Author Topic: Moba balance comparison, please comment  (Read 183082 times)

Offline Wingflier

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,753
  • To add me on Steam, click the little Steam icon ^
Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #735 on: March 02, 2015, 10:08:45 am »
Well in DotA, once you destroy all 3 lanes of barracks, the creeps become "mega creeps". I believe DotA is unique in that sense. In the other games, destroying a lane (inhibitor, phoenix, whatever) only makes the creeps in *that lane* stronger temporarily. In DotA, killing a barracks makes the creeps in that lane stronger permanently AND if you destroy all 3 lanes, the creeps become godlike. When I say they become godlike, they essentially become mini-heroes in themselves. They have over a thousand health, they deal 100 damage per attack, and they attack fairly quickly, and there are a ton of them.

Generally, once you defeat all 3 lanes, you can sit back and watch them end the game for you. There's very little need usually to worry about losing the game at that point, because for the team facing the mega creeps, it's essentially become an endless game of tower defense that only gets harder the longer it goes.

To win a game once you're facing mega creeps is unheard of.

I agree the editing kind of sucked, but it was the feat that was impressive.
"Inner peace is the void of expectation. It is the absence of our shared desperation to feel a certain way."

Offline Mánagarmr

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,272
  • if (isInRange(target)) { kill(target); }
Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #736 on: March 02, 2015, 04:06:09 pm »
Oh, so that's what happened. All I could see was some badly cut together explosions.
Click here to get started with Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports.

Thank you for contributing to making the game better!

Offline Wingflier

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,753
  • To add me on Steam, click the little Steam icon ^
Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #737 on: March 05, 2015, 12:20:52 pm »
So Heroes of the Storm has become my new favorite MOBA, at least for now.

I think it has the best hero designs of any MOBA game, and the massive formula improvements such as the complete removal of last hitting, the mitigation/destruction of the oh-so-boring laning phase, the divergence from the selfish solo-farming encouraging mechanics, the countless unique and interesting maps for the main game that are mandatory to play, and the objectives/mercenary camps which always keep the game fast-paced and exciting has pushed it over the top for me.

Pros:
*No last hitting
*No gold
*No items
*Almost non-existent laning phase
*Selfish play is not rewarded
*6 different maps (not optional)
*Incredibly unique and diverse hero design
*Team objectives
*Very balanced

On the point of balance, I feel Blizzard has done an extremely impressive job. I can't really point to anybody who seems particularly overpowered or useless, except for Murky, who will probably need to be redesigned at some point. Everybody else seems solid and well done. The hero designs are what really makes the game shine for me. The character designs are very reminiscent of their original lore and concepts, and yet still somehow remain powerful and relevant when combined into the same universe. For example, one would wonder how to make Diablo, lord of the underworld himself, and one of the most notorious villains in video game history as powerful and unbeatable as he was portrayed in the games. Well, they did a pretty dang good job, all things considered.

One other notable improvement that I've noticed is that, when my team loses, I never feel as though we were robbed or beaten by the game's mechanics. It's always a battle of skill in this game. There's never that one player who chose a hard carry and farmed for 45 minutes until he became unstoppable. There's never several members of your team neglecting to buy teleports or building their items completely incorrectly. The game has a "slingshot" effect so that, even if your team falls behind on levels, a couple ganks or a good teamfight will catch you right back up. So what really determines who wins or loses is, quite frankly, which team is better. When I see that my team is quite clearly inferior in skill to theirs, I don't fret whatsoever like in the other games. I know that no amount of gold or items will ever make me the superior force which carries the rest of my team to victory. I see my team is inferior to theirs and I realize it was a game well played. It usually ends within a few minutes and I go onto the next one, no fuss and no frustration. Which isn't to say there aren't close games where the teams are incredibly evenly matched, but that's usually when you have friends who know what they're doing and can work with you to clutch out a victory.

Cons:
*Boring as all heck to watch
*Must own 10 heroes to play ranked
*Gain the game's "money currency" (IP) very slowly

So my biggest problem with the game is that you have to be level 30 and own 10 heroes to play ranked. I can see why they do this, but the issue is that you're going to reach level 30 LONG before you unlock ten heroes, which is I'm assuming, Blizzard's plan to make money. So far I've spent $15 on the game, and I don't plan to spend more. I bought myself a 'Stim Pack' (IP boost) which will hopefully allow me to farm the gold required to get my ten heroes and get into the competitive aspect of the game by the month of April.

Also, the game may be fun to play but I predict it may not perform as well as an e-sport as some of the other titles. I think the reason why it's so boring to watch is that, like a movie, any good form of entertainment has to have suspense, build up, character development, and then a climax (or several climaxes depending) to keep the audience interested. Heroes of the Storm is just a 20-30 minute climax from beginning to end. There's very little suspense or build up, it's just battle after glorious battle. In that sense the audience probably becomes a little polarized with endless explosions and flashy effects hitting them in the face nonstop the entire time, without much of a 'story'. This is the reason why DotA does e-sports so well, because it has a lot of build up and suspense, then erupts into those epic teamfights where the 5-man blackhole or clutch Wisp relocate can really get your adrenaline pumping. Also because kills in HOTS don't seem to make that much of a difference. Imagine if killing a main character in an action movie made little to no difference on the outcome of the film. That's essentially HOTS in a nutshell, where in DotA, killing a character definitely has the biggest impact of all the MOBAs I've seen so far.

