Author Topic: Moba balance comparison, please comment  (Read 115321 times)

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #465 on: February 27, 2014, 04:12:58 PM »
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It may be difficult for you to understand or believe, but I don't actually have a negative self-image.  I think I'm seriously flawed in some important respects, but I don't think that makes me a net loss (much less a total loss), if I'm careful to play to my strengths.
In the same way, we can't use the tiny experience we have with the average MOBA player to automatically determine that their behavior makes them a "net loss". We have no idea about the strengths or compassion they may display in other areas of their life.

It's certainly not enough evidence to call them "toxic, barely sociable spoiled brats" or what have you. This kind of attitude simply makes the behavior worse.

I tend not to believe in "bad people". I think that every person sometimes does bad things, but the whole idea of classifying each person as "good" or "bad" seems hilariously childish and simplistic to me. Human beings are a complex amalgamation of experiences, genes, and thought patterns. To try to classify such a diverse set of factors into a tiny category like that only shows a person's inability to grasp basic human psychology.

Further evidence that there is no such thing as a "bad person" is the fact that each person tries to view themselves as good in their own minds. If people really were bad, why do they care so much about keeping a positive self-image? Even Hitler believed he was justified in his actions. I just read a book called "Hitler's World View" by Eberhard Jackel. Hitler seemed to truly believe he had a divine right to act and command the way he did: "Therefore, I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator: By warding of the Jews, I am fighting for the Lord's work." "If Germany frees itself from this embrace [the Jews], this greatest of all dangers to the peoples can be regarded as crushed for the entire world."

Is there some dishonesty and self-deception in this kind of mindset? Certainly. But if self-deception makes you a bad person, then most religious people must automatically be considered bad people. Even if you're religious, you have to concede this, because you believe *your* religion is right, and all the other ones are wrong. So no matter where you're coming from, a large group of people are deceiving themselves about some obvious truth.

I of course don't conclude that people who self-deceive are automatically bad people either. I think a lot of these people playing these (and any competitive) game have anger issues, and they legitimately believe they have a right to act the way they do. It's not necessarily because they want to harm others, maybe it's because they've been mentally or emotionally abused in their life, and they feel that by standing idle while that happens again, they are simply inviting more of it.

I'll use a personal example of why I sometimes blow up in these games. I was brought up in a strict religious environment in where I was taught my own feelings were invalid and had to be suppressed. It was "wrong and sinful" to feel angry, upset, or otherwise vengeful towards others, and Biblical references were used to justify these decrees. Well as you can imagine, suppressing my emotions did little to fix them. In fact, it left me with a lot of guilt, anxiety, and of course anger which I simply pushed down for most of my teenage life because of the way I was taught to believe, bringing me to the point of near suicide many times.

When I finally discarded of these damaging beliefs, I had an irrational but completely understandable fear of EVER suppressing my emotions. So now, when I feel angry, upset, or scared, instead of bottling that up inside, I have a hard time not letting it out immediately because of the deep terrifying knowledge of what happens when I bottle them up instead.

Of course the trick is to find a happy medium, and I'm working on that. I still sometimes have "outbursts", but that doesn't make me a bad person, that just means I'm trying to find a happy medium without completely suppressing my emotions the way I did before just for the sake of others, bringing me to the point of near suicide.

I think most people with anger problems likely have a similar story or sordid past, and so attempting to be sympathetic or understanding about where they're coming from instead of automatically labeling them as nasty or vile people, which I continue to see happening in this thread, is probably a better solution.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #466 on: February 27, 2014, 05:07:15 PM »
In the same way, we can't use the tiny experience we have with the average MOBA player to automatically determine that their behavior makes them a "net loss".
Yes, that's the exact point I was aiming at.

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I tend not to believe in "bad people". I think that every person sometimes does bad things, but the whole idea of classifying each person as "good" or "bad" seems hilariously childish and simplistic to me.
Certainly there's no cosmic meterstick hanging on some sky-hook out there to measure people.  It's not like you're racking up points and penalties in some impersonal disembodied high score list.

