Author Topic: Moba balance comparison, please comment  (Read 102716 times)

Offline Billick

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #435 on: February 24, 2014, 03:27:25 PM »
I'm not going to respond to Cyborg because it feels like he's just attempting to start an argument with me.

What I will reiterate is that any time hardcore competition is involved, people's aggressive sides tend to come out. They *want* to win. This is pure Darwinian Evolution at work. Nobody is really immune to it, there are certain people who have learned to harness or control it better than others. You will not find a game as intellectually competitive as these MOBAs on the market, and if you do, I'll give you a medal. I don't think that this makes the MOBA community full of "toxic spoiled brats incapable of socialization".

I fully support Strife's attempt to make the community less toxic by removing vast elements of the game which cause people to become angry, or at least trigger that.

You can be competitive and still act like a decent human being.  And I strongly disagree that arranged team games are "hardcore competition".  It's pickup flag football.  If you're playing in the International, that's another thing altogether, but I doubt very many people playing in that treat their teammates like crap.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #436 on: February 24, 2014, 03:33:06 PM »
It's pickup flag football.
If trash talking in DotA had remotely the same potential physical consequences as trash talking in flag football, the difference would be night and day.

Not that you don't see trash talking in flag football, but it's of a different order of magnitude.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #437 on: February 24, 2014, 05:38:22 PM »
I'm not going to respond to Cyborg because it feels like he's just attempting to start an argument with me.

What I will reiterate is that any time hardcore competition is involved, people's aggressive sides tend to come out. They *want* to win. This is pure Darwinian Evolution at work. Nobody is really immune to it, there are certain people who have learned to harness or control it better than others. You will not find a game as intellectually competitive as these MOBAs on the market, and if you do, I'll give you a medal. I don't think that this makes the MOBA community full of "toxic spoiled brats incapable of socialization".

I fully support Strife's attempt to make the community less toxic by removing vast elements of the game which cause people to become angry, or at least trigger that.

You can be competitive and still act like a decent human being.  And I strongly disagree that arranged team games are "hardcore competition".  It's pickup flag football.  If you're playing in the International, that's another thing altogether, but I doubt very many people playing in that treat their teammates like crap.
I think if you had paid attention to some of the drama that happens to these professional MOBA teams, you may think otherwise. There is a lot of competition, mistreatment, and abuse that goes on behind the scenes, especially if somebody is under performing.

However, in terms of non-professional games, I think that unfortunately, you are imposing your own opinion or worldview onto the situation. Just because *YOU* think that it's a bunch of nerdy virgins playing a silly video game (obviously I'm being a bit dramatic), doesn't mean that within their minds, it's not the intellectual equivalent to the super bowl. Nobody can really argue that this genre has that effect on people. People REALLY want to win, at all costs. There's probably a million theories as to why, but regardless, they take it a lot more seriously than you seem to give them credit for.
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Offline Cyborg

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #438 on: February 24, 2014, 07:23:44 PM »
Just because *YOU* think that it's a bunch of nerdy virgins playing a silly video game


Straw man alert, straw man alert!


The point is, regardless of how much the game means to you, flying off the handle and abusing people is inappropriate and unwelcome. There is no justification in saying that's just natural human behavior. There's a lot of natural human behavior out there that is equally inappropriate. You even go on to say that it's "Darwinian" to be a jackhole, as if being competitive can justify being a jerk. I disagree. You can be competitive and be a good sport. You can be competitive and be positive with your teammates.
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Offline Billick

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #439 on: February 24, 2014, 08:04:16 PM »
Oh neat!  I have a "worldview" now! :o


The point is, regardless of how much the game means to you, flying off the handle and abusing people is inappropriate and unwelcome. There is no justification in saying that's just natural human behavior. There's a lot of natural human behavior out there that is equally inappropriate. You even go on to say that it's "Darwinian" to be a jackhole, as if being competitive can justify being a jerk. I disagree. You can be competitive and be a good sport. You can be competitive and be positive with your teammates.
This pretty much sums it up so I won't add anything.

Offline Misery

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #440 on: February 24, 2014, 08:42:24 PM »
Just because *YOU* think that it's a bunch of nerdy virgins playing a silly video game


Straw man alert, straw man alert!


