Author Topic: Moba balance comparison, please comment  (Read 102878 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #105 on: January 28, 2013, 10:50:38 AM »
Heimerdinger is a lot of fun, but I only played against bots ;)  Still, having the enemy's central inhibitor down before my first recall was pretty entertaining.

But yea, I was disappointed when I realized my then-favorite champ was widely regarded as laughably bad meta-wise.
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Offline RCIX

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #106 on: January 29, 2013, 01:42:25 AM »
Corki is one of the only ADCs with an innate armor shred and he pushes very well with solid multitype damage. Dunno why he's not seen as much right now, he's still the Courage portion of the Triforce of OP ADCs that were complained about so much during near end of Season 2.

Kog is solid but dependent on a comp which will protect him. His DPS is the highest out of ALL carries, PERIOD, but he just needs the highest amount of peel and defense steroids to live to use it. The only big reason you don't see "protect the kog" comps is because it's difficult to slot that much utility into the rest of a team; make a defensive support or two viable in other lanes and he will come back faster than you can say "how the hell did i just die so fast".

Syndra and Viktor are absolutely not bad tier. Viktor is only slightly weak and still performs as well as he did before the S3 changes (read: very well but no one bothered for unknown reasons), and right now the _only_ reason you don't see more Syndra is because of a combination of all traditional AP AoE/teamfight mages being weak right now PLUS her being overlooked at release before she got significant buffs.

Ryze is considered top tier because of how much damage he pours out while naturally itemizing for lots of tankiness. As long as Ryze is alive, he will be spamming spells and because of his ult, dealing mucho AoE. Only unplayed due to the AD caster mid spam where he can't farm at all. He's short range but because of the sheer DPS potential of what is effectively a 2 second Q cooldown combined with commensurately short CD mres shreds and snares, and then spellvamp on all of that aoe facewrecks.

Annie sits very low on the mage tier list and always has because she has cripplingly short range and so most mages just poke her out of lane. Bear AoE stun is pretty good but when you're underfarmed and have no kills (and annie was always vaguely kill dependent)...

Brand is also kind of low because... well, there's no particular reason to pick him. He's very difficult to play correctly, and when he does get played correctly he ends up being a squishy teamfight caster with no mobility and low CC, and that just doesn't fit in many comps. He does excel at being what amounts to a mage bruiser who can burn almost anyone down, but only Dominion has let him do that.

Eve is very, very overrated with the most recent nerfs, and depends on feeding off of blatant mistakes to win. That can be done, but then it's easier to do with others now =p

Zed is just waiting for people to realize he has quite literally over 9000 burst. It's trivial to build enough damage on him so that an AD carry dies then buy tank items to soak damage.

Heimerdinger is a lot of fun, but I only played against bots ;)  Still, having the enemy's central inhibitor down before my first recall was pretty entertaining.

But yea, I was disappointed when I realized my then-favorite champ was widely regarded as laughably bad meta-wise.
Which was also why he was nerfed, the game of "lose one or more objectives any time you recall to heal or shop" just kinda sucks =p
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #107 on: January 29, 2013, 12:32:39 PM »
Heimerdinger is a lot of fun, but I only played against bots ;)  Still, having the enemy's central inhibitor down before my first recall was pretty entertaining.

But yea, I was disappointed when I realized my then-favorite champ was widely regarded as laughably bad meta-wise.
Which was also why he was nerfed, the game of "lose one or more objectives any time you recall to heal or shop" just kinda sucks =p
He was nerfed again?  When I played him he was down to two turrets at once (I understood he'd previously been able to do three) and considered a "play for fun" character but not competitive at all.
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #108 on: January 30, 2013, 02:34:23 AM »
Eh.. He hasnt been in a good spot, metawise, for a long time. The push meta just doesnt exist. I kinda wish league would fall into a nice push meta, but instead they want to do some stupid farm meta. I hate farming metas. Boring game.

Anyway, I think the only reason I wanted to post here was to be annoyed that wingflier called tristana bad. Tristana is literally the best hero in the league, and you better believe it. And if you dont, ill bash you over the head with her cannon.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #109 on: January 30, 2013, 05:27:48 AM »
Tristana is bad, and I stand by that.

I didn't even respond to your earlier rant about Ezreal vs. Tristana, because your argument was so ridiculous.

Ezreal's Flash is a billion times better than Tristana's.  Comparing the two is laughable.  Ezreal's is near instant, Tristana's has about a second cast delay, I've seen her die so many times before even getting it off (or in mid-air), it's not even funny.

But why debate it?  The proof is in the pudding.  Swap Tristana's Rocket Jump with Ezreal's Phase Shift, and Tristana would INSTANTLY become the superior champion.  Better initiations, better escapes, just much better overall.  Meanwhile, Ezreal's ability to kite, chase, and flee would be gimped; he would most likely stop being used in competitive play.

It doesn't even matter that Rocket Jump refreshes on kill or assist.  Tristana's kit makes absolutely no sense.  Why would a ranged carry with one of the longest attack distances in the game want to JUMP ON TOP of her target in the first place?  It is so bafflingly stupid that whoever designed it should be shot (with Buster Cannon).  Speaking of Buster Cannon, it also makes no sense.  It's good for peeling somebody off you I guess?  It's damage it's too weak to be used as a finisher, many other ADCs have better finishers (Graves comes to mind).  You're not going to use it to leap behind somebody and knock them into your team, because you would die instantly...

So yes, if Tristana is extremely farmed, she's a beast.  Yet most other ADCs can farm better, and their skillsets make much more sense.  Tristana is fine in pubs I guess, but I still think she's bad, and I still think Rocket Jump is completely inferior to Phase Shift regardless of what you say.

ALSO to your comment about Tristana having one of the highest level 6 bursts in the game LOL.  Are you talking about AP Tristana?  Because AD Tristana's "burst" is certainly not one of the highest in the game at level 6 (or at any part of the game for that matter).
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 05:41:34 AM by Wingflier »
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #110 on: January 30, 2013, 05:56:44 AM »
Your comment about tristana's burst not being the highest baffles me.

Lets compare to the average caster - Annie. Assuming annie levels her skills in a manner that gives her as much burst as possible, she gets 200+180+125. This comes out to a pretty average 505. And we are levelling things optimally.

Tristana, again, under the same assumption (and again, no ap, no autoattacks), has 160+140+300. This, I'm not sure if you know, comes out to 600. Which I'm pretty sure is actually higher than 505. Additionally, this is a completely normal build, you see in basically any trist game.

Very weak. Very.

Under optimal conditions on graves, if you dont level your e, and assume q hits three times, you deal 221+110+250, which comes out to 581. Sure, you can argue something about ad scaling and shit, but I dont actually care. Its kinda important to realize that tristana's base damage is actually really good. And maybe I could mention that she also her ratios add up to 2.3, whereas annies are 2.15.

If you took away tristana's signature skill and replaced it with a skill that serves a similar function, youve basically done nothing. Youve severly gimped tristana by removing her disengage after a successful early game engagement. Youve taken away her only real cc.

(Leb - 210+80+85+232. 607. Granted, thats not optimal damage, she can deal slightly more by maxing her chains. But thats not how you play leb)


And yet, all of this is a rebuttal merely to your disagreement on her burst damage. The argument is NOT ridiculous. And yet you completely dismiss it, claiming ezreal's dominance. Maybe youve forgotten other parts about tristana's jump - It the longest range (nonult) blink in the game. Youre correct in that the silly jump-knockback combo isnt particularly effective. Except youre forgetting the scale of such a thing. In the bottom lane engagements, her ult is incredibly strong. It is hilariously more versatile than grave's nuke. It is easier to use than ezreal's channeled ult. It is an interrupt. This is kinda important. It can save allies. And, as I mightve mentioned, it contributes to tristana's hilarious level 6 damage.

Tristana is outfarmed by other carries? Tristana has some of the best farming spells in the game. She has two spells that can easily keep melees off of her, the best steroid in the game, and a counter-heal.

Is this the point where I challenge you to a manfight? Or do I need to get my entire team together?
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #111 on: January 30, 2013, 07:30:21 AM »
Look even if she does have the highest level 6 burst damage in the game (which she doesn't for various reasons), I don't care about that.  An ADC's job is not to get kills at level 6, and ADC's job is to...carry.

Furthermore, her "burst damage", if you want to call it that, falls off extremely quickly mid to late game.  This is because her skills do magic damage, on a physical carry...This makes absolutely no sense.  You haven't even factored this into your equation by the way. 

Chances are, those AP casters are going to have magic pen runes and the magic pen mastery, which means they'll be doing 20% or more damage with their spells by level 6 than will Tristana, who doesn't use magic pen.  More examples of a retarded kit that needs to be updated or reworked.

This kind of inconsistency has been slowly updated over time.  From what I remember, Miss Fortune's ultimate used to do magical damage, but obviously that made absolutely no sense, so they changed it to physical.  Eventually I'm sure they'll update Tristana as well.

Quote
In the bottom lane engagements, her ult is incredibly strong. It is hilariously more versatile than grave's nuke. It is easier to use than ezreal's channeled ult. It is an interrupt. This is kinda important. It can save allies. And, as I mightve mentioned, it contributes to tristana's hilarious level 6 damage.
Her ult in bottom lane, aside from the level 6 burst, which falls off quickly, is good for stopping a potential gank maybe. 

Once again, 300/400/500 magic damage on a physical carry is NOT something you want to rely on to secure you a kill, especially considering that it pushes your target away.  I can't even count on two hands how many times I've seen Tristana throw away a kill because she misjudged her ultimate and therefore the target survived.

I'd much rather have an Ashe arrow to start a fight, or an Ezreal ultimate which can severely damage an entire team, or secure a fleeing kill, or a Graves ultimate which is actually good as a finisher, and doesn't push your target away.  If I want someone to peel for my carry, I'll take a Lulu; I'd rather have an ultimate that does something late game, if it's all the same to you.  In fact, I would take Vayne's Condemn over Buster Shot any day of the week.  At least Condemn stuns the target when they hit a wall, and is functionally just as useful for self-peeling as Buster Shot, on a much lower cooldown.  It also does physical damage, and scales 1:1 with attack damage, making it much more powerful as the game progresses.

Speaking of team fights, that's really where Tristana fails the most.  Ignoring the aforementioned ultimate, which is rather useless compared to the superior AD Carry ults in team fights, she has a serious problem of positioning.  It doesn't matter what your range is if you have to stand on the edge of battle doing nothing.

Take for example heroes like Ezreal, Graves, and Vayne.  These champions all have really nice positioning abilities, which allows them to kite around in the battle, ignoring the tank, and focusing on the squishier, priority targets first.  Graves and Vayne have a dash that comes up every few seconds, and while Ezreal's is a little longer, it's still a great positioning tool, and is what gives him such great mobility in a team fight.

What exactly does Trist do in a team fight?  Say the fight has begun and you're standing on the edge of it.  Now a Singed runs up to you.  What do you?  Do you Rocket Jump away?  Now you're a million miles from everything that's happening, and your team is left to get slaughtered.  Do you Buster Shot him?  Okay, you've done absolutely no damage to him and he'll be back on top of you within seconds...While Graves, Vayne, and Ezreal can kite him enough to stay useful in a team fight with their dashes and mobility, he's going to shut Trist down hard.  And this is a reoccuring problem for Tristana.  She gets shut down easily by zoning.  If you use your Rocket Jump to ENTER the fight, you better hope to God that you get a kill or assist before that 10 second cooldown expires, otherwise you're done for.

The only way Tristana can get around this fundamental design flaw is by being SO farmed that even tanks fear you, so someone like Singed, Alistar, or any other tank is going to fear trying to zone you.  That's an unreasonable amount of farm to expect on her, which is why she's not used in competitive play.

Also, when I say she can't farm as well as other carries, I don't mean her abilities don't lend themselves to farming (Wow if we're talking purely about abilities, Malzahar should be the best farmer in the game by far...just doesn't seem to work out that way in practice), I mean that other ADCs have a superior laning phase, and superior killing potential much earlier than she does, excluding the gimmicky level 6 magic burst which falls off quickly.



« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 07:33:11 AM by Wingflier »
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #112 on: January 30, 2013, 02:53:39 PM »
see, now youve completely shifted your argument - Tristana's migame is, as mentioned, kinda bad.

Honestly, if we want to argue about tristana's burst, it really needs to be compared to other bot lane heros, and very few of them actually rely on the same level of upfront damage tristana can deal. Graves is the sole exception, and I did make that comparison. Yes, arguments can be made about armor and mr being different, in addition to armor pen and magic pen.. But I really do not feel that is a big deal. (i could also bring up that heros traditionally have more armor than mr at 6)

Lets look at the singed argument with some other heros, what do you say?

Ashe - Cries because she has no way to get singed off of her.
Graves - Dies because he has no cc, and a pretty bad shortrange jump
Ezreal - Tries to blink away, but is trolled by singed's flip having stupid mechanics associated with it.

None of these can deal with singed. Honorable mention actually goes to vayne here, who has the skills to avoid singed, assuming no detection. However..  Tristana is actually not bad against singed. Tristana can buster him across a wall, somewhat ideally. Trist can jump herself across a wall. She has the range to easily carry from across a wall. And when tristana is on the other side of a wall, any assists she gets gives her the ability to use her incredibly strong reposition again.
Condemn is a poor skill because, primarily, bugs associated with it. Additionally, its range is shorter, its knockback distance is about half of tristana's, and it feels more difficult to use. Sure, its a really good stun if it hits a wall, but a carry is not supposed to provide stuns. A carry is, as you mentioned, supposed to right click on people till they die.

Except, youre still missing a few points. Pair trist with any sort of stun or damage ,and you have an incredibly strong bot lane duo. This duo can often kill a target well before their chance to react. Does this not lend to carrying? In league, you worry a lot about snowballing. If I can kill my bot lane opponents repeatedly, is this not going to lead to incredibly strong mid-late carry potential?

And finally, we are busy arguing about level 6 burst, while completely ignoring her level 2 burst. Do I really need to remind you that she has 180 damage + a 60% slow for 2.5 seconds? In an aoe? And a healing reduction? She has an incredibly strong laning phase.


I am really trying to bring any sort of personal attachment into this (yes, trist is my favorite hero, and I could tell tales of all the things I've done), but at the same time I am having incredible difficulty avoiding mentioning that I feel you have absolutely no experience playing with/against a competent tristana. Dont get me wrong, I dont mean one much more skillful, I just mean one that is competent. One that actually knows the fine lines they need to not cross with rocket jump. One that knows exactly how strong buster shot is, primarily referring to killing potential. I really do  not feel that ezreal or graves has anywhere near the skillcap tristana does, honestly. And tristana comes with a higher floor to be relevant too.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #113 on: January 30, 2013, 05:25:55 PM »
Well, I was going to write this extremely detailed response to all your points but I'm just too tired.  I've been exhausted today so I better conserve what little energy I have left to do my homework.

Instead, I'll simply say that you're obliged to show me what a "decent" Tristana actually looks like by playing with me.  Not that I doubt that most Tristanas I've ever played with are bad, but I would be interested to see how a good one is played.
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #114 on: January 30, 2013, 07:57:59 PM »
lol fair enough - I do have one stipulation though; I do not play without my support player. League as a game is too annoying to try to do without someone I can implicitly trust, especially when I am duolaning.

