Author Topic: Moba balance comparison, please comment  (Read 102563 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #420 on: February 21, 2014, 07:40:52 PM »
I still think it's going for a certain ratio of rage and annoyance, and then fitting victory ratios into that ;)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,108
Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #421 on: February 22, 2014, 01:17:57 AM »
Haha, you guys look at it from an entirely different perspective than I do, which is more akin to: All the noobs are coming, ANNIHILATE!

In all seriousness, after winning my first 4 MM games, things are starting to get a bit more difficult. There is a small bit of lag (so far) on their MM servers, but it's something I'm sure they'll fix relatively soon. They've been running the HoN servers for 3+ years now, so they've got quit a bit of experience with this.

Oh by the way, there's now a popular DotA tournament running Captain's Draft mode instead of the usual Captain's Pick mode. In other words, players have to pick from a randomly selected pool of 24 heroes instead of the default 90 something in the game.

As you can imagine, this makes for intense and epic games where unusual and funny combinations are being used, breaking the monotony of the established metagame.

You can watch Na'Vi using Pudge in the second set of games in the tournament. HILARIOUS fun.

Eh, still tempting, but still too iffy for me, even if the servers havent become black holes of lag yet.  I've just done WAY too many betas of all sorts and seen so very many of the possible problems that can suddenly appear to want to do it.


I still think it's going for a certain ratio of rage and annoyance, and then fitting victory ratios into that ;)

I swear it feels like they ALL do that.

Offline Wingflier

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,752
  • To add me on Steam, click the little Steam icon ^
Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #422 on: February 22, 2014, 02:08:02 AM »
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/try-the-moba-that-s-taking-on-league-of-legends-and-dota-2-free-next-weekend/1100-6417868/

Good article explaining S2's goals with Strife, and how it differs from some of the other common MOBAs. Also there's a link in there that talks about how they plan to deal with toxicity.

I think they've already done a pretty good job with it.

1. No battling over hero picks or roles (these have been removed by the MM system)
2. No battling over last hits
3. You can't see your teammates' deaths until the game is over
4. You can't chat with the enemy team until the game is over
5. Nobody is expected to buy wards or "support"

I think the Karma system is still in development so we'll see how that goes.
"Inner peace is the void of expectation. It is the absence of our shared desperation to feel a certain way."

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,108
Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #423 on: February 22, 2014, 06:29:00 AM »
1. No battling over hero picks or roles (these have been removed by the MM system)
2. No battling over last hits

Even if I hadnt already seen the other stuff about it, these two bits probably woulda won me over.  Both of these things are major reasons why I dont play Dota all that often.... it just has WAY too much trouble with both for my extremely non-existent patience level.  LoL isnt AS bad about it, but it's still bloody annoying as hell.

Quote
3. You can't see your teammates' deaths until the game is over

This one I kinda dont get.  Now, I understand it from the point of view related to the toxicity issue, but wont this cause some problems of it's own?  If you cant see teammate deaths, how are you to know if you're behind?  If you can still see an overall score instead of individual death listings, wont that still cause rage in many cases?  It's hardly a bad idea, but just seems a bit odd to me.

Quote
4. You can't chat with the enemy team until the game is over

.....why didn't the others think of this?

Quote
5. Nobody is expected to buy wards or "support"

Feh.  I actually like doing the support role.  Rescuing important teammates from certain doom at the last second, possibly then causing enemy deaths as a result, is satisfying as heck.   Stuff like that.   Though, the not-buying-wards bit is a very good thing;  Dawngate is currently the only one I know of that does away with that as well.

Offline Wingflier

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,752
  • To add me on Steam, click the little Steam icon ^
Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #424 on: February 22, 2014, 07:09:15 AM »
Quote
This one I kinda dont get.  Now, I understand it from the point of view related to the toxicity issue, but wont this cause some problems of it's own?  If you cant see teammate deaths, how are you to know if you're behind?  If you can still see an overall score instead of individual death listings, wont that still cause rage in many cases?  It's hardly a bad idea, but just seems a bit odd to me.
You need to understand the mind and attitude of an elitist. I should know. I often check the scores when we're losing horribly, and when I see those teammates that are 0-7 or 0-15, I start to get really angry, especially if I'm doing really well.

