Author Topic: Moba balance comparison, please comment  (Read 183263 times)

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #540 on: June 01, 2014, 09:51:12 am »
We just broke 8 million. Will most likely reach the 10 million dollar stretch goal within the next week or two. The only question now is, will they add even more stretch goals after that? How high can this thing go?
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Offline Misery

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #541 on: June 02, 2014, 02:36:13 am »
waaaaayyyyyyy too much for a gaming event by my view.   Though, I'm not the sort to understand the appeal of the compendium either.  Some concepts are difficult for me to grasp, and that thing has those.   I understand the advertising technique around it, at least.

Part of it though is also just a lack of interest in the event.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #542 on: June 02, 2014, 08:09:01 am »
It's understandable, if you're not a DotA player, watching a DotA tournament would probably be quite boring to you.

I'm not a League player but I spend a lot of time watching streams on Twitch, and LoL streams (such as tournaments) are some of the most popular. Sometimes when I'm bored and there's nothing else to watch I'll pop into one of the tournament streams and I'm just bored to tears. I think maybe if the game interested me more I'd probably be more excited about how the game was progressing or which team was going to win the tournament but I just can't bring myself to care.

Obviously everyone has their different reasons for why they choose one MOBA over the other. Often times it really just depends on which MOBA you began with because that's the one you're used to and most comfortable with and so you'll stick with that one.

Sure DotA has a lot of kind of silly mechanics and unintuitive design and a learning curve which could probably make a violin player smash his oak instrument into the monitor screen, but once you get past that, I find that the depth and player potential is vastly superior to any of the others.

Just the other day, I was playing League with a friend because she asked me to. She wanted to support and for me to play the carry. So having not played much within the past year or so, I just picked up Ashe. Most of the game was pretty boring, we won our lane handily, there was some harassment going on, some positioning here and there, and tons of last hitting. However nothing really got interesting until I hit 6, when I could start making plays with Enchanted Crystal Arrow. I have this thing like what, every 100 seconds at level 1? It's a nice stun, it's got a huge range, and does decent damage etc. However, while using Ashe I realized how bored to tears I was.

Then, in the process of playing Ashe with my mind going blank, I realized how similar her ult was to the regular skill of a DotA hero. Mirana has an ability, that she can get at LEVEL ONE, which stuns up to 5 seconds, has a huge range, and has a 17 second cooldown instead of 100? I mean sure, Ashe's arrow is mapwide, but it doesn't even stun as long! At max range it stuns for 3 seconds. At max range PotM's arrow stuns for 5 seconds, and I can use it from level 1, every 17 seconds, for 100 mana, and it's basically the same skill in almost every way except better.

Playing League is like nerfing myself. I get a better Ashe ult at level 1, that doesn't even include what all the other skills do. Oh what, Ashe gets Flash she can use every 300 seconds and Ghost she can use every 180? Impressive. Mirana gets a built in Flash + Ghost except with a much longer range and an 18 second cooldown instead of 5 minutes. Ashe also doesn't get a 300 damage aoe nuke which can also deal 525 damage to a single target. Ashe also doesn't get a global ultimate which makes her entire team INVISIBLE for 75 mana.

There is basically no advantage of Ashe over Mirana. I know it's a different game with slightly different mechanics, and I know that all the heroes in League are just as weak as Ashe in different ways while all the heroes in DotA are as powerful as Mirana in different ways, but that's the whole point. With Mirana I can do so much more, and have such a higher impact on the game, than I ever could as Ashe. Ashe has slowing arrows you say? Mirana can buy items which slow the target just as much or more as Ashe's arrows do without even using mana.

