Author Topic: Moba balance comparison, please comment  (Read 102902 times)

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #495 on: March 04, 2014, 10:18:09 AM »
At this point I've been playing DotA, Smite, and Strife ;p

I like all 3 of them in their own way. Smite is basically just a better League of Legends. It has all the same mechanics, just more refined, and because it's in 3rd person I think there's a lot more room for technical skill as a player. There are also some major improvements in terms of the way last hitting works and the champion/god design just seems better to me. Also, no "runes/masteries" system is heavenly (pun intended).

Strife is kind of like its own game entirely. It really puts the emphasis on battles and strategic value, rather than things like last hitting, map positioning, and buying all the right items. I've been surprised at how many opportunities I've had to simply outplay my opponents that I don't often get in some of the other MOBAs, at least not overtly. For example, when a hero becomes low, the game basically forces you (indirectly) to kill them, because once they leave the battle for awhile, they'll just regen all their health. So these mechanics create situations where the enemy is prepared to dive your tower to finish you off or vice versa, ending in hilarious ways.

DotA of course is still my favorite. It's definitely the most hardcore of the 3, and probably still the most skill-based by far, but admittedly, a lot of the "skill" is in really stupid areas like last hitting, denying, creep pulling, etc. Still though, once you've mastered those your own personal contribution to the game is much higher than ANY of the others. In Smite or Strife there's just no such thing as an Enigma black hole or Earthshaker echo slam. Individual players just can't make the same amount of impact as they do in DotA. You're really at the mercy of your team in the more casual games, which gets extremely frustrating at times.

Overall I feel that each game (at least of those 3) fills their own niche and plays to its own strengths very nicely. They all have their own benefits and drawbacks, but Strife and Smite are CERTAINLY more appropriate for new players just getting into the genre.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #496 on: March 11, 2014, 06:00:51 AM »
Did I mention the part where bot makers need to be kicked?  By a giant flaming horse?

Because they kinda do.

I do wonder though why this forum attracts so many of them.

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #497 on: March 12, 2014, 05:51:51 AM »
Did I mention the part where bot makers need to be kicked?  By a giant flaming horse?

Because they kinda do.

I do wonder though why this forum attracts so many of them.
I personally think this forum is fairly spared. One forum I ran had a bot-maker crack the registration process, and the day after the forum had over 8000 new posts. That was fun.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #498 on: March 12, 2014, 06:52:38 AM »
Did I mention the part where bot makers need to be kicked?  By a giant flaming horse?

Because they kinda do.

I do wonder though why this forum attracts so many of them.
I personally think this forum is fairly spared. One forum I ran had a bot-maker crack the registration process, and the day after the forum had over 8000 new posts. That was fun.

Just..... ouch.   Geez.

Someday maybe I'll understand the deranged thought processes that lead someone to believe that doing such a thing is a good idea.  Today is not that day.

Offline Riabi

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #499 on: March 12, 2014, 07:46:33 AM »
Did I mention the part where bot makers need to be kicked?  By a giant flaming horse?

Because they kinda do.

I do wonder though why this forum attracts so many of them.
I personally think this forum is fairly spared. One forum I ran had a bot-maker crack the registration process, and the day after the forum had over 8000 new posts. That was fun.

Just..... ouch.   Geez.

Someday maybe I'll understand the deranged thought processes that lead someone to believe that doing such a thing is a good idea.  Today is not that day.

In many cases, there is a TON of money involved.

Offline Coppermantis

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #500 on: March 12, 2014, 11:37:39 PM »
This place has got nothing on the Spore Forum. In its worst days, they were hit by spammers daily who would attack random threads with enormous quantities of GIFs, effectively making them unreadable.

Many of them weren't even bots. That's the sad part.
I can already tell this is going to be a roller coaster ride of disappointment.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #501 on: March 13, 2014, 12:09:54 AM »
A QUAD LANE in competitive DotA? Enemy team gets absolutely crushed? What is this madness?

