Moba balance comparison, please comment

[Lancefighter]

well - yes, thats exactly my point. As someone who plays a lot of ad carry, nunu is a lot more annoying and not fun to play against than khazix.

Maybe if I played more top lane, then I might fine khazix annoying. Or, more probably, id have a better response for his counters.

[RCIX]

Kha'Zix is strong and possibly in need of nerfs, yes -- However, he functions as an assassin who sacrifices burst for some teamfight utility and the snowball jump mechanic. If you put him in a fight with an AD carry he'd win but he would have to use his stealth to break aggro multiple times and it would take him 3-4 seconds. In exchange, he gets a ranged slow/poke, mobility, and damage. The current UPness of armor nonwithstanding, he still outputs 80-90% physical damage and is very weak to reveals/CC. Stick an Alistar, Blitz, Lulu, or Taric (with Oracles for all but Lulu) on whoever he's trying to kill and you can forget killing anyone. Reminds me of Kat in that way, actually.

The eve nerfs were okay, except for the ult damage change, which kind of singlehandedly gutted her. If she opens with it to assassinate, the shield is almost useless, and if she saves it for surprise shield it does little no damage. Combine that with the fact that the ult now only stacks multiplicatively with DFG, she's just somewhat lacking and not really worth fielding anymore. Doesn't help that they stuck random AD ratios on there when the rework happened and then gave a 0.1 buff to each but hybrid or AD eve still sucks and there's no reason to ever do that

I actually feel Vi is much better than Xin Zhao, because A: Xin has about 8 radically different kinds of tools in his kit (thus making him supersticky), and B: Xin's Q gives kind of dumb levels of damage for those 3 strikes. He will dash to someone, he will knock them up, he will do a ton of damage, and there is next to nothing you can do about it. What's worse, it's not even hard; QW > E to target > R > huehue rightclick i win

Vi in comparison has a fairly focused kit; it's more-or-less all well built around the theme of punching people, and of gapclosing then doing a lot of damage without being innately sticky.


Now that the Season 3 rework is out ofthe way and everyone is off break, it really feels liek they are kicking back into gear on smaller stuff, fixing things they want to improve instead of just talking about them. <3

[Lancefighter]

I really like xin's theme a lot more than vi's - unfortunately, vi is a lot more fun to play, because of more complex mechanics (more depth in play), as well as a not-situational dash (that can double as a disengage if needed) that has hard cc attached.

I dunno, if vi's ult didn't feel so poor, i feel like she would be a lot better.

[Wingflier]

I really disagree with RCIX that Xin is absolutely better than Vi.  I think Xin is a safer pick than Vi, and less situational, but I don't think you can conclude that he's 100% better as he's suggesting.

http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/yodas-2-2k-elo-jungle-vi-1-vi-on-elobuff-281963

This guy seems to have gotten to 2200+ using Vi almost exclusively, so while I disagree with his build, there's definitely competitive potential for her.

One thing I disagree with RCIX on (with Xin being one of my mains), is that you WILL get that third attack off.  You most certainly may not get that third hit off.  With Exhaust lowering your attack speed massively, with so many champions carrying invis or pseudo-flash skills in their kit, and with Flash, QSS, and Cleanse available, it is often the case that you never do land the third hit.  Vi, on the other hand, WILL land her ultimate, and it does not matter how many times they flash, go invisible, dash away, or pray to their dear lord, they are going to get dunked, and that's that.  Against a single target, I don't think there's any debate that Vi's ultimate is much better and more reliable than Xin's, though against an entire team, Xin's obviously shines, if you can get that kind of opportunity. 

Of course for the purpose of my argument, I'm assuming both Xin and Vi are jungling.

Early game, I definitely give the advantage to Xin, because he's such a good ganker.  With his E->W->Q, he can easily catch up to fleeing heroes and secure a kill.  Vi on the other hand is somewhat gimped without her ultimate.  Her Q is good for chasing but it doesn't slow them or knock them into the air, in fact it actually knocks them away from you a bit which is somewhat bad.  However, she's still not a bad ganker pre-6.  The trick (in my experience) is to take Ghost as your secondary Summoner, and bait the Flash.  See, if you take Flash they can just Flash away from you, then even if you Flash after them your Q will be difficult to land.  If you take Ghost, you'll be on top of them, then if they Flash away, you can close the gap within a second and Q to secure the kill.  Ghost mitigates the movement speed slow from Q as well, making it much easier to land on a moving target. 

But where Vi shines, I think, is post-6, when her ultimate comes into play.  As I said before, I disagree with Yoda's build.  For me, I like to get Madred's Razors, Mercury Treads, then rush Youmuu's Ghostblade.  Every 3rd attack, Vi does massive damage to her target.  Xin only does massive damage on his 3rd attack after his skills are off cooldown, so it's actually much less useful as a continual source of damage than is Denting Blows.  Once I finish my Youmuu's, I become a ganking machine.  If your ultimate is off cooldown against a squishy target (usually their ranged carry), they are going to die.

