Author Topic: Moba balance comparison, please comment  (Read 102879 times)

Offline Riabi

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #450 on: February 26, 2014, 07:34:51 AM »
Wow, this thread has gotten REALLY off topic. I mean I know it's Arcen, but....

Anyway, any news on Strife?

Anyone looking forward to Heroes of the Storm?

Offline Misery

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #451 on: February 26, 2014, 10:46:16 AM »
Wow, this thread has gotten REALLY off topic. I mean I know it's Arcen, but....

Anyway, any news on Strife?

Anyone looking forward to Heroes of the Storm?

If it didn't randomly launch off topic a few times, I'd be worried that I had somehow found some fake version of the site  ;D


Strife, hmm, I got to see some of it over the weekend, a Twitch streamer that I follow did a bunch with it, though he stuck mostly to players-VS-AI matches (probably for good reason).  The game as a whole looks *alot* like LoL in terms of how things work, but.... that only says so much, because damn near every moba (except Smite) tends to look like that to me.  Ya really have to dive into these properly to see what really makes them stand out, and I just cant test this one out yet.  So mostly Dawngate for me for now, though I did just patch up Smite earlier, after my previous patch attempt apparantly got corrupted, because computers.  At least the damn connection is finally repaired.

Heroes of the Storm I'd looooooove to try out, as it's the one that looks really genuinely different even just viewing it while knowing hardly anything about it.   They seem to really be going in a different direction with that one.   Aint heard much of anything related to a beta with that one, aside from there being a vague signup thing on the Battle.Net site.  I'm expecting it to be like Hearthstone where I dont get to try it for quite awhile.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #452 on: February 26, 2014, 03:57:49 PM »
Wow, this thread has gotten REALLY off topic. I mean I know it's Arcen, but....

Anyway, any news on Strife?

Anyone looking forward to Heroes of the Storm?

If it didn't randomly launch off topic a few times, I'd be worried that I had somehow found some fake version of the site  ;D


Strife, hmm, I got to see some of it over the weekend, a Twitch streamer that I follow did a bunch with it, though he stuck mostly to players-VS-AI matches (probably for good reason).  The game as a whole looks *alot* like LoL in terms of how things work, but.... that only says so much, because damn near every moba (except Smite) tends to look like that to me.  Ya really have to dive into these properly to see what really makes them stand out, and I just cant test this one out yet.  So mostly Dawngate for me for now, though I did just patch up Smite earlier, after my previous patch attempt apparantly got corrupted, because computers.  At least the damn connection is finally repaired.

Heroes of the Storm I'd looooooove to try out, as it's the one that looks really genuinely different even just viewing it while knowing hardly anything about it.   They seem to really be going in a different direction with that one.   Aint heard much of anything related to a beta with that one, aside from there being a vague signup thing on the Battle.Net site.  I'm expecting it to be like Hearthstone where I dont get to try it for quite awhile.
That's kind of ironic, because of all the MOBAs I've played, Smite is probably the most like LoL (haven't played Dawngate).

Here are some striking similarities:

-Simple design
-Pre-defined hero roles and lanes
-Jungle buffs
-The hero rotation and "grind-to-play" monetary system
-Summoner Spells
-Very few active items
-Inhibitor/Phoenix Respawns
-Dragon/Rosh almost exactly the same
-Jungler ganks the lanes
-AP Mid
-Carry + support one lane, bruiser in the other
-Wards/Sentry wards
-Almost the exact same AP/AD ratio system

In fact the only two major differences I can find between Smite and LoL is that Smite is in "third person" and that last hits aren't necessary for gold. Granted, these are fairly big differences, but nowhere near the differences between DotA/Strife and LoL.

Strife for example:

1. Gold shared in the lane
2. Jungle buffs completely removed
3. No pre-defined roles
4. No pre-defined lane setups
5. Jungler not required
6. Out-of-combat regen
7. Personal invincible courier
8. "Pet" system
9. All content unlocked at the beginning (no grind to play)
10. No wards
11. Addition of the vision towers
12. Roshan/Nashor equivalent gives you a giant siege monster
13. Many active items
14. Inhibitor doesn't respawn (pretty important)
15. The AD/AP aspect has been completely removed/redone

I'm also excited to see what Heroes of the Storm (I just noticed that it has the same initials as Heart of the Swarm, I wonder if that was coincidence) has to offer.
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Offline Cyborg

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #453 on: February 26, 2014, 07:01:42 PM »
Of course, none of this excuses things like racial epithets and homophobic comments.  Those sorts of things rather are a sign of a jackass.   Yet even still, that may not always be the case.  An angry individual sorta loses common sense, and when not thinking clearly they may do things that normally they would never, ever do (and often will regret later).  That's just what anger can do to someone.


Hopefully this post made sense, I've been kinda spaced out all day (more than usual, that is), so it might not.