This is why I love DotA. You just never know what crazy strategies you're going to see next.

http://www.dotacinema.com/vods/7437#game3

When I first saw the team compositions, I was very worried for Na'Vi. It was the 3rd game in an extremely close best of 3, and I knew that in the lategame, Sigma's team had a massive advantage. In fact, I kind of wrote Na'Vi off before the game even started. I could never have anticipated the quad lane :P
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Offline Misery

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #502 on: March 13, 2014, 02:49:41 AM »
Ehhhh.... I have to admit, I'm kinda losing interest in Dota myself.  I play the others, but I havent touched that one in months.

The pacing is way too slow, laning is very boring due to lack of combat happening unless a gank occurs, and even then combat is like 2 seconds long.... Support role is at it's worst out of the entire genre (half the time is spent placing wards, and then you get some more gold, to place some more wards... ugh) some of the heroes are absurdly irritating to use (anyone with any type of "pet" or summon) and of course the "cant just surrender and get it over with.... must continue boring guaranteed loss game or end up in the derp queue".... among other things like the last-hit obsession and the anti-logic that is denying.

Me thinks I'm just going to give that one up for now.  It simply requires WAY too much patience, which doesnt work well with the fact that I have what is possibly anti-patience.  The others tend to have constant STUFF happening, so they hold my interest better.  .....and lack the utter obsession with last hits. 

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #503 on: March 13, 2014, 03:04:42 AM »
Maybe that's why I enjoy DotA so much, it teaches me patience. In patience, comes wisdom. I can literally tell when I play DotA and I can keep my emotions out of the game, in a kind of peaceful logical serenity, I perform so much better.

There's definitely something to be said about the other games though. Strife and Smite are full of action the entire way through, though like I said, I think because of that kind of forced design, there's less strategy overall. It's all about tradeoffs I suppose.
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #504 on: March 13, 2014, 09:32:24 AM »
I feel the same way with DotA actually, even though it's primarily the controls and perspective that is the biggest hurdle (and thus why I don't play any other MOBA than Smite). But it's the pacing seems completely off. The laning phase is ardously long and extremely focus intensive in that you have to last hit and deny, leaving little time or energy for poking. Then comes the actual combat which is over in literally seconds and seem more reliant on team composition than individual skills since people just tend to be instanuked.
 
I dunno, I'm not saying that DotA is bad, I'm just saying that it's definitely not for me.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #505 on: March 13, 2014, 12:28:49 PM »
I feel the same way with DotA actually, even though it's primarily the controls and perspective that is the biggest hurdle (and thus why I don't play any other MOBA than Smite). But it's the pacing seems completely off. The laning phase is ardously long and extremely focus intensive in that you have to last hit and deny, leaving little time or energy for poking. Then comes the actual combat which is over in literally seconds and seem more reliant on team composition than individual skills since people just tend to be instanuked.
 
I dunno, I'm not saying that DotA is bad, I'm just saying that it's definitely not for me.

I can understand the mouse thing.

Much as I like the genre, I dont like having to use the mouse for movement and such.

Really wish the top-down mobas (aka, not Smite) would get more control options, though that's unlikely.  Future mobas, then, gimme the blasted WASD to move already.  We dont HAVE to stick to this current type, which is only there because that's how the Warcraft engine needed to be controlled.  Or at least that's my theory.


Diablo does this too, and I always want that type of control for it as well.

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #506 on: March 13, 2014, 12:32:40 PM »
Also the simple fact that you can deselect your hero is beyond me completely. I'm naturally a noob since I've only played a few matches in DotA, but the mere fact that I can accidently deselect my hero and get it "lost off screen" is mind boggling to me :) But again, I understand it's to allow control of pets and whatnot, but it just doesn't work at all for me.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #507 on: March 13, 2014, 05:09:58 PM »
It's not for everybody, but I like it because of the amount of strategy that's involved. You kind of portray the importance of the picking phase as a bad thing, but to me it's actually one of the coolest things about the game, and an advantage it has over other MOBAs. I can get a massive advantage over my opponents before the game even starts.

For example:
Are you playing with a friend?

