Author Topic: Moba balance comparison, please comment  (Read 102570 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #480 on: March 01, 2014, 11:07:07 AM »
But putting that label on everyone? Nope, that's stretching it, and it's incredibly insulting to people like me, who have never, to my knowledge, abused anyone in game ever.
I was assuming that the labels Cyborg was applying, while intended to be general, were not intended to be exhaustive of every single person who plays MOBAs (that would include him in the blast radius, after all).
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Offline Cyborg

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #481 on: March 01, 2014, 11:41:41 AM »
To call a community a pile of dung or a bunch of toxic, spoiled brats is not an absolute statement about the human worthiness of every single person playing. It's a statement about the collective value of the community. You might have some very nice players, but the average behavior of the community is toxic. Do any of you read the forums? Do you play these games? These are not pleasant places to be. I consider Wing's outrage to be entirely fake and predicated on distracting from the points therein, as it's quite common knowledge what goes on in the MOBA community. There are other participants in this thread who are agreeing with this also, but Wing only aims his indignation in my direction. Not that I care, it's only to point out the genuineness of his argument just doesn't exist.


I think some of the objections to the communication issues are from the 9/11 thread, which is a debate thread. It could be that people are sensitive to disagreeable topics and contentious discussion. In which case could decide that the off-topic forum cannot have controversial topics. The way I see it, the posting of that topic was inciting the response that it got, and I don't see that anyone should feel bad about it. I'm sure the same thing would happen if a topic was called "Abortion- is it right?." Let's not post that topic.  :P


Even as the subject of many of Wing's posts, I have felt no anxiety nor stress over what he has written, so I wonder how someone else could be so injured over it? Yes, I have called his conspiracy ramblings crazy talk, I have directly addressed the unscientific, uneducated, and illogical conclusions of that thread, and I have replied to many of his psychobabble postings quite directly, but I am very careful to address the "facts," behavior, and not the person. I wholeheartedly admit that I enjoyed that discussion, and I can understand why some people would not want to read it.


If he himself is feeling any anxiety, it's because he's internalized that criticism, not because I have labeled him a horrible person or something. Which I haven't. I don't know if he's horrible. As a gamer, with his self-admitted rage problems, I know we couldn't ever play together. That's the only thing I know about him for sure.


So yes, I think we can peacefully exist for time slices, probably by trying for the "no chat" suggestion. We should each try and ignore the other, just like LOL or whatever your favorite game is, with the knowledge that neither of us will have any beneficial effect on each other or anyone else. Great idea for forum software: an ignore button that hides all postings!


In other news, I just tried to install Smite, and it came up with a window asking me if I wanted to install "prerequisite software" without telling me what it is. Because this is free, I'm immediately thinking spyware and adware. So I'm not going to install it.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 11:43:34 AM by Cyborg »
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #482 on: March 01, 2014, 11:58:21 AM »
In other news, I just tried to install Smite, and it came up with a window asking me if I wanted to install "prerequisite software" without telling me what it is. Because this is free, I'm immediately thinking spyware and adware. So I'm not going to install it.
It's just trying to ward.
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #483 on: March 01, 2014, 12:33:04 PM »
In other news, I just tried to install Smite, and it came up with a window asking me if I wanted to install "prerequisite software" without telling me what it is. Because this is free, I'm immediately thinking spyware and adware. So I'm not going to install it.
Heh, I know that is extremely vague. But it's simply a bundling of the Flash player so that Smite (and Tribes) can play Youtube videos and Twitch streams from within the client.


However, I ABSOLUTELY agree that it should tell you what it is and why. Hi-Rez isn't exactly known for being exhaustive in their games. Most of their communication happens directly to the community via forums, Reddit, Twitter etc. So yeah...I dunno what is the worst :P
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #484 on: March 01, 2014, 01:10:47 PM »
I think some of the objections to the communication issues are from the 9/11 thread, which is a debate thread. It could be that people are sensitive to disagreeable topics and contentious discussion. In which case could decide that the off-topic forum cannot have controversial topics.
I certainly don't think any good would come from our taking a "least common denominator" approach where everything has to pass the most sensitive person's sensitivity filter. 