Anyway, HOTS wins the gold medal for me, as far as I'm concerned, at least for now. We'll see what happens when Valve moves DotA over to their brand new Source 2 engine which they've just announced, and adds custom game support.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 12:22:58 pm by Wingflier »
"Inner peace is the void of expectation. It is the absence of our shared desperation to feel a certain way."

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,109
Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #738 on: March 05, 2015, 12:32:39 pm »
Yeah, I'll be quite interested to see how the game ends up doing in the e-sport arena.

I kinda have mixed feelings about it, when it comes to watching it.  It lacks the "individual character is important" aspect that other mobas have, but at the same time there's both CONSTANT battle between players/teams, yet also alot of decision making on how to go about objectives and deal with different situations, meaning constant movement on the map through the whole match. 

Though, sometimes the "single character is important" aspect of mobas can definitely be a bad thing (if one player is WAY too fed, the rest of the match can be uninteresting for others on BOTH teams, in many games).

So yeah, mixed on that bit.

It'll definitely come down to the individual as to wether or not it's enjoyable to watch.... it's not going to draw in the usual crowd AS much as other new games in the genre can, simply because of those specific differences.


I still have not had all that much time with it myself, as I've yet to resolve the stupidest error in the history of launchers, which is "ZOMG Flash is not updated (except it is), so I dont know how to download the patch for this one game!  Just go play Diablo, that'll patch just fine."   Just..... uuuuuugh.  It'll take some major patience to deal with that stupidity so I havent done it yet.  ....partly also because I've been obsessing over Nuclear Throne alot lately.

Offline Wingflier

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,753
  • To add me on Steam, click the little Steam icon ^
Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #739 on: March 05, 2015, 12:54:38 pm »
Quote
Though, sometimes the "single character is important" aspect of mobas can definitely be a bad thing (if one player is WAY too fed, the rest of the match can be uninteresting for others on BOTH teams, in many games).
Well in an unorganized pub game, where you're the player, this usually is a bad thing, as I mentioned. There's nothing fun about facing an opponent who has become so fed that he's unstoppable and impossible to kill. It's a nightmare in which 60 minute games often end in disaster.

However, as a spectator sport, it's like watching Michael Jordan thrust his crotch into someone's face while he slam dunks the basketball into the net, shattering the backboard and spraying the enemy team with glass.

It's two very different perspectives.
"Inner peace is the void of expectation. It is the absence of our shared desperation to feel a certain way."

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,109
Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #740 on: March 05, 2015, 01:24:06 pm »
Quote
Though, sometimes the "single character is important" aspect of mobas can definitely be a bad thing (if one player is WAY too fed, the rest of the match can be uninteresting for others on BOTH teams, in many games).
Well in an unorganized pub game, where you're the player, this usually is a bad thing, as I mentioned. There's nothing fun about facing an opponent who has become so fed that he's unstoppable and impossible to kill. It's a nightmare in which 60 minute games often end in disaster.

However, as a spectator sport, it's like watching Michael Jordan thrust his crotch into someone's face while he slam dunks the basketball into the net, shattering the backboard and spraying the enemy team with glass.

It's two very different perspectives.

I dunno, I honestly never got that from watching those.   Watching any game in the genre, my attention would start to wander whenever a player was clearly becoming very fed and nearing the "unstoppable" point, because it's like, well of COURSE he's going to now destroy such-and-such in combat.  His stats are soaring!  And each further kill makes him even stronger!   It just never seems very interesting to me.  The basketball comparison doesnt work for me due to that;  it's not like whenever Jordan scored enough baskets, he'd go Super Saiyan or something.  He still had to use genuine skill and ability to make each subsequent score, whereas often in mobas, you just get the higher stats, and from there you dont really have to try very hard.  Just use your superior power to overrun the genuinely weaker enemy. 

Dont get me wrong, I still really enjoy watching matches for the games I'm interested in, but every now and then a video will be of a match going THAT way, with the one super-powered character just running over a bunch of Goombas over and over, and... yeah, just not as interesting. 

In my view though it's quite a minor complaint, not a major issue.

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,332
  • A Paladin Without A Crusade...
Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #741 on: March 05, 2015, 04:18:44 pm »
I actually got invited to the BETA of HOTS so I'm going to be toying around with it for the next couple of weeks/months, see how it grabs me. It's going to be really hard to pull me away from SMITE that I'm still enjoying. I have done the tutorial and I'm liking what I'm seeing so far. The lack of buying items is completely throwing me off though. haha.

Update on Season 2 of SMITE: The Support role in SMITE is broken right now. The tl;dr: when supports die once in Conquest, they're FRACKED for the rest of the game due to lack of tankiness and capability to farm.

