Author Topic: Moba balance comparison, please comment  (Read 102718 times)

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #390 on: February 17, 2014, 07:35:06 PM »
I agree fully, and it's being talked about both on Hirez offices and community levels.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #391 on: February 17, 2014, 11:35:21 PM »
If you wanna just play something to have fun, go play Diablo 3, or Sim City, or Tomb Raider or any other of tens of thousands of games that don't require a competitive mentality or the desire to be challenged to win.
Because one can't have fun and take the game seriously (but not too seriously) at the same time. :o

Aye, I have to comment on this bit as well.

The idea that "being challenged" and "having fun" have to be seperate things at all times is, to me, bloody stupid.

As gamers go, I'm one of the rare few that really enjoys a good challenge.  Further than that though, I typically need the challenge level to be MUCH higher than what most would consider to be normal just for a game to even hold my attention.  Something like Dark Souls?  Not good enough.  Too easy.  Not a bad game, but I got bored.   Something like this:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uON3zty3-Q  is along the lines of something that I enjoy.  Granted that particular example is a bit extreme, but it ranks as one of my favorite games of all time.

But I dont play something like that just because of the challenge level.  If I'm not also genuinely enjoying it and having a good time, I dont bother.  Because what's the point?  What does it accomplish if it's not providing fun and enjoyment?

Going along with the concept, the fact of having fun while playing it does NOT prevent me from doing all of the crazy crap in the vid there.  Quite the opposite:  If I start to get angry at it, my performance just goes down the drain, which also seems to be the case for most gamers in an overall sense.

And I really think alot of gamers these days do not think about or even REALIZE that one simple fact, and that's one of my biggest problems with competetive gaming.  Whenever I see it happening, I always wanna say "You know, if you werent screaming f-bombs at your teammates here, you MIGHT be able to be doing alot better yourself, possibly, perhaps, maybe, potentially, and they would too".

And yes, I do alot of competetive gaming as I believe I've mentioned.  Fighting games at a very high level.  So I'm not unfamiliar with the idea, and as such I reiterate that going into these with the objective of having a good time is the BEST way to do it.  You wanna do the best that you can?  Then have some bloody FUN with it already.  You get yourself into a good mood, and you'll do MUCH better than you otherwise would..... and on top of that, you'll be yelling at your teammates less, which means that not only will they do better, they'll also learn more from any given match due to the lack of being screamed at.  If the whole team is having a good time, they're well on their way to becoming that much better.   That hyper-serious attitude?  Slows ya down.  Simple as that.


There's a quote I really like, that I saw when watching a stream of a Smite player... who looked pretty irritated the whole time... that was doing league games (or whatever that mode is called), which kinda sums up some of my thoughts on the matter overall:  "his face is exactly why i dont do leagues. hes not even having fun. not having fun is a waste of time."   I think I mighta quoted it before, but it fits all of this here, so I quote it again.


The concepts of having fun, being challenged, playing to win, practicing seriously..... these dont have to be seperate at all.   They're at their best when all put together.   And it's really too bad that more people cant see this, particularly since it's so simple....

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #392 on: February 18, 2014, 07:42:18 AM »
I think you may be taking what I said out of context:

Quote
I said that if you are playing in this genre (MOBA), then you probably have a desire to be challenged. You probably get some enjoyment out of being challenged. That has nothing to do with whether or not you're good at the game.

The people I was referring to specifically was those who were saying, "Some people just want to have fun." I agree, everyone wants to have fun, but in this genre it's heavily implied that "fun" equates to having an equally balanced game where both sides stand a chance of winning.
I specifically said that, in this genre, being challenged is what creates the fun for most people.

They are not separate.

But what some of you seem to be completely ignoring is that there are gamers out there (usually not MOBA players) who don't have to be challenged to have fun. Some people just like playing through a story, interacting with other people, or just the repetitive tasks in many RPGs or MMOs and that is "fun" to them. There is no challenge necessary. It's pretty hard to deny that people like this exist.