The point is, regardless of how much the game means to you, flying off the handle and abusing people is inappropriate and unwelcome. There is no justification in saying that's just natural human behavior. There's a lot of natural human behavior out there that is equally inappropriate. You even go on to say that it's "Darwinian" to be a jackhole, as if being competitive can justify being a jerk. I disagree. You can be competitive and be a good sport. You can be competitive and be positive with your teammates.


Aye, this.   Definitely agreed.


That being said though, Wingflier is completely right about this one.  I'm familiar with competition of this sort (not just in Dota and whatnot) and....yeah.  Being on a team can often be WORSE than the crap you get normally.  It's the sort of crap that can end friendships or knock you into a horrible spiral of depression.  It happens, probably frequently.  Even in something like the International.  heck, I'd actually expect it to be worse than the norm at something like that.... all that money on the line!   The effect likely multiplies.

In many ways it's kinda sad and pathetic that it happens at all, but it still does happen.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #441 on: February 25, 2014, 03:15:27 AM »
Just because *YOU* think that it's a bunch of nerdy virgins playing a silly video game


Straw man alert, straw man alert!


The point is, regardless of how much the game means to you, flying off the handle and abusing people is inappropriate and unwelcome. There is no justification in saying that's just natural human behavior. There's a lot of natural human behavior out there that is equally inappropriate. You even go on to say that it's "Darwinian" to be a jackhole, as if being competitive can justify being a jerk. I disagree. You can be competitive and be a good sport. You can be competitive and be positive with your teammates.
As I said, that point was just being dramatic.

I completely agree, just because it's in our natures to be competitive, it doesn't justify the kind of behavior often seen in these situations. However, you're creating a straw man argument when you say that most the people who play these games are...let me find it, "toxic, spoiled brats marginally capable of accepted socialization". Most of these are just normal people put into an extremely high-tense competitive situation.

Once again, for the third time, I completely support Strife's attempts to make this game less toxic. I also completely agree that it's a problem. I just think that if you want to pigeonhole tens of millions of people into your own little dehumanizing box just to help you sleep at night, you're sadly mistaken.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 03:18:25 AM by Wingflier »
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Offline Misery

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #442 on: February 25, 2014, 03:37:25 AM »
Just because *YOU* think that it's a bunch of nerdy virgins playing a silly video game


Straw man alert, straw man alert!


The point is, regardless of how much the game means to you, flying off the handle and abusing people is inappropriate and unwelcome. There is no justification in saying that's just natural human behavior. There's a lot of natural human behavior out there that is equally inappropriate. You even go on to say that it's "Darwinian" to be a jackhole, as if being competitive can justify being a jerk. I disagree. You can be competitive and be a good sport. You can be competitive and be positive with your teammates.
As I said, that point was just being dramatic.

I completely agree, just because it's in our natures to be competitive, it doesn't justify the kind of behavior often seen in these situations. However, you're creating a straw man argument when you say that most the people who play these games are...let me find it, "toxic, spoiled brats marginally capable of accepted socialization". Most of these are just normal people put into an extremely high-tense competitive situation.

Totally agreed.   You dont have to be a complete asshat to begin with in order to act this way.  Perfectly reasonable, normally-friendly people can turn into shrieking jerkwads when playing these.  And I dont just mean the mobas.  Any genre can do it.  Heck, like the FPS genre, which among both PC and console gamers is infamous for getting lots of players, including kids, that do nothing but scream f-bombs into their headsets the whole time.

It's not the fault of the genre, the game, or the developers/designers that any of this happens.  It's the simple fault of it being a competetive game, and even moreso, being a team-based competetive game.


Offline Cyborg

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #443 on: February 25, 2014, 07:38:40 PM »
Just because *YOU* think that it's a bunch of nerdy virgins playing a silly video game


Straw man alert, straw man alert!


The point is, regardless of how much the game means to you, flying off the handle and abusing people is inappropriate and unwelcome. There is no justification in saying that's just natural human behavior. There's a lot of natural human behavior out there that is equally inappropriate. You even go on to say that it's "Darwinian" to be a jackhole, as if being competitive can justify being a jerk. I disagree. You can be competitive and be a good sport. You can be competitive and be positive with your teammates.
As I said, that point was just being dramatic.

I completely agree, just because it's in our natures to be competitive, it doesn't justify the kind of behavior often seen in these situations. However, you're creating a straw man argument when you say that most the people who play these games are...let me find it, "toxic, spoiled brats marginally capable of accepted socialization". Most of these are just normal people put into an extremely high-tense competitive situation.