If yes - Create a really powerful and fun duo lane which scales well into the lategame and wreck face.
If no -

Do you need a jungler?

If yes -
Do they a lot of squishy heroes? Pick Axe.
Do they have a lot of carries/little anti-push? Pick Lycan.
Does your team have a powerful teamfight/aoe composition? Pick Enigma.

If no -

Do you need a solo offlaner?

If yes -
Do you need strong teamfight potential? Pick Tidehunter.
Do you need a strong single target disable? Pick Beastmaster.
Do you need a powerful escape mechanism? Pick Windrunner.

And on and on and on.

Literally with my pick, I can change the entire course of the game because I'm simultaneously countering them and complementing my team to a high degree.

In the other MOBAs, from what I've experienced, this just isn't possible. I mean it's nice in Strife to just be able to pick whatever the hell you want, but it also takes a lot of the strategy out of the game as well. In fact, in most MOBAs it's just a case of picking "x hero for x role". It's really as shallow as that. There may be some soft counters, but nothing to the extent in which counters can affect the game in DotA.

I can understand how overwhelming all of this may be for a person who has little familiarity with the entire roster of ~100 heroes, but for someone who has played the game extensively, it's quite enjoyable.

In terms of the fight pacing, I have to agree with you there. DotA fights can be over within a matter of seconds. Then again, it's the only game I know of in which fights can last upwards of 5 minutes as well. Because of the built-in buyback and TP mechanics, you can have a battle that just rages on and on and on, which is absolutely hilarious to watch and participate in. I've never really seen this kind of opportunity in the other game.

Another aspect of DotA's "high lethality" mechanics is the psychological mind games that go along with that. For example, over a period of 10 years, I've recognized that one of the most important aspects of playing the game has nothing to do with your technical skill at all, but the ability to get into your opponent's mind. Certain actions, positions, and behavior will, depending on the hero, make the average player consider you more of a threat than others. Once you learn how the enemy thinks, you can exploit this kind of psychology to your own advantage. DotA spells may be lethal, but they aren't infinite. In the end, both sides have to pick "high priority" targets to shoot the first volley at, then wait again until their spells recharge to do it again. Usually somebody (or somebodies) will die in that initial burst, leaving the remaining players to finish the battle.

Ensuring that you don't die in that initial burst, by making yourself seem like a less important target, and by having great positioning, can improve your ability to contribute to any given game. On the flip side, if it's a game in which you are doing well, your opponents will begin to fear you. In this scenario, they are often afraid to provoke you or focus you, in the fear that it will be a waste of time or that you will attack them first! It's two sides of the same coin. Use your situation to have a psychological advantage over your opponent and exploit it to the fullest.

Conversely, some heroes WANT to be attacked. When I pick Axe, sure, I may jump in and be bursted into oblivion, but with my trust Blademail activated, and my Counter Helix spinning at full speed, the enemy team will have maimed themselves in the process, leaving my team the opportunity to clean up the mess. Pugna loves the initial burst. Let me lay down my Nether Ward and watch the fireworks as your own spells turn against you.

I just don't find this level of strategy or psychological warfare in the other games. Perhaps it's just because I'm less familiar with them, but I also think that the added complexity of DotA, as frustrating as it may be for beginners, offers more to those who have the patience to stick with it.
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #508 on: March 13, 2014, 07:26:36 PM »
If you can determine the outcome of the entire match solely on your pick before it even begins...I see that as VERY poor design.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #509 on: March 13, 2014, 07:58:00 PM »
If you can determine the outcome of the entire match solely on your pick before it even begins...I see that as VERY poor design.
There's a difference between determining the outcome and getting a massive advantage.

It's just a matter of the skill game starting before the picks are done.  If you have way more skill at laning than your opponent in the lane then you can often translate that into a massive advantage.  Similarly, if you have way more skill at hero picks than your opponents, you can translate that into a massive advantage.

Determining the outcome is beyond any of that, though.  I'm guessing there have been situations out there where it wouldn't have mattered if one team somehow accidentally picked creeps to control instead of heroes, they still could have won :)
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