or anyone in your life that you're completely passionate about, to the point that when people insult your beliefs (whether directly or indirectly), you get pissed off, then you couldn't possibly understand Sirlin's opinion.

You are speaking in absolutes,  wing. I'm sure rcix has things he's passionate about. We all do. I have met so many gamers that believe they are right (when in fact they are wrong) and proceed to have a meltdown when challenged. This is not something to be idolized. It's a personality flaw. I believe the greatest display of a gamers strength is to win, gracefully, quietly, amidst all rage, amidst all debate… for when you have achieved the pinnacle of a game, it's your performance that will speak and not your words. If someone thinks differently about your game, comments differently, wants something different, I don't see what's acceptable about putting them down or being a snob. Just win.

Case in point, many of our best AI war players are not jerks about it, are more than willing to share their opinions, and don't put others down. And they seem to be effective in carrying the torch for this beloved title. I think you need to evaluate how to connect with others and show your gamer pride without devolving into an internet jackass.

[Wingflier]

You are speaking in absolutes,  wing. I'm sure rcix has things he's passionate about. We all do. I have met so many gamers that believe they are right (when in fact they are wrong) and proceed to have a meltdown when challenged. This is not something to be idolized. It's a personality flaw. I believe the greatest display of a gamers strength is to win, gracefully, quietly, amidst all rage, amidst all debate… for when you have achieved the pinnacle of a game, it's your performance that will speak and not your words. If someone thinks differently about your game, comments differently, wants something different, I don't see what's acceptable about putting them down or being a snob. Just win.

That's your opinion, and thank you for it.  But why exactly is your opinion better than Sirlin's, mine, or anybody else's?  You seem to be just as elitist as anybody else, so quit playing the hero.

Case in point, many of our best AI war players are not jerks about it, are more than willing to share their opinions, and don't put others down.

I haven't intended to put anybody down.  RCIX made a thread to understand Sirlin's opinion, and I've been trying to explain it to him.

By telling him he couldn't understand Sirlin's opinion, it wasn't meant as an insult, it's just a different way of seeing things.  Being ignorant of something isn't always an insult - we are all ignorant of many things.  It's impossible to know everything.  I'm sure RCIX is knowledgeable about many things that I know nothing about.  Besides, RCIX is my friend, we're friends on Steam.  We've had many conversations.  I have no problem with him, we just have different viewpoints.  I think we've had this conversation in a civilized manner, thank you.

I think you need to evaluate how to connect with others and show your gamer pride without devolving into an internet jackass.

Personal insults now, is it?  Be careful that you aren't the one you're accusing others of being Cyborg.

[RCIX]

Calm down guys Just trying to have a simple discussion here...

To insult another class of people, I don't think the Mona Lisa is that great. Sure, it was an impressive technical and artistic achievement of it's time, but now? To me? It looks like some portrait of a random woman painted in yellows, grays, drab greens, and browns. It's more valuable for the fact that it's 500 year old and who made it than because of it's quality.

Okay RCIX, you're showing your inability to comprehend this concept once again.

Elitism is a form of ignorance which even I'm guilty of.  But being opinionated and vocal about something which you know nothing about is an equally bad form of ignorance.

Would you go into an Operating Room during open heart surgery and start giving the doctor your opinion about how to perform the procedure?  Would you tell a woman, pregnant with a child from a man who has a cuddly hugged  her what to do with her body?

The same goes for the Mona Lisa.  If every great artist (or the vast majority of great artists) agree that it's a beautiful painting, and you know very little about art, maybe it's best that you conclude you don't understand enough about Artistry to make an informed decision on that topic.  Now if you one day become a great artist yourself, you're free to make judgements of course; but assuming that you're not, why do you feel that you have the knowledge to comment on this issue?  If you're a Creationist, who knows very little about Biology and Science, vocally opposing an issue that the majority of the vastly more educated Scientific Community already accepts, then maybe it's time to realize that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Medical examples are flawed because they involve life and death and the well being of other humans; I wouldn't pretend to think that my opinion would do much of any good. In the more general case, I would argue that my opinion has about as much weight as anyone else interested in a field; it may not have influence on what is popular or unpopular but it's not invalid just because it's not exactly the same as what "the experts" say.

That paragraph with the mountain is a very long winded way of saying that PTW at all costs is objectively better than playing for fun.

Imagine a majestic mountain nirvana of gaming. At its peak are fulfillment, "fun", and even transcendence. Most people could care less about this mountain peak, because they have other life issues that are more important to them, and other peaks to pursue.

In Sirlin's opinion, playing to win at all costs is the majestic peak of gaming.  It is the transcendent experience that you can't get in any other way.  However, he's not saying it's the ONLY place you can get this experience.

RCIX, if you have never pushed yourself before, if you have never experienced the pure nirvana of being completely connected with your character, being in-tune with the game, countering and parrying everything your opponent throws at you, while deep in your soul you feel invincible, a single soldier undaunted by an army of opponents, bringing swift justice with every stroke of your sword - if you don't know the feeling that rises up inside of you when you play at this level, then just assume you don't know what you're talking about.  A casual gamer couldn't possibly understand this.  Anyone can be a casual gamer, but very few can reach the mountain peak he's talking about.