I typically won't say anything anymore, but for the longest time I would blame them and tell them to stop dying, or tell them to uninstall the game. I'm not the only one either, seeing someone who is doing horribly bad can cause many players to become negative or toxic towards them. Moonshine Fox has seen me doing this in Smite. I didn't say anything, but I was certainly aware of the feeders on my team.

Quote
Feh.  I actually like doing the support role.  Rescuing important teammates from certain doom at the last second, possibly then causing enemy deaths as a result, is satisfying as heck.   Stuff like that.   Though, the not-buying-wards bit is a very good thing;  Dawngate is currently the only one I know of that does away with that as well.
You can still play a support role, it's just not expected of you. There are heroes and items that heal or provide shields/buffs/armor, etc. However, typically when we think of "support", we think of somebody who never has any money, who is buying tons of wards, and who has much less impact on the game in terms of pure fighting power than the other players. This tradition has been removed I think.
"Inner peace is the void of expectation. It is the absence of our shared desperation to feel a certain way."

Offline Cyborg

  • Master Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,935
Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #425 on: February 22, 2014, 01:01:36 PM »
You need to understand the mind and attitude of an elitist. I should know. I often check the scores when we're losing horribly, and when I see those teammates that are 0-7 or 0-15, I start to get really angry, especially if I'm doing really well.

 ::)

Quote from: Wingflier
If you were looking for a casual experience where you weren't challenged at all, you probably wouldn't be playing a MOBA in the first place.

[/size]
Quote from: Cyborg
Isn't that awfully elitist? I have known more than a few people who are not particularly good at these games who just want to play.

[/size]
Quote from: Wingflier
It's not elitist. I said nothing about being good at the game. I don't know where you got that from.


 :D
« Last Edit: February 22, 2014, 01:05:04 PM by Cyborg »
Kahuna strategy guide:
http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,13369.0.html

Suggestions, bugs? Don't be lazy, give back:
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/

Planetcracker. Believe it.

The stigma of hunger. http://wayw.re/Vi12BK

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #426 on: February 22, 2014, 01:02:45 PM »
Do we really need to go down that roadlane again? ;)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Cyborg

  • Master Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,935
Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #427 on: February 22, 2014, 01:31:42 PM »
Do we really need to go down that roadlane again? ;)


Yes, because my contribution to this thread is that these games are filled with elitist, toxic behavior that generally make my experience less enjoyable. I routinely turn off chat because of it. In a game where you are supposed to be a team and work together, mistakes are severely punished in a psychological wargame by the people on your own squad. It's filthy and disgusting human behavior. And then there are threads, including part of this one, where you discuss the meta.


I'm that guy that is blissfully unaware of whatever meta you feel I should be playing. Firstly, let's all acknowledge that the moba community is full of toxic, spoiled brats that are only marginally capable of acceptable socialization. The majority of my chat screen is filled with complaints, blaming, finger-pointing, and anything possible to absolve oneself of any responsibility for their own gameplay. These same internet miscreants also firmly believe they are experts at understanding meta. And they "understand" it not because they have any intellectual capabilities worthy of note or actual original analysis, but because they saw a stream, read a blog, or observed it from countless matches of people copying each other. It's little more than copycats playing at being a pro.

I'm here to tell you it's all bull-shitake mushrooms.

Now if the acceptable meta is a solo top, solo middle, support and carry down bottom, and one jungle, I have to say I disagree. That set up requires a few things. It requires having the right combination of champions, an acceptable group leadership structure capable of delegating roles (and people who will accept them), and the kind of cooperation that needs voice chat. You never get those things in random games. You never do. So there's no way that meta is going to work.

Expanded, let's take the "acceptable group leadership structure." How many everyday players in this game are capable of even addressing each other like human beings, much less being a leader? I can't accept orders from a 14-year-old who is only trying to boost his self-esteem by attempting to making himself look good via the scoreboard and making fun of everyone else, even if they are "supporting." And woe be unto you if you are the support, usually the last pick because nobody wants to get no gold, pass off every champion kill, and generally try your best to enable your lane partner (who is probably going to blame you anyway if they die).

Going into every game, almost all of them have complaining before the game even starts. Some of them are premade teams, who expect you to be their servant and take their abuse as they play with their friends. Typical mob mentality ostracization behavior. There is complaining all game long, especially if they are losing. How are we going to have a pro league meta with this kind of behavior? I guarantee you if pro teams treated their members like garbage, it wouldn't work, either. These are the same jackholes that think they are awesome at this game, and they want to be the carry, but all they do is auto attack and act mystified if you last hit. The same guys who relentlessly pat themselves on the back and cry about everyone else, while voluntarily playing a team game.