In fact, once I finish my Youmuu's, I finish my Wriggle's Lantern, then I get the Alacrity Boots.  With Mercury Treads + Activated Youmuu's + Alacrity + MS Quints + Ghost, your target is not going to get away from you.  One of my favorite things to face on the enemy team is a TF.  If they have a TF lategame, he is DEAD.  He CANNOT get away from you, he's a slow squishy target, and even if their entire team focuses you, he'll die within seconds.  Sure, they can Exhaust you, but they're exhausting a person with Mercury Treads and the Defensive Tenacity Mastery, which give a total of roughly 45% CC Reduction combined, so about half the duration.  Once again, if they're wasting exhaust on you, and not your carry, it's a huge victory in itself, and it usually won't stop the kill anyway.

Now the only problem with this strategy (blitzing the AP or AD carry in the back) is that your team has to be very responsive.  In ~1500 Ranked (which is where I am so far), this usually isn't a problem.  In normal queue, don't expect anything.  When you jump onto their carry every fight, your team has to be right behind you, taking advantage of the chaos (and the targets you've knocked up along the way).  If they don't instantly react to your initiation, things usually don't turn out so well.

It goes without saying then, that your goal with Vi is not to survive, but to secure that VIP target kill, then do as much damage as you can before you die.  Of course Xin typically has the same role lategame as well.

One thing Vi has over Xin is a nice escape mechanism (because all the new heroes have to have some kind of retarded flash or invis, or in the case of Khazix, both), which means that she's less vulnerable to being caught out lategame.  When Xin gets caught without his team, he's dead.  He has absolutely no way of escaping.  Vi can Q over walls, and is more reliable in general in those kinds of situations, which do happen as an initiator.

So ultimately, I disagree with you that Vi's ultimate is poor.  In fact, against ultra-squishy targets who rely completely on positioning and Flash to survive (such as TF), I would say that it's one of the best ultimates in the game.  I do agree that Xin is the safer pick, and certainly easier to use, but I disagree that he's simply better than Vi because of that.

[RCIX]

I don't think Vi is bad (to the contrary, she's one of my new favorites), but it's just that Xin is so much easier and more impactful. Why play a carry-diver melee that is extremely aim-dependent (you more-or-less are guaranteed to lose the trade/teamfight if your Q doesn't hit as Vi) when you can play Xin? He has better mechanics that are easier to use in terms of fulfilling his role.

This right here is the downside of League's "fit character to a role in a unique way" system =p

[Wingflier]

Yeah but this is a design mechanic that, as far as I can tell, the ARTS/MOBA Genre can't get around.

Two characters may be equally useful, but if one is more difficult to play than the other, obviously the choice is simple when it counts.

Just be thankful that the LoL competitive scene doesn't look like the DotA 2 one, where only like MAYBE 1/4th of the pool is used.  Though I'm pretty sure that the only reason you see more of the LoL roster is that people don't own all the champions, and therefore they play what they have and what they've practiced with for months or years on end.

Though ironically, I think DotA 2's  balance is much better overall, with not a single hero that I would consider useless or even significantly inferior to others.  I can't say the same for LoL, I think a friend hit the nail on the head when he said that about 1/4th of the LoL cast is pretty bad. 

Riot does make up for it with the heroes they do focus on, which are usually very well-designed and enjoyable to play.  When you consider how many champions there actually are, I suppose ignoring a small portion of them isn't too hard to swallow, though it is definitely a serious pitfall for new or returning players.  For example, my cousin wanted to buy Heimer recently...

Some design decisions of Riot kind of baffle me.  Like the decision to give Elise her Spider Form from level one, when Nidalee doesn't get Cougar Form til 6.  I don't think there's any doubt that Elise is a better hero than Nidalee over all.  She's much better at laning, her ranged nuke isn't a skillshot (and it HURTS), she has a ranged stun, does more damage in teamfights, and is overall a much safer and more reliable pick.  And I absolutely chalk a lot of this up to the fact that Elise gets her Spider Form from level 1.  If she had to wait til 6 like Nidalee, she'd still probably be a better hero, but only marginally, not overwhelmingly like she is now.

It just seems like Riot's tendency is to make the new heroes flat out better than the old ones.  Consider the fact that Lulu and Nami, two of the most recent supports, are also two of the best supports in the game.  It looks like Thresh will be an amazing support hero as well.  Look at Khazix and Jayce.  These designs are just simply better than what was in the game before, and I don't like it.  They need to at least try to keep the new designs balanced with the old ones (the Spider Form level 1 is a good example) when they make a hero.