You mentioned having moments where you go berserk and throw things. I spoke to one of my prior girlfriends about this very thing. What seems normal for you is extremely disturbing for me. I don't understand why people throw things or why people fly into rages. I just don't do those things. Sure, I get angry, I get frustrated, but I don't feel the urge to start punching walls and throwing things. We just have fundamentally separate expectations and assumptions about what's acceptable when you're angry. And for me, epithets are never okay. Ever.
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #454 on: February 26, 2014, 07:29:39 PM »
I'm mentally unstable, and even I don't throw things. When I lose control, I at most bash the desk.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #455 on: February 26, 2014, 07:47:34 PM »
You mentioned having moments where you go berserk and throw things. I spoke to one of my prior girlfriends about this very thing. What seems normal for you is extremely disturbing for me. I don't understand why people throw things or why people fly into rages. I just don't do those things. Sure, I get angry, I get frustrated, but I don't feel the urge to start punching walls and throwing things. We just have fundamentally separate expectations and assumptions about what's acceptable when you're angry. And for me, epithets are never okay. Ever.
I also tend to respond very poorly to some situations; I don't throw stuff nowadays (though I certainly tore stuff up as a teenager) and I was never in the habit of insulting other people (much less via slurs or epithets or whatever), but I'm certainly capable of flying off the handle and just hitting the power button on the computer if something really annoys me.  It happens a lot less often nowadays and I don't think I'd do that if some MOBA team were depending on me at the moment, but it's another reason I've not ventured into those waters.  FWIW I wouldn't abuse anyone else there, but quitting is a pretty nasty thing to do too.

That kind of "rage" (for lack of a better term, or perhaps it fits just fine) is a great flaw of mine and I certainly don't make excuses for it.  I don't want to be that kind of person.  I've tried pretty hard over the years to change it, not only for the above reasons but because it ties into my extreme sensitivity to certain noises and distractions (which came into full swing in high school and made it pretty hellish, frankly). 

And I've managed incremental improvement over the years, thankfully.  Getting married and having children certainly helped by 'turning up the volume" on who I already was and making me face more fully what I didn't like about myself and the consequences it had for myself and others.  But the problem's still there, and I don't see any particular reason to believe it will go away.

Does that make me an awful person?  Depends on the measuring stick, and each of us has a different one.  By mine, the answer is basically "yes, but most people are probably pretty seriously messed up in one way or another, so don't beat yourself up about it".  I'm grateful to have found a way through life thus far that's led to a happy family and (generally) happy customers.  For now, that's the best I can do.

Anyway, on the sorts of MOBA-player behavior you were condemning earlier I agree that it's flatly unacceptable.  And for the people doing that who actually justify their behavior as acceptable, and do not seek to right their wrongs... yea, that kind of person, I imagine, is probably a general negative to most/all the people in their lives.  People will offend other people, I see that as inevitable, but a general refusal to seek reconciliation or a tolerable compromise leads to catastrophic runaway effects.

Even for someone who doesn't flaws that serious, there's the matter of dealing with people who do.  If offense turns into long-term bitterness it can lead to disease, difficulty in relationships, etc.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #456 on: February 26, 2014, 08:22:26 PM »
Of course, none of this excuses things like racial epithets and homophobic comments.  Those sorts of things rather are a sign of a jackass.   Yet even still, that may not always be the case.  An angry individual sorta loses common sense, and when not thinking clearly they may do things that normally they would never, ever do (and often will regret later).  That's just what anger can do to someone.


Hopefully this post made sense, I've been kinda spaced out all day (more than usual, that is), so it might not.


You mentioned having moments where you go berserk and throw things. I spoke to one of my prior girlfriends about this very thing. What seems normal for you is extremely disturbing for me. I don't understand why people throw things or why people fly into rages. I just don't do those things. Sure, I get angry, I get frustrated, but I don't feel the urge to start punching walls and throwing things. We just have fundamentally separate expectations and assumptions about what's acceptable when you're angry. And for me, epithets are never okay. Ever.

Well, this is the way I look at it is this:  sure, I can be kinda destructive when angry, but.... in the end, nobody really cares if I smash up a few random things that I personally own (and I only do this if I'm *really* angry, which is rare, otherwise I might just knock things off the desk and bang on it).  It doesnt cause any "major" damage to anything, and more importantly, it doesnt hurt anyone.  It's that second part that's important;  not only am I utterly non-violent with others, but I dont even get verbal with them.  So very many people, when angry, will tend to take it out on others nearby without even realizing it.  They get mean, start making nasty comments, start pointing out and then exaggerating perceived flaws, start yelling about all sorts of things, start being insulting.... stuff like that.  So very many people do this.   And of course then you get the ones that get physically abusive, which..... yeah, that's a whole other sack of toads.  But I dont do any of this.