I definitely understand how people can have more fun playing to win than playing casually. I might be one of those people myself if I can find the right game. I just object to his insistence that PTW is more objectively fun than not playing to win and that casual gamers ("scrubs" as he put it) have a measurable, massively worse time than someone who plays to win.

Why can't we, be friends...

We can be friends?  I personally have nothing against you dude.  You made a thread asking someone to explain Sirlin's article, and that's all I'm doing.  I have no hard feelings towards you.

It was a more general comment. I just don't see the point in telling people that their opinions are worthless if you disagree with them; Sirlin is certainly welcome to his own opinion, despite the objections I have towards it.

[Wingflier]

Medical examples are flawed because they involve life and death and the well being of other humans; I wouldn't pretend to think that my opinion would do much of any good. In the more general case, I would argue that my opinion has about as much weight as anyone else interested in a field; it may not have influence on what is popular or unpopular but it's not invalid just because it's not exactly the same as what "the experts" say.

Actually, the medical examples are perfect because they expose the critical flaw in your thinking.  You put value in human life, so in that situation, you wouldn't dare give your uneducated opinion to a doctor.  However, in the other situations (art, competitive gaming, or whatever), you don't value the topic as much, so you think you have more of a right to say what you think, even if you don't know much about it.  The is the point though:  Some people DO value these things, even if you don't.  The experts do know more about it than you, they know just as much or more about it than the Doctor performing the open heart surgery, you just seem to care less about whether you offend them.

I definitely understand how people can have more fun playing to win than playing casually. I might be one of those people myself if I can find the right game. I just object to his insistence that PTW is more objectively fun than not playing to win and that casual gamers ("scrubs" as he put it) have a measurable, massively worse time than someone who plays to win.

Well it's obviously just his opinion that it's "objectively" more fun.  However, to be fair, anybody can be a casual gamer, and I'm sure most hardcore gamers have played some games casually.  Not all casual gamers have been hardcore gamers though, so it is possible that they know a little more about it.

I guess nobody's opinion is worthless, but an uneducated or inexperienced opinion on a topic can be very offensive to an expert.  Yes, it's wrong of them to get offended, but sometimes ignorance can be very frustrating.  To give an example:  In America, a large group of mostly uneducated people are trying to push their baseless views into the school system - it's a battle that has been raging since the 20s.  Meanwhile, in many other countries, Evolution has already been accepted and taught for over a decade, and in these countries the level of education has been far superior as a result.  This is one example of how uneducated people with a vocal opinion can hinder social progress.  Obviously I'm not accusing you of anything like this, it's just an example.

On the other end, Elitism can be very frustrating as well.  There are flaws on both sides.  I'm not defending Sirlin, I'm just trying to explain why he feels that way.

[RCIX]

Medical examples are flawed because they involve life and death and the well being of other humans; I wouldn't pretend to think that my opinion would do much of any good. In the more general case, I would argue that my opinion has about as much weight as anyone else interested in a field; it may not have influence on what is popular or unpopular but it's not invalid just because it's not exactly the same as what "the experts" say.

Actually, the medical examples are perfect because they expose the critical flaw in your thinking.  You put value in human life, so in that situation, you wouldn't dare give your uneducated opinion to a doctor.  However, in the other situations (art, competitive gaming, or whatever), you don't value the topic as much, so you think you have more of a right to say what you think, even if you don't know much about it.  The is the point though:  Some people DO value these things, even if you don't.  The experts do know more about it than you, they know just as much or more about it than the Doctor performing the open heart surgery, you just seem to care less about whether you offend them.

I suppose then I just don't agree that things are worth valuing anywhere near human life and IMO it's not a good idea to get super upset over anything that's not that "mission critical".

I definitely understand how people can have more fun playing to win than playing casually. I might be one of those people myself if I can find the right game. I just object to his insistence that PTW is more objectively fun than not playing to win and that casual gamers ("scrubs" as he put it) have a measurable, massively worse time than someone who plays to win.

Well it's obviously just his opinion that it's "objectively" more fun.  However, to be fair, anybody can be a casual gamer, and I'm sure most hardcore gamers have played some games casually.  Not all casual gamers have been hardcore gamers though, so it is possible that they know a little more about it.

I guess nobody's opinion is worthless, but an uneducated or inexperienced opinion on a topic can be very offensive to an expert.  Yes, it's wrong of them to get offended, but sometimes ignorance can be very frustrating.  To give an example:  In America, a large group of mostly uneducated people are trying to push their baseless views into the school system - it's a battle that has been raging since the 20s.  Meanwhile, in many other countries, Evolution has already been accepted and taught for over a decade, and in these countries the level of education has been far superior as a result.  This is one example of how uneducated people with a vocal opinion can hinder social progress.  Obviously I'm not accusing you of anything like this, it's just an example.

On the other end, Elitism can be very frustrating as well.  There are flaws on both sides.  I'm not defending Sirlin, I'm just trying to explain why he feels that way.

My personal opinion on said education topic is that so much misunderstanding on both sides has long since shoved the issue past a peaceful resolution, and I really don't see a way for both sides to be happy. But I digress.