It's more a matter of your relationship to others.  Each person (that knows you at all) will have some opinion of what they like and don't like about you.  There's not really a scalar assignment of value there either, but there is usually a general sense of whether the "things I like" outweigh the "things I don't like".  Those perceptions, and the valuations attached to them, and how those valuations are acted upon, will vary widely from person to person.

Nonetheless, there are behaviors and attitudes which weigh in with a very high negative magnitude among a great majority of people (often including the people with those very traits).

So an adult who responds to "not getting my way" stimuli with "kick-scream-throw-things" doesn't need to feel some kind of cosmic guilt for offending the universe.  The universe doesn't care.  But that doesn't mean there isn't a very real, very serious problem.


As for the suppressing of emotions (quite common among many religions/worldviews), yea, that can lead to tremendous amounts of bitterness.  "Just bottle it up" is over-simplistic and destructive.

On the other hand, "just let it out" can also be over-simplistic and destructive.  It can change from "hold it in, make yourself sick" to "let it all out, make everyone else sick too".

Genuinely dealing with the offense or feeling of guilt or whatever, so that it stops poisoning anyone... that's the hard part.  But it's the only way to live, as opposed to slowly dying.  The more I live and see, the more I think most people take the slowly-dying approach.  Ultimately, the poison is found preferable to change.

Which, perhaps ironically, brings to mind Planescape Torment: what can change the nature of a man?
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #467 on: February 27, 2014, 08:01:28 PM »
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Genuinely dealing with the offense or feeling of guilt or whatever, so that it stops poisoning anyone... that's the hard part.  But it's the only way to live, as opposed to slowly dying.
Well sure, but it doesn't happen overnight :P

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Offline Misery

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #468 on: February 27, 2014, 08:07:12 PM »
I think most people with anger problems likely have a similar story or sordid past, and so attempting to be sympathetic or understanding about where they're coming from instead of automatically labeling them as nasty or vile people, which I continue to see happening in this thread, is probably a better solution.

If it helps, I think in most cases players of this genre dont really point towards any one specific individual with that sort of thing..... it's moreso that the community, as a whole, is nasty and vile overall.  Which is something I can agree with.  One way or another, it IS filled with jerks, there WILL be people who insult you just because they get a kick outta it, and so on.


Also I love the part where this topic got back on the rails for like 2 minutes, and then immediately leapt into a chasm again.

Offline Cyborg

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #469 on: February 27, 2014, 10:12:40 PM »
It's certainly not enough evidence to call them "toxic, barely sociable spoiled brats" or what have you. This kind of attitude simply makes the behavior worse.


Yes, my lack of rage totally makes the behavior worse. Blame the victim, much? You see, I can do psychology 101 grab bag, also.  ;D

I tend not to believe in "bad people". I think that every person sometimes does bad things, but the whole idea of classifying each person as "good" or "bad" seems hilariously childish and simplistic to me.
Further evidence that there is no such thing as a "bad person" is the fact that each person tries to view themselves as good in their own minds. If people really were bad, why do they care so much about keeping a positive self-image? Even Hitler believed he was justified in his actions.
 I just read a book called "Hitler's World View" by Eberhard Jackel. Hitler seemed to truly believe he had a divine right to act and command the way he did: "Therefore, I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator: By warding of the Jews, I am fighting for the Lord's work." "If Germany frees itself from this embrace [the Jews], this greatest of all dangers to the peoples can be regarded as crushed for the entire world."

Now that's just asinine and offensive. Godwin's law, you lose. I hate to even dignify this part of what you wrote because millions of murdered people do not need to be used as justification for your arguments, but I actually read Mein Kampf (not just someone else's opinion on it, like what you read), and religious justification for his behavior is not prevalent at all. The very mention of it smells more like pontification and making things sound good, because he's not using scripture to make his point. Hell, the Old Testament is Jewish! This is more akin to punctuating one's remarks, not making a divine argument. If you read the book which you are reading a review of, you will find out where Hitler gets the idea about murdering Jews. Hint, it starts with a propaganda pamphlet on his way through the streets.

