Author Topic: Moba balance comparison, please comment  (Read 102569 times)

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #135 on: February 17, 2013, 03:43:01 PM »
I understand elo hell.

When my bot tower falls while I am supporting, and I have half the cs my carry does (I had 6) and I had the only kill and 1/4th the deaths, there is not much I can do.

EDIT: Also, welcome to league of warmongs
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 03:45:38 PM by chemical_art »
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #136 on: February 18, 2013, 02:55:51 PM »
I understand elo hell.

When my bot tower falls while I am supporting, and I have half the cs my carry does (I had 6) and I had the only kill and 1/4th the deaths, there is not much I can do.

EDIT: Also, welcome to league of warmongs
And now you understand why I only duo-queue.  I'm now in Gold IV and rapidly advancing towards Plat.  This would take substantially longer if done solo.

They nerfed Warmog last patch, and they're nerfing it again next patch.

In all honestly I don't see why they reworked it this way in Season 3.  Such a one-size-fits-all defensive item that works on anybody is just retarded for the game. 

However in addition to the next upcoming nerf, they are buffing Blade of the Ruined King again, and this time I think it's going to become hands down overpowered.

My solution?  I just play Kogmaw in Ranked games and laugh.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #137 on: February 20, 2013, 05:31:15 AM »
So I've subscribed to Sirlin's theory of "playing to win", and therefore have now sacrificed all self-respect in order to start playing Khazix, a champion which I find undeniably broken.

I think actually playing him has just reinforced the opinion I had before.  He is supposed to be a high risk/reward champion, except there's really not that much risk.  Even if you're losing in lane, which is hard to do considering how difficult you are to gank, and the fact that you can last hit well under a tower (something I take full advantage of), you can easily stay miles away from the enemy laner with your upgraded nuke and still farm decently.  Oh, did I mention that it also heals you for the damage done? Lol.

In battle with your huge-range jump, which from what I can tell is about 3x the range of Flash; you just jump in on a low target, kill them, then jump back out or ulti for the invis.  In pubs nobody every buys detection until way late, and even in my Khazix ranked games nobody bought any. 

Oh, his kit synergizes well enough, probably too well considering that he can do everything.  Before the fight I'm one of the best pokers in the game let's not forget.  Then during the fight my burst is also one of the highest in the game, especially for an AD burst, and especially considering I can just get away afterwards unlike someone such as Pantheon or Rengar.

Riot doesn't seem too concerned about the fact that there's only 1 best way to evolve his skills, which is W, E, R, in that order.  I thought the evolution mechanic was supposed to be cool and give you different options depending on the game?  Yet I've never seen or heard of any professional player, or any Khazix player in general, using any other evolution pattern than that.  Not to mention that his Q evolution is useless compared to the others.

So Riot here's the lesson to be learned:  Just because a champion's kit fits well together immaculately, does not automatically make them a good design.  There is also the factor of how said Champion actually affects the game, and interacts with other champions who have lesser kits.

Ironically, Khazix's entire theme emphasizes evolution, and in evolution, the strongest species survive.  Indeed.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 06:05:46 AM by Wingflier »
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #138 on: February 20, 2013, 04:14:15 PM »
to be fair - look at udyr.

Despite nobody playing him, he has basically one skill order. max phoenix, then max turtle, take three in bear, then max tiger. rerwrerereewwqqqqq.

sure, he has that interesting theory that you can level three of his skills to 5, but like.. Its not ever useful.

And he has been this way for YEARS.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #139 on: February 20, 2013, 05:22:30 PM »
max phoenix, then max turtle, take three in bear, then max tiger. rerwrerereewwqqqqq.
Is that onomatopoeia? ;)
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #140 on: February 20, 2013, 08:11:19 PM »
Sadly, its the sound of udyr getting kited by everyone in the game.
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #141 on: February 20, 2013, 08:14:21 PM »

My solution?  I just play Kogmaw in Ranked games and laugh.

I wish I had the same case. In my games, no one wants to be a tank, then gets mad that while I as kog cannot attack anyone more then once before attempting to kite because my front line is dead.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 08:16:07 PM by chemical_art »
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #142 on: February 21, 2013, 07:55:53 AM »

My solution?  I just play Kogmaw in Ranked games and laugh.

I wish I had the same case. In my games, no one wants to be a tank, then gets mad that while I as kog cannot attack anyone more then once before attempting to kite because my front line is dead.
Yeah in Bronze IV, that's going to be a problem.

Whenever I play Kog I specifically ask my team to build peelers.  You need an Alistar/Chogath/Xin Zhao/Shen/Janna, etc. type lineup to really do well as Kogmaw.  That doesn't mean that you can't win without that, but it definitely helps.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3147839&highlight=wingflier

I made a guide for escaping Elo Hell.  Most of the time the game is won at champion select, so encourage your teammates to pick good counters and/or complement your own carry.  I'm sure you deserve a much better rating than that.  Unfortunately, Riot's MM system doesn't reward skill, it rewards playing the system.  It's much more about what happens before the game even starts.