And there's the separation from reality. Voluntarily playing a team game and abusing your own teammates at the same time. Voluntarily playing a team game and extolling your own performance and putting down everyone else's. If you really want to show how awesome you are as a player, you would be better off playing starcraft or something. I firmly believe that this game encourages protecting your own ego when you suck (blame it on the team) and elevating your own self image when you win (I carried!).

So here is my meta, which I offer as a solution and a throwback to the original League of Legends game when it first came out. Up to two people per lane, and do your best to last hit. This is going to take skill and timing with your character' s attack speed. Try to help each other survive or launch an offensive of your own, but when you die, accept responsibility. No blaming. No crying. In my meta, there may or may not be a jungle. I posit that if everyone could contribute a positive score, you would have a high chance of winning the game. I would also rather have another fully loaded carry in a long game than a support.

I routinely score very well (kills and assists, low death scores if I even die at all), kill plenty of towers, and dominate my share of games. I don't pay too much attention to the chat. I pick a character that I feel is going to be fun to play, and I go wherever I want. And I play to the best of my ability, I don't blame others, and I don't have meltdowns in the chat. Oftentimes I will just turn off chat because all it is, is toxic. The next troll you see who is actually very good at this game but not marching to the beat of your random drum, that's me!

Pro teams are not the same as random teams. Random matchmaking (and didn't you just bemoan public matchmaking?) is not the same as pro league matchmaking. By definition, the meta has to change.
 
Kahuna strategy guide:
http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,13369.0.html

Suggestions, bugs? Don't be lazy, give back:
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/

Planetcracker. Believe it.

The stigma of hunger. http://wayw.re/Vi12BK

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #428 on: February 22, 2014, 01:41:49 PM »
It's filthy and disgusting human behavior.
I fully agree.  The concept of a game where I could genuinely give my best, and possibly even do fairly well, yet still be subject to personal abuse from my own team is... well, that's why I don't play MOBAs with anyone I don't know.

I don't think a change in the meta would really alter that situation.  It would take a change in the attitudes of the people, which doesn't really happen from rule changes (be they formal rules, or informal ones).

Though I guess an extension of the "leavers get stuck with leavers" model some games take could be extended to "abusers get stuck with abusers" and have some impact.  But it's harder to objectively categorize the latter in an automated fashion.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Mánagarmr

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,272
  • if (isInRange(target)) { kill(target); }
Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #429 on: February 22, 2014, 01:54:16 PM »

Quote
4. You can't chat with the enemy team until the game is over

.....why didn't the others think of this?


Smite? You can't talk to the other team unless you use whispers directly to someone and they can easily block you if necessary.
Click here to get started with Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports.

Thank you for contributing to making the game better!

Offline Wingflier

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,752
  • To add me on Steam, click the little Steam icon ^
Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #430 on: February 22, 2014, 02:13:10 PM »
I'm not going to respond to Cyborg because it feels like he's just attempting to start an argument with me.

What I will reiterate is that any time hardcore competition is involved, people's aggressive sides tend to come out. They *want* to win. This is pure Darwinian Evolution at work. Nobody is really immune to it, there are certain people who have learned to harness or control it better than others. You will not find a game as intellectually competitive as these MOBAs on the market, and if you do, I'll give you a medal. I don't think that this makes the MOBA community full of "toxic spoiled brats incapable of socialization".

I fully support Strife's attempt to make the community less toxic by removing vast elements of the game which cause people to become angry, or at least trigger that.

"Inner peace is the void of expectation. It is the absence of our shared desperation to feel a certain way."

Offline chemical_art

  • Core Member Mark IV
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,952
  • Fabulous
Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #431 on: February 22, 2014, 03:07:05 PM »

Quote
4. You can't chat with the enemy team until the game is over

.....why didn't the others think of this?


Smite? You can't talk to the other team unless you use whispers directly to someone and they can easily block you if necessary.

In League of Legends there is a tab that enables enemy chat. If enabled communication both toward and from the enemy is enabled, off and none occurs at all. Hardly an unique attribute.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2014, 07:42:37 PM by chemical_art »
Life is short. Have fun.