A straw man tactic is where you assume a different proposition and argue against it, thereby giving the illusion that you have refuted an argument. It's not an opinion, like the one I hold, whereby I posit the community is rife with toxic, spoiled brats. You are saying that most of these people are just reacting to competition, and that they are not toxic individuals.


And we disagree. If a person were to go around acting like a jerk on their favorite game and then claim they're not, in fact, a jerk because they are nice in their everyday dealings, I would say that is just a mask of a part of their true personality. Maybe they are nice in their everyday behavior because that's how they get what they want. They are under some social contract to behave a certain way face-to-face that just doesn't exist online.


Summarized, if you say that they are decent people because part of their personality is decent, and you ignore the part where they are jerks, that is not a wash, for me. You are who you are, and maybe a part of you is something you don't want to see or acknowledge.

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Offline Misery

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #444 on: February 25, 2014, 10:12:46 PM »
Just because *YOU* think that it's a bunch of nerdy virgins playing a silly video game


Straw man alert, straw man alert!


The point is, regardless of how much the game means to you, flying off the handle and abusing people is inappropriate and unwelcome. There is no justification in saying that's just natural human behavior. There's a lot of natural human behavior out there that is equally inappropriate. You even go on to say that it's "Darwinian" to be a jackhole, as if being competitive can justify being a jerk. I disagree. You can be competitive and be a good sport. You can be competitive and be positive with your teammates.
As I said, that point was just being dramatic.

I completely agree, just because it's in our natures to be competitive, it doesn't justify the kind of behavior often seen in these situations. However, you're creating a straw man argument when you say that most the people who play these games are...let me find it, "toxic, spoiled brats marginally capable of accepted socialization". Most of these are just normal people put into an extremely high-tense competitive situation.


A straw man tactic is where you assume a different proposition and argue against it, thereby giving the illusion that you have refuted an argument. It's not an opinion, like the one I hold, whereby I posit the community is rife with toxic, spoiled brats. You are saying that most of these people are just reacting to competition, and that they are not toxic individuals.


And we disagree. If a person were to go around acting like a jerk on their favorite game and then claim they're not, in fact, a jerk because they are nice in their everyday dealings, I would say that is just a mask of a part of their true personality. Maybe they are nice in their everyday behavior because that's how they get what they want. They are under some social contract to behave a certain way face-to-face that just doesn't exist online.


Summarized, if you say that they are decent people because part of their personality is decent, and you ignore the part where they are jerks, that is not a wash, for me. You are who you are, and maybe a part of you is something you don't want to see or acknowledge.


Even that is subjective, though.  Most people can end up acting this way if they get angry enough, which is part of the problem.   Now, if someone goes into one of these and, with no provocation, starts acting like a jerk and insulting people, that's different.   But merely doing it out of sheer anger?  I cant see that as meaning much, other than that the person may need to learn better self-control.  Doesnt mean they're a jerk or a troll. 

Though it DOES mean that maybe also they should step away for a bit, instead of letting it get to them that much....

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #445 on: February 25, 2014, 10:54:30 PM »
Just because *YOU* think that it's a bunch of nerdy virgins playing a silly video game


Straw man alert, straw man alert!


The point is, regardless of how much the game means to you, flying off the handle and abusing people is inappropriate and unwelcome. There is no justification in saying that's just natural human behavior. There's a lot of natural human behavior out there that is equally inappropriate. You even go on to say that it's "Darwinian" to be a jackhole, as if being competitive can justify being a jerk. I disagree. You can be competitive and be a good sport. You can be competitive and be positive with your teammates.
As I said, that point was just being dramatic.

I completely agree, just because it's in our natures to be competitive, it doesn't justify the kind of behavior often seen in these situations. However, you're creating a straw man argument when you say that most the people who play these games are...let me find it, "toxic, spoiled brats marginally capable of accepted socialization". Most of these are just normal people put into an extremely high-tense competitive situation.


A straw man tactic is where you assume a different proposition and argue against it, thereby giving the illusion that you have refuted an argument. It's not an opinion, like the one I hold, whereby I posit the community is rife with toxic, spoiled brats. You are saying that most of these people are just reacting to competition, and that they are not toxic individuals.