In terms of Udyr, I disagree that his only build involves Phoenix.  In fact, of the times I've watched him used in pro streams, and in ranked games, Phoenix isn't even taken.  Phoenix is probably his worst stance.  It clears jungle quickly, but Udyr is a crap jungle now because he's so easily kited.  In top lane all you need are your first 3 stances.  Tiger is great for harass, Bear is good for the stun, and Turtle if you get engaged/ganked.  That's all you need.  Phoenix is just going to push the lane and make you extremely vulnerable to jungle ganks.  Tiger form does more damage in a shorter amount of time, while giving you a crapton of attack speed to boot.  With some good damage items like Triforce or Wits End, you can take full advantage of this.

I still think Udyr is viable in top lane, against certain teams.  He's much less viable now than he used to be with every new champion having some ridiculous escape mechanism which makes gap closing impossible (Ahri, Jayce, Khazix, Elise, Rengar).  The more champions they add with escape mechanisms, obviously the less useful Udyr becomes.  Having said that, he's really strong against many melee tops such as Jax, Irelia, and especially Lee Sin, who can't do ANYTHING to him (it's actually hilarious).  He plays a lot like a Nidalee top in that he just stays in the lane forever and split pushes.  If you try to stop him he just Bear/Turtle forms away, making him extremely hard to gank.  It gets to a point that successfully killing him becomes a huge resource investment that isn't worth the cost, so you just have to let him farm and push until he's huge.

Udyr, in addition to escape mechanisms, is also very susceptible to CC.  People are going to slow/stun/kite you all day long if they can.  This makes me wonder how Cleanse would work on him.  Typically Cleanse isn't that popular on bruisers but I'm not sure why.  Top lane is almost always against a bruiser, so you want to get Ninja Tabi instead of Mercury Treads.  Ninja Tabi are also much better lategame than are Mercury Treads, if you can find a way to make up for the lack of % CC Reduction.  With Cleanse you can go full tank build (including Ninja Tabi), and still be much harder to kite in a fight.  Sure, giving up Ignite means you might lose a few kills in the laning phase, but Ignite gets worse as the game goes on, Cleanse is ALWAYS useful.  I take Cleanse on Jax for this very reason, and I'm so much stronger lategame than if I had taken Ignite.

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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #143 on: February 21, 2013, 08:32:53 AM »
Also, more examples of Riot nerfing things which are not imbalanced, and only affect low-level play:  AP Tryndamere.  Have you seen him in competitive play recently?  No, because he's garbage.

So instead of asking players to get better, we'd rather nerf something that isn't imbalanced.  Way to go Riot.

It seems their standard for game balance is how something affects 800 Elo players.  Ironically, Khazix has a less than 50% win ratio there, so he must be balanced.  Right?  Right?!
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #144 on: February 21, 2013, 11:15:10 AM »
The reason behind the AP Trynd change is covered by this guy on Reddit pretty well:

Quote from: pierce7d
Okay, I'll try to explain why this is necessary, and why Riot made this decision, and why I think it's a great decision.

Most champions in League of Legends use mana. Champions are balanced around the fact that when you cast an ability, you lose some mana, so that over time, you can no longer cast abilities (unless you restore your mana). This system keeps most champions in check from having overly exploitable abilities or mechanics.

Some champions are manaless. Energy champions work on a different system, but that system is still designed to keep those champions in check. The other resource that ALL champs have is HP. When you have a scenario where you can replenish a resource for free, indefinitely, either the ability will be underpowered, or broken (see, pre-nerf Rengar or Pre-nerf Soraka).

Tryndamere's problem is not that Riot doesn't want you to build him AP. It's that they put the fury system in place instead of a mana system. But by that token, you are supposed to acquire fury and then spend it accordingly. The previous ratio they had on Trynd was blatently overpowered. It might as well read, "This champion gains massive amounts of HP every 9 seconds". You could just change Q to "Passive: Increase HP Regen by 100/5" and it would be more balanced than AP Trynd's Q. He gets rewarded with massive amounts of free HP, for doing nothing at all. This type of gameplay is not only broken, but anti-fun. You should be rewarded for successfully playing through a risk. It's the same reason Soraka is considered the plague upon League of Legends. The champion is rewarded for a stalemate.

I like AP Tryndamere. I like that someone took the time to think out of the box. I like the fact that AP Trynd actually loses a LOT of lanes, but has a late game reward in his split push power, creating a viable strategy that does have counter-play. I like the way he works, the way he functions, the thrill of the split push. I like tons of stuff about AP Trynd, and I hope he doesn't get nerfed to unviability. However, I don't like when people get free wins because they exploit a broken and boring mechanic. And I don't mind when something gets used in a way that it wasn't originally intended. However, there is a big difference between "Oh, that's a creative way to use that champion" and "Oh, you're exploiting the fact that the game has been reworked and we've yet to balanced this previously underused champion around the new items."