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,108
Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #432 on: February 23, 2014, 01:10:12 AM »
Do we really need to go down that roadlane again? ;)


Yes, because my contribution to this thread is that these games are filled with elitist, toxic behavior that generally make my experience less enjoyable. I routinely turn off chat because of it. In a game where you are supposed to be a team and work together, mistakes are severely punished in a psychological wargame by the people on your own squad. It's filthy and disgusting human behavior. And then there are threads, including part of this one, where you discuss the meta.


I'm that guy that is blissfully unaware of whatever meta you feel I should be playing. Firstly, let's all acknowledge that the moba community is full of toxic, spoiled brats that are only marginally capable of acceptable socialization. The majority of my chat screen is filled with complaints, blaming, finger-pointing, and anything possible to absolve oneself of any responsibility for their own gameplay. These same internet miscreants also firmly believe they are experts at understanding meta. And they "understand" it not because they have any intellectual capabilities worthy of note or actual original analysis, but because they saw a stream, read a blog, or observed it from countless matches of people copying each other. It's little more than copycats playing at being a pro.

I'm here to tell you it's all bull-shitake mushrooms.

Now if the acceptable meta is a solo top, solo middle, support and carry down bottom, and one jungle, I have to say I disagree. That set up requires a few things. It requires having the right combination of champions, an acceptable group leadership structure capable of delegating roles (and people who will accept them), and the kind of cooperation that needs voice chat. You never get those things in random games. You never do. So there's no way that meta is going to work.

Expanded, let's take the "acceptable group leadership structure." How many everyday players in this game are capable of even addressing each other like human beings, much less being a leader? I can't accept orders from a 14-year-old who is only trying to boost his self-esteem by attempting to making himself look good via the scoreboard and making fun of everyone else, even if they are "supporting." And woe be unto you if you are the support, usually the last pick because nobody wants to get no gold, pass off every champion kill, and generally try your best to enable your lane partner (who is probably going to blame you anyway if they die).

Going into every game, almost all of them have complaining before the game even starts. Some of them are premade teams, who expect you to be their servant and take their abuse as they play with their friends. Typical mob mentality ostracization behavior. There is complaining all game long, especially if they are losing. How are we going to have a pro league meta with this kind of behavior? I guarantee you if pro teams treated their members like garbage, it wouldn't work, either. These are the same jackholes that think they are awesome at this game, and they want to be the carry, but all they do is auto attack and act mystified if you last hit. The same guys who relentlessly pat themselves on the back and cry about everyone else, while voluntarily playing a team game.

And there's the separation from reality. Voluntarily playing a team game and abusing your own teammates at the same time. Voluntarily playing a team game and extolling your own performance and putting down everyone else's. If you really want to show how awesome you are as a player, you would be better off playing starcraft or something. I firmly believe that this game encourages protecting your own ego when you suck (blame it on the team) and elevating your own self image when you win (I carried!).

So here is my meta, which I offer as a solution and a throwback to the original League of Legends game when it first came out. Up to two people per lane, and do your best to last hit. This is going to take skill and timing with your character' s attack speed. Try to help each other survive or launch an offensive of your own, but when you die, accept responsibility. No blaming. No crying. In my meta, there may or may not be a jungle. I posit that if everyone could contribute a positive score, you would have a high chance of winning the game. I would also rather have another fully loaded carry in a long game than a support.

I routinely score very well (kills and assists, low death scores if I even die at all), kill plenty of towers, and dominate my share of games. I don't pay too much attention to the chat. I pick a character that I feel is going to be fun to play, and I go wherever I want. And I play to the best of my ability, I don't blame others, and I don't have meltdowns in the chat. Oftentimes I will just turn off chat because all it is, is toxic. The next troll you see who is actually very good at this game but not marching to the beat of your random drum, that's me!

Pro teams are not the same as random teams. Random matchmaking (and didn't you just bemoan public matchmaking?) is not the same as pro league matchmaking. By definition, the meta has to change.


Ahhhhh, yes, I can agree with literally all of this.  You hit the nail on the head, methinks.