And even if there was a self-professed divine argument, your point about "he meant well, in his own mind" is bogus. You would have to throw out every adjective in the dictionary, because it's all relative including good and evil, which is just stupid. This is the kind of philosophy you get from a bunch of chuckleheads smoking up on a road trip. We have comparisons, we have data points, we can most assuredly say that genocide does make one an evil, bad person. If you want to get nihilist and reference the void because it's all relative in an empty, cold universe, it just doesn't hold water next to the data points that we have to make relative opinions. Nihilism works in your freshman year of high school, but after that, it really loses it's shine.


But if self-deception makes you a bad person, then most religious people must automatically be considered bad people. Even if you're religious, you have to concede this, because you believe *your* religion is right, and all the other ones are wrong. So no matter where you're coming from, a large group of people are deceiving themselves about some obvious truth.


You're jumping around from topic to topic, setting up strawmen and knocking them down, and pulling from your philosophy grab bag. Yes, we are all aware that we have millions of people experiencing disparate spiritual adventures and mass hallucinations. What of it?


It's not necessarily because they want to harm others, maybe it's because they've been mentally or emotionally abused in their life, and they feel that by standing idle while that happens again, they are simply inviting more of it.


Who cares about the origin? I don't. We all experience life. Life is hard. Yes it hurts, yes it shapes you, and it can certainly push people in directions they might not otherwise have gone. But that doesn't preclude conclusions about their personality. Someone can be a raging jerk and have a horrible childhood as an excuse.

I'll use a personal example of why I sometimes blow up in these games. I was brought up in a strict religious environment in where I was taught my own feelings were invalid and had to be suppressed. It was "wrong and sinful" to feel angry, upset, or otherwise vengeful towards others, and Biblical references were used to justify these decrees. Well as you can imagine, suppressing my emotions did little to fix them. In fact, it left me with a lot of guilt, anxiety, and of course anger which I simply pushed down for most of my teenage life because of the way I was taught to believe, bringing me to the point of near suicide many times.


See previous point.

When I finally discarded of these damaging beliefs, I had an irrational but completely understandable fear of EVER suppressing my emotions. So now, when I feel angry, upset, or scared, instead of bottling that up inside, I have a hard time not letting it out immediately because of the deep terrifying knowledge of what happens when I bottle them up instead.


See previous point.

I think most people with anger problems likely have a similar story or sordid past, and so attempting to be sympathetic or understanding about where they're coming from instead of automatically labeling them as nasty or vile people, which I continue to see happening in this thread, is probably a better solution.


Yes, everyone around you should be understanding and bend to whatever is wrong with you and your self-declared childhood issues, because that works for you.


Granted, self-entitlement is gratifying, but what about everyone around you? Aren't they entitled to their own claims of how they want to be treated? What if their childhood requires that you put your outbursts aside for their benefit? I don't think online multiplayer MOBA games are meant to be therapy for childhood issues, although it's certainly a theory that this is what is happening.


I just can't excuse the behavior, chalk it up to the void, couch it on good intentions, and say it's all relative anyways, so who cares? I care. I want to play a team game without being abused.


If it helps, I think in most cases players of this genre dont really point towards any one specific individual with that sort of thing..... it's moreso that the community, as a whole, is nasty and vile overall.  Which is something I can agree with.  One way or another, it IS filled with jerks, there WILL be people who insult you just because they get a kick outta it, and so on.


Yes.



So an adult who responds to "not getting my way" stimuli with "kick-scream-throw-things" doesn't need to feel some kind of cosmic guilt for offending the universe.  The universe doesn't care.  But that doesn't mean there isn't a very real, very serious problem.


As for the suppressing of emotions (quite common among many religions/worldviews), yea, that can lead to tremendous amounts of bitterness.  "Just bottle it up" is over-simplistic and destructive.

On the other hand, "just let it out" can also be over-simplistic and destructive.  It can change from "hold it in, make yourself sick" to "let it all out, make everyone else sick too".


Exactly. Don't use the universe as an excuse. Take responsibility and try to recognize that others are entitled to a certain standard, just as anyone else. That means everybody has to tone it down if we're going to play on the same team for the sake of the group.