With this new ratio, Tryndamere will still be able to heal, but he's actually going to have to gather fury to heal, as was intended for balance reasons. Just like it costs mana for other champions to use abilities, Tryndamere is supposed to be rewarded for gathering fury. In his current state, he could have all benefits from fury be removed, and he'd still be overpowered. AP is not supposed to replace fury, just like AP isn't supposed to replace mana. I do hope that the numbers Riot chooses are balanced and successful, and enable skilled Tryndamere players to find success when they outplay their opponents.

tl;dr Trynd doesn't cost mana so heal was overpowered. This nerf makes it so he has to use fury to heal effectively, since he is manaless.

For those who haven't heard about the change, they moved most of the AP ratio from the base amount to the amount healed by Fury consumed.  So instead of always getting 1.5xAP even when you have 0 Fury, you now get 0.2xAP without Fury, but 1.2xAP with max Fury.  As a result, you get 80% of the previous healing provided you are actually out there fighting.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #145 on: February 21, 2013, 04:20:39 PM »
That guy's wall of text would be more applicable if not for the fact that AP Tryndamere's ratios have been like that FOREVER and nobody complained. As soon as one online streamer takes advantage of it, suddenly it's SO OP. It's also funny how matter-of-factly he portrayed Tryndamere's imbalance, WHEN, in fact, he's a low level pub stomper. Hasn't been seen in high Rank or competitive play because he's still garbage.

So what's the real problem? He's a noob stomper. Even with his current ratios his design is still 100% less broken than the likes of Khazix and Elise who are overpowered in competitive play, and have kits which can do EVERYTHING. Why won't Riot nerf those? It's not affecting pub noobs who don't even know how to play the champions.

Why Riot balances for 800 Elo, not 2800 is beyond me. Oh wait, 800 Elo is where all the money is. Now I understand.
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #146 on: February 21, 2013, 04:50:36 PM »
Just because something else is broken, doesn't mean they can't fix a problem.  Changing AP Trynd was pretty easy and required very little manpower.  Fixing Elise and Kha'zix probably require a lot more care if they don't want to actually just destroy them for competitive play.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #147 on: February 25, 2013, 12:45:09 PM »
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #148 on: February 26, 2013, 08:48:00 AM »
This seemed relevant: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2013/02/25/ ;)
That's pretty much what happens.  Though it's partly Riot's fault for catering to the stale lane setup instead of encouraging people to try something new.  In DotA there are dozens of different lane setups so nobody is going to rage at you if you don't do 2 bot, 1 mid, 1 top, jungler.  It would be quite easy for them to mix it up if they wanted to, but in a competitive MOBA/ARTS people are going to expect you to do what it takes to win, fun is tertiary ;p

There was a huge discussion yesterday on the forums about whether people (in Ranked) should be able to pick the lanes they want, or be assigned basically what's left, based on more or less player rating (so the higher the rating, the more roles available).  Now keep in mind this is Ranked, so of course the games are expected to be taken a lot more seriously than Normal games, but people were arguing on both sides about it.  Personally I agreed with the OP that if you can't play all 5 roles, and be flexible about what you will play, you shouldn't be playing Ranked.

edit:  Also you've got to realize, it is just a game, but it's a game in the same way that high school football is a game.  Yes, it's still amateur and kind of a joke compared to the NFL, but your team isn't going to let you play whatever role you want just because you're trying to "have fun".  A lot of people have spent a lot of money to make that happen, and everybody on the team has practiced quite a lot and they want to win.  Saying you want the quarterback role because "it's just a game" is not going to go over very well with your team.  If winning isn't your main concern, then perhaps League of Legends is just not the game for you.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 09:22:11 AM by Wingflier »
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #149 on: February 26, 2013, 10:50:55 AM »
Expecting someone to be able to play all 5 roles competitively before playing ranked is ridiculous.  The people who might be able to pull it off are mostly at the Champion level.  Everyone else has at least one role they would be terrible at for the level of games they are queuing at.

What I'm waiting to see is a role-based queue.  That would be nice.  But it would entrench the meta even more, so I can understand why they don't want to do that.  So failing that:

* Give us a TOP/MID/BOT/JUNGLE buttons we can turn on/off to indicate our preferences (next to summoner spells).  Much easier to process what everyone can do visually than putting it together from chat.

* Let us pick champions at any time during the draft, but until it is our turn our picks are just to show our own team who we are thinking of playing.  Modify champion selected to hold the last 3 champions you clicked on, so you can display a small group to your team.

* Let us put champions into our own groups so we can find easier.  Because honestly, I jungle so rarely, whenever I do have to
jungle I can't remember who the heck I play jungle as.  A "folder" I could open that listed all the champs I like to jungle as would make me much more comfortable jumping into roles I don't play often.

* Let us swap positions with other players who haven't picked yet during the draft, instead of swapping champions.  This means YOU pick the champion you want, rather than working out some trade and comparing champions you own with some random stranger under time pressure.