Author Topic: Moba balance comparison, please comment  (Read 125468 times)

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #780 on: April 10, 2015, 01:26:31 PM »
Ugh, sometimes the MOBA community can even get to me.

Today I was playing a ranked HOTS game with 4 other randoms.

I was Kerrigan, a tank/assassin (perhaps would be classified as "bruiser" in LoL) who thrives in the thick of things but also has trouble disengaging from a fight if things begin to turn sour. As such, her main role seems to be putting out as much aoe damage as possible before she expires in a fight, something which she can perform very well under the right conditions.

We also had a Muradin and an Illidan on our team. For the first half of the game, everything was going well. We were clearly ahead, winning all the team fights, joking around and being friendly in chat. In fact, my team was saying some really funny things, and I was enjoying their company more than I had enjoyed a team's company in a long time. It looked like we were on top of the world.

Then suddenly, we lost a single teamfight, and I swear to God, the entire team turned on themselves like cannibals. What was once friendly banter turned into outright rage and insults about how stupid we were and how worthless the team was. The transition was so dramatic that even after 10+ years of playing these games, it even surprised me.

Muradin was a decent player I guess but had chosen Haymaker, a far inferior ultimate in almost every way to his Avatar, kept talking about how bad we all were. Maybe he was half joking, I couldn't tell. Sometimes it's hard to distinguish trolling from actual insults (does it really make a difference?). Though I found it ironic that he was blaming us for losing (even though we weren't losing) despite the fact that the main reason we were losing fights is because we didn't have a tank, since he had elected to skill one of the most utterly useless ultimates in the game. I didn't say anything though.

Then Illidan, who is colloquially known as the most overpowered hero in the game, a burst assassin who has no mana and infinite chasing ability, as well as putting out insane amounts of single-target damage, and who has powerful engagement and disengagement abilities, began yelling at our team to stop dying, calling us feeders, and blaming all our deaths for the fact that we were now losing (even though at no point in the game, were we ever losing).

So anyway, this goes on for about 10 minutes as the game swings back and forth, until we finally take two of their Forts, which is like the LoL equivalent to an Inhibitor and the Smite equivalent to a Phoenix. We're clearly ahead at this point, but shortly after we lose another major teamfight and the insults and ceaseless berating gets worse. "GG" begins to be confidently typed out in allied chat, since apparently our team is convinced everyone else sucks and we're going to lose (for the record, we never even lost a Fort).

Illidan continues to go on his tirade about how everyone else is a feeder and that not dying is that hard and blah blah blah, "you're feeders and you suck". At this point, I've had it, and a take a quick glance at the scoreboard. It is true, Illidan has about 1/3rd of the deaths of some team members, but he also has the lowest hero damage in the entire game. In fact, his hero damage is even lower than our Brightwing, a healer who basically does no damage whatsoever. So in other words, his contribution as an assassin and in a teamfight is almost non-existent, which perfectly explains which he never dies - he hasn't been doing anything. I blatantly point this out, point out that our healer is more of an assassin than he is, and that he should shut his mouth and play the game, at which point he desperately exclaims, "I can't take this anymore, I'm going to mute you."

Despite all the childish stupidity and infighting, we eventually win, once again, without even losing a Fort, and I seriously consider pulling a pistol out and making a meat pie with my brain.

Oh by the way, today is my birthday!
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Offline Mick

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #781 on: April 10, 2015, 01:49:04 PM »
Happy Birthday!

Yeah, I sometimes am still surprised how south the attitudes can go very quickly. Thankfully, I haven't had too many blowups, and nothing near the level you described, but there are definitely toxic players out there, and they make things much less fun.

Things I've observed:

* The obnoxious players tend to be the ones playing the worst. Occasionally they really are the better player angry that they are put on a team of "their lessers", but that's rarely the case from my personal observations. They bash others because they can't admit their own faults.
* The game gets exponentially worse based on the number of people who start slinging shit. If one guy starts going off and the other four basically ignore him, it won't get to far. When another player decides to start slinging back, it just explodes the situation. That's why I personally just stop all communication with the toxic player, I don't necessarily mute, in case they say something relevant to the game, but if they are just spamming the screen with racial epithets and other mouth diarrhea (thankfully that seems rare), I'll mute easily.
* Telling a player that he is bad doesn't seem to suddenly make him play much better, often it will have the opposite effect.
* When a player gets especially obnoxious, watching them get killed by the other team brings a smile to my face. So in a small way, they also spread joy!