At the same time we each have an individual responsibility to practice reasonable self-restraint if this community's going to be a nice place to be.  I haven't had the time for a few months now to really be a part of it to know how things are going.  Anyway, I don't think the problem I'm noticing is really in the mode of interaction so much as the duration of the interaction (combined with the mode).  Specifically, it seems to continue well beyond the point at which any genuine chance existed of either party being convinced of the other's position.  If the other side keeps firing then there's some need to continue not letting it stand (in the eyes of bystanders) but I think a mutual cease-fire is a better solution there than just continuing the show.

In other words, I don't think banning more topics is productive, but since we're not really going to solve the world's problems by these discussions I think they can be considered to have run their course when new argument stops in favor of repetition.

Quote
The way I see it, the posting of that topic was inciting the response that it got
That's a fair point.  The pot boiled because it was heated.


Quote
Great idea for forum software: an ignore button that hides all postings!
While I think it's a shame for any of us to reach that level with anyone else here, the function exists:

1) Click "Profile" (on the row starting with Home, Help, Search, etc)
2) Mouseover "Modify Profile" (on line starting with Profile Info)
3) In that list, click on "Buddies/Ignore List..."
4) Click on "Edit Ignore List"
5) Next to "Member:" type in the name and click Add

I'm not sure exactly what it does, but I believe the "Hide messages posted by members on my ignore list." option (from another screen) is on by default.
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Offline Cyborg

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #485 on: March 01, 2014, 01:24:53 PM »
Trying out the ignore feature. It should solve it for everybody. And it's no problem for me, I use the ignore button inside moba's all the time.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #486 on: March 01, 2014, 08:35:26 PM »
To call a community a pile of dung or a bunch of toxic, spoiled brats is not an absolute statement about the human worthiness of every single person playing. It's a statement about the collective value of the community. You might have some very nice players, but the average behavior of the community is toxic. Do any of you read the forums? Do you play these games? These are not pleasant places to be.

Aye, this.   Anyone taking insult from this one is perceiving the statement wrong.   I say this because I use this sort of statement all the time.  The fighting game community, for example.  I often say that the "pro" group is all "a bunch of nasty jerks".  I say this OFTEN.  But it's a blanket statement, and is meant to be more of a generalization, having to do with the group AS A WHOLE. Of COURSE it doesnt mean literally every single individual in there, as I have met a few friendly ones.  But the vast majority are definitely not friendly, so my statement holds.

It's the same with the moba thing, and this sort of statement is used often, not just by me. And I have to agree with it, the communities in most mobas really are absolute garbage.  I sure as heck never believe this about every single individual, as I often do find people in these that are fun to play with and arent jerks.  But when the asshats outnumber the good guys as incredibly much as they do, well.... yeah, it's NOT a good community.  It's a bloody horrible one.

Just makes the good, friendly players that much more valuable.

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #487 on: March 02, 2014, 05:00:23 AM »
Fair enough :P I think most of my experience with MOBA communities come from SMITE, which is friendlier than most, so I guess I don't see it as bad as most others do. We definitely have our fair share of buttheads, but they're not that common. It's kind of the other way around. Whereas you expect to have the occasional game in LoL without someone shouting at you, you expect to the have the occasional game WITH someone shouting at you in SMITE.
 
I guess it's just a matter of time, though, before the community grows large enough for the toxicity to take over.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #488 on: March 02, 2014, 07:40:54 AM »
Fair enough :P I think most of my experience with MOBA communities come from SMITE, which is friendlier than most, so I guess I don't see it as bad as most others do. We definitely have our fair share of buttheads, but they're not that common. It's kind of the other way around. Whereas you expect to have the occasional game in LoL without someone shouting at you, you expect to the have the occasional game WITH someone shouting at you in SMITE.
 
I guess it's just a matter of time, though, before the community grows large enough for the toxicity to take over.

