Moba balance comparison, please comment

[Mánagarmr]

I'm something of a whale in Smite, I must admit. I own almost every premium skin and voicepack available. But I don't just buy stuff "because". I'll only buy the skin if I actually like it. As such, I don't own Lunar Tango Chang'e, Footballer Xbalanque etc.

[Wingflier]

I absolutely DETEST out of game progression. League of Legends has this too with it's retarded Glyhp system. All it does is add unnecessary complexity AND put experienced people even further ahead of new players than they already are (experience and whatnot). I absolutely hate that system.


I can accept Smite's level system that bar people from playing League (ranked) unless they're level 30. I understand that. It keeps noobs from completely screwing up the matchmaking in the lower brackets. But anything beyond that just makes me sick.

I agree with this. Smite's mini-transaction system doesn't bother me for the most part. They more or less charge you $30 to 'unlock' the game, which is a very good deal. By contrast, you would have to spend hundreds of dollars to unlock all of LoL's champions, and that wouldn't include the runes or summoner levels (or the steady stream newly created champions) either. $30 is a respectable fee considering the quality and replayability of Smite, so I had no problem paying for it, then or now.

Dota 2 gets away with not doing it because it STARTED so bloody huge; there was no way the game was NOT going to make money, so long as they offered SOMETHING, regardless of what that was.  They were able to start out with a totally different pay model, and be guaranteed to get away with it.

Misery is right about this. Making DotA completely free to play is something only Valve could have probably gotten away with, but since they have, it is currently the only MOBA which starts everyone out on a completely even playing field (all heroes unlocked), without ever having to spend a dime.

I'm starting to get back into Smite, I talked at length yesterday to King who gave me a lot of information and help on getting into the game and how it should be played.

Concerning HOTS again. The $40 nets you 3 heroes to start with. By contrast, how many hours of playtime would it require to unlock those 3 heroes on your own without spending any money?

[Mick]

So the Founder's Pack ($40) is now available for Heroes of the Storm. It gives you instant access to the game including 3 heroes and a few other cosmetic things. I'm considering buying it, though I'm not sure it would be worth it.

I'd say if you really want into the beta and $40 is something you'd be willing to spend for that, sure, and the heroes and skins they give you are icing. But unfortunately the heroes they offer are all on the lame side. Raynor is an average hero, but he's dirt cheap in terms of in game gold to buy anyway. I got him as part of the $5 "starter" bundle you can get in game which I think is WAAAAY better in terms of value (it gives three solid, but cheap, heroes).

The $40 bundle has been in the game for a while and is almost the joke bundle in terms of value. Raynor is cheap anyways, and if you own him from the starter bundle, you get nothing back for already owning him if buying this bundle. Tyrande right now is considered on the 'meh' side, but a really skilled player can make some use out of her. Diablo is considered a strong candidate by most players to be the WORST of the heroes (although to be fair, he's shortly due for a reworking, so we'll see how he ends up).

So you're not getting great value in terms of owned heroes, the free rotation is going to offer you more interesting choices every week anyway, although I do think Raynor is a solid hero for a new player who wants a lot of consistency (but then I'd say get the starting bundle, which unfortunately does not provide beta access... so meh).

The $ in the $40 is really going toward the skins. I have no issue spending money on skins that I like, but the ones given in this bundle are not particularly interesting (Raynor probably the best of the three). If you don't give a crap about skins, you're not getting anything here.

The gold cyber wolf mount is exclusive to the bundle, so there's that. I like wolves, but I spend $ on the actual wolf mount, which I think looks a lot more bad ass.

Is instant beta access alone worth $40 to you? Buy it then. Otherwise, I advise against using the contents of the bundle to sway your estimate of its value, unless you really really like the skins and mount.

---

As far as talent gating. I'm on the side of indifference as far as that goes. On some heroes it's more obnoxious than others simply because of the order they ungate their particular talents, but it really only affects it for a couple games and it's not like you're going to be a rock star with a hero the first time you play it anyway. I do believe it encourages players to look more at each talent instead of just picking a cookie-cutter build from day one and not even considering the other options. The latest patch changed the ordering the level 20 talents unlock to make a lot more sense, so that's a plus.

Overall though, I think it's something players make WAY more of a big deal out of than it is justified, and if it's their biggest complaint with the game, that kinda speaks toward how awesome the game is in general.

[Wingflier]

Thanks Mick, that's been the best answer so far. From the way you present it, the main thing the $40 is affording you is a lack of patience. In that case I'll simply be logical and wait. If at some point anyone has an extra beta invite lying around, let me know!