If you are alone, like in Misery's case, the tantrum is the same as whether or not a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound? Sure, but it's overall meaningless to the absent observer. If those trees start to topple over around a present observer, better get out of the way. Which brings us full circle.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #470 on: February 27, 2014, 11:20:25 PM »
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Yes, my lack of rage totally makes the behavior worse. Blame the victim, much? You see, I can do psychology 101 grab bag, also.  ;D
Don't really need to respond to the rest of your argument, because you disprove all of it with this right here.

You're the victim? That's laughable. You've said more cruel and heartless things about 10 million+ people that you barely know than I've ever been personally attacked with in a DotA game.

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Firstly, let's all acknowledge that the moba community is full of toxic, spoiled brats that are only marginally capable of acceptable socialization
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This genre attracts narcissist gamers who really need an audience (the other nine people playing) for their own perceived awesomeness. Legends in their own minds. How many people play this game because they want to have nice social gaming session with other people? "Let's go meet the nice people on dota!" Of course not. It's more like, let's dominate and show off for nine other people.
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These same internet miscreants also firmly believe they are experts at understanding meta...
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I enjoy playing these games now and then, but I despise the average personality who plays them.

So again, you're doing EXACTLY what these MOBA players are doing in spreading your hatred and vitriol to a large group of people, because you feel rationally justified in doing so. Your hatred is not rational, your nasty comments are not rational, but you feel they are rational.

You are the literal epitome of proving my point Cyborg, and you prove it so sweetly because you can't even see how perfectly you're doing it.

The only difference is, I'm not going to sit here and badmouth you and call you a bad person like you do to others for your own behavior, because I know that doing this only makes the behavior worse. I'm just pointing out your blatant hypocrisy.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #471 on: February 27, 2014, 11:41:03 PM »
Also I love the part where this topic got back on the rails for like 2 minutes, and then immediately leapt into a chasm again.
While I'm the first to drive trains off the rails with mad-scientist-glee, I think we're actually hitting one of the most important MOBA-related topics.  Do we want to improve the MOBA experience?  What really gets in the way of the fun more?  Old-style last-hitting mechanics or jerks-for-teammates?  Both are valid areas for improvement, but the latter is a far more fundamental, difficult problem.  So difficult, I think, that it's largely ignored or papered over in favor of tech/balance/etc issues that seem actually solvable.

And I think that point is shown again here: Wingflier, Cyborg, do you have any intentions to find some form of reconciliation or mutual understanding that will allow you to treat each other with decency?

Hard-hitting argument is fine, but is that what's actually happening here?

And if the two of you, who I know from some experience to be considerably more analytical than the average MOBA player, can't meet halfway, how much less random strangers in a proverbial snakepit?
« Last Edit: February 27, 2014, 11:44:14 PM by keith.lamothe »
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #472 on: February 28, 2014, 07:41:07 AM »
I have no problem with Cyborg, it just seems that he's constantly contradicting himself and attacking large groups of people (as well as other forum members) in attempt to display himself as the self-proclaimed victim.

Obviously I'm going to disagree with these tactics in the spirit of fair debate.

In other words, I have no desire to attack Cyborg personally, but his arguments, which seem completely self-defeating. He is engaging in the same behavior he claims to detest in the MOBA Community.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2014, 07:43:15 AM by Wingflier »
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #473 on: February 28, 2014, 07:37:29 PM »
This seemed remarkably appropriate.

If it were properly animated I think I would get a kick out of a permanently-smiling sunflower trying to heap on verbal abuse.

Maybe the alternative to the hard problem of stopping such behavior is to harness it.  Preferably with old cartoon material.  If I could see Smurfette screaming at a Tryndamere about his K/D I might be laughing too hard to finish the match.
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Offline Cyborg

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #474 on: February 28, 2014, 08:34:29 PM »
And I think that point is shown again here: Wingflier, Cyborg, do you have any intentions to find some form of reconciliation or mutual understanding that will allow you to treat each other with decency?

Hard-hitting argument is fine, but is that what's actually happening here?

