Author Topic: Moba balance comparison, please comment  (Read 148277 times)

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #210 on: July 02, 2013, 03:04:32 PM »
Just Awesome.
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Offline RCIX

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #211 on: July 06, 2013, 08:16:14 AM »
DotA 2 has officially added smartcasting, for those who couldn't live without it.

Oh hey, welcome to 2009.

Sorry, couldn't resist =p I look forward to seeing any ground they gain in the UI department from the change-phobic fanbase.

In general, I stopped caring about Dota vs League when i realized, hey, League has maps and modes and Dota doesn't. When Dota comes out with a Dominion mode, ill be interested. Till then...
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #212 on: July 16, 2013, 03:40:06 PM »
DotA 2 has officially added smartcasting, for those who couldn't live without it.

Oh hey, welcome to 2009.
Well, Riot can welcome to 2013 when they add the ability to resell items for full price that you buy accidentally, or when they add different announcers to the game, or when they add custom HUD skins that you can share with anyone on your team, or when they add the ability to draw on the minimap to give your team specific travel routes, or the ability to pause the game when somebody inevitably disconnects or a personal emergency arises among 10 people in an often hour+ game. Or when they make a model which allows full access to the entire hero pool so that people with more money or FotM champions don't have a huge advantage. Heck, they can welcome to 2006 when they add VOIP to their game ;p

Sure, LoL has new maps and modes (well technically DotA has many modes: AR, AP, RD, CM, SD, LH, LP). However, DotA 2 adds new maps for big holiday events, like Diretide or Greevling. You've got to realize that DotA was in originally in development on the WC3 Engine, in which it wasn't possible to do things like add new maps to the existing one, without making an entirely new map with the map editor, along with all the same information used in the old one (perfected over about 10 years of work). Not to mention something like that would have probably split the community, which isn't something you want when your all-to-quaint platform was the unreliable WC3 custom games system. I'm sure DotA will have a permanent “new map” within a year or so, though it will probably just be for fun, and not generally taken seriously competitively the same as with the other LoL maps.

In terms of change-phobia, I think the DotA community is a lot better than LoL's tbh. Sure, they'll add new maps and such, but that doesn't really impact the core gameplay of the main map whatsoever. Adding new maps/modes to the game actually isn't necessarily a product of change at all, because using them is completely optional, it doesn't negatively affects the maps and modes already there. A significant change is, for example, altering some core aspect of the gameplay that has far-reaching implications on the way the game must be played. To my knowledge, LoL has been out for 3 years, and this has never happened; not like it has in DotA.

I'll give you a shining example: Flash. Everybody knows there is a problem with Flash. There has been a problem with Flash since basically day one. It's the most taken Summoner Spell by far. Every game, 90% or more players take it, and it would be silly not to. Even after countless nerfs, it is still in the game, and still the best Summoner Spell hands down. In DotA, there was a very similar crisis with an item called “Blink Dagger”. It basically gave the same ability as Flash, albeit it costed money, took up an inventory slot, and was on a lower cooldown. Over time, it became the most overpowered item in the game. It was basically bought on every single hero in competitive play, every single game (sound familiar?). It was the only truly uncounterable item that existed in the game. Ohhh suree, you had the same arguments you do now: “If Blink Dagger is overpowered, why not just buy your own Blink Dagger?” But pointing out the logical flaws in this line of thinking were quite easy. Even the pro players were complaining to IceFrog about how overpowered the item was, and eventually he changed the item completely. It had a new effect: If the hero takes damage, BD becomes unusable for 3 seconds. This immediately made it counterable. It was now much harder to use to escape, though it still kept most of its value as an initiation tool. There were some items in the game, such as Radiance, a huge, passive, aoe burning effect, which were great against it because any hero who owned a Radiance could disable enemy blinks in a large range. Some heroes like Zeus or Spectre could cancel initiations with their ability to damage an enemy mapwide, thus disabling Blink.

This suggestion has been brought up to the Riot team MANY times. Their excuse? “It's too COMPLICATED!” Yes, it is much too complicated to understand that when you take damage, a summoner spell because inactive for a few seconds. Man, they must really have a low opinion of their playerbase's intelligence.

So here's another good example: Turtling became too good in DotA, and the games just became boring farmfests because wards were so cheap and infinite, and the two teams could just put them everywhere and having huge advanced warning of incoming gank attempts. So what did IceFrog do? He took away vision of the blue (vision wards). He made it so that they were only used to counter invis, not give vision themselves. Still, it did not prevent the game from being a farm/turtle fest.