[Wingflier]

To the SMITE junkies in this thread, please help me:

What is up with the God "Chaac". Every single game he's in he goes Divine, Beyond Godlike, whatever. He's unbelievably powerful. In the lane he can keep harassing you for free by spamming Thunder Strike because his passive makes it cost no mana, and through it's technically a skillshot, it's really not because the aoe is massive. In the laning phase with level 1 boots or less, you just don't have the movespeed to avoid it whatsoever meaning, especially if he has the blue, you'll be taking massive damage every few seconds and your creepwave will most certainly be pushed up against the tower losing valuable gold in the process.

That's okay though right? Surely a god with such a powerful free spammy aoe ability can be ganked right? Don't even try it. Even though he's a Warrior, Ymir is easier to kill. If you try to engage on him he absolutely destroys you. He has enough base stats to utterly melt anybody within the laning phase, especially squishier mages, hunters, or assassins. His second skill gives him a lot of protections and does quite a bit of damage as well. His third skill heals him in the event that he somehow takes damage (good luck), and did I mention that your lane is guaranteed to be pushed up to the tower at all times because he's the only hero in the game that doesn't have to worry about mana?

What amazes me though, even with the massive early game advantage which always includes him diving your tower and demolishing you at level 5 (towers seem to do nothing to him), is that even without ANY defensive items, this guy can go pure offensive build and still be impossible to kill. Every game I see this character it's an instant win for the team he's on.

I don't want to be "that guy", because this happens all the time in DotA when new players think a hero is overpowered and it's actually just a case of their own inexperience. But holy hell, somebody throw me a bone here.

[Mánagarmr]

I know your feeling mate. I had the exact same experience with Freya when I was new. Everytime I saw her, I would end up being obliterated, completely clueless as how to counter her.


Chaac is difficult, because most people think "counter = Kill" but with Chaac, and to a greater extent Hercules, this simply isn't the case. The way to beat Chaac is to outpush him and make him lose gold (any minion hit by a tower is worth 0 gold, regardless of last hits). If you absolutely MUST fight him you need Purification Beads for the silence on his ultimate, and Brawler's Beatsick/Pestilence(notreally)/Divine Ruin or Weakening Curse for his heal. Generally when you are up against high sustain warriors such as Chaac and Herc in solo lane you simply will not kill them ever, unless they are dumb as bricks. They have too much sustain and tankiness to survive any poke damage you do, so coordinate with your jungler and hit him HARD when he overextends.


But generally, having some protection and countering his silence and heal helps. Also don't stand in your minion wave. Force him to CHOOSE. Poke you or clear the wave with the axe throw? Don't ever let him do both. It also helps playing him yourself. Get to know his nuances and see what other people do to counter you. Then apply that whenever you are up against him. Chaac is not unbeatable, but he is strong. Bakasura is actually a fairly good counter, but Bakasura is ridiculously hard to play and you will most likely get destroyed in your first few games with him.

[Wingflier]

Freya has only her auto attack. That's it. No slows, no stuns, no escapes, and she's incredibly squishy and her range isn't even that great. With the occasional exception of her ultimate, which does ignorable damage until she has higher levels of farm and experience, she's completely ignorable as a character. I don't have to know anything about the game to know that she's one of the least scary junglers and near useless in the lane. Hercules is indeed hard to kill but he can't push the lane at all and once again, is almost completely reliant on his auto attack.

Chaac (which, in lieu of knowing the correct pronunciation, I have chosen to pronounce 'cock') is just as dangerous in a duo lane in my experience as solo. Which combo of adc and support is going to out push that character plus somebody else? He alone could probably outpush most lane combos, without even needing to add a partner. You're also not supposed to engage him for the entire laning phase? That's just wonderful. I guess we'll just sit by our tower and get no gold from creeps until he slowly harasses us to death with axe spam until he's finally ready to jump in with his ultimate and kill us with complete impunity. Maybe the character is balanced for competitive play or 5 man teams where the correct combination of heroes can counter him, but in blind pick he's absolutely stupid.

[Mánagarmr]

Freya has only her auto attack. That's it. No slows, no stuns, no escapes, and she's incredibly squishy and her range isn't even that great. With the occasional exception of her ultimate, which does ignorable damage until she has higher levels of farm and experience, she's completely ignorable as a character. I don't have to know anything about the game to know that she's one of the least scary junglers and near useless in the lane. Hercules is indeed hard to kill but he can't push the lane at all and once again, is almost completely reliant on his auto attack.