In the end, it's sorta just a way of venting, which is something that pretty much everyone needs to do in some form or other, wether they realize it or not.   And when I think about it, I have to wonder just how much of that kind of behavior online can be attributed to that.  People going online into these when in a bad mood, and then taking it out on everyone there.  I can see this being the case often, actually, particularly considering the bizarro viewpoint that some people have about online interactions where "it's not real life", which..... has always baffled me, but ALOT of people tend to think that way about dealing with others on the Net.  So it becomes an even easier place to make a jerk of yourself.   I always hate that whole idea, it seems bloody stupid to me.


I've forgotten what else I was gonna say, not that this is a surprise.  Ugh, it's too early (late?) for me to be thinking deep thoughts at the moment that dont involve caffiene.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #457 on: February 26, 2014, 08:56:27 PM »
Quote
That kind of "rage" (for lack of a better term, or perhaps it fits just fine) is a great flaw of mine and I certainly don't make excuses for it.  I don't want to be that kind of person.  I've tried pretty hard over the years to change it, not only for the above reasons but because it ties into my extreme sensitivity to certain noises and distractions (which came into full swing in high school and made it pretty hellish, frankly). 

Does that make me an awful person?  Depends on the measuring stick, and each of us has a different one.  By mine, the answer is basically "yes, but most people are probably pretty seriously messed up in one way or another, so don't beat yourself up about it".  I'm grateful to have found a way through life thus far that's led to a happy family and (generally) happy customers.  For now, that's the best I can do.
This paragraph kind of baffles me. Having an anger problem that you're working on fixing makes you an awful person?

Holy cow.

I think a lot of people are in your situation. They know they have an anger problem and they're working their best within reason to fix that character flaw. I just disagree with you (and Cyborg) apparently that this makes them bad people. I have the utmost respect for people who know they have a problem, and though it may not disappear overnight (what problem does), are doing their best to fix it with whatever tools they have at their disposal.

Sometimes problems like anger, depression, frustration, sadness, etc. are not so easily fixed. Some people spend their whole lifetimes working out the solutions to these very human conditions. On some level every person experiences them to some degree, but to be a product of these is simply to be human, not awful.

Outside of MOBAs I'm generally a very well-liked and accepted person. I have a lot of friends at school and people who seem to look up to me. I get along with most of my teachers and even spend time with several of them outside of class. I am generally very well-mannered and spoken to other people around me. When I play MOBAs though, my aggressive/angry side sometimes comes out, and I occasionally take this out on my team. Does the tendency to sometimes become angry or irrational when I'm typically kind and compassionate (especially when I'm working to change the former) make me a bad person? Good heavens, I hope not.
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Offline Cyborg

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #458 on: February 26, 2014, 09:29:46 PM »

But the problem's still there, and I don't see any particular reason to believe it will go away.


Does that make me an awful person?  Depends on the measuring stick, and each of us has a different one.  By mine, the answer is basically "yes, but most people are probably pretty seriously messed up in one way or another, so don't beat yourself up about it". 


Anyway, on the sorts of MOBA-player behavior you were condemning earlier I agree that it's flatly unacceptable.  And for the people doing that who actually justify their behavior as acceptable, and do not seek to right their wrongs... yea, that kind of person, I imagine, is probably a general negative to most/all the people in their lives.


Even for someone who doesn't flaws that serious, there's the matter of dealing with people who do.  If offense turns into long-term bitterness it can lead to disease, difficulty in relationships, etc.


I trimmed a lot of what you wrote in favor of some of the points that seemed most important, but overall this was a good post. I wonder how you deal with your sensitivities and have children. Aren't children incredibly loud? My questions about rage behavior are not intended as a true or false statement on whether or not someone is 'worthy' as a human being. I'm talking about ragers who play video games- specifically moba's- and the misery they inflict on everyone around them.




Quote from: Misery
in the end, nobody really cares if I smash up a few random things that I personally own (and I only do this if I'm *really* angry, which is rare, otherwise I might just knock things off the desk and bang on it). 


Are you sure nobody cares? The girl in question thought the same thing, until I told her that I felt personally threatened when items go flying, and it makes me uncomfortable in my own space. It raises the fight or flight reaction of the people around you, whether you acknowledge it or not. Does the person have to defend themselves, even against inadvertent flying objects? Does the person have to defend others, such as children?


Peeling away the skin of this onion, maybe the "jerk" determination only exists in relation to how the rage behavior affects other people.