[Lancefighter]

And yet we still have discussions about ezreal being one of the best carries - Sure, there are 'newer' heros with their fancy designs and such excelling at some roles, but often the old standby heros are the ones people turn to.

overall I tend to agree that dota's balance is far better, but sometimes it feels like the outliers are much stronger in dota - Look at drow's 60% pub winrate for the majority of the last few months.. Or silencer's newfound strengths.

On the other hand though, league heros tend to snowball a lot harder, I would say.

[Wingflier]

Ezrael is only a problem because he has a built-in Flash. Flash is still the most Powerful Summoner Spell in the game by far, even after countless nerfs, and EZ gets one, on a ranged carry no less, with a fraction of a fraction of the cooldown. I don't think it would matter what his skillset was with that advantage.

In terms of DotA's outliers, you have to remember that Drow was considered underpowered for YEARS, even after a considerable number of substantial buffs. Did you know that they made her auto-attack the longest in the game? That would be like giving Ashe, a ranged carry with a devastating slow, the longest attack range of all champions...yeah. People STILL didn't use her; and after years of similar buffs, IceFrog just decided to try something crazy (Eve comes to mind).

But recognize that there is one MASSIVE fundamental difference between the two games. Drow and Silencer, over 3 months after their remakes, STILL haven't been released into competitive play. Which means they are disabled in Draft Mode. Riot releases Champions into the game in whatever broken state they're in and lets the players fend for themselves. In both games, Draft Mode is a way to avoid overpowered heroes, DotA just doesn't make me waste my bans on them.

Whether Silencer got buffed is questionable. His old passive aura silenced enemies for 3 seconds after each spell. Can you imagine that in League? Yeah. Well they removed it and replaced it with a single target spell, while buffing some of his other skills. It is yet to be seen whether he'll be competitive material.

Speaking of competitive material, I picked up Katarina the other day and she's a lot of fun. They did a great job on the rework, maybe a little TOO good ;p

[chemical_art]

I recently picked up Katarina.

Her fun in game is only matched by the fun of pondering the best build.

Her lack of needing mana or cdr's means her options are narrowed, yet with her ratios you are torn with making a small but noticable boost to damage with all her damage via ability power, and making your ult an absolute nuke with attack damage.

And with her ult, she has the potential of doing so much base damage, that you want tanky items to live long enough to finish the ult.

I'm so experimenting the best way to handle different situations.

[Wingflier]

I suppose it hasn't been massively important to me; finding the perfect build I mean.

I play her like all of my favorite champions, super-aggressively and with a lot of movespeed.

I take MS Quints, and get the Utility 2% extra speed out of combat mastery.  Then I upgrade my boots with Alacrity after my first major item.

I typically rush Liandru's Torment (or whatever it's called), then just go from there depending on what the game requires.  After that I get the Alacrity upgrade, then Warmog's, then I can just build whatever I need. 

The extra movespeed from runes, masteries, and items may not sound like much, but I find it's essential to your ganking prowess and to securing a lot of kills.  The fact of the matter is, an unsuspecting enemy is going to start running as soon as they see you, and if you never get in range to Shunpo, it's a failed gank.

Overall she's a lot of fun to play, very twitchy and risk/reward.  She's top-tier after the remake.  If she's balanced, she's only balanced with the best characters in the game imo, not with most of the cast.

[Lancefighter]

From what I understand, they moved silencer into a more active playstyle. And gave him a basically on demand non-ultimate silence. Also, unless thats changed, it deals damage before a spell like refraction can happen. (not sure about spiked carapace.. but its the same idea)

Anyway, from what I am told, drow is actually available in wc3 dota's captains mode.

and saying ezreal is only a problem because of built in flash is kinda stupid. Its not because of his blink at all - its because of the cooldown reduction provided by his q. He had problems before of his w being stupidly op, but thankfully they finally realized it has no business healing. (oh, yeah, and reducing attackspeed)

I've honestly yet to hear your argument for why someone like tristana isnt blatantly OP - She has the best level 6 burst damage in the game (a few casters will outburst her. Very few.). She has the best attackspeed steroid in the game. She has both self peel, a blink that resets on assists, and a healing debuff, not to mention a fairly strong slow. Oh, and has the highest range in the game.

Dont get me wrong - there are easily arguments to be made, but saying ezreal is purely OP because of his blink is the argument of someone who doesnt realize what actually makes people strong.

In related news - Dotabuff rankings went up today. I am in the 91%. (1636, plat)

[RCIX]

Trist has 2 options:

Max Q and have a horrible early game, or max W or E and have a horrible midgame (not building AP so she doesn't scale like casters). Granted, AD carries are kind of about the late game but a hypercarry has to be comped around and allowed to farm to do her job.

