Author Topic: Moba balance comparison, please comment  (Read 102560 times)

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #180 on: March 02, 2013, 10:10:14 AM »
Hurricane isnt exactly the best ad item nowadays. Or even a particularly viable one i feel.

As Wingflier said, its power is that it applies on hit effects both with its greater AS and through its passive orbs.. BotRK is the king of on hit items, so the two synchronize well.
Though I hear there's a major problem, especially on Kog, in that the range of Runaan's passive effect is not very high, so that most of the time you (being Kogmaw) never actually use the passive effect because you're hitting them from too far away.  I must admit, this is a bummer, but I'll still have to try it and see.

I found out yesterday that any players in Gold IV and up are in the top 5% of all North American League of Legends players in Ranked.  I didn't realize the scale of was that skewed towards the bottom.  I guess I'm one of the top 5%.
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #181 on: March 03, 2013, 12:12:09 AM »
I honestly cant imagine the difference that would have to exist between bronze 5 and bronze 1.. hell, even the difference in single tiers must be huge.
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #182 on: March 03, 2013, 01:18:05 PM »
No offense, but if you have to shoot people as a capper, you are doing it wrong ;) (Aimed at Keith. For some reason the quote button didn't want to work)
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #183 on: March 03, 2013, 02:43:44 PM »
No offense, but if you have to shoot people as a capper, you are doing it wrong ;) (Aimed at Keith. For some reason the quote button didn't want to work)
Don't worry, I think forum posts ricochet.

And if a player does it wrong, but no one else is alive in the match, does it make a sound?
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #184 on: March 04, 2013, 11:05:34 PM »
I take back what I said about rushing blade. Currently its a first/second item, depending on if i went bloodthirster first.

For the moment, I dont really actually see much reason to go ie early anymore. Which is odd, because I used to be the one claiming ie was the only first item.

It uhm, might be a tad op at the moment.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #185 on: March 04, 2013, 11:14:15 PM »
Oh really?  A tad OP?

It's so overpowered that they are literally about to put out a HOTFIX for it.  I can't even REMEMBER the last time Riot hotfixed ANY balance failure.  I remember when Xin Zhao was released, he was so godly broken that he made Xin Zhao of last patch look like Heimerdinger in his current state.  They still didn't nerf him until the next patch.

Literally all they're doing is increasing its cost by 350 gold, as if that's going to do anything at all.  They would have to increase the cost by 1,000 or more to even make a dent in how useful it is right now.

I was just reading the thread about how the designer in charge of this change said he didn't know this would happen.  I saw this from a mile away, that guy is an idiot.

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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #186 on: March 04, 2013, 11:39:05 PM »
I seem to recall hotfixes on riven and lee sin, but those arent amazingly recent. Not sure offhand if rengar got hotfixed or not. According to lolwiki, zyra received hotfix nerfs back in august. And before that mightve been shen.

Like I really didn't realize how strong the new cutlass would be more than anything else. Then so much more ias than it needs.
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #187 on: March 05, 2013, 10:43:46 AM »
LeBlanc was hotfixed the same day she was released.  I don't believe any champion was every as brokenly insane as her.

BoRK was good before the buff.  Why they buffed it without increases the cost in the first place I don't know.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #188 on: March 05, 2013, 10:57:14 AM »
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #189 on: March 06, 2013, 12:45:19 PM »
I can successfully confirm that Kogmaw with Blade of the Ruined King + Runaan's Hurricane is explosive diarrhea powerful.  Leading me to go 16-3 with him in my last Ranked game, and the deaths were only because our team was so far ahead that we started messing around.  It's possibly the only ADC in the game that you can skip building critical strike on completely and still do insanity amounts of damage.  In fact my third item was Randuin's Omen (to survive the BORK stacking on their team of course), and I still did plenty of damage to boot.

This was after the hotfix nerf btw, which seems to have done nothing to taper its power (as I predicted).  My friends and I have had so much fun with it that we've renamed the acronym to Blade of the Ruined Kog, or Blade of the Ruined League, which seems to make me laugh everytime I hear it.

Though, to put it in perspective, Blade may be taken by ~40% of all players right now, but Flash is taken by 92%, from what I've heard.  So as long as we're complaining about imbalanced things, let's focus on the reigning King huh :D
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #190 on: March 06, 2013, 12:49:36 PM »
Maybe they just need to add a Flash-like active to BoRK.
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #191 on: March 06, 2013, 12:52:17 PM »
Nah, let's give BoRK the BKB active.

Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #192 on: March 06, 2013, 04:20:03 PM »
Yeah, heros in dota build a gg branch nearly 100% of the time - It needs nerfing.
99% of the time a team will have a mek - It needs nerfing.
98% of the time a team will have a donkey - It needs nerfing .

See, that line of logic doesnt actually follow. 100% of the people in the game buy boots - Does that mean boots should get nerfed? (apparently riot thought so, because they nerfed them pretty damn hard)

And honestly, in its place, bkb is not actually that big of a deal. Sure, it is a pretty big deal, but it has things that counter it just as much as anything else. Heaven's halberd, abyssal blade, to name a few. I would really like some sort of magic immunity in league, because it would make my play as a carry a little bit easier. Believe me, knowing that your entire team just loses if you make one mistake is a big deal. And its not just being too aggressive - being too careful will also cost your team the game. That weight is actually a pretty big burden, when your only defense is a 300 range blink, that likely wont save you anyway.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #193 on: March 06, 2013, 06:39:17 PM »
Quote
Yeah, heros in dota build a gg branch nearly 100% of the time - It needs nerfing.
Yeah, and then sell it back (or build it into something else).  Besides, the cost of the branch is literally equivalent to a potion in League of Legends.  Nowhere did I complain about people buying potions in my previous post, because it's a consumable.  For all intents and purposes, GG branches are a consumable.  Consumables have very little value past the early game.