My original point was addressing somebody who said (or heavily implied) that you can separate "fun" from "being challenged" in this genre, and on that point I must heavily disagree.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #393 on: February 18, 2014, 08:54:01 AM »
By the way, I just got a closed beta key to Strife, S2's new MOBA that (from what I've read) looks to bridge to gap between LoL and DotA.

In other words, if those two games are the extremes (too casual and too competitive) then Strife aims to shoot somewhere in-between. Being a self-proclaimed "Second Generation MOBA", it's eighty-sixing some of the more tedious and frustrating mechanics like last hitting, and claims the introduction of new flexible roles will allow people to play their own way.

I think the genre has a lot of room to grow and could be improved on in a lot of areas. Hopefully Strife contains some of that neat innovation we've all been waiting for. I'll let you all know how it goes.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #394 on: February 18, 2014, 09:35:12 AM »
By the way, I just got a closed beta key to Strife, S2's new MOBA that (from what I've read) looks to bridge to gap between LoL and DotA.

In other words, if those two games are the extremes (too casual and too competitive) then Strife aims to shoot somewhere in-between. Being a self-proclaimed "Second Generation MOBA", it's eighty-sixing some of the more tedious and frustrating mechanics like last hitting, and claims the introduction of new flexible roles will allow people to play their own way.

I think the genre has a lot of room to grow and could be improved on in a lot of areas. Hopefully Strife contains some of that neat innovation we've all been waiting for. I'll let you all know how it goes.

I had never heard of this before, so I went and clicked, and the first thing I saw was what appeared to be a floating superhero cat.... and thus, I did the signup.

Wether or not the signup will accomplish anything is another matter.  I do so very much beta testing but I always always hate the signup bit, with the super-random choices of who they send keys to.  Did the signup for Blizzard's game as well.

Currently my attention is still almost entirely focused on Dawngate, which is so far living up to my expectations.   That is.... when I can play it!  Good ol' reliable Comcast (and by "reliable" I mean "no") is breaking new records here.  180+ connection failures in one night is.... a bit absurd.  Cant even play Hearthstone or something turn-based when it's THAT bad, which it is most of the time.  Aint been able to do ANY online gaming in the last week and a half.  Dawngate, Hearthstone, Infinite Crisis, World of Tanks.... I'd love to be messing with these, but noooooooooooo.

Getting a new blasted modem (for like the 8th time or so, I think it is now) in the next couple of days.    And if THAT doesnt work.... goodbye Crapcast, hello...... freaking DSL.  Ugh.  I really dont want DSL.  But at this point, a downgrade to DSL is an UPGRADE from bloody Comcast.  I'm actually not expecting the new modem to solve anything at all.  Even the cable lines (or whatever it is) to the TVs and such are getting wonky, which is new.  And their automated phone help line thing glitched out at me at one point.  "Welcome to SQUAWK" followed by bubbles isnt what I expect to hear when I call them. 

Mostly playing Anno 2070 and Minecraft while waiting for that and for the next update to Last Federation here. 


I'll be interested to hear about this Strife game though.  Definitely what I most want out of this genre right now is more games like Dawngate or Blizzard's upcoming thing that DONT just super-directly copy Dota/LoL. 

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #395 on: February 18, 2014, 09:47:16 AM »
By the way, I just got a closed beta key to Strife, S2's new MOBA that (from what I've read) looks to bridge to gap between LoL and DotA.

In other words, if those two games are the extremes (too casual and too competitive) then Strife aims to shoot somewhere in-between. Being a self-proclaimed "Second Generation MOBA", it's eighty-sixing some of the more tedious and frustrating mechanics like last hitting, and claims the introduction of new flexible roles will allow people to play their own way.

I think the genre has a lot of room to grow and could be improved on in a lot of areas. Hopefully Strife contains some of that neat innovation we've all been waiting for. I'll let you all know how it goes.