They fall farther behind in levels than everyone else. So, whatever natural tankiness is gone when they're 4-8 levels down to everyone else. A problem I'm hoping Hi-Rez addresses next patch. It's been painful to watch the SPL right now because you can just see supports getting clipped left right and center to keep them down. It was a bit of a problem in Season 1 but changes to the hunters and farming has exacerbated the problem. It's really discouraging playing the role because not only is it one of the most demanding roles you can play, it's the most thankless role to boot. We thought the removal of early penetration from the game would help. Instead, the power changes and the changes to Hunters didn't really help us at all. Idk what the solution to fixing it at this point is, but we need something to prevent supports from falling 4+ levels behind everyone else.

« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 04:26:54 pm by KingIsaacLinksr »
Casual reviewer with a sense of justice.
Visit the Arcen Mantis to help: https://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/
A Paladin's Blog. Long form videogame reviews focusing on mechanics and narrative analyzing. Plus other stuff. www.kingisaaclinksr.com

Offline Mánagarmr

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,272
  • if (isInRange(target)) { kill(target); }
Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #742 on: March 06, 2015, 05:18:11 am »
Yep, supporting has issues in Smite right now. It's extremely snowbally. A support that gets ahead gets AHEAD of the other support, and catching up as support is virtually impossible. Otherwise Smite's in a far better position now than it was in S1.


As far as HotS, well...it's got the same problem as every other MOBA out there: The goddamn perspective.
Click here to get started with Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports.

Thank you for contributing to making the game better!

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,109
Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #743 on: March 06, 2015, 09:33:36 am »
Yep, supporting has issues in Smite right now. It's extremely snowbally. A support that gets ahead gets AHEAD of the other support, and catching up as support is virtually impossible. Otherwise Smite's in a far better position now than it was in S1.


As far as HotS, well...it's got the same problem as every other MOBA out there: The goddamn perspective.

You mean the top-down view?

I dunno, I have a love-hate relationship with it myself.  On one hand, Smite's feels more dynamic, and I dont have to control my movement with the blasted mouse.  On the other hand, the traditional view means I can see completely around my character and dont have to be spinning around all the time just to stay aware of things.

I just wish I didn't have to control damn near every freaking MOBA with the mouse for movement.  Ugh.  It's never been a control style that I've ever liked.  And it's even more annoying in a competitive game.  At least in something like Diablo nobody's around to complain about the fact that I just clicked on a horrible elite death monster instead of clicking to move somewhere and thusly ran over and tried to swat it, dying instantly.  Misclicks in mobas drive me crazy.

Other than that though, I could really go either way with it.

Offline Mánagarmr

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,272
  • if (isInRange(target)) { kill(target); }
Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #744 on: March 06, 2015, 10:16:43 am »
That's the thing. I feel much more in control of things with SMITE's way of doing it, and the fact that I do not have 360 vision makes it more exciting for me. But mostly it's because I really can't stand having to click my way around like I'm some RTS unit. It's just way too clumbsy.
Click here to get started with Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports.

Thank you for contributing to making the game better!

Offline Wingflier

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,753
  • To add me on Steam, click the little Steam icon ^
Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #745 on: March 06, 2015, 12:04:03 pm »
The fact that you control one unit in what was originally an RTS setting (where you controlled hundreds) is a bit strange, given the nature of the MOBA game's design. To be fair to DotA though, there are good reasons for this because there are many heroes with powerful pets or dozens of illusions which you can control individually. In addition, one of the most powerful items in the game summons two necro minions that have to be microed for optimal effect. So I can see why it's necessary there, you couldn't do that stuff in 3rd or 1st person mode. The other games just seem to be copying it because people were already used to it, as far as I can tell. Though to be fair it has seemed to work out quite successfully.
"Inner peace is the void of expectation. It is the absence of our shared desperation to feel a certain way."

Offline Mánagarmr

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,272
  • if (isInRange(target)) { kill(target); }
Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #746 on: March 06, 2015, 01:30:27 pm »
Oh I'm not saying the games are bad. They clearly are not ^^ the perspective probably brings as much success to them as anything. It's just a personal distaste for it ^^
Click here to get started with Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports.

Thank you for contributing to making the game better!

Offline Wingflier

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,753
  • To add me on Steam, click the little Steam icon ^
Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #747 on: March 06, 2015, 03:27:03 pm »
By the way, I know Blizzard is now sending out waves of HOTS beta invites to the current beta testers in their e-mails. If anybody has some extra invites they aren't using, please toss me one. I have a best friend who I really want to play with. Thanks guys. As soon as I get mine I'll share too.
"Inner peace is the void of expectation. It is the absence of our shared desperation to feel a certain way."

Offline Aklyon

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,089
Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #748 on: March 06, 2015, 09:24:41 pm »
I got a key today, and while I'm still rather unconvinced this is a genre I'd play much of...Wingflier's post (the big one, not the smaller following ones) is interesting.

Offline Zebeast46

  • Full Member Mark III
  • ***
  • Posts: 219
Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #749 on: March 07, 2015, 12:15:56 pm »
Aagh!!! I wanna get into Heroes of the Storm so badly, but I probably will not considering I just recently signed up. Does anyone know when it is being released?
AI 1 = Chris.

AI 2 = Keith.

Taken from Bognor

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk