Author Topic: My thoughts on playing to win  (Read 6635 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: My thoughts on playing to win
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2012, 12:45:05 pm »
What he says in there doesn't get under my skin (nor what Rand says, that I've seen).  My point was that he was assigning that derogatory (as he said) term to a wider group of people than just the "hey, throws in SSF are cheap, I'm gonna complain!" crowd.  I agree that players in that particular category would be better off themselves (and the rest of us better off too) if they would change to a less "everyone else should respect my private rules" approach.  But I don't think Sirlin is content with going only that far.

But sure, controversy is often an effective tool for provoking thought, and often provoking thought is what needs to happen.  It would appear he's making it happen ;)
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Offline Cyborg

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Re: My thoughts on playing to win
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2012, 12:49:26 pm »
Mainly what the articles make me think of is the difference between total war and limited war.

Fighting to win?  Firebomb the civilians.  Gas the enemy troops.  Take prisoners only when there is sufficient probability of intelligence gains.  Use as much torture as necessary.  Probably, depends on the PR situation.

I took that approach in a game of lords of the realm 2 with a classmate when I was a teenager over a dial-up modem. I thought the objective was to win the game, and my classmates thought that some rules of war applied. I took the smallest amount of troops I could raise and proceeded to just run around trashing farms. In battles, there is other cheese you can do with the archery units. My first experience with that kind of mindset, and it made him so mad he never played with me again.

Starcraft came out soon after, and it was the same thing. All of that "NO rush 20 minutes" garbage. I played in the PGL, and all of my wins got disqualified because I zerg rushed. That would eventually be shown to be a losing strategy, but at the time it was very effective against a lot of people. I would have gotten to the next round!

In short, play to win, every game. Whatever it takes. Anything less is contrived.

In real life however- not gaming- a little community and chivalry goes a long way.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 12:53:25 pm by Cyborg »
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Offline Cyborg

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Re: My thoughts on playing to win
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2012, 12:50:09 pm »
What he says in there doesn't get under my skin (nor what Rand says, that I've seen).

You are Randian?  :(

I am so disappointed.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: My thoughts on playing to win
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2012, 12:51:57 pm »
What he says in there doesn't get under my skin (nor what Rand says, that I've seen).

You are Randian?  :(

I am so disappointed.
Haha, goodness no.  Just saying that the existence of those opinions doesn't get under my skin.
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Offline LaughingThesaurus

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Re: My thoughts on playing to win
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2012, 12:56:03 pm »
Super Smash Bros. Melee is a game with really heated competition. And y'know, I was rather very competitive in that game... as a direct result of playing Marth, possibly, but I got so used to the tip-of-the-blade thing that I could jump around someone and slice him to pieces without any issue. You know what else we did? We kept items on and played on stages that had hazards and stages that didn't have hazards alike. Is there really only one right way to play competitive, fair, play-to-win sort of games? If anything, items handicapped ME more than my opponent because I had no ranged attacks to counteract someone hanging back and chucking things at me... but that was all part of the game. It was a very fun and interesting dynamic among a tight circle of friends I had who were all very good at the game, and we all played competitively still.

I wouldn't complain if someone rushed me out the gate in an RTS and killed me on the spot. That's my own bad. Those restrictions suck, because they do discourage a whole load of strategies. I just don't like the standard one true competitive way to play a game. I don't like the tournament ruling of "No items, fox only, final destination." or anything like that. The "This arena's okay because there aren't any damage-causing hazards" crap is the exact same way. If there's rising lava, that's part of the game too, right? Likewise, if a smart bomb spawns right next to the other player, that's a little unfair. You know what else is unfair? You can perfect guard and grab the item after it's thrown at you, or do an air dodge and grab it as it flies past. Then YOU have the unfair advantage. Items are also part of the game, right?

It doesn't seem right for the competitive scene to ban things that ARE fair (Akuma notwithstanding of course) and then say about other things, "Well, it's part of the game, and I used it to win, so deal with it."
« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 12:57:59 pm by LaughingThesaurus »

Offline Wingflier

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Re: My thoughts on playing to win
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2012, 12:56:49 pm »
Don't worry, Keith is about as far from a Randian as you could possibly be. At least in my understanding.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: My thoughts on playing to win
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2012, 01:24:48 pm »
It doesn't seem right for the competitive scene to ban things that ARE fair (Akuma notwithstanding of course) and then say about other things, "Well, it's part of the game, and I used it to win, so deal with it."
I think this exposes a more generalized problem: even among extremely competitive communities of competitive games, the community sometimes disagree with the implicit or explicit statement of the game designers that "XYZ is part of the game".  They often then go on to add additional rule(s) that the game knows nothing about ("don't play Akuma except against Akuma", or whatever it is), to change the game to better suit their purposes: good competition.