For me at least, that's why DotA is so much more interesting to me. I'm watching a game full of Miranas, not Ashes.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #543 on: June 02, 2014, 08:57:09 am »
Eh, my problems with Dota arent just in the "mechanics dont make sense" department, as I've never had trouble understanding complicated-as-hell games (I wouldnt be into Arcen's games if that were the case, hah!) but are  partly due to the slower pacing of certain things, combined with the faster pacing of others.  Laning, for instance, is dirt-freakin'-slow.   Of all of the mobas I've tried, it is by far the most boring in this game compared to all of the others, regardless of strategy involved.  Now, part of this is just me:  I have the attention span and patience of something that cant be bothered to finish this analogy.  If nothing is exploding or firing deathrays or summoning ghosts or monkeys or something, I'm probably getting restless and losing interest.  The laning phase of Dota, when ganks and such are not happening, tend to be JUST last-hitting.  There's little back and forth between opposing players in each lane, which tends to bother me.  All of the other mobas pull that one off, so they keep my interest a bit better.  The full combat, when it happens in Dota, tends to be over too fast, due to the extreme lethality of spells and such.... so there's lots of slow periods between the really short exciting periods.   The more drawn out combat of the other games keeps my interest easier as the chaos extends longer.   Depth of mechanics and such is great and all, but in my case it matters little if my attention is wandering.

I'm like this with pretty much any genre.  The most competetive type of game I play, and the genre I'm best at, is fighting games, and in those I'm either going absolutely batshit berserk, or I'm probably bored. Which also means I dont play the slower ones much, such as Capcom's fighters, preferring things like Arc's games (Guilty Gear, Blazblue, Persona) instead.  Also have a rather warped sense of what counts as slow or fast when it comes to.... basically anything.  Most things are too slow, as far as I'm concerned.  So that doesnt tend to help much with the moba genre in a general sense.


Not to mention the blasted last-hitting.  Dawngate and Strife (for what I've been able to play of them so far anyway, bah) are becoming my favorites partly due to their de-focus on the last-hit mechanic.   Sure as heck aint the only reason, but it helps ALOT.  League I like but it keeps it in a bit too much compared to the others.  Though, in that one I can use spells/skills to last-hit, so that's more interesting/faster, though that can be done in those two as well.

I will say though that League tends not to have enough of "leave lane to do stuff" moments (specifically, leaving lane to do stuff that isnt warding.  There's enough of THAT in there.)  That's something I notice about it alot.  All of the other ones I've tried do that aspect quite a bit better.  That's probably the main downside to League for me:  it's exciting enough I suppose, but too easy to get stuck in a rut when it's not time for a full teamfight.



As for tournaments themselves..... yeah, the patience and attention-span bit.  Watching an individual match, when I'm in the mood, can be very entertaining.  But following the event overall?  No.  And it depends on the genre also.... mobas tend to be easy to watch when I'm feeling patient, or what I call "patient" anyway.  They're complicated and stuff keeps happening.  Fighting games, my favorite genre, tend to bore the heck outta me in tournaments as the players involved are likely using tactics that I find dull.   And the wait between matches though.... that's the worst part.  Ugh.  Cant do that.   Or scheduling, knowing that such and such match will be at such and such time, for the longer tourneys like the International is.  Yeah, cant do that.  I can barely schedule my daily routine as it is.... it's a good thing I dont work, because I *would* manage to be late every single day.



Still, I can understand the appeal of an overall giant tourney for anyone that is into the game in question and enjoys spectating alot.  Tends to be quite alot to be had at such events.

I've forgotten whatever else I was going to say, which works out well enough I suppose.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2014, 09:00:37 am by Misery »

Offline Wingflier

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Offline Misery

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #545 on: June 15, 2014, 06:03:14 am »
The sad thing is, as braindead as that idiot is for doing that, the moba communities in general likely contain plenty that are even dumber.   The sort that make a house plant look like a genius.


EDIT:  Okay, it actually gets even stupider if you then read some of the comments people have made.  I really must stop doing that.  Pretty sure I lost some IQ points by reading those. 
« Last Edit: June 15, 2014, 06:47:18 am by Misery »

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #546 on: June 15, 2014, 07:07:22 am »
Concerning what you said about DotA earlier, I agree with you to some extent. Some of the mechanics are incredibly frustrating, unintuitive, and downright boring. In many ways it's like a chess game, in which all of the major pieces have a mind of their own.

In terms of the slowness of the laning phase, I think that's something which just improves with experience. Of course by experience, I mean hundreds or thousands of hours of play time. I've been playing for nearly 11 years now, and I'm just recently discovering new and awesome things that I've never done before.

For example, in many games, I'll opt to skip the laning phase completely. What do I mean? I mean I can literally roam around the map from level 1 as a certain hero (usually Vengeful Spirit when I do it) and simply gain almost all of my gold and experience from kills alone, while helping my allies immensely. Name another MOBA where this is possible.

