Author Topic: Moba balance comparison, please comment  (Read 102873 times)

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #75 on: January 13, 2013, 02:05:24 PM »
Quote
I've never actually found khazix to be particularly strong. I tried to play him a bit close to release (was he buffed?) but he didn't feel worth playing.
Well, tell me his weakness and maybe I'll reconsider.

http://www.twitch.tv/riotgames/b/356059948

In this video (recent competitive game), fast forward to around 7:56:30 (that's 7 hours, 56 minutes, 30 seconds).  Show me another hero that can do that much damage, that quickly, with that much utility, and continually jump around every half second so that you can't even escape him.

All he had was a BF Sword and a Brutalizer...
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #76 on: January 13, 2013, 04:15:26 PM »
Quote
I've never actually found khazix to be particularly strong. I tried to play him a bit close to release (was he buffed?) but he didn't feel worth playing.
Well, tell me his weakness and maybe I'll reconsider.

http://www.twitch.tv/riotgames/b/356059948

In this video (recent competitive game), fast forward to around 7:56:30 (that's 7 hours, 56 minutes, 30 seconds).  Show me another hero that can do that much damage, that quickly, with that much utility, and continually jump around every half second so that you can't even escape him.

All he had was a BF Sword and a Brutalizer...
ROFL
khazix literally did nothing there! all he did was the old 'collect kills, get reset'. A tristana couldve done that. A Kat couldve done that. Hell, even a morgana showing up and pressing r couldve done that!

He was merely in the right place at the right time to collect kills. Well played by khazix's team being able to pull off and bait for him properly, but honestly khazix did nothing extraordinary there
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #77 on: January 13, 2013, 05:32:13 PM »
I'm sorry but I just flat out disagree with you. I've been watching a lot of competitive LoL lately, and I've never seen any of the heroes you listed do that. Obviously in a pub game, but that wasn't a pub game.

Morgana would have had to walk up to them to do that, in which case they would have just walked away. If she wasted her Flash, they would have just Flashed out of her ult and lived. What netted Khazix all of those kills was not only the ability to do massive AoE burst damage, but also he jumped 4 times. They couldn't get away from him. They could easily get away from Morgana.

Kat has a way to get in granted, but they could have simply stunned her out of her ultimate and killed her. Problem solved.

Tristana with a BF Sword and a Brutalizer doing THAT?! Ha! Tristana needs godly amounts of farm before she becomes useful, which is why she's a tier 5 champion and basically unused in competitive play from what I've seen.

There's a reason Khazix is permabanned in competitive play, and when he's not, that happens.

In fact of the champions you listed, Kat is the only one commonly being used.
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #78 on: January 13, 2013, 07:01:28 PM »
No - Youre just misinterpreting what happened. Morgana couldve easily killed two of them by casting ult alone,with or without flash.

If they had the ability to stun khazix, they would have. On the other hand, kat is less dependent on her ult now than she ever was - Even just her q/w/e couldve collected all of those kills. That argument also falls apart.

Tristana .. I dont think you understand. Tristana has a better jump than khazix. Tristana at level 6 actually has one of the best burst damages IN THE GAME. Surely a level 12 tristana jumping into that group of people could have collected the same kills, all else being equal. Keep in mind that tristana doesnt actually need items to have burst damage - items would only be gravy in this case.


And yet here we are, arguing about a completely insignificant portion of khazix's play (collecting free kills his team set up for him), when in reality we should be arguing about his actual problems.. And yet.. You are fixating on his ability to clean up after a fight. Have you ever seen a tryndamere clean up a fight? He does it pretty well too. Is he op? No.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #79 on: January 13, 2013, 07:28:53 PM »
@Lancefighter -

I feel like we're talking about a completely different game here.

If you honestly think that a Tristana with a Brutalizer and a BF Sword jumping into 4 enemy heroes would do absolutely anything but get destroyed, you're either thinking in pub terms, or you don't realize why Trist is pretty much never picked anymore competitively.

If you also think that a Katarina, with the farm equivalent to a Brutalizer and a BF Sword could kill 4 heroes at half health or more with just her Q, W, and E, you are also, sadly, sadly mistaken.  In fact, the Katarina on the other team used all her skills in the same teamfight just before Khazix arrived!  With even more farm, and with her full ultimate hitting Khazix's team, her damage paled in comparison to Khazix's, and also she didn't have the mobility he had to finish her kills off, because where she can "jump" one time, he can jump 4.

Quote
And yet here we are, arguing about a completely insignificant portion of khazix's play (collecting free kills his team set up for him)
You keep saying it was a set up, I think he was just late to the battle.  You keep acting like any hero could do what Khazix did there, but I think you're completely wrong.  With the farm Khazix had at that very moment, NO other hero (including Tryndamere, Kat, Morg, or anybody else) could not do that much AoE damage, while having that much mobility to chase anybody down who tried to get away.  This is why Khazix is pretty much permabanned in competitive play, and when he's not, his team usually wins.

Trynd is bad, he's not used anymore.  Mostly because his design is awful.