And we disagree. If a person were to go around acting like a jerk on their favorite game and then claim they're not, in fact, a jerk because they are nice in their everyday dealings, I would say that is just a mask of a part of their true personality. Maybe they are nice in their everyday behavior because that's how they get what they want. They are under some social contract to behave a certain way face-to-face that just doesn't exist online.


Summarized, if you say that they are decent people because part of their personality is decent, and you ignore the part where they are jerks, that is not a wash, for me. You are who you are, and maybe a part of you is something you don't want to see or acknowledge.
Well, I guess according to my understanding your definition, everybody is a jerk, since we all have the POTENTIAL to be jerks, and put into the correct situation, often are.

The only real difference I see between the average MOBA player and the average person is that the MOBA player is putting themselves into that high-stress situation that most people don't experience in their every day lives. If you don't think that this happens all the time in other competitive environments, apparently you've never watched professional football or hockey.

I'll bet you most of these people are completely nice and upstanding citizens in their everyday lives. I just find it so ironic that you consider jerks to be people who, when removed from the average social situation (so like online anonymity), become cruel or nasty to others when, from my experience, you engage in that behavior all the time.


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Offline Cyborg

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #446 on: February 25, 2014, 10:57:14 PM »
Just because *YOU* think that it's a bunch of nerdy virgins playing a silly video game


Straw man alert, straw man alert!


The point is, regardless of how much the game means to you, flying off the handle and abusing people is inappropriate and unwelcome. There is no justification in saying that's just natural human behavior. There's a lot of natural human behavior out there that is equally inappropriate. You even go on to say that it's "Darwinian" to be a jackhole, as if being competitive can justify being a jerk. I disagree. You can be competitive and be a good sport. You can be competitive and be positive with your teammates.
As I said, that point was just being dramatic.

I completely agree, just because it's in our natures to be competitive, it doesn't justify the kind of behavior often seen in these situations. However, you're creating a straw man argument when you say that most the people who play these games are...let me find it, "toxic, spoiled brats marginally capable of accepted socialization". Most of these are just normal people put into an extremely high-tense competitive situation.


A straw man tactic is where you assume a different proposition and argue against it, thereby giving the illusion that you have refuted an argument. It's not an opinion, like the one I hold, whereby I posit the community is rife with toxic, spoiled brats. You are saying that most of these people are just reacting to competition, and that they are not toxic individuals.


And we disagree. If a person were to go around acting like a jerk on their favorite game and then claim they're not, in fact, a jerk because they are nice in their everyday dealings, I would say that is just a mask of a part of their true personality. Maybe they are nice in their everyday behavior because that's how they get what they want. They are under some social contract to behave a certain way face-to-face that just doesn't exist online.


Summarized, if you say that they are decent people because part of their personality is decent, and you ignore the part where they are jerks, that is not a wash, for me. You are who you are, and maybe a part of you is something you don't want to see or acknowledge.


Even that is subjective, though.  Most people can end up acting this way if they get angry enough, which is part of the problem.   Now, if someone goes into one of these and, with no provocation, starts acting like a jerk and insulting people, that's different.   But merely doing it out of sheer anger?  I cant see that as meaning much, other than that the person may need to learn better self-control.  Doesnt mean they're a jerk or a troll. 

Though it DOES mean that maybe also they should step away for a bit, instead of letting it get to them that much....


I'm not sure you mean. Even if they're angry, I think you have to look at what they're angry about. A videogame is not a good reason to start pulling out racial epithets, homophobic comments, and an all-out psychological war on your own team. I'm sure we all know the kind of rage I am talking about. I don't see how this kind of a game can provide that kind of... excuse... for the behavior that I'm describing.
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Offline Cyborg

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #447 on: February 25, 2014, 11:04:12 PM »
I'll bet you most of these people are completely nice and upstanding citizens in their everyday lives. I just find it so ironic that you consider jerks to be people who, when removed from the average social situation (so like online anonymity), become cruel or nasty to others when, from my experience, you engage in that behavior all the time.


Actually, I have encountered that precise social situation before, and I jump right in. Whether or not I'm on a forum doesn't change who I am. I consider crazy talk to be a sort of virus, where the very prevalence of it fuels its own legitimacy. If you don't challenge it at the root, if you don't challenge it when it comes out, it just allows the cancer. Take religion. If ReligionX was only believed by one person versus believed by 1 million persons, doesn't that change the legitimacy? Anyway, you bounced back, no need to hold a grudge.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #448 on: February 26, 2014, 12:08:14 AM »
I'll bet you most of these people are completely nice and upstanding citizens in their everyday lives. I just find it so ironic that you consider jerks to be people who, when removed from the average social situation (so like online anonymity), become cruel or nasty to others when, from my experience, you engage in that behavior all the time.