Now do classical, boring lanes exist in DotA 2? Absolutely. That doesn't mean you have to use them. I basically refuse to play in that fashion anymore because I agree, it's boring. But that's the awesome thing about DotA, it allows you to innovate and try anything you want to. There *is* no set lane setup, it's not like League where all the roles/positions have to be the same 99% of the time. Tri-lane, dual lane, solo lane, roamer, jungle, even abandoning a lane altogether to push towers quickly, or any combination of the above. DotA to me is amazing because it belongs to the innovators. The people who try new things and change the game or throw their opponents off balance by presenting them with something they'd never expect, those are the true masters of the game.

I agree with you, classical laning is DotA is awful, so I stopped doing it. When playing with my friends we do funny or interesting combinations which either results in us killing them over and over or losing the game within 20 minutes. Either result is better than falling asleep at the keyboard. Sure, there is certainly a place for those who like to play in a traditional style, but also an option for those who like to try insane new things as well (like creep skipping, or in other words going behind an enemy's first outer tower and killing the creep waves before they hit the lane. Yes, this actually works).

Granted, being able to come up with interesting and innovative new strategies requires a certain level of experience and understanding of the game. To those who haven't played it very much, I'm sure it probably seems like an inferior "whatever MOBA you're coming from" that includes silly mechanics like denying, creep pulling, and losing gold on death, etc. However, stick with it long enough and you begin to have these epiphanies which completely change your perspective on what the game, or even what any MOBA, actually is. I can take my DotA skills to any other MOBA and apply them there, but I can't take what I've learned from other MOBAs and apply them to DotA, because quite frankly I haven't learned anything. They've only simplified the formula and made it more streamlined, they haven't added any nuance or complexity to the game.

Ultimately complexity is what enables innovation, this is why you'll never be able to innovate as much in Checkers as you will in Chess, and you'll never be able to innovate as much in Chess as you will in Starcraft, etc. etc. It doesn't work in reverse. You can't create a simpler Chess with more innovation. You can create a simpler Chess that appeals to more players, as simplicity often does, and while that may make it more 'fun', it also creates limitations.

Having said that, of all the MOBAs I've tried, I think Strife is the best alternative to DotA 2. Often people cite League as being better because it's simpler, more streamlined, more accessible to new players, more intuitive, and removes a lot of the silly mechanics which exist in DotA simply because they evolved to be there. Strife does all of that, even better. It's even simpler than LoL, more streamlined, more accessible to new players, more intuitive, and removes some of the silly mechanics that even League copied over. For example, in Strife, one never needs to return to town for anything. The laning phase is actually more exciting in Strife as well because, well A. No Flash. That in itself is a 10,000% improvement. However, the out-of-combat regen allows the mechanics to let players throw spells and attacks at each other willy nilly, engaging in skirmishes constantly which would typically force one side or the other to have to go back to town sooner or later, creating a noticeable lull in the action at some point. None of this is necessary in Strife. In addition, the ability to share last hit gold means that one player literally can devote all his attention to harassing with almost no drawback whatsoever.

In addition, it's more objective-based. It removes warding (which, in addition the shared last hit mechanics, effectively means supports have been removed from the game) and allows you to play and build your character however you like according to the situation, instead of falling into a cookie-cutter role which never changes from game to game. It's also more balanced and fair to the player because all the heroes are unlocked right from the start.

That's just my opinion though, but if we're choosing between *ultimate fun and accessibility* and *ultimate competitive value*, I don't see much middle-ground. I still haven't tried Dawngate, I need to. Some of the mechanics seemed interesting there as well, such as the "role picker" at the beginning of the game. But once again, I'd like to think that as the genre evolves, we'd be getting further away from these solidified, unchanging roles, not more reliant on them.



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Offline Misery

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #547 on: June 16, 2014, 12:32:55 am »
Hmm, some well-put stuff there.  In particular I agree about the damn Flash thing.  Badly thought out ability, that.  They may as well just build it directly into the UI as an "always there" thing.  I dont use it myself, I just utterly refuse to.  If teammates dont like that, well... tough.  As always for me I'll bloody well do as I want.