I had never heard of this before, so I went and clicked, and the first thing I saw was what appeared to be a floating superhero cat.... and thus, I did the signup.

Wether or not the signup will accomplish anything is another matter.  I do so very much beta testing but I always always hate the signup bit, with the super-random choices of who they send keys to.  Did the signup for Blizzard's game as well.

Currently my attention is still almost entirely focused on Dawngate, which is so far living up to my expectations.   That is.... when I can play it!  Good ol' reliable Comcast (and by "reliable" I mean "no") is breaking new records here.  180+ connection failures in one night is.... a bit absurd.  Cant even play Hearthstone or something turn-based when it's THAT bad, which it is most of the time.  Aint been able to do ANY online gaming in the last week and a half.  Dawngate, Hearthstone, Infinite Crisis, World of Tanks.... I'd love to be messing with these, but noooooooooooo.

Getting a new blasted modem (for like the 8th time or so, I think it is now) in the next couple of days.    And if THAT doesnt work.... goodbye Crapcast, hello...... freaking DSL.  Ugh.  I really dont want DSL.  But at this point, a downgrade to DSL is an UPGRADE from bloody Comcast.  I'm actually not expecting the new modem to solve anything at all.  Even the cable lines (or whatever it is) to the TVs and such are getting wonky, which is new.  And their automated phone help line thing glitched out at me at one point.  "Welcome to SQUAWK" followed by bubbles isnt what I expect to hear when I call them. 

Mostly playing Anno 2070 and Minecraft while waiting for that and for the next update to Last Federation here. 


I'll be interested to hear about this Strife game though.  Definitely what I most want out of this genre right now is more games like Dawngate or Blizzard's upcoming thing that DONT just super-directly copy Dota/LoL.
I also have Comcast, and was experiencing some problems with it until I got my own service (previously I was sharing service with about 1,000 other people on my apartment's shared internet, what a headache).

The modem they gave me was a giant piece of crap. I had to reset it like every 18 hours because it would slow down and disrupt my service for basically no reason at all.

I ended up buying my own on Amazon and I don't regret the decision. My internet service has been much higher quality since I chose to do that, and now I don't have to pay $8 monthly for their terrible modems that they give me.

I don't know if that's the problem in your case, but it could certainly help. Though I think that, if I were in your situation, I probably would have switched to DSL a long time ago. I only deal with Comcast because it's the only ISP in this area. They have a very horrible reputation and it's probably deserved.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #396 on: February 18, 2014, 10:52:08 AM »
I also have Comcast, and was experiencing some problems with it until I got my own service (previously I was sharing service with about 1,000 other people on my apartment's shared internet, what a headache).

The modem they gave me was a giant piece of crap. I had to reset it like every 18 hours because it would slow down and disrupt my service for basically no reason at all.

I ended up buying my own on Amazon and I don't regret the decision. My internet service has been much higher quality since I chose to do that, and now I don't have to pay $8 monthly for their terrible modems that they give me.

I don't know if that's the problem in your case, but it could certainly help. Though I think that, if I were in your situation, I probably would have switched to DSL a long time ago. I only deal with Comcast because it's the only ISP in this area. They have a very horrible reputation and it's probably deserved.

Yeah, I've often considered the switch to DSL, the core reason I hadnt done so yet was mostly sheer impatience.  Comcast blows, but when it DOES work the speed of it is excellent.   A great many times faster than DSL.  Heck, at one point my cousin, who has DSL at his place, needed to re-install basically everything onto his PC, much of which were enormous games like MMOs and such, so he dragged his entire PC over to my place to do it, since it changed a download that could take like 6 days into a download that took like 2-3 hours.   Me, I dont even come close to having the patience to tolerate a 6-day download.  I can barely tolerate 5 minutes.  Probably what makes it do this is the fact that there are very few people sharing the node (or whatever they call those). This house is in a very expensive area, and we're in a cul-de-sac that only has 2 other houses around it, since nobody can afford to buy the many empty lots to build stupidly pricey houses on them, so much of the area is blank lots.