And if the two of you, who I know from some experience to be considerably more analytical than the average MOBA player, can't meet halfway, how much less random strangers in a proverbial snakepit?


Wing, he's not asking whether you like me or not. He's asking whether you plan to be decent. I'm obviously being asked the same thing.


Let me be clear. My calling the community the pile of dung that it is, is not unique. It's a common fact, acknowledged in this thread, lampooned by countless comics, and is so obvious that the makers have tried to find ways of getting people to behave, such as the tribunal. I'm not making this up, it's an industry-wide problem that everyone else is aware of except for you, apparently. Maybe it's because you are self-admittedly part of the problem? Your desperate need for everyone to acquiesce to whatever childhood problems you have conflicts with my need to have a pleasant 30 minute experience inside of this game.


So the question being asked is, how do we achieve that? How does a guy like me and someone like you coexist for 30 minutes in a game? I have some ideas.


* No chat.
* No k/d/a/c scoreboard.
* No killing blows recorded. Award gold according to how much of the enemy HP you destroyed.
* Reward objectives on the scoreboard.
* Award gold for multiple people attacking creep camps.
* Add a fifth ability that can only be used to help a teammate.


The no chat option I already accomplish. I don't like people who rage. I am bigoted against bigots. I'm intolerant of intolerance. I thought I have managed quite well to avoid name-calling and just address the points. I have been fair, or so I thought. While it's no secret that wing and I won't be sending each other Christmas cards, it's a far cry from MOBA chat.


Two other random thoughts I had. There are other games that seem to attract issues. Does anyone remember "Barrens" world chat from World of Warcraft? They had websites devoted to that kind of behavior. My second random thought, if you play against bots, there is literally zero arguing. I have had zero bad experiences playing against the AI (free win of the day points). The people who play that have entirely different motivations, and everything that causes fighting is just not there.
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Offline Misery

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #475 on: March 01, 2014, 02:54:51 AM »
Let me be clear. My calling the community the pile of dung that it is, is not unique. It's a common fact, acknowledged in this thread, lampooned by countless comics, and is so obvious that the makers have tried to find ways of getting people to behave, such as the tribunal. I'm not making this up, it's an industry-wide problem

Aye, this.  I dont think this bit can possibly be overstated, particularly with this genre;  it's THAT bad.  No, actually, it's worse.  The genre has become downright legendary for toxic idiots behaving like absolute asshats, to the point where all the screaming on swearing that Xbox Live is known for is all happy flowers and cute forest critters by comparison.  I know MANY people at this point who have stated that, sure, they'd like to try one of these, because the genre looks very fun, but they absolutely will not touch it because of the toxicity. 



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* No chat.

This always is a desired idea, as far as I'm concerned.  Hearthstone does this, and it's very easy to see exactly why.  As a result, I'm alot less easily stressed out or jittery when playing that, because whoever I'm playing it with CANT do any of the toxic crap.  Solstice Arena does this one as well.

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My second random thought, if you play against bots, there is literally zero arguing. I have had zero bad experiences playing against the AI (free win of the day points). The people who play that have entirely different motivations, and everything that causes fighting is just not there.

Aye, this is a good point too.  A certain friend of mine is really into Dota 2.... absolutely freaking loves it.  He'd probably like other mobas alot too, if he gets more free time to try them out.  But he doesnt like dealing with the online idiocy, and so ends up doing alot of solo bot matches.

Which I can totally understand, though my own problem with it is very simple:  The bots are dumber than a sack of hammers.  I have not yet played a moba where this is not true.  There's just too much absolute stupid on the part of the AI for it to even be worth much as simple practice.  Otherwise I'd probably use this mode for that very thing in Dota, but.... ugh.  The bots drive me up the wall.  The bots on BOTH teams, that is.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #476 on: March 01, 2014, 09:31:57 AM »
I have no problem with Cyborg, it just seems that he's constantly contradicting himself and attacking large groups of people (as well as other forum members) in attempt to display himself as the self-proclaimed victim.

Obviously I'm going to disagree with these tactics in the spirit of fair debate.

In other words, I have no desire to attack Cyborg personally, but his arguments, which seem completely self-defeating. He is engaging in the same behavior he claims to detest in the MOBA Community.