That all being said, I still typically dont consider Dota to usually be more nuanced or whatever than much of the genre.  This isnt really counting League.... the more I play and watch the other mobas, the more I see them taking Leagues often-simple ideas and going alot further with them.  Less of the cookie-cutter, more of the "million ways to do things".  I still like League, but yeah, it has that to some extent.  Soraka, for instance, a support I tend to use, will never be a nuker or whatever.... pure support and cannot really be anything else.   Wheras something like Dawngate doesnt really have that.... Zeri, my favorite one so far, who is classified as a support, can be built in a great many ways.   I generally use her as support, mostly because as always so many players just dont want to do that sort of role, so I do it myself (sigh), but I can also build her as a tank, or a nuker/ganker, if I want to.   And it can be done in a way that isnt really obtuse, which happens in some games;  even I, being still new to much of the genre, can spot just how to do this and will mess around with that idea from time to time.   ....of course, then I still get lane partners that fall to their own idiot mistakes, so inevitably I go back to support so I can rescue them from their own badly-thought-out charges and such.   But still, the game is like that.  "Break the Meta" is their going idea for the game, and they're doing a pretty good job of it so far.

Though, if you DO try that, keep in mind that it's still in beta (and likely will be for awhile yet) so there's still alot for the devs to do, including much balancing.  Expect some things to be quite lopsided or just outright messed up.  They even pulled a Smite once where they changed the entire map around because too many constant "trends" were appearing.  So yeah, expect that sort of thing.


Oh, and I dont think I explained the roles thing very well.  There are, actually, only four of them.  They're not meant to lock people into very specific, ACTUAL roles like nuker, ganker, carry, whatever.  What they do is alter things to cater towards overall style.  I use the Tactician role most of the time, which allows me to not have to worry about last hits, but instead I can gain gold by constantly pestering and poking at my lane opponents (and this of course also counts during team fights and such).  Great for a support, but has plenty of other uses.  Even playing it as a carry.... there's a "role" that works well for carries, increasing the gold per last hit, and a couple of other effects, but a carry could use Tactician as well.... allowing them to play a very offensive style, often sacrificing last hits for chances to knock some health off of opponents without really losing gold, in addition to keeping gold gain during team fights.   These things aint perfectly balanced yet.... the jungler-ish one is waaaaayyyyyyy too static and is bloody useless outside of jungling, but that's the general idea.  They dont want people to be wedged into specific spots all the time simply based on unchanging characters.  Which seems to be something Strife is going for as well, which I like.


....I've totally forgotten where I was going with this.  It'll come to me eventually.

Offline Misery

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #548 on: July 01, 2014, 04:03:08 am »
.....when in the heck did Dota get an unranked mode???

Damn quirky as the mechanics can be, the lack of unranked was probably the core reason I stopped, since I tend to haaaaaaaaate playing ranked in pretty much any game before I feel I'm ready (which typically takes awhile).   So far in other mobas and other types of online games, I also find that there's alot less screaming in unranked modes since there's no rank to screw up.

As it is, I only just now heard about this.

This being the case I might give it another go.


....as soon as my arm stops feeling like someone jumped up and down on it, anyway.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #549 on: July 07, 2014, 02:26:21 am »
Quote
.....when in the heck did Dota get an unranked mode???
You may be confused. DotA always *had* unranked mode.

They added ranked mode later, but for the longest time, it was impossible for anyone to check your stats, or for you to know your "MMR" or anything like that. Though I guess with the addition of the "official" ranked mode, many of the tryhards have begun to avoid unranked.

If you play again, I suggest you totally throw out your typical MOBA "training" and start doing some crazy unorthodox things until you learn what makes the game *fun* for you.

For example, pick a roaming hero such as Vengeful Spirit, Mirana, Venomancer (and many others) and don't lane at all...Simply roam around the map from level 1 looking to set up a kill for first blood. Go the lane where the enemies are easiest to kill and simply shut down your opponents so hard that you win the game from the beginning.

Pick a megapushing hero such as Leshrac, Rhasta or Death Prophet and just ignore the game and push towers down like absolute mad giving your team so much gold that you win by proxy.