Heck, when I AM playing a role I'm familiar with (which for now is mostly support, or some sort of tank to a lesser degree), even as a still-relatively-new player to this genre, I dont just do what others on the team think I should be doing.  I do whatever I bloody well feel like, which basically amounts to "whatever seems like a good idea at the time". Considering my absurd reaction speed... which lends itself well to this idea, since I have no trouble adapting to quickly changing situations.... and also my general spacey nature.... which does NOT help one bit when it comes to overall tactics, as I'll get a bit lost on that really easily.... this is by far the best approach for me to take.   It fits MY playstyle and strengths/weaknesses, and it's the reason why I'll often end a match with like 25 assists, a couple kills, and no deaths. 

I know the meta can be important, but it's perceived importance is drastically exaggerated in most cases.  This is something I learned from fighting games.... players in that genre are pretty much all copycats.  Being a copycat IS the meta.  They watch the highest ranked pros from Japan, and they take their exact combos, their exact strategies, and use them as their own.  And they follow the damn "tier" list, a ranking of how good each character is perceived to be.  Me though?  Hahaha NO.  I dont give a crap what the guys in Japan are doing.  I'll come up with my own combos, and to heck with anyone that thinks that idea is stupid.  And the only strategy I've ever needed is "CHAAAAAARGE!!!".  And I'll often specifically choose whichever character is at the bottom of the tier list just to make a point.  And even against those labeled as pros, I'm usually the one doing most of the winning.  "Meta" indeed, feh.  Those using the meta strictly are actually the easiest to beat, because I know what they're gonna do.

And all of that can indeed apply to the moba genre.  If I'm on a team with someone that isnt following the meta whatsoever, well..... who the heck am I to judge them?  Particularly if they're not following it but STILL  are getting like 25 zillion kills and becoming super-fed.  But of course there are endless legions of players who WILL judge.  Who WILL try to say "No, you idiot, you need to do THIS!   Because you're not doing THIS, we're losing!  CLEARLY it's not because I just died 60 times in a row!  59 of which were your fault, by the way! UNINSTALL, 4 U R TEH UBER SUXXORZ!!!11one".  And really, just because someone is saying "no, do this" doesnt mean they're RIGHT.  They may, in fact, be dead wrong, which is ANOTHER reason to just ignore such things.  I'll learn on my own, thanks, by reading guides, watching videos, and coming to my own conclusions.  NONE of them ever think of this fact though.  They tend to have the view that because they are the Great and Mighty [insert name here], they MUST be right, because how could it possibly be otherwise?  It's everyone ELSE that's wrong.  'Tis blasphemy to think otherwise!

And then the derp begins.  The yelling and the blasted name calling.  Never realizing even once that by doing this, and by giving in to the anger, they're dragging their entire team downwards into the pit of failure and sadness, inching ever closer to a loss.   Which, of course, isnt their fault.  They had to put that n00b teammate in their place.  Gotta make sure they KNOW how much they suck.  It's IMPORTANT.  Exasperated sarcastic sigh.

I dont usually turn the chat entirely OFF, but many times while playing one of these, I sorta get into a frame of mind that causes me to literally forget that it's there, and not notice.  And why wouldnt I?  It's very rare that anyone there has something important and useful to say.  And their suggestions and orders to teammates.... specifically, suggestions and orders that are following their perception of the meta.... may actually get everyone ganked straight to Mars.  Happens pretty often, that one.

If the damn meta should become something less bloody irritating, and less annoyingly strict, THEN, and only then, might I start paying some attention to it, and at the very least getting some ideas from it, despite not outright following it.  But for now.... it's basically a rage farm.  A farm where the cows smell even worse than usual, while leaping around kicking each other randomly while shrieking "MOOOOO!!!!! F#%& YOU!!!!". 

I'll stay away from such a place, thanks.

EDIT:  Omigod I've had way too much caffiene.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2014, 01:13:57 AM by Misery »

Offline Cyborg

  • Master Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,935
Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #433 on: February 23, 2014, 10:56:32 AM »
But for now.... it's basically a rage farm.  A farm where the cows smell even worse than usual, while leaping around kicking each other randomly while shrieking "MOOOOO!!!!! F#%& YOU!!!!". 


So you play Alistar?  :D  And the rest of your post, qft.
Kahuna strategy guide:
http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,13369.0.html

Suggestions, bugs? Don't be lazy, give back:
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/

Planetcracker. Believe it.

The stigma of hunger. http://wayw.re/Vi12BK

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #434 on: February 23, 2014, 12:05:21 PM »
So that's the cow level.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!