Offline TheVampire100

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #782 on: April 10, 2015, 02:10:00 PM »
http://www.nerfnow.com/img/1197/1905.png

I think the whole MOBA Community is somehow contamined. I've never seen anything worse as in MOBAs. Or maybe I have but I don't remember right now.
The problem with MOBAs is, you have to rely more on ypur team mates a sin other cooperative games like for example Left 4 Dead or team Fortress 2. While of course the single person always needs the backup from your team, you can do more in team fights as in a MOBA.
People know and see this and if they fail they will tend to give their tea mates the fault even if they made their own mistakes. We had someone picking Drow Ranger in a Dota2 Match. Drow is especially strong in a full ranged team but more or less worthless when everyone is melee except Drow. she can still do a lot damage on her own, but the team suffers the fact that tehy cannot use Drows passive ability to enhance the damage of all ranged heroes in the team. This single ability is what Drow let's really shine. She can push the whole strengh of the team to a new level if she is priberly maxed, making even weak supports to strong foes.

We had however a mostly melee team. I'm not sure anymore if we had only melee or that someone picked a ranged hero beside Drow but I know that I picked Treant protector who is melee. If you pick Drow you should make sure that the composition of the team benefits from it.
After that the Drow player shoed to be very suicidal, runnign behind heroes he thought he could still kill. We told him multiple times not to run away on his own. The result was, he died quite a lot and he started to accuse me of being a bot (despite being clearly a player) and said the other team are all noobs. He died and died and died and after every death his sanity cracked a little more. At the end he was like a raging tornado, destroying everything in his path (but just with his words). The rest of the team was currently winnign the game but since Drow didn't care anymore about us, he just went ahead, ran into the enemy territory and let himself kill because. Oh, and the whole purpose of the rest of the team was of course to protect him or at least that's what he wnated us to think.
Like I said above, we won but not because of Drow, actually Drow made the whole victory harder because he fed the enemy heroes quite fat and we had difficulties to defeat them. Still we were clearly the noobs.

Offline Zebeast46

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #783 on: April 10, 2015, 03:45:31 PM »
Also in my experience people are really only toxic in mobas, and as vampire said it is because it is a team game, but I also think it is because a mobas matchs are longer and that it is entirely skillbased so people get upset when they lose a 1v1 lane, because they realize that the person they were playing against was better than them, so then they start making excuses trying to say that this 40 minute game lost was not their fault but someone else's.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #784 on: April 11, 2015, 05:46:42 AM »
Nah, I've seen just as bad in the fighting-game genre.   They get just as nasty, except that they dont have the excuse of blaming someone else for their loss since it's a 1-on-1 genre.  Which is.... pretty sad, really. 

The only good point is, since it's one on one you dont have to worry about some teammate being a jerk and thus ruining your chances.  But still.... they're nasty.  I definitely dont like that community one bit.

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #785 on: April 11, 2015, 06:56:06 AM »
There are, sadly, not many communities online that don't have absolute monsters in it. I think some of the few are more "Intellectual" games that don't really require skill so much as patience. Such as AI War, 4x type games, Dwarf Fortress, roguelikes etc etc.


Any game where you can flaunt skill around and inflate your e-peen is inevitably going to be contaminated with people with a sence of insecurity that will compensate for their insecurity by bullying others around to artificially inflate their sense of self.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2015, 12:57:08 PM by Mánagarmr »
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Offline Pumpkin

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #786 on: April 11, 2015, 07:12:42 PM »
There are, sadly, any communities online that don't have absolute monsters in it. I think some of the few are more "Intellectual" games that don't really require skill so much as patience. Such as AI War, 4x type games, Dwarf Fortress, roguelikes etc etc.
Is there a link between the fact that I read this post and the fact that I play AI War, DF and NetHack?

Sorry, "Off Topic" effect.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #787 on: December 16, 2015, 09:27:07 PM »
"Inner peace is the void of expectation. It is the absence of our shared desperation to feel a certain way."

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #788 on: December 16, 2015, 09:59:12 PM »
http://www.dota2.com/balanceofpower

That's a pretty dang big update.

SMITE is currently winding up for the Smite World Championship in Atlanta in January so no major update will be released until after its done and season 3 begins. But there's been some leaks and hints at what is coming next.
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Offline TheVampire100

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #789 on: December 16, 2015, 10:36:36 PM »
They nerfed Doom too much in my own opinion. I know that he was really powerful with the last bit patch but this is alittle ridiculous. Especially the attack speed nerf. Now he takes way too long to land a single strike. Doom without Moonshard is no viable option 8except you turn him into full support of course).
I guess now he is *puts facehuggers on* doomed.