But we don't have to argue about it anymore really, I'm still waiting to hear what Khazix's weakness is.  If nobody can provide a clear weakness to the hero, then I have no reason to think he's anything but completely broken.
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #80 on: January 13, 2013, 11:02:01 PM »
I dont really understand where you are coming from still. What about an ap yi with 3k gold in items? (about what brut and bf costs). Thats a full deathcap.
Could he not alpha 5 people to death the same way under highlander? I think he couldve. You keep insisting that nobody else couldve done that, but honestly, there were no stuns left. There wasny anything to stop a kat ult. There was nothing to burst tristana with. Could karthus have walked in there, died, and pressed r for his penta? I think so.

I will grant you that that is probably an incredibly ideal fight for khazix - he landed multiple 2+man jumps, and at least one 3 man void spike thing. But that doesnt make him op - If two people stand next to each other when lich ults, are you going to say lich op? If the entire team groups up and gets echo'd or black holed.. Are those heros op? I dont really think so.
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #81 on: January 13, 2013, 11:24:10 PM »
In that replay, Kha'zix really is just doing clean-up.  Watch as right as Kha'zix enters, Ezreal still has pretty high health and he shifts away from Kha'zix towards Ryze.  Ryze proceeds to blow Ezreal up almost instantly, but Kha'zix sneaks in the KS.  Right after that you'll notice Cho comes in and Feasts on Amumu which brings him down into kill range for Kha'zix.  So yeah he did good damage, but Karthus could have done the same from anywhere on the map just by pressing R.  Darius could have spam-ulted them all.  Heck, Morgana's ult would have likely done the same.

Not saying Kha'zix isn't very strong, because I feel he probably does need a bit of a nerf.  Plus his evolution ability crushes Viktor's staff upgrade so much it is embarassing.  Poor Viktor.  I want to like him, I really do.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #82 on: January 17, 2013, 06:10:26 PM »
Well, in this patch Khazix and Eve got some much-needed nerfs, which means I'm much happier about the new current state of the game.  I.e., I'm playing other modes than Draft Mode now since I don't have to ban those 2 every game just to have fun.

Most of the other changes were really good too.  I've even told RCIX and a few other friends that Lee Sin was literally the jack-of-all-trades champion, who had no clear weaknesses, and in the Patch 2 spotlight video it seems they had come to the same conclusion.  It's nice to see his role become a little more focused, though I have no doubt he'll continue to be a solid champion.

I'm not too excited about the new Champion they're working on, who trades armor for this new "soul" mechanic.  I have no doubt that they could make it work, but considering how broken champions often are even when their mechanics really aren't that complicated to begin with on release or remake (*cough* Khazix/Evelyn/Rengar etc. *cough*), adding this complicated mechanic is either going to make the new hero insanely powerful or insanely useless.  That's my prediction anyway, we'll see if I'm right.  Chances are I'll be playing Draft Mode again for another couple weeks after that.

Other than that I think the game is moving in the right direction.  The jungle changes are good.  I agree with RCIX that Vi is a neat hero, though she's nothing groundbreaking like it seemed she might have been at first.  She's very similar to Xin in design, with some minor differences that make her more reliant on her ultimate for CC and kills, but still powerful in her own way.  Her Denting Blows mechanic is great against tanks or health stacking heroes, which is something I really enjoy about playing her; even with all the defensive item nerfs, bruisers and tanky AP still run the show in my opinion, which she's a good counter to.  I'm excited to see what else they have in store before Season 3 begins.

Edit: Oh also, one thing I've found about Vi is that she's also a good counter to Flash and champions with Flash/Dash escape mechanisms as well (so half the cast basically).  If you cast your ult just before they use it (requires some timing and prediction), you'll keep chasing them no matter how many times they Flash away from you.  I've secured some pretty unbelievable kills this way.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 06:15:34 PM by Wingflier »
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #83 on: January 17, 2013, 06:29:14 PM »
If I could permanently remove any one champ from the game, it would be Lee Sin.  I hate him with a passion.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #84 on: January 18, 2013, 10:41:42 PM »
K after my first 11 Games I finally have a rank.  I'm 9-2 so far and I'm above 1500.  My goal is to make it to the 1800s and I'll be happy.  Anyone know what the requirement is for diamond?
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #85 on: January 20, 2013, 11:29:22 PM »
If I could permanently remove any one champ from the game, it would be Lee Sin.  I hate him with a passion.
After the patch (in which both Lee Sin and Khazix were nerfed), I'd still rather face 2 Lee Sins than 1 Khazix.  They didn't nerf him enough by a long shot.  Lee Sin now has a clear weakness, he tapers off late game.  I still don't see what Khazix can't do, or what his weakness is.
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #86 on: January 21, 2013, 12:19:53 AM »
It occurs to me - You dont play against nunu much, do you. And by play against, i mean during the laning phase.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #87 on: January 21, 2013, 01:45:42 AM »
Well I'm not sure how that applies to this discussion.  Khazix is typically a mid or a top, in which Nunu isn't played.  Are you suggesting that the enemy team put a Nunu in Khazix's lane just to counter him or something?
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #88 on: January 21, 2013, 02:24:04 AM »
Oh, no, I am just wondering how much exposure youve had to other VERY anti-fun/imba heros.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #89 on: January 21, 2013, 01:05:16 PM »
Nunu...imba?  Haha.  I've never had a problem with him.  There are better supports, junglers, and solo laners.  I'm not sure what is so "anti-fun" or imbalanced about him.
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