Moba balance comparison, please comment

[Wingflier]

Expecting someone to be able to play all 5 roles competitively before playing ranked is ridiculous.

I don't think it's ridiculous, it means you have a good enough understanding of the game to perform well in Ranked.  That doesn't mean you have to be GOOD at all 5 roles, but you could at least be competent at them all.

Like for example if I say, "prefer mid, top, or adc", then my team can hopefully give me one of those roles.  But if I'm last pick, and I don't get one of the roles I called, should I just be unable to play the game completely then?  That sounds ridiculous to me.  What if everyone in the Ranked queue can only play 3 roles, and they all just happen to overlap?  Or what if you can only play 2 roles, and they happen to get taken?

I'm not saying you have to be EQUALLY GOOD at all 5 roles, but you should at least have a basic understanding of each, in the unfortunate scenario you get stuck with one.  I can't count the number of times on 2 hands players get stuck with roles they don't know how to do (like support).  It's not because the team was malicious or wasn't communicating, it just turned out that way, and the game often ends miserably.  Why is it any more the team's fault than the individual's fault for not having a basic understanding of each role before playing Ranked?

There is no good answer to that question.  You're not always going to get the role you want, or even the the top 3 roles you want, so if you can't play all 5, don't play.

But I agree with your suggestions.  I had even thought of a ranking system based on role.  For example you could queue up as a top, mid, jungler, etc., and your rating would be based on how well you do in that role, instead of how well you do in general, which may vary greatly from role to role.  However I came to the same conclusion you did, that it would stagnate the already entrenched metagame, and I for one would like to see a lot more variation than what we currently have.

I like the idea of the "role buttons" to make it more transparent to your team what you would prefer.  Though I still don't think it's an excuse to be incompetent at certain roles, but it might help your team provide you with the ones you excel at.

[Hearteater]

I'm not saying incompetent, but competitive.  If you are a Gold player, you aren't going to play all 5 roles at the Gold level.  Maybe your Support is only Silver or even Bronze.  And I feel that's not unreasonable.  I got the impression you felt if I'm a Gold player, I should be able to play all roles at the Gold level, which is ridiculous.  I've seen very few pro players who can play every roll at Gold+.  Actually, I can't name a single one that could do all 5 at Gold (at a given time...some have swapped between all 5 over time).

[Wingflier]

No I didn't mean that. I just meant you can play every role in a pinch, even if you'd prefer something else.

[madcow]

I feel the need to somewhat troll this thread by posting a PA comic from today, as it seems relevant to the conversation. (also the comic talk and following this thread might as well be greek to me)

http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2013/02/25

[chemical_art]

Poor madcow, you didn't read the page before this one did you?

[madcow]

Poor madcow, you didn't read the page before this one did you?

Nope! Oops, a pretty big margin for a ninja too.

[eRe4s3r]

Well the PA comment at least sums up why I don't play DOTA clones or dota 2 for that matter or Starcraft 2 (heh). It is work. It is actual, defined work. You have to learn, train, keep regulations and rules and business language in mind, work in a shuffled together team, and work together to achieve maximum result or lose. The only difference I can find to actual work is that these games don't pay you.

Which is really why I can't find any understanding why anyone would play these games. They are not anything you can play casually and have fun with. If you partake in even a single game you are joining a level of advanced and complex "competition" whether that's why you join or not.

I don't play a lot of games online when I think about it, exception and only exception is BF3. Where I am most of the time not competitive and just kinda drift along (still end up with most points, maybe even kills but certainly not always the best KDR and the most deaths of anyone, I like storming to surprise people). That's something you can never do in dota's .. you either commit to a complex "dance" complete with routine, or you fail.

However I find the communities these kind of games attract highly curious, because where as BF3 attracts a broad range of vile personalities 99% of the player-base is perfectly normal. Where as I feel that the high competition that dota clones and assorted automatically require from their players makes people act like this isn't just a casual game to have fun with but rather a full blown serious competition of a level you won't even find in most clan-matches in BF3. Hence why so many scandals revolve around the toxicity etc. Not to mention the time requirements of a single match.

Anyhow, please ignore my ramblings... just thought about that for some reason.

Ps.: With "casual" I mean "pick up and play without having to train"

[chemical_art]

On top level play I can see why one would get that impression.

But for LoL in particular, when you first start out, you are not against pros. It is very much simply pick up and play. You can send anyone anywhere for the most part, since the jungle doesn't even really exist (due to lack of runes and masteries).