Chaac (which, in lieu of knowing the correct pronunciation, I have chosen to pronounce 'cock') is just as dangerous in a duo lane in my experience as solo. Which combo of adc and support is going to out push that character plus somebody else? He alone could probably outpush most lane combos, without even needing to add a partner. You're also not supposed to engage him for the entire laning phase? That's just wonderful. I guess we'll just sit by our tower and get no gold from creeps until he slowly harasses us to death with axe spam until he's finally ready to jump in with his ultimate and kill us with complete impunity. Maybe the character is balanced for competitive play or 5 man teams where the correct combination of heroes can counter him, but in blind pick he's absolutely stupid.

I'm just going to respectfully say that if that's your evaluation of Freya, you have never faced anyone with a brain behind the keyboard. She is TERRIFYING in the right hands. Also Chaac is absolutely counterable. You can play several characters that are either soft or hard counters to Chaac, in addition to the items I mentioned before. You are better off playing character with very high burst damage (Bakasura, Loki, Poseidon) to kill him before he starts healing back up. Just remember to beads the silence so you aren't stuck doing nothing for 3 seconds. Or you can play someone with similar, or better, sustain than him such as Aphrodite (GREAT sustain, good poke and very good survivability with her utl), Ra or Hercules. You can also play heavy bruisery type gods such as Osiris or a bruiser-built Nemesis. Though Nemesis kinda lacks the clear to properly fight his clear, but she will absolutely DESTROY him in a boxing match with her slow and protection shredding. Zhong Kui is probably not a bad pick either, as he has sustain, great damage and extra tankiness for a mage. Chang'e is borderline broken and quite near the line of "overpowered", so she's probably not a bad pick.


But judging from your text you're not really interested in how to counter him, all you want is for someone to say "Yes, Chaac is overpowered", which just isn't true.




As for pronounciation it's pretty much "chalk", but without he "L" sound.

[KingIsaacLinksr]

I don't have to know anything about the game to know that she's one of the least scary junglers and near useless in the lane.

Yeah, Freya is clearly the most useless jungler in the game. Its why she has a high pick/ban rate in the Smite Pro League for...idk...most of the entire season. She was seen doing well not only in Jungle but in solo and ADC roles as well. She might have even mid at one point. She's a nightmare in the right hands. She wasn't seen much in Smite World Championships because Ao Kuang is the new favorite at the moment and too many teams were figuring out how to counter her but she is absolutely powerful and not to be messed with.

She has a "stun" in the form of banish and a slow in the form of her 2.

[Mánagarmr]

Don't forget her "I'm INVINCIBLE!" turnaround potential in her ult.

[Wingflier]

I didn't say she was one of the most useless junglers. She can obviously jungle very quickly. She's a good jungler. I said she's one of the less SCARY junglers, as in when she ganks you she has absolutely no way to slow you or hold you down the way some of the other junglers do. She completely relies on the people in the lane to provide the disables for her.

What makes her good in the jungle, from what I can see, is how quickly she can do it, which allows her to explode with farm in the mid and lategame, not how well she can gank lanes.

I'm sure she can be a good ADC (though solo honestly surpises me) because like any ADC, she does a lot of right click damage...Once again however, that's about it. She squishy, has no escapes, and her only disable makes you invincible. She can be good the way any ADC can be good in the right hands, I don't see anything about her that can't be completely countered or shut down. Obviously she's much better on a coordinated team where her massive physical auto attack DPS can be coordinated, but I somehow doubt her winrate in pubs is all that impressive.

I also realize that Chaac is lower tier in competitive play. But once again, I wasn't talking about competitive play. I'm talking about Blind Pick where apparently, if you're put in the lane against a hero that you didn't specifically pick to counter, the lane is automatically lost. That's a terrible design. Freya as ADC? Almost any combo can deal with that. Freya as jungler? Buy wards and simply back off when she comes to gank. Chaac as "support" with blue buff? You've lost the lane unless you have two heroes that can push UNBELIEVABLY well. If you have a classical duo such as Hunter/Guardian, you might as well concede or hope to god your jungler ganks every 2 minutes. That's just not good design. There's no hero like that in DotA. Well, there's no mode in DotA where you can't see what the enemy team is picking so that couldn't even happen in the first place.

Don't forget her "I'm INVINCIBLE!" turnaround potential in her ult.

Like 15 heroes in Smite have invincibility with their ult. That doesn't automatically make them good.

[KingIsaacLinksr]

as in when she ganks you she has absolutely no way to slow you

I just said she has a slow in her 2. Add on Hastened Fatalis and good luck ever getting away from her without abilities/sprint.