A reason for less screaming in Smite has occurred to me:  It's very hard to type when you have to be moving around entirely with the WASD keys and such.  In the others you can do a bit of very quick typing after clicking to give your character a move order.

Or at least that's my theory, which I came up with just now.

It does seem dependent on the game though.  Dota has always been the absolute most toxic as I've seen it, followed closely by LoL.  Infinite Crisis hasnt been bad about it, and neither has Dawngate.   Aint seen too much in Smite.... every now and then I might witness some in videos or streams, but not TOO much. 

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #489 on: March 02, 2014, 11:26:12 AM »
SMITE also has that nifty VGS system that you tend to use much more than typing, and the voices there simply provide a friendlier atmosphere. I mean, a "VR2" (Retreat middle lane!) is conveyed more as a warning than "ffs dude, r mid!" which stirs up toxicity.
 
I dunno, but I think it's a contributing part.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #490 on: March 02, 2014, 08:51:32 PM »
SMITE also has that nifty VGS system that you tend to use much more than typing, and the voices there simply provide a friendlier atmosphere. I mean, a "VR2" (Retreat middle lane!) is conveyed more as a warning than "ffs dude, r mid!" which stirs up toxicity.
 
I dunno, but I think it's a contributing part.

Yeah, that too.

Can never remember the blasted things myself.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #491 on: March 03, 2014, 12:55:54 PM »
Well, Strife has christened itself "The MOBA for people scared of MOBAs".

Does it really measure up to those standards?

I played a game with my best friend a couple days ago. I'll tell you a little about my friend first. He's classically horrible at these kinds of games. He does not like confrontation or heavily competitive environments. He also isn't the kind of person to put thousands of hours into a competitive game, but would be more likely to do so with a single player TBS or RPG. What will typically happen when I talk him into playing one of these kinds of games, which has happened many times in our 10+ year friendship, is that he will become angry, frustrated, and there have ever been times where he's basically thrown the keyboard across the room because he gets so tired of dealing with the stress and environment of this genre.

Some things I've noticed that bother him the most.

1. The critical nature of the game, he doesn't like being criticized. He handles it very badly.
2. He is often horribly under leveled because he has no concept of sustainability or map positioning, which means he's often missing important opportunities for experience.
3. He can't last hit very well.
4. He doesn't stick with the game long enough to know all the heroes, their abilities, and what they do, so he gets frustrated when someone kills him and he has no idea why.
5. He hates going back to town over and over after being badly harassed or ganked often by the enemy team.
6. He doesn't like/understand the support role which is often relegated to him because of his lack of experience with the game. He doesn't like or understand how to place wards effectively etc.

Did Strife address any of these things? Rather well actually.

1. Talking to the other team is impossible until the game ends, so no trash talk from that angle. In addition, your own team can't see each individual member's deaths (or even kills), so it's much more difficult to say nasty things or blame a specific person for the loss.
2. Since, with the personal courier system and the out-of-combat regen mechanic, one never has to go back to town, there was little opportunity to miss experience.
3. Last hits weren't a problem, I did all of that for him.
4. The Strife team has kept the heroes low, around 15-20, and they don't plan on increasing it that much over time. In addition, the heroes themselves seem pretty simple and easy to understand. Compare this to basically every other MOBA where 50 heroes is the least you'll see, and over 100 is normal, with new ones coming weekly.
5. See point 2.
6. Wards don't exist and there's no need for the classical support because "hard roles" have been removed from the game.

Even Smite doesn't address most of these issues. Just got done playing the second game with my friend of Smite and now he's underleveled, underfarmed, and fuming again (we have no chance). So despite the perceived similarity between Strife and some of the other MOBAs, the differences it does have are actually extremely meaningful where it counts.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 12:58:12 PM by Wingflier »
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #492 on: March 03, 2014, 09:28:38 PM »
So basically Strife is to Smite what Smite is to other MOBAs? Smite has already been accused of being too "dumbed down" and too "casual". I'm imagining that hardcore LoL/DotA nerds are going to apecrap over Strife, considering how they've treated Smite.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #493 on: March 03, 2014, 10:11:38 PM »
So basically Strife is to Smite what Smite is to other MOBAs? Smite has already been accused of being too "dumbed down" and too "casual". I'm imagining that hardcore LoL/DotA nerds are going to apecrap over Strife, considering how they've treated Smite.
Oh yeah, they have.