.....though, when I think about it further, that probably makes it MORE sad, as it means the connection gets as berserk as it does with a maximum of not that many people using it at any given time.   ...yeah, that's kinda pathetic.

I hadnt thought of just buying a seperate modem myself... I'll keep that idea in mind.  Today I'll be able to set up the new one finally, from them, so I'll see how it goes.

And yeah, they really do deserve their terrible reputation.  I had asked my father to call them this time, because I did the calling the last 80 damn times and have been getting a tad frustrated at it, so he did so, and came back to me with the story of him asking where their local office is, so he can take the old one in and get the new one, and them taking 10 full minutes to NOT FIGURE IT OUT. They dont even know where it is. I think he had to go look it up himself.  THAT.... is just.... I dont even have words.  I know they're legendary for terrible customer service (their CEO thinks it's because they "get so many calls" all the time) but that's getting a bit silly.  I've had them for a LONG time, back since the time when 56k was starting to drain away and be replaced with everything else, and they've been awful every step of the way.

Speaking of which, an entertaining article if you've not read it before:  http://consumerist.com/2007/09/27/5-confessions-of-a-comcast-customer-service-rep/   An old article but that stuff pretty much still applies.

Offline Mick

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #397 on: February 18, 2014, 11:00:13 AM »
That reminds me of when Time Warner sent me to a local office that no longer existed to exchange my cable box. I was lugging around the equipment in a mall that supposedly had their office wondering why there was simply a wall where the location supposedly was. I phoned the mall itself and they told me that the office was removed a while ago.

But don't worry Time Warner/Comcast users, the terribleness of both providers is soon going to merged into one uber-terrible provider. How that passes anti-trust review is beyond my comprehension.

Offline Riabi

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #398 on: February 18, 2014, 11:06:01 AM »
But don't worry Time Warner/Comcast users, the terribleness of both providers is soon going to merged into one uber-terrible provider. How that passes anti-trust review is beyond my comprehension.

It hasn't. At least not yet. Hopefully the Justice Department will put the smack down on that crap!

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #399 on: February 18, 2014, 11:09:40 AM »
If Comcast and Time-Warner merge, will they implode into an incompetence singularity and thus get out of our hair?

If not, is Enigma available to assist in the process?
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #400 on: February 18, 2014, 11:30:33 AM »
If Comcast and Time-Warner merge, will they implode into an incompetence singularity and thus get out of our hair?

If not, is Enigma available to assist in the process?
Unfortunately, incompetence * incompetence is simply incompetence^2.

Even Enigma can't help in this situation, I feel that the only sound which will rectify this injustice is "Nuclear launch detected".
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #401 on: February 18, 2014, 11:34:19 AM »
Unfortunately, incompetence * incompetence is simply incompetence^2.
Alas, the situation is too far gone, then.  If the incompetence in question were merely the negative of competence then this formula would give us hope.  As it is, their incompetence has crystalized into a palpable substance of its own.

Quote
Even Enigma can't help in this situation, I feel that the only sound which will rectify this injustice is "Nuclear launch detected".
I fear that, like throwing nukes at an incoming "guided moon", it will result in being struck with the same rock.  Only hotter.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #402 on: February 18, 2014, 11:36:29 AM »
Unfortunately, incompetence * incompetence is simply incompetence^2.
Alas, the situation is too far gone, then.  If the incompetence in question were merely the negative of competence then this formula would give us hope.  As it is, their incompetence has crystalized into a palpable substance of its own.

Quote
Even Enigma can't help in this situation, I feel that the only sound which will rectify this injustice is "Nuclear launch detected".
I fear that, like throwing nukes at an incoming "guided moon", it will result in being struck with the same rock.  Only hotter.
The galaxy nuke then, just to be sure.
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Offline mrhanman

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #403 on: February 18, 2014, 04:13:27 PM »

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #404 on: February 18, 2014, 04:46:11 PM »
Had a close kill in Assault today.


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