Offline crazyroosterman

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #790 on: December 16, 2015, 11:07:59 PM »
the amazing thing to me is that this thread was made 3 years ago and its still getting commented on.
c.r

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #791 on: December 16, 2015, 11:15:58 PM »
the amazing thing to me is that this thread was made 3 years ago and its still getting commented on.
Dazzle put Shallow Grave on this a loooong time ago.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #792 on: December 17, 2015, 12:08:30 AM »
They nerfed Doom too much in my own opinion. I know that he was really powerful with the last bit patch but this is alittle ridiculous. Especially the attack speed nerf. Now he takes way too long to land a single strike. Doom without Moonshard is no viable option 8except you turn him into full support of course).
I guess now he is *puts facehuggers on* doomed.
Well, they replaced Level Death, which was basically a useless skill that I've always hated (for about 10 years now), with Infernal Blade. Ironically, I had suggested a Doom remake several years back, replacing Level Death with a similar skill called "Chaos Blade". I don't know if it's just a coincidence that they used something similar to my idea, but overall it's a nice to see it implemented.

Overall, we'll have to see how he performs with the new skill. It might be that even with all the nerfs to his attack speed and such, the new skill makes up for it. Either way, he needed a nerf.

Let's just hope that with the new skill, it wasn't an overnerf.

Quote
Dazzle put Shallow Grave on this a loooong time ago.
Heh heh. Your bad jokes are legendary Keith :D
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Offline crazyroosterman

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #793 on: December 17, 2015, 12:10:46 AM »
They nerfed Doom too much in my own opinion. I know that he was really powerful with the last bit patch but this is alittle ridiculous. Especially the attack speed nerf. Now he takes way too long to land a single strike. Doom without Moonshard is no viable option 8except you turn him into full support of course).
I guess now he is *puts facehuggers on* doomed.

Quote
Dazzle put Shallow Grave on this a loooong time ago.
Heh heh. Your bad jokes are legendary Keith :D

that was a joke?!.
c.r

Offline TheVampire100

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #794 on: December 17, 2015, 12:32:18 AM »
They nerfed Doom too much in my own opinion. I know that he was really powerful with the last bit patch but this is alittle ridiculous. Especially the attack speed nerf. Now he takes way too long to land a single strike. Doom without Moonshard is no viable option 8except you turn him into full support of course).
I guess now he is *puts facehuggers on* doomed.
Well, they replaced Level Death, which was basically a useless skill that I've always hated (for about 10 years now), with Infernal Blade. Ironically, I had suggested a Doom remake several years back, replacing Level Death with a similar skill called "Chaos Blade". I don't know if it's just a coincidence that they used something similar to my idea, but overall it's a nice to see it implemented.

Overall, we'll have to see how he performs with the new skill. It might be that even with all the nerfs to his attack speed and such, the new skill makes up for it. Either way, he needed a nerf.

Let's just hope that with the new skill, it wasn't an overnerf.

Quote
Dazzle put Shallow Grave on this a loooong time ago.
Heh heh. Your bad jokes are legendary Keith :D

If you hate Level Death you didn't use it often enough. Level Death was one of the strongest nukes and it granted Doom kills from fleeing enemies. It had a really low cooldown and 20% max hp damage on the spot. You could spam it in teamfights. the replaced ability is worse in every single way, the only thing it does better is the ministunand that it's an auto-cast ability. But it's also now melee, making it harder to kill enemies that run away. Combining this with his attack speed nerf it seems really useless for me. At least they could've kept the current attack speed (which was already very low) so he can better benefit from the new skill but they didn't.

I played him btw last match and he was really bad to play. I replaced the Phase boots with the Power Threads because otherwise he wouldn't get the early attack speed he needs so desperately.

On another side note, I'm happy what they did to most other heroes I play. Sand Kings new scepter bonus looks at first terrible but actually it's really useful. I stopped using scepter anyway long ago because the few more pulses didn't make the cut in the end game to kill somebody. Sand Kings ultimate is really powerless in the endgame, good for crowd damage but the damage to a single hero is pretty low and most heroes can sustain it anyway. However, double the burrowstrike range, that's something different. I tried it out and holy shit, this was useful. More or less it replaces the blink dagger. You can jump in and out of fights with the bonus of having a stun and caustic finale applied to everyone you hit. This makes up for some nasty surprises where sand king can literally crash any party. A really nice initiator. Also I laughed so hard about Pudges hard tries to kill me. He hooked me so often but even before the hook was finished I activated already burrowstrike and at the exact moment the hook ended, I jumped out of range and out of his reach. He didn't even had the time to activate his ultimate.  Because sand king is my favourite I appreciate this change. It makes him the perfect initiator in battles.

 

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