Other folks choose to add additional rules to games to make them better suit their own purposes, which may or may not have anything to do with competition.  Just having fun, want the biggest explosions, trolling the AI, etc.

What makes me curious is why, as far as I can tell, Sirlin thinks that modifying a game's rules to make it better for competition is a categorically different thing than modifying a game's rules to make it better for absurdly-explodey replays, or whatever.  Maybe he sees those as the same sort of thing, but then I don't really understand why he would self-consciously use a derogatory designation for practicioners of one form of change, and not for another.

Or, in summary: whatever your goals are, don't feel artificially constrained to play games by the rules the developers intended and/or actually implemented.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: My thoughts on playing to win
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2012, 01:35:55 pm »
A lot of readers took issue with his comment about Akuma being overpowered and banned, when just a few sentences before he so eloquently exposed anybody who makes arbitrary rules that exist outside of the games as "scrubs".

However, I personally have no problem with the distinction.  If the vast majority of the best players agree that Akuma is bad for the game (and it seems that they do), then the small minority who disagrees is probably wrong.  As he said, in Japan, Akuma isn't even technically banned, he's just not used as an issue of honor and dignity.

There's a difference between something being slightly broken in a game (wavedashing in SSBM) and stupidly overpowered (Metaknight in SSBB).  How do you make these distinctions?  Admittedly, it can be very difficult sometimes.  But I think the point he's trying to make is that unless a large group of professional players admit it's a problem, you either need to learn to play with it or just find another game.

Of course this brings up another issue of "Why should we balance a game around the best players?"  But competitive games have to balance the game around the best players, otherwise it's not competitive.  Casual games balance around the average player typically, and it makes for a lot shallower, but more mainstream experience.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: My thoughts on playing to win
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2012, 01:49:21 pm »
There's a difference between something being slightly broken in a game (wavedashing in SSBM) and stupidly overpowered (Metaknight in SSBB).  How do you make these distinctions?  Admittedly, it can be very difficult sometimes.  But I think the point he's trying to make is that unless a large group of professional players admit it's a problem, you either need to learn to play with it or just find another game.

Of course this brings up another issue of "Why should we balance a game around the best players?"
I don't think that's a problem, I just think it's important to notice that the difference is not between "a group of competitive players who always play the game by the game's rules; no more, no less" and "a group of casual players who add and/or subtract rules from the game to suit their own purposes", but between two (more, really) groups who each are quite willing to adjust the games they play to better suit their own purposes.

This is more obvious, generally, when a group of players try to apply a high level of competitive rigor to a game that was not actually designed to be suit competition.  Lots of rule changes have to be made to balance it, etc.

And, by the same token, when a group of players with some other set of goals ("let's make a really hilarious replay/screenshots", or "let's see how many of us it takes to take down another guy playing a hilariously overpowered+farmed character" or whatever) try to accomplish those in a game that was designed with tournament-intensity competition in mind, then they have to make a lot of changes.

The point that confuses me, as I mentioned, is that Sirlin would be derogatory (albeit in a fairly light-hearted way, I think) about one, and not the other.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: My thoughts on playing to win
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2012, 01:52:21 pm »
I honestly think he was derogatory to ALL casual players just for the shock value.  He seems too intelligent to have some kind of intrinsic bias towards anyone who doesn't devote their life to playing a video game.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 01:55:28 pm by Wingflier »
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: My thoughts on playing to win
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2012, 02:01:09 pm »
Yea, shock-value seems a good enough explanation.  He's writing to win, after all ;)
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Offline LaughingThesaurus

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Re: My thoughts on playing to win
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2012, 02:06:56 pm »
The elitist attitude seems to happen with a lot of pro gamers though. They look down on the people who don't play the way that they do. Not like you'd see it literally everywhere, but it seems to happen so often and that elite attitude is what puts me off about competitive gamers. I like watching the competitions, but deep down, I just don't like the people who play the games unless they are provably awesome, and don't adopt an elitist attitude about the whole ordeal.

What I want to ask is, why are the professional gamers the ones who get to make the decision? They're better at the game, yeah, but they very easily can, as a group, declare something is overpowered and should be banned... when they could possibly adapt to it. Now Meta Knight, I don't know anything about really (I really really hate how Brawl controls). But, like, with the items thing. I don't see how they're unfair (barring Smash Balls, which seem to have a random chance of when they break, and lead to unblockable supermoves). I don't see how, say, playing on Brinstar is unfair. You can't necessarily predict it, but you can react to it. The more skilled man will still win in a situation like that. It's just a more dynamic battlefield, or a more dynamic battle. Why don't the pros have to adapt to things like that? Why can they declare those things should not be in at all?

Worse gamers can say creep denying is bad and wrong and terribly unintuitive, and they get laughed at, as a scrub. If a pro did the same thing (they wouldn't, but bear with me) then they all can get together and mod DotA so that creep denying is impossible and declare that the competitive standard. Why is this the case? When did they prove that they're so pro that anything they don't like can just be blocked out of the game?

Offline Wingflier

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Re: My thoughts on playing to win
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2012, 02:40:12 pm »
Quote
The elitist attitude seems to happen with a lot of pro gamers though. They look down on the people who don't play the way that they do. Not like you'd see it literally everywhere, but it seems to happen so often and that elite attitude is what puts me off about competitive gamers. I like watching the competitions, but deep down, I just don't like the people who play the games unless they are provably awesome, and don't adopt an elitist attitude about the whole ordeal.
As I said in my first post, "Elitism" is often a simple byproduct of being passionate about something.  Most people are elitist about their religion being the best and only true one, they think their wives are beautiful and their kids are smart, that their political views are superior and correct, etc.  This is cognitive bias, and it's extremely hard to eliminate unless you 1) Realize it's there and 2) Make a conscious effort to change it.

Competitive gamers are typically a lot more passionate about their game, which is also why they're called "hardcore" gamers.  Casual gamers are just that - casual.  They play to have fun, but it's not their life.

I'll bet you anything most casual gamers have something in their life they are more passionate about than video games, that they are elitist about.  I think the biggest issue is that both groups don't really understand each other that well.  Casual gamers don't understand how a hardcore gamer could care so much about a game, and hardcore gamers don't understand why you would even play if you weren't playing to win.

In terms of why competitive games have to balance for their best players, there was a really good post about this in another forum awhile back.  I'll see if I can find it again.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: My thoughts on playing to win
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2012, 02:49:31 pm »
"I've been lurking and posting a bit in the balance forums since I first started playing HoN, and I've been a longtime fan of competitive gaming. A common point of discussion here is that S2 should not "balance for the competitive scene" or something to that effect, implying that by making balance changes based on the results of high-level games, the balance of the game for the majority of the playerbase will be negatively impacted.

Without flaming anyone, I want to respond to this point in the hopes that people will stop using it in various balance arguments on here.

First, it is worth noting that other highly competitive games like StarCraft, Counter-Strike and Street Fighter are primarily balanced on high-level play. It stands to reason that games which have been around for 5, 10, 15 or even 20 years (iterations of Street Fighter II are still regularly played for money at tournaments worldwide) have stood the test of time, and if they had poor balance, they would not have endured. However, I understand that "other good games do this" doesn't convince some people, so that brings me to my next point.

A common issue brought up with competitive balancing is that a particular hero, ability, item or tactic may be effectively used or countered by players at a higher skill level, but ineffectively used or countered by player at a lower level. This complaint potentially has merit, but only if the balance issue in question is so significantly far out of the realm of a typical player's ability that it require an unreasonable amount of time to master. Is this really the case with many supposed balance issues in HoN?

To illustrate this point, here's a comparison of two potential balance issues in other competitive games. One would be the AWP in Counter-Strike. The AWP is a weapon that kills its target in one hit, guaranteed. Many Counter-Strike players consider this to be an overpowered or 'cheap' weapon. However, it is not banned in Counter-Strike tournaments. This is because there are significant penalties to using the AWP (it is heavy, fires only one shot at the time, has no crosshair when it is not zoomed, zooming leaves the user vulnerable, etc.) and all players can in theory use it.

Another issue is "roll-canceling" in the game Capcom vs. SNK 2. Roll-canceling is an exploitable glitch wherein any character with a "roll" type move can essentially transform that move into any other move that their character has while still maintaining the properties of the original move. This gives any character with a roll an incredible advantage, as their special moves effectively become invincible. Early in the game's competitive life, U.S. players (who did not use the glitch) matched up against Japanese players (who had mastered it) and were completely dominated. It is very difficult if not impossible to compete in CVSNK2 without using roll-canceling, which is only available to a handful of characters, and even then requires unimaginably precise timing to execute. Roll-canceling was removed in a port of the game and is considered to be an obviously broken mechanic.

Why is the AWP fine, but roll-canceling is not? Primarily because while the former is accessible to any player in almost any situation, the latter is universally better than virtually all other options, and it carries an incredible 'time tax'. A time tax refers to the fact that certain basic mechanics necessary to high-level play in competitive games require that the player invest a certain amount of time into mastery.

Some games, like Chess, do not have a time tax. A novice player has access to every single option that a grandmaster has, though their decisions on when to use these options will invariably be worse. Conversely, many fighting games have high time taxes (memorizing special moves, combos, frame data, etc.), and specific ones, like CVSNK2, have clearly ridiculous ones. The original StarCraft had a major time tax - micromanagement. This did not affect its status as a great game, but is an acknowledged issue that Blizzard has attempted to address in the sequel.

You might be asking what the point of this discussion is, so I'll get back on topic: HoN is a game that has very few time taxes, and those it does are generally minor. The biggest of them is the requirement of memorizing the abilities of every hero and the effect of every item. If you do not recognize that Predator is using Stone Skin, or that Succubus can hold you for 4 seconds, that Marchers are necessary to increasing movement speed, or Night Hound becomes invisible at level 6, you cannot compete. It takes dozens of games (and even some external research) before any player can be expected to have mastered this 'mechanic' of HoN. If a player said, "I didn't know you could stun me - that's unfair!" would anyone accept this as a valid complaint?

Another time tax is last-hitting. This is a very minor one, and most players can pick up the concept of last-hitting quickly, getting to a competent level within a reasonable amount of time. Again, nobody would accept a complaint that "I don't know how to last-hit, it's overpowered" is legitimate. Then there is the targeting and usage of hero skills. Compared to the multitude of twitch-based games out there, aiming Pyromancer or Witch Slayer's stun is incredibly easy (think about the coordination required to achieve a headshot on a running opponent in Counter-Strike, yet this is a skill any CS player has become at least competent at.) So, in sum, HoN's time taxes are fairly inconsequential.

When you watch a competitive HoN games, the players obviously have a very thorough knowledge of every hero and item. They are excellent at last-hitting and denying. They can land their stuns accurately. But these are not skills that require an enormous time tax to master, or at least become proficient. The difference between a 1900 player and a 1600 player has less to do with their ability to last hit, or their knowledge of what hero does what, and more to do with their strategic decision making - when to use a given skill, when to farm, when to gank, where to gank, and so on.

However, the difference between a 1600 player and a 1300 player has a LOT to do with their ability to last hit, and their knowledge of what hero does what. How many times have you seen an inexperienced pub player die to Blood Hunter's ult? How many people would say Blood Hunter (or his ult) are thus overpowered? The average PSR of HoN is, by definition, 1500. At this level (and certainly below it), many players have not yet mastered the mechanics necessary to playing HoN at a competitive level, despite the fact that these mechanics require a relatively minimal time tax.

It should then be self-evident that it makes sense for game designers to balance their games based on the assumption that people have mastered the requisite mechanics of the game to play it at a competitive level. (Note that this is different than assuming players have the tactical knowledge or predictive skills necessary to play at a competitive level.) If pub players die consistently to Blood Hunter's ult, is it because Blood Hunter is overpowered, or because they don't know the effects of his ult? If pub players are losing consistently to Tempest, is it because Tempest is overpowered, or because they aren't aware of the various counters to him (Vindicator, Tablet of Command, etc.)?

A possible argument against this point might be a hero or item that is very hard to master or counter, and everyone at a competitive level has mastered it (and its counter), but it is infeasible for most people to complete the time tax required to get to that level. My response to this would be NOT to mindlessly nerf the hero/item in question (which would throw off balance once people DO learn it), but rather to simply make it easier to achieve that level of mastery. Making it easier to learn, play or counter a hero or a particular item does not affect high-level balance, but it does help lower-level balance, and there is little reason not to use this approach in situations where the issue in question is simply requiring a large time tax."

----------

Original post here:

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?100136-Why-Balancing-for-High-Level-Players-is-OK
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: My thoughts on playing to win
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2012, 02:50:50 pm »
I think the form of elitism LaughingThesaurus is talking about goes beyond simply saying "XYZ is better than everything else in its class", to "XYZ is better than everything else in its class, and if you don't think so then I am better than you".  The former is easily accepted as a common (though not universal) consequence of actually caring about a subject, but the latter is often repulsive.
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