Quote
99% of the time a team will have a mek - It needs nerfing.
98% of the time a team will have a donkey - It needs nerfing .
See, that line of logic doesnt actually follow.
In this part you're either misrepresenting what I said accidentally or on purpose.

For example, I said that it's not uncommon to see 40% of people in a game to build BORK, so 40% is 4/10 people.  That's quite a bit.  Now Flash is 92%, so typically you'll see it on 9/10 people in a game, occasionally more.

You're now twisting my argument to say that because 2/10 people in a game buy a Mek and a Donkey (by using the word "team"), I'm calling it imbalanced.  I'm sorry, but if 20% of people in a game buy an item, it's probably not imbalanced, nor did I say it is.  You misrepresented my argument to make it look like that.

Quote
100% of the people in the game buy boots - Does that mean boots should get nerfed? (apparently riot thought so, because they nerfed them pretty damn hard)
Now wait a minute, which boots are we talking about here?  There are lots of boots.  You can build Mercury Treads, Ninja Tabi, Gank Boots, Speed Boots, Bezerker Greaves, CDR Boots, etc.  Just because they all have the word "boots" attached to them, and all give movespeed, doesn't mean everyone is building the same thing.  If everyone in the game ONLY built Mercury Treads, then you would have an argument, and for a long time, Mercury Treads WERE the best boot by far.  Fortunately, they've been nerfed several times to the point that they're pretty balanced with the rest of them, so many different types of boots are used.

To say that all the boots can simply be categorized as the same item, is the same as saying that Randuin's Omen, Sunfire Cape, and Warmog's can all be categorized as the same item, because they all give health.  Yes, they give health, but they also do vastly different things in addition to that.

On the topic of BKB in DotA: 1. It isn't good on everybody, and not everybody builds it.  2. It gets worse everytime you use it, so it's a pretty poor investment in the long-term.  3. There are item counters to it as you said. 

It's a core item on carries the way that Infinity Edge is a core item in LoL, you may see 2/10-4/10 people building it every game.  Sometimes more, sometimes less, depending.  Seems relatively balanced, and it doesn't overpower the other options (such as Barrier Idol, Linken's, or Blademail) which do similar things in different ways.  The reason I take issue with Blade of the Ruined King in its current state is that it seems to overpower the other options, even on non-ADCs, and people who generally shouldn't even benefit from it (I've seen it on Eve and Pantheon for example).

Quote
That weight is actually a pretty big burden, when your only defense is a 300 range blink, that likely wont save you anyway.
You're simply fooling yourself if you think this is the case.

Flash is used MUCH more to escape a gank than to secure a kill and that is a STATISTICAL FACT.  Maybe in lower-tier LoL where nobody has any map awareness, Flash won't save you from a gank, but in professional games, you literally have to burn Flash, most of the time, before you can even create a successful gank.  This is why you often see competitive League of Legends games that have 4 kills by 20 minutes; this is a very common occurrence.  Flash rewards bad positioning, this is why everybody takes it.  Without Flash, if you get caught, you're probably dead.  With Flash, if you get caught, your survival chances increase dramatically, especially if you have a tower near.  The fact that you have to gank a person twice in lane, once to burn Flash, then again to kill them, is absolutely ridiculous.  It is a mechanic that needs to be removed from the game, and the fact that 92% of people take it (and I'm not talking TEAMS here, I'm talking individual PLAYERS) is proof of that.  You give me another item or Summoner Spell in the game that is taken 92% of the time (and kept all game, not upgraded, sold, consumed, or turned into anything else) and I will shut up.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2013, 06:43:08 PM by Wingflier »
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #194 on: March 06, 2013, 10:56:37 PM »
The branch is literally the 8th most popular item in dota right now. And thats not even counting all of the branches that were built into things.

ANd yes, the point of my post was to point out how silly your argument was. Just because everyone uses it doesnt mean its op and needs nerfing. For the most part, there are 4 summoner spells - Flash. Ignite. Exhaust. Smite. You see like ~18 combined of these every game. Does that make them op? No, it really doesnt.

This is clearly how the game was intended to be played.

For comparison - Nearly every hero in dota builds power treads, arcane boots, or mana boots. You see about as many power treads as you do arcane and phase put together - Does that mean power treads are op? Or do I need to magically cross some other threshold (60%? 75%?)

And my point about flash was merely that during a teamfight, the reposition is fairly weak. If you were out of position enough to need it, you need to pop it nearly immediately (upon realizing how out of position you are, such that nothing can use their gap closers on top.). Even then, your enemy can just as easily use flash to get right back up to you. Dont get me wrong, its still useful, often moreso than ghost or barrier would be, but it is still likely not going to save you in a teamfight situation.

I would largely agree that in lane its often very strong, as relative distances matter a lot more (particularly with relation to the turrets, earlygame)
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