I was looking at the user reviews on some of the Youtube videos and it was absolutely incredible the amount of hatred it got from League of Legends players.

Typically though, I find this to be less of a case of people finding the game to be too "dumbed down" and "casual", and more of a case of them not liking the idea of their game being subjected to worthy competition. It's fanboism at it's finest.

You can kind of imagine. It's the same way in which football fans often talk smack about baseball fans, and baseball fans talk smack about hockey fans etc. Now imagine if American football had some actual competition in terms of a sport which could potentially overtake it in popularity? There would be a similar level of backlash I think.

It really says nothing about the quality of the game. If anything, the mere fact that there is such hatred of it means that the developers are doing something right.

I haven't seen as much hatred from the DotA community as the LoL community. I think DotA players don't feel threatened by it, it's clearly focusing on the on the casual crowd. Most the players I've met on there are LoL players as well. Occasionally you'll find a DotA player, you can tell because they're better ;p
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Offline Misery

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #494 on: March 04, 2014, 08:06:42 AM »
So basically Strife is to Smite what Smite is to other MOBAs? Smite has already been accused of being too "dumbed down" and too "casual". I'm imagining that hardcore LoL/DotA nerds are going to apecrap over Strife, considering how they've treated Smite.
Oh yeah, they have.

I was looking at the user reviews on some of the Youtube videos and it was absolutely incredible the amount of hatred it got from League of Legends players.

Typically though, I find this to be less of a case of people finding the game to be too "dumbed down" and "casual", and more of a case of them not liking the idea of their game being subjected to worthy competition. It's fanboism at it's finest.

You can kind of imagine. It's the same way in which football fans often talk smack about baseball fans, and baseball fans talk smack about hockey fans etc. Now imagine if American football had some actual competition in terms of a sport which could potentially overtake it in popularity? There would be a similar level of backlash I think.

It really says nothing about the quality of the game. If anything, the mere fact that there is such hatred of it means that the developers are doing something right.

I haven't seen as much hatred from the DotA community as the LoL community. I think DotA players don't feel threatened by it, it's clearly focusing on the on the casual crowd. Most the players I've met on there are LoL players as well. Occasionally you'll find a DotA player, you can tell because they're better ;p

Oh, I can bet there'll be equal hatred from the Dota players.  There's only one difference:  The LoL players are more vocal (and annoying) about it.  And I say this as someone who enjoys both games.  The Dota ones, instead of insults, tend to approach other games with absolute disdain.  "It's not Dota, it cant be a REAL game for REAL players, so I'm not even going to talk about it" is typically the attitude that I've seen the most frequently from that group. Same negativity, but they seem to sorta wait for people to walk into it instead of stabbing outward with it.  I also note that some of them tend to get really BAFFLED if you tell them you play more than one game.  Like the idea of playing Dota AND something else is like this mindblowing bit of 7th-dimensional quantum physics.  It entertains me to no end.

As for Strife though.... I'll be interested to see just what happens with it.  A moba that isnt "complicated" enough tends to have more trouble than those that are, because..... because. 

That being said, it's got some cool ideas, it uses my personal favorite style of both combat and farming in these (more frequent abilities, less utter obsession with last-hits, which it seems to do in a way very similar to that of Dawngate), the map looks pretty good, and that giant monkey thing is utterly hilarious.  And picking your character BEFORE entering a match!  Agh, I wish ALL of the others had a mode that let you do this. 

I do hope they expand the roster a bit though, but that's just me.

Sadly, I cannot try it yet.  Bloody betas and their bloody invites....