We all come from different backgrounds. Keith is sensitive to sounds for whatever reason. I am the antithesis of rage. I don't rage, and I avoid people that do. I am uncomfortable around people that throw things, yell, scream, and swear, and generally tantrum when they are angry. I don't hang around friends who do that, and I don't date women who do that. I don't want rage in my games. And in my personal opinion, the rage I am talking about specifically in this thread goes above and beyond frustration and ruins the game.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #459 on: February 26, 2014, 09:39:17 PM »
This paragraph kind of baffles me. Having an anger problem that you're working on fixing makes you an awful person?
It depends on what you mean.  I say "yes" (given the degree of the anger problem in question) because I do not want to act as if the problem is excusable or somehow not my responsibility.  It doesn't get me depressed or whatever, but if I refused to take responsibility for it (or to acknowledge it as something for which responsibility must be taken) then it would probably become worse rather than better.

In other words, I'd rather make an honest measurement against what I know a well-adjusted person can be like, rather than lower the standard to meet what I actually am :)  Others are free to apply different standards, of course.
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Offline Cyborg

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #460 on: February 26, 2014, 09:42:55 PM »
In other words, I'd rather make an honest measurement against what I know a well-adjusted person can be like, rather than lower the standard to meet what I actually am :)  Others are free to apply different standards, of course.


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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #461 on: February 26, 2014, 10:00:19 PM »
You're free to use whatever method you like in order to classify yourself or fix your problems, but overwhelming psychological studies have shown that a negative self-image (i.e., I'm an awful person) is pretty much the exact opposite of the kind of mind state a person requires in order to efficiently deal with their underlying issues.

Noble as it may be, it's ironically counter-productive to the task at hand. Many times, a negative self-image is what causes the anger in the first place.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #462 on: February 27, 2014, 04:40:11 AM »

Are you sure nobody cares? The girl in question thought the same thing, until I told her that I felt personally threatened when items go flying, and it makes me uncomfortable in my own space. It raises the fight or flight reaction of the people around you, whether you acknowledge it or not. Does the person have to defend themselves, even against inadvertent flying objects? Does the person have to defend others, such as children?


Ah, but who said I do it in the presence of others?  That'd be kinda dumb, as it might smack someone.  I'm the rare sort that cant even squish a bug without feeling bad about it for a week (no, seriously, I have to pick the damn things up and take them outside), so I sure as heck wouldnt hurt anyone.

Friends of mine simply know I have a short fuse.... I dont get violent in their presence.  Oh, they'll sometimes find out later that I launched some random object at the wall and thus broke it, but.... par for the course, really.  They know me well enough to know that I'm not a threat to anyone. I'm not breaking anyone else's stuff, so to them it's a non-issue.

And in all honesty, if someone DID have some major problem with it, well.... they can bloody well go somewhere else, is what they can do.  I do tend to have that attitude of "I'll do what I want, thanks".... call it "spoiled child syndrome".... and really, if others have a problem with the way I am, it's THEIR problem.  I am fine with the way I am.... I'm always in control, I care about others, and I never hurt anyone... that's about all I need.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #463 on: February 27, 2014, 09:47:28 AM »
You're free to use whatever method you like in order to classify yourself or fix your problems, but overwhelming psychological studies have shown that a negative self-image (i.e., I'm an awful person) is pretty much the exact opposite of the kind of mind state a person requires in order to efficiently deal with their underlying issues.

Noble as it may be, it's ironically counter-productive to the task at hand. Many times, a negative self-image is what causes the anger in the first place.
It may be difficult for you to understand or believe, but I don't actually have a negative self-image.  I think I'm seriously flawed in some important respects, but I don't think that makes me a net loss (much less a total loss), if I'm careful to play to my strengths.

The reason I brought up my personal example, in fact, was to offer some support for your case that someone might behave inexcusably in some situations (the folks who get abusive with their team in a MOBA) but still be a genuine benefit to others outside of that.  And not just because of social contract or fear of consequences or whatever.

That said, some of the ways that's put forward (like "it's just venting" or "tons of people do it") sound like the behavior actually is excusable in a sort of ends-justify-the-means way, and I don't agree with that.  Do what you gotta do, but be honest about what it really is.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #464 on: February 27, 2014, 10:09:06 AM »
Aren't children incredibly loud?
I related ths conversation to my wife, and we laughed quite a lot over that question.

Oh yes, extraordinarily noisy.

For that matter even before our first child was born it was a major adjustment for my wife to live in the same house as me day after day.  But we've found ways to accommodate both my need to avoid certain stimuli and my family's need to not walk on eggshells.

There's various specific techniques and methods, but the main principle is mutual acceptance.  I accept that they deserve an environment free of anger flare-ups (or fear of the same), and they accept that I'm worth the adjustments to keep my environment from being harder than it has to be.  Doesn't always work on either side, but that's what apology and forgiveness is for.


And in the end I guess I wouldn't be nearly as deterred by the legendary snake-pit reputation of MOBA personal interaction if people actually did take responsibility for the giving or taking of offense.  But it doesn't seem that there's really much room for reconciliation in such cases.  No "inertia", in a sense, in that once someone is offended they basically just fly away and there's no particular counter-pressure to motivate them to resolve the conflict rather than simply flee from it.
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