Quote from: Cyborg
I thought I have managed quite well to avoid name-calling and just address the points. I have been fair, or so I thought. While it's no secret that wing and I won't be sending each other Christmas cards, it's a far cry from MOBA chat.

You each think you've behaved decently towards each other.  But do either of you think the other has behaved decently toward you?  Is there a disconnect there, and why?

I wouldn't have brought it up were it not for the multiple complaints I've seen from other forum members about the way you two speak to each other here.  Not about either individually, just the combination.

It's entirely possible some/all of those complaints could be more from the sensitivity of the person complaining, or some form of misunderstanding. 

I'm highly sensitive to rancor myself (I tend to leave the room if people get into a tense argument in my presence), but when I look at your posts to each other and compare that to other times I've seen such (online or in person) the only examples I can recall are when the speakers viewed each other with deep contempt.

And yes, it's a faaaaar cry from MOBA chat.  It's not even on the radar by that standard.  Not to harp excessively on that one comment, but I've seen it come up multiple times in discussions somehwat similar to this one, so:  surely we can't use that standard as any meaningful measurement of decency, wherever on that scale something might fall.  It's kind of like saying "this three-days-in-the-dumpster roast chicken is nowhere near as bad for you as eating plutonium" :)

Anyway, it's not my intent to long-term derail on an analysis of the motives behind the posts in this thread, but it is useful to think about how (to paraphrase Cyborg) to allow 30 minutes of coexistence between two incompatible people so they can pursue a shared goal.

Basically put them in hermetically sealed boxes (relative to one another) and remove distractions from playing the game :)
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 09:33:44 AM by keith.lamothe »
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #477 on: March 01, 2014, 09:50:39 AM »
I agree with you that the "debate" between us has become a problem. I'm sorry it has escalated to this phase, and I take personal responsibility for that.

Hypocrisy is very frustrating to me, and the level of it that Cyborg has shown here is absolutely astounding. The latest insult to the entire MOBA Community is that they are a "pile of dung", and saying this seems to be justified because "lots of people agree" is extremely amusing to me, especially when Cyborg continues to point our logical fallacies throughout the thread.

Once again, people have anger problems and they take it out on others sometimes. High-stress or competitive situations increase the likelihood of that. This discussion is a perfect example of that. The problem is not that people sometimes hurt each other or take their problems out on others (this is human), the problem is when people feel RATIONALLY JUSTIFIED in doing so, and refuse to apologize because they claim some kind of moral right to say nasty things about other people. I know I'm not going to change his mind, I've decided to exit the discussion with him. I'll continue posting in the thread, just on different topics.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #478 on: March 01, 2014, 10:05:40 AM »
The problem is not that people sometimes hurt each other or take their problems out on others (this is human), the problem is when people feel RATIONALLY JUSTIFIED in doing so, and refuse to apologize because they claim some kind of moral right to say nasty things about other people.
Well, which of the two is worse:

1) Someone who spends 15 minutes bombarding a Dota2 teammate with epithets and slurs because they had the dire temerity to play counter-meta.

2) Someone who looks at the speaker in example #1, concludes that this behavior is on a level with "humanoid vermin", and expresses that judgment verbally.

?

Both consider themselves justified.

I think 2 is still a problematic thing for someone to do.  It may be fair from a "strict justice" standpoint, but I don't think the human race can survive if we all take that approach.

But it's certainly much closer to an unclouded view of reality than demonstrated by the speaker in the first example.
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #479 on: March 01, 2014, 11:00:37 AM »
I agree insofar as calling the MOBA community a pile of dung. There is A LOT of verbal abuse inthose communities, even in Smite, in spite of it generally being lighter and more friendly than other MOBAs. However, going so far as to call these people bad IRL is stretching it. Most of them are just young. That being said, there's never an excuse for behaving like an utter douchebag. There are however explanations. Then of course there are the cases of people that are just straight up mean. But putting that label on everyone? Nope, that's stretching it, and it's incredibly insulting to people like me, who have never, to my knowledge, abused anyone in game ever.
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