I also realize that Chaac is lower tier in competitive play. But once again, I wasn't talking about competitive play. I'm talking about Blind Pick where apparently, if you're put in the lane against a hero that you didn't specifically pick to counter, the lane is automatically lost. That's a terrible design. Freya as ADC? Almost any combo can deal with that. Freya as jungler? Buy wards and simply back off when she comes to gank. Chaac as "support" with blue buff? You've lost the lane unless you have two heroes that can push UNBELIEVABLY well. If you have a classical duo such as Hunter/Guardian, you might as well concede or hope to god your jungler ganks every 2 minutes. That's just not good design. There's no hero like that in DotA. Well, there's no mode in DotA where you can't see what the enemy team is picking so that couldn't even happen in the first place.

Welcome to Blind Picks in SMITE, where sometimes the god you picked had the misfortune of getting counter-picked. It happens. I've played lots of casual matches where it happens. Mana up there just gave you a bunch of gods that can counter Chaac, you can pick them next time you go into Conquest. Keep in mind as well that even if you "lose" your lane, its not game over. Which, speaking of "losing the lane", you've only lost the lane if you've been feeding the enemy lots of kills (I'm talking around 7-10 kills) and both towers. If you've stayed alive, died minimally and lost only one tower by the 15-20min mark, you've not lost your lane. By the 15-20 minute mark, you should be rotating to help your team secure the big objectives. Gold Fury, Fire Giant, other towers, mid harpies, buffs if necessary. Get into the team fights and help out. If Chaac is still pushing your lane by 20mins but your winning team fights, then you win, not Chaac.

Killing the Titan is the only thing that matters and you should always keep that in mind no matter what role your playing. Even if you lose your lane (or the jungle as the case might be), if the rest of your team is doing well, then its no big deal. Not every lane is going to hold their own against the enemy god they're confronting. Chaac is not the iWin button. If you don't have one of the gods up above that Mana pointed out, buy Weaknening curse, tank up as best you can and survive as best you can to mid game where you and your team can do more against him. Chaac falls off later game because his damage isn't usually enough to take out the tankier targets and unless he gets an absolutely beautiful 5-man ultimate off, he doesn't bring a lot to the teamfight. 

Chaac is a tanky guy and I love playing him but he has his weaknesses. (his complete lack of CC outside of his ult. His slow is ok at best but its risky to use). He's also not the only god in the game who has a really strong early-game presence in solo, so, keep that in mind.

[Wingflier]

Ah forgive me. I played Freya about a year ago. Back then she didn't have a slow on her second skill so it seems they buffed her tremendously with that. No wonder you keep raving about her.

Alright, well I do see the weakness of blind pick but as you explained, I just have to learn to play around it. Thanks for your help guys! We'll keep trying til we figure it out.

[KingIsaacLinksr]

Ah forgive me. I played Freya about a year ago. Back then she didn't have a slow on her second skill so it seems they buffed her tremendously with that. No wonder you keep raving about her.

Alright, well I do see the weakness of blind pick but as you explained, I just have to learn to play around it. Thanks for your help guys! We'll keep trying til we figure it out.

No problem! It's as I said. In SMITE, you will die and you will lose towers in Conquest. It's how it goes. Even if your entire team loses all tier 1/2 towers in the progress of the game, it's not auto-game over. It's only game over if you or someone on the team is feeding hard and/or given up. Otherwise, things can easily turn around in late game. Especially if you have good team work and/or a few late game carries like Kali in the jungle.

Good luck!

[Mánagarmr]

There's a lot of gods in Smite with differing power curves. Kali, Loki and Chronos are two that are near useless early game and need to farm carefully and only commit to fights they're absolutely sure they can win. By the end game, unless they're stopped by a focused team effort, a skilled player can nearly win the game single handedly. Most Hunters fall into this category as well, seeings they are the "carries".


Then there's gods like Chaac, Thanatos and Odin. Nearly unstoppable early game. They are either tanky or dish out ridiculous amounts of damage and are absolute nightmare lanebullies. But if they don't manage to get enough of a lead by the midgame, they're out of the picture and provide very little to the coming endgame.


This dynamic among the gods makes for a very different game everytime. If you face up against a team consisting of Xbalanque, Ares, Odin, Thanatos and Nox, you better tank up and play it safe. They will destroy your early game if you don't play smart. It's a very high risk of a surrender at 10 because they will be SO far ahead. But play smart, and their game falls apart. Face a team of Rama, Geb, He Bo, Osiris and Kali? Crush them fast. Prevent them from getting to the end game. Because if they do...my oh my.