Actually, I have encountered that precise social situation before, and I jump right in. Whether or not I'm on a forum doesn't change who I am. I consider crazy talk to be a sort of virus, where the very prevalence of it fuels its own legitimacy. If you don't challenge it at the root, if you don't challenge it when it comes out, it just allows the cancer. Take religion. If ReligionX was only believed by one person versus believed by 1 million persons, doesn't that change the legitimacy? Anyway, you bounced back, no need to hold a grudge.
I don't have a grudge, I'm just a little fascinated by your explanation of when it's okay to be cruel and nasty to others.

So it's not okay to do in a super competitive environment, but it's okay to be ruthless when discussing religion or conspiracy theories? I personally agree with you that most religions are toxic and harmful to society, but even in that case, I engage the belief, not the person. I created my own secular club at my local University which is openly critical of religion, and we seek discussions, panels, and debates with the religious whenever possible. However, we at least try to make a distinction between the belief and the believer.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #449 on: February 26, 2014, 01:47:36 AM »
I'm not sure you mean. Even if they're angry, I think you have to look at what they're angry about. A videogame is not a good reason to start pulling out racial epithets, homophobic comments, and an all-out psychological war on your own team. I'm sure we all know the kind of rage I am talking about. I don't see how this kind of a game can provide that kind of... excuse... for the behavior that I'm describing.

Ah, but anything can cause anger.... videogames are merely one out of a bazillion examples.  It doesnt have to be something "deep" or truly important to cause rage.  Heck, my own mood is mostly tied to the weather.  It gets bad, and my mood becomes rather dark.  The worse it is, the more irritable I get.

And anger does not define someone's personality (unless they take it WAY too far).  I'm mostly a super-polite individual myself...  I dont freak out at people in-game, I dont freak out at people IRL ever, you'll never catch me being the one that yells at supermarket workers or whatever because of slight mistakes.  Instead, I'm the one that tries to be helpful and make THEIR day easier.

Yet even so, in an enraged state, I tend to go berserk, and will start randomly smashing things.  The only upside to this is that I will only throw/damage/break things that I own, I dont mess with anyone else's stuff.  It happens though regardless.  This combined with yelling and general shrieking.  And I can be set off by basically anything, particularly if I'm in a dark mood to begin with, as I've been all winter.

Does this change the fact that I'm polite and caring most of the time?  No, it does not.  And I think the same is true for most people.  I see friends do this sometimes.... change from someone friendly and kind, to someone mean who swears like a sailor, if they should get angered.  And in those cases it IS often in relation to gaming.   I notice that gamers as a whole tend to be an easily agitated group.


The reason though why I say that team-based games tend to cause it more often is simple.   In a single-player game, or a multiplayer game that is one-on-one, the player is fully in control of their side of things.  Whatever happens is a direct reflection on THEIR skill level, going up against whatever challenge is in front of them.  If a mistake is made?  It's THEIR mistake, and they can rectify it by increasing their skill.  And that skill can be relied on in future games, increasing their chances of winning.   But in a team game?  It doesnt work this way.  Your own personal skill level wont affect the whole game, but only a small percentage of it in most cases.  You can be a bloody amazing player, but if the rest of your team simply doesnt hold up, you will lose anyway.  And this frustrates people, as things outside of their control tends to.  It can be dramatically more irritating than any singleplayer or one-on-one situation, because you simply cant DO anything about it directly, and your own skill level sometimes simply stops mattering when this is happening.   Any team game can bring this on.  So the player begins yelling at them, insulting them, as their anger grows, because they lack any other way to deal with it, and cant simply vent it too easily.  Their teammates become even more convenient targets when they're seen as the core reason for overall failure.


Of course, none of this excuses things like racial epithets and homophobic comments.  Those sorts of things rather are a sign of a jackass.   Yet even still, that may not always be the case.  An angry individual sorta loses common sense, and when not thinking clearly they may do things that normally they would never, ever do (and often will regret later).  That's just what anger can do to someone.


Hopefully this post made sense, I've been kinda spaced out all day (more than usual, that is), so it might not.