[RCIX]

Some design decisions of Riot kind of baffle me.  Like the decision to give Elise her Spider Form from level one, when Nidalee doesn't get Cougar Form til 6.  I don't think there's any doubt that Elise is a better hero than Nidalee over all.  She's much better at laning, her ranged nuke isn't a skillshot (and it HURTS), she has a ranged stun, does more damage in teamfights, and is overall a much safer and more reliable pick.  And I absolutely chalk a lot of this up to the fact that Elise gets her Spider Form from level 1.  If she had to wait til 6 like Nidalee, she'd still probably be a better hero, but only marginally, not overwhelmingly like she is now.

Elise is arguably worse at pushing, is entirely short ranged, doesn't have a 40% armor AND mr shred, and doesn't have an ally heal. =p The form change at level 1 vs 6 is A: because Nid is an older design and B: because Cougar form is *really* good at dueling. Nid would be almost unbearable to lane against if she could go cougar to run away from anything or snipe off kills at level 1.

[Wingflier]

Elise is arguably worse at pushing

They're both decent at pushing so I don't see this as being a huge deal either way.  Elise with her Volatile Spider and her Skittering Frenzy + Spiderlings can actually burst down a tower much faster than Nidalee with just her auto-attacks. 

Elise's short range hardly matters when she has a powerful, percentage-based, on-demand nuke that she can spam over and over again, making her one of the best laners in the game.  For that matter, Kat has VERY short range, but I wouldn't say that does much to hurt her laning phase

doesn't have a 40% armor AND mr shred,

Erm, if you're referring to Nidalee's traps, that's a 20% Armor and MR Reduction, not 40%, and that's only if they step on it.  Kind of hard to make someone step on a trap in the middle of a teamfight...It only becomes 40% at the highest level, and since most Nidalees max this skill last, it's going to be 20% for most of the game, and once again, it's really not that reliable.

Nid would be almost unbearable to lane against if she could go cougar to run away from anything or snipe off kills at level 1.

For one thing, she would have a tough time "sniping" off kills at level one with just Pounce

Secondly, I wasn't suggesting giving Nidalee Cougar Form at level one, I was questioning the logic behind giving Elise Spider Form at level one, which I consider to be equivalent to Cougar Form in practical usefulness throughout the game. 

You're also ignoring the fact that even if Nidalee has a few advantages over Elise (such as her ability to chase and escape in the jungle), Elise still has a far superior laning phase, in which she can shut down many heroes completely.  She is better at ganking because she has a stun and possibly the best gap closer in the game with Rappel.  She is better in teamfights well...because she does something.  That's pretty much all you have to do to be better than Nid in a teamfight...anything.  Overall she's just a better champion, which is why she's almost permanently banned in competitive play, where Nidalee is rarely even picked.

Once again, I don't think that taking away Elise's Spider Form til 6 would render her useless, she would just be on Nidalee's level, which granted, is not top tier.

[Wingflier]

Great: Amumu, Anivia, Blitz, Draven, Elise, Eve, EZ, Garen, Graves, Hecarim, Irelia, Jax, Jayce, Kat, Kayle, Khazix, Lee Sin, Lulu, Nami, Olaf, Orianna, Riven, Shen, Taric, Thresh, TF, Twitch, Vayne, Vi, Xin.

Good: Ahri, Akali, Alistar, Annie, Ashe, Brand, Cait, Cho, Darius, Diana, Janna, Jarvan, Kennen, Leona, Lux, Malzahar, MF, Morgana, Nautilus, Nocturne, Nunu, Panth, Renekton, Rengar, Rumble, Shaco, Sona, Talon, Teemo, Urgot, Varus, Wukong, Zed, Ziggs, Zilean, Zyra.

Average: Cass, Mundo, Fiora, Galio, Gangplank, Karthus, Kass, LeBlanc, Maokai, Mord, Nasus, Nidalee, Rammus, Ryze, Skarner, Soraka, Swain, Vlad, WW, Xerath.

Bad: Corki, Fiddle, Heimer, Karma, Kogmaw, Master Yi, Poppy, Sejuani, Singed, Sion, Sivir, Syndra, Tristana, Trynd, Veigar, Viktor, Voli.

Undecided: Gragas, Malphite, Shyvana, Trundle, Udyr, Yorick.

If I had to make a tier list, that's what it would look like.  For the heroes in the "undecided" category, I just haven't seen enough games with them to make a proper decision.  Or in the case of Malphite, I know he belong in either the "good" or "great" tier, but I'm concerned he's a little overrated.

By the way, a hero being in the "Average" or "Bad" category doesn't mean you can't own with them, they're just inferior to the top two categories.  I consider "Great" to be the best heroes in the game, while "Good" is not as powerful, but still viable in the hands of a good player.