Find a friend and develop "gay lanes", aka wombo combo lanes, aka "death lanes" that allow you to kill your opponents over and over again until they just leave the lane (or the game) and never come back. Lina + Sven, Crystal Maiden + Juggernaught, Dazzle + Slardar, Mirana + Shadow Demon, Bristleback + Venomancer, the list goes on and on and on. Be creative. It's usually helpful to have one ranged and one melee because it translates well into the rest of the game.

Pick a jungler such as Ursa, Lycan, or Furion and learn how to do Rosh at like 10 minutes into the game. This almost guarantees victory against an inexperienced team because it gives your whole team the gold of a tower, gives you ~2 levels of experience instantly, and resurrection. Usually people aren't checking for it either and you can't ward against it.

*USE SMOKE* For 100 gold you and your team gets complete and utter invisibility (can't even be detected with "true sight") for 45 seconds, plus 15% movespeed and you can still use your invisibility without breaking it all until you get within a short range of an enemy or tower. This is a game-changing item that most people don't even use, especially at lower levels. It's like a guaranteed kill against inexperienced players for 100 gold. Totally worth it.

In other words, get outside your comfort zone, WAYYYYYY outside your comfort zone. Force yourself to play in atypical ways until you find something that works for you that isn't sitting in a lane and last hitting. Once you realize how much diversity and potential for dynamic playstyles the game offers, you might start to appreciate it.

By the way, The International now has its own website and will be including 6 streams (which I think is absolutely awesome) during the tournament: http://www.dota2.com/international/overview/

4 for simultaneous games all happening at once.

1 for recaps of the most awesome moments of the games all happening at once and a synopsis of how the tournament is going so far.

Finally, 1 for new players, a newbie stream which explains basic mechanics in plain English for those who are unfamiliar with the game!
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Offline Misery

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #550 on: July 07, 2014, 10:07:45 pm »
The unranked thing, my problem was that there was just one mode... no differentiation between the two.  With them split, indeed the tryhard types will hopefully tend to flock towards the "ranked" one, as they do in League and other games.  That's generally how I deal with League's legendarily terrible community, is that I stick to unranked.... people there are muuuuuuuuch less angry, and will often go there just to have fun, or to experiment, since it's not screwing up anyone's ranking.

With that split now.... my core problem with the game has been removed.


As for trying out stuff in Dota here.... yeah, my whole issue with that one was that players tend to flip the hell out if I tried something out that wasnt the "proper" way to play it.  Might be less with the mode split, but still, that was always the reason for it. 

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #551 on: July 08, 2014, 12:13:12 am »
Yeah, nowadays if someone gives you flak for trying something new or unorthodox, you can now respond "relax it's unranked" which is typically the catch all stfu you try hard we're attempting to have fun. If the complaining continues the mute button is always available.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #552 on: July 16, 2014, 03:51:26 am »
So, jumped into one of these today finally, after a long delay due to pain during winter/spring.... therapy has been helping alot with that.  I'm not even achy yet, for once, but still only did one game for the night so as not to push it.

I figure I'll probably alternate between LoL and Dota, playing Dawngate or Strife when I'm feeling patient enough to deal with the late-night queues on them (argh, closed betas and their long wait times...).

Today was League (I flipped a coin to decide, hah) and of course VERY FIRST MATCH in awhile and BAM, instant rager.  This despite the unholy stomping that the other team was being hit by (end score was 68 to 9.... I dont even know, I really dont.  I just heal and support). Yet still this guy was yelling at everyone on the team that wasnt me.  Which seems to often be the case, though I figure that's because it's not very bright to yell at the supports, them being the ones that keep you from being dead.   Still, holy heck this guy was angry. I wasnt expecting to have to report anyone THAT fast.

Tomorrow I'll go at Dota, and we'll see if I get wacky ragers in there!  At least they're sometimes good for comedic value, if nothing else.   They're always rather distracting, though.   

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #553 on: July 16, 2014, 03:48:18 pm »
Let me know how it goes. Add me on Steam (Wingflier) even and I'll play one with you.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #554 on: September 16, 2014, 10:33:32 am »
I generally enjoy DotA more than LoL because of its competitive nature, but after being stuck on 1 map for 10+ years, I have to hand it to Riot for constantly coming up with new ideas and trying new things.

This Ascension mode looks absolutely bad a**. 
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