More Riot PR Fails

[Mánagarmr]

What exactly makes a game(r) casual, anyway? What are the defining traits, particularly the ones that make the label such a mortal insult?

It's a common thing from the "PC-master race". Any game that does not require near superhuman processing ability, coordination and knowledge is simply "casual" and therefor for a lower caste of people. Or, if you want to be blunt, "dumb" people.

I find it amazingly arrogant. There are idiots everywhere, but labelling anyone who does not want to spend 6 months of intense training to be able to play a game "dumb" is rather elitist.

[Wingflier]

You must know a lot about the lives of "casual" players to be able to so readily label them as "pathetic".

What exactly makes a game(r) casual, anyway? What are the defining traits, particularly the ones that make the label such a mortal insult?

I didn't mean to imply that all casual players are simply just gaming to avoid their pathetic lives.  Maybe I wouldn't even judge that MOST of them are doing that; but certainly, a large number of them are.

It's a common thing from the "PC-master race". Any game that does not require near superhuman processing ability, coordination and knowledge is simply "casual" and therefor for a lower caste of people. Or, if you want to be blunt, "dumb" people.

I find it amazingly arrogant. There are idiots everywhere, but labelling anyone who does not want to spend 6 months of intense training to be able to play a game "dumb" is rather elitist.

Oh brother, I'm not asking for people to be part of a "PC Master Race", I'm just asking them to play games that actually challenge them.

As far as I'm concerned, high-level Starcraft is the hardest PC game on the market in terms of physical and mental ability, and of course multi-tasking and strategy.  I'm not even hardcore enough for that game.  I maybe play 1 or 2 DotA games a day during the week when I'm in college.  The point is that I'm continually trying to challenge myself, not just veg out to a video game as if it's some sort of dull TV program.  That's what I mean by casual gamer, using video games as the equivalent to the TV.

And yes, I'm implying that League of Legends is not very challenging.  You can definitely "veg out" to that game.

[KingIsaacLinksr]

I don't particularly like the elitist attitude either. People play the games that they enjoy. The fact that they will play videogames should be celebrated, not slapped down because they won't play a certain kind of game. The fact that my family plays even casual games instead of watching TV at times amazes me to this day. (I was the sole gamer for a long time). So I don't see the problem with people playing casual games. They enjoy it. Why should it bother me that they enjoy a "less cerebral" game than the one I'm playing? And even I play casual games from time to time when I just can't be arsed to think when playing.

So my opinion is to ignore the stupid trolls. They will exist no matter what. Casual or hardcore. Also, not all Console players play Call of Duty. There was a reason that Dark Souls was popular on the console.

Also, saying they have pathetic lives is....just wrong. So very wrong when you don't know.

[Lancefighter]

So my opinion is to ignore the stupid trolls.

Then why havent we stopped replying to this thread?

[eRe4s3r]

@Anyone talking about pointless labels of groups that don't exist (excluded Lancefighter, who makes a great point ,p)

You said you find that labeling of casual gamers elitist and arrogant but you in the same sentence call those who label others as casual gamers the PC-master race.... talk about a weird point you are trying to make

Personally, I think it would be best if nobody calls anyone casual or hardcore. Because that is a subjective label. You are telling more about yourself by giving others this label than you tell about those who you give the label.

I have long since stopped to think in terms of console gamers and hardcore and casual and what not. There is no point. Everyone plays for a different reason and with different goals in mind. For some many the cheap-as-hell reward system of farmville is enough to be entertained. For others, they do not even consider that a valid game. Others consider only games where you need skill to win a game. Others consider that work. So what does it matter.

I think a great pit to fall into as a developer, is to think there is such a thing as the casual gamer. Some gamers simply don't have enough time or motivation to learn complex mechanics. This is why Tidalis is not "casual" you can not pick it up and play it easily (mainly because challenges keep changing the game rules). So yeah....

Also the way this talk went is amazing. This why you never use labels for groups of people that don't have a label and can never be put into 1 definitive group in a proper discussion.

[Wingflier]

So my opinion is to ignore the stupid trolls.

Then why havent we stopped replying to this thread?

I guess you haven't posted enough?

Personally, I think it would be best if nobody calls anyone casual or hardcore.

"Casual" and "hardcore" are indeed overgeneralizations and is unnecessary my main point.  My main point being that if you aren't challenging and attempting to improve yourself in everything you do, you're wasting your life.

Can you play what most people would consider "casual games" and still try to improve yourself?  Sure.  Is everybody doing this?  Certainly not.  Can you play what most people consider "hardcore games", and not be trying to improve yourself?  Probably not, because there is no easy way to turn your brain off and veg out while playing a hardcore game.

I do think that most console games are very casual, but that doesn't mean they can't be challenging, it just doesn't seem like they usually are (from my experience).

Once again, I'm not so concerned with "the labels", I'm concerned with people who want to constantly challenge and improve themselves vs. people just looking to escape from their problems through video games.

I think DotA 2 is the better game for people really looking to improve and challenge themselves, that's all I'm saying, and that's why I'll be impressed if it becomes more popular.

There was a reason that Dark Souls was popular on the console.

Yes, because some people like challenging themselves.  I hope to see more of that!

[Mánagarmr]

Let's just say I have an easier time accepting anyone who plays games for fun (any kind of fun) over someone who can't help spit at those they find aren't playing games "the right way".

Everyone has different tastes. I'm probably a perfect example of this. I play both skill-based, high concentration games (such as Tribes competitively) and casual games (P&C RPGs). Whatever I feel like at the moment. Looking down on any other type of gamer is fine, I guess. But contiously antagonizing them with elitist posts is daft at best.

[Wingflier]

I'm not looking down at anybody, and least of all you.

You're part of the AI War forum, and I dare say most people are going to consider AI War a very hardcore game.

Tribes is a competitive game indeed, and I'm sure you challenge yourself while you play that.  RPGs though (such a Torchlight 2 or whatnot), I'm assuming you don't play these on the easiest difficulty either?

The point is that you're challenging yourself, at some level, no matter what you play.  This to me defines a gamer.  Games were originally meant to be challenging, and that's what drew the gamers.

People who play games to escape from reality aren't gamers in my opinion.  You don't seem like one of these people.  Realize that there are no "good" or "bad" connotations here.  I'm not looking down on people who aren't gamers, I would just appreciate the gaming world more if there were more of them.

[Mánagarmr]

That was a good post, because that cleared up a nice amount of questionmarks. Thanks for detailing that! Well, sometimes I'm just tired and lazy (or get TOO challenged) and I turn it down, but yes, generally I seek to challenge myself. My current playthrough of XCOM is kicking my arse as I play on Classic Ironman.

[Wingflier]

Believe me, I get extremely stressed out too sometimes and play my fair share of RPGs, but I always keep my problems in the back of my mind, I never attempt to escape from them.

That's how I used games for the first half of my life, and boy, it didn't turn out so pretty.

[keith.lamothe]

I remember the MoO3 forums in the year or so before release of that game, and then for a bit after.  They weren't casual players, they were very hardcore, they were almost all fairly intellectual, and looking for a mentally-challenging game.  And it was still a stinking snakepit-cesspool.  Often it was fairly intelligent conversation (except where the rage really took over, which was semi-often) but it was simply toxic.

I don't understand what you're trying to say.  You say that most the time, it was intelligent conversation over a fairly intellectual, mentally-challenging game.

Aside from the semi-ragefits, what about it was toxic?

To put it simply: people were very nasty towards each other.  "Intelligent conversation" does not imply "conversation for which I would not throw the speaker's incredibly rude behind out of my house"   It just means that the person demonstrated a decent level of intellect in what they said.  But in this case it was often venomous at the same time.

[Wingflier]

It doesn't bother me that much.  The nasty way people act online is the way they truly feel inside right?  Perhaps they feel they can't get it out in their real lives, so they use their internet anonymity to vent it instead.  It's probably healthier than yelling at somebody you care about.  I say let it out! 

Watching flame wars is incredibly entertaining to me, and probably healthy for the people participating as well.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'd rather see hatred between intellectuals than artificial nonsense among laymen.

[keith.lamothe]

But a great deal of the trolling and snakepitishness of the LoL forums and whatnot is basically the same thing: they're just letting whatever's inside, out.

Or is that not what bothers you about the way they act there, and instead it's simply that they (on the average) want less challenge from games than you do?  Or that mental engagement (in games in elsewhere) probably matters less to them than to you?

[Wingflier]

But a great deal of the trolling and snakepitishness of the LoL forums and whatnot is basically the same thing: they're just letting whatever's inside, out.

I was a member of the LoL forums for about a year.  In my experience there wasn't much trolling or flaming, because those people typically got downvoted and their posts ignored.  Instead there was Riot worship and pointless threads about completely arbitrary and ridiculous topics like new skin requests and Riot Staff "Appreciation" (sucking-up) threads.

Or is that not what bothers you about the way they act there, and instead it's simply that they (on the average) want less challenge from games than you do?

Like I said, I would have appreciated intellectual debate much more than what was actually happening. 

"Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know." -Ernest Hemingway

It's the depth of the discussion (or lack thereof) that concerns me in the LoL forums, because the players themselves aren't very deep (in general).

*edited by moderator for language after complaint*

[keith.lamothe]

Hmm, yea, I confess I didn't spend any significant time on those forums, as I'd experienced plenty of snakepits already and heard it described as another one (indeed, one of the worst) but multiple independent sources I generally found fairly level-headed, so I didn't stick my nose in it to see if it really smelled that bad.