And at every level of play, the bots in LoL on easy really are so. Even the moderate ones, while sometimes brilliant/frustrating, on the whole still results in win for the player.

Every game at some point can reach the point of competitive (real or pseudo), just as some point it can be considered pick up and play.


I'm not saying that at the top that it isn't toxic, or the top meta is very stale. I'm just saying part of LoL's deserved thrashings are in part because it throws many bones to new players and thus is considered "casual"

[madcow]

Your comment about certain games being work rings very true, and echoes my thoughts.

When Starcraft 2 came out I got it and loved the single player, but then I tried going multiplayer. I did alright, but found the sheer amount of things you need to do all at once, in real time, at a super speed is just mind boggling. It felt like work to play.  If that game went at about half speed it would be perfect heh, but its so fast paces with so little room for error it felt like work. And certainly wasn't relaxing!

I've not played any dota games, in part the complexity about the number of things to memorize and fear of that workness to it.  Not that I'm against complex games or the need for skill. I love them, but there's a line to me where it goes from fun and deeply nuanced, to just draining.

That's just me. And for some the above might be why they enjoy the game in the first place

[Wingflier]

On top level play I can see why one would get that impression.

But for LoL in particular, when you first start out, you are not against pros. It is very much simply pick up and play. You can send anyone anywhere for the most part, since the jungle doesn't even really exist (due to lack of runes and masteries).

And at every level of play, the bots in LoL on easy really are so. Even the moderate ones, while sometimes brilliant/frustrating, on the whole still results in win for the player.

Every game at some point can reach the point of competitive (real or pseudo), just as some point it can be considered pick up and play.


I'm not saying that at the top that it isn't toxic, or the top meta is very stale. I'm just saying part of LoL's deserved thrashings are in part because it throws many bones to new players and thus is considered "casual"

Well recent forum debates have shown that Riot refuses to take a stance on this issue, which is a major part of the problem.

They are in a pickle though. If they say anyone can play what they want to play every game, regardless of the consequences, it means opens the game up to massive amounts of unpunishable trolling and blatant non-teamwork.  If they say you HAVE to pick what your team says they need, you entrench the metagame even more and remove what makes the game fun for many people.

Personally I think they should make a compromise, at least in Summoner's Rift (not sure about the other modes). If the mode is blind pick, people can pick whatever they want. The very nature of blind pick is casual anyway. Without knowing what the other team picks, you open the game up to massive imbalances anyway with unintentional hero counters and lane setups. Not to mention most people already don't take it that seriously in my experience.

Alternatively, for the Draft Mode of either normals or ranked, they should make a lobby report feature which shows the conversation and picks/bans of each player. Now tribunal bans in this scenario shouldn't be based on whether everyone picks into the meta game, but whether they're communicating with their team. For example if someone picks an ADC when there is already an ADC and just says nothing, chances are they get in trouble. But if someone picks Xin as support, and says he wants to do a kill lane, that's a little more acceptable. Though maybe still not as acceptable if the entire team is telling him not to do it, and he does it anyway. Then goes into the game and feeds unmercifully. Lobby reports would be tied to game reports so something like that would be easy to see.

It's not a perfect system but it preserves both the casual and competitive aspects of the game to those concerned.

[chemical_art]

I agree with all of that Winflier.

[keith.lamothe]

I agree with all of that Winflier.

Agreement singularity collapse imminent.

It is work. It is actual, defined work. You have to learn, train, keep regulations and rules and business language in mind, work in a shuffled together team, and work together to achieve maximum result or lose. The only difference I can find to actual work is that these games don't pay you.

Which is really why I can't find any understanding why anyone would play these games.

Some people enjoy work

[Mánagarmr]

It's like asking me to play Capper in Tribes. I can do it, but it sure as hell won't be pretty

[keith.lamothe]

It's like asking me to play Capper in Tribes. I can do it, but it sure as hell won't be pretty

We'll just give you a ricocheting spinfusor and the enemy team will keep a safe distance

[Lancefighter]

Honestly, I enjoye the sc2 multiplayer for the most part. Ultimately I had to quit because I took losses far too seriously.. which is something i actually liked initially. Turns out, when you are particularly hard on yourself, and its possible to COMPLETELY blame yourself for a loss because of obvious retrospective mistakes, it wears on you pretty quickly.