Or, I mean, I could show you the strengths of an ad tristana middle, but for some reason people dont like it when I do that. She really used to roflstomp kassadin, and quite a few other mids. I once went against the legendary Jesse Perring as tristana. True story.
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #115 on: January 31, 2013, 09:35:30 AM »
Tristana, hmm, that reminds me.  Anyway, Tristana's level 6 burst is the reason a lot of pros will take her in 1v1 duels to first blood.  She can reliably kill almost any champion at level 6, and those she can't are often melee and susceptible to constant ranged harassment to the point that she can kill them.  But I do agree with Wingflier, her kit is really ugly.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #116 on: February 01, 2013, 09:30:28 AM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EevdEwQNjG4

These changes to ranked play are awesome.  Very innovative, I like how it pits you against a (relatively) small group of people so that you can develop rivalries, and eventually fight them into a little mini-tournament to reach the next bracket.  I'm impressed with this new system.

I am curious about how duo queue will work though.  If each player is in their 250 player division, which division does it use?  Or does it create an entirely new one?
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #117 on: February 10, 2013, 02:21:19 AM »
Finally made it to Gold IV, after much kicking, screaming, raging, yelling, and crying.  I've literally gotten so angry over the past couple weeks that I've thrown things across the room in pure rage.  I've pulled my hair and smacked my head, cried, laughed, and done everything in-between. 

League's matchmaking system is freaking garbage.  It puts you with people that troll you so hard, don't listen to directions, or just flat-out suck.  I literally lost 80% or more of my solo queue games.  There were games where I would go 15-0, and I would still lose.  I generally like to play solo, but it wasn't until I started duo-queuing that I began winning games.  I literally win 85% or more of my duo-queue games, which is basically the polar opposite of my solo queue games.

And the sad thing is, I started in Gold, I feel so bad for the people stuck in Silver or Bronze.  The amount of trolling and griefing in that tier must be unbelievable. 

So anyway, the moral of the story is, if you want to move up in Gold or below, get a good duo partner.  It decreases your chances of getting a team full of incompetent retards.  With a good partner, you can usually carry the game into victory, it seems to make all the difference.  Granted, it won't ALWAYS work (sometimes your team is uncarryable), but it seems to work most the time.

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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #118 on: February 10, 2013, 02:29:30 AM »
I started in silver 1, and got promoted pretty easily (i am like very evidently way above my skill level).. Contrary to this, a friend that also started in silver 1 is having incredible problems advancing, despite queueing with me.

I honestly dont know - I dont feel like advancing, beause the games arent particularly fun. But at the same time, I'm pretty sure I could fairly easily. (funny thing - I am like 90% in soloq, and ~50% in duo) Also, almost every game i am playing has me as fp, even the solo ones.
*shrug* if I had a little more motivation, i might.. But its just not there.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #119 on: February 10, 2013, 03:58:55 AM »
Well, ranked is definitely a whole different beast than normal, that's for sure.

In fact, I guess I didn't realize just how different it would be until I really dove into it and started playing it exclusively.  The main difference is that people take it a lot more seriously.  At least (in solo queue) the people on the other team do.  There's more level 1 invades, roaming, warding, counter-warding, map calling, map awareness, and the tempo of the game in general is a lot different than in normal.  It takes a lot of adjusting to, but now that I have, I can't go back to normal games.  I just don't care anymore.  Nobody really cares whether they win or lose, it's like we're all just here to have fun, so winning is a secondary concern.

So I definitely see what you're saying.  Personally I think I belong in Platinum, and possibly even Diamond, but unfortunately I'm restricted to playing duo queue games with others to make it there, which somewhat limits how quickly I can advance.  Once I hit Platinum League, we'll see about solo queuing again; at which time I can only hope that the average skill level of my team has risen, and the average troll level has fallen.
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