So then what did he do? He limited the observer wards (sight wards) to 4, with a 6 minute cooldown on each purchase. This made it so that map vision became much more limited, and the player/team had to be much more careful about when and where he placed his wards. This also meant counter-warding became even more practical than before.

But that didn't work either, the game was STILL too much of a farm-fest. So what did he do? He added an item called “Smoke”, which basically makes an entire team invisible for 60 seconds, and move 15% faster, until they come within a certain range of an enemy hero or tower. This bypasses regular ward vision completely and allows gank opportunities that simply weren't possible before. Can you imagine if an item like this were added to LoL? How drastically would it change the game?

There are countless examples of huge changes like this to the core DotA gameplay. Even certain heroes like Wisp who can teleport with an allied champion anywhere on the map (So the old TF ult, but better), Slark, who can continue to attack whole remaining invisible, or Omniknight, who makes an entire team invulnerable to physical damage for 7 seconds etc. are much more game-changing, in themselves, than any champion LoL has ever added, which typically just use recycled skillsets in different ways because they've run out of things to do, and are unwilling to try anything new.

Sure, LoL has had some (much-needed) item reworks, and a few new Summoner Spells here and there, but none of it has been anywhere closed to as game-changing as the DotA alterations. To my knowledge, no change Riot has implemented into the game has, for example, changed the most popular lane setup for the past 2 years, while in DotA, the lane metagame is much more diverse, and constantly changing.

So it's kind of ironic when I hear a LoL player calling DotA players “change-phobic”, when I would say, if anything, the opposite is true.
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #213 on: July 16, 2013, 04:17:17 PM »
tl;dr
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Offline Aklyon

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #214 on: July 16, 2013, 04:45:02 PM »
tl;dr
tldr: Dota 2 changes in far more significant ways than LoL, even though it takes its time adding things like smartcasting. LoL hardly ever changes anything too drastically, to the point where one skill remains the always-pick ever since day one.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #215 on: July 16, 2013, 04:59:50 PM »
tl;dr
tldr: Dota 2 changes in far more significant ways than LoL, even though it takes its time adding things like smartcasting. LoL hardly ever changes anything too drastically, to the point where one skill remains the always-pick ever since day one.
Tl;dr Chemical Art is butthurt and doesn't have any good arguments so he acts immature instead and insults his own reading and/or patience capabilities.
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #216 on: July 16, 2013, 05:09:00 PM »
tl;dr
tldr: Dota 2 changes in far more significant ways than LoL, even though it takes its time adding things like smartcasting. LoL hardly ever changes anything too drastically, to the point where one skill remains the always-pick ever since day one.

Thanks.
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #217 on: July 16, 2013, 05:19:26 PM »
tl;dr
tldr: Dota 2 changes in far more significant ways than LoL, even though it takes its time adding things like smartcasting. LoL hardly ever changes anything too drastically, to the point where one skill remains the always-pick ever since day one.
Tl;dr Chemical Art is butthurt and doesn't have any good arguments so he acts immature instead and insults his own reading and/or patience capabilities.

 ???
I used the term in the traditional sense, that the message was too wordy for me to read, and if someone would put the core message in a shorter method I would read it. If you feel the nesd to attack me directly because of some percieved flaw that is your issue, not mine.

When stated in a lot less words, the argument that dota is somehow behind the times when it has so many features that lol does not seems silly.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 05:24:19 PM by chemical_art »
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Offline Cyborg

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #218 on: July 16, 2013, 09:49:15 PM »
Nothing but tea and crumpets, here.
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Offline Wingflier

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Offline Aklyon

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #220 on: September 21, 2013, 11:20:43 PM »
Woo, lan support. That is a good feature for something related to tournaments.

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #221 on: September 22, 2013, 11:20:10 AM »
One can never go wrong with more LAN support.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #222 on: November 19, 2013, 10:38:10 PM »
DotA 2 gets in-game coaching, lane picker, item-crafting, and 2 new heroes.

In-game coaching is where you can add a 6th member (to your 5 member party) to watch the game from your team's perspective, provide constructive advice, and help the "student" learn the game. The coach has the ability privately speak to each student through voice chat, as well as ping the map and draw lines on the screen for the team.

Lane picker is amazing. It opens a minimap during the hero selection phase which each team member can click on, showing the other teammates which lane and hero they plan to take into the game. In this way, lane and role picking is much clearer and more understandable than before, and there's little distraction about where each person is going. This may not sound so amazing if you've never played DotA, but the lane possibilities are so diverse that increasing communication between teammates in a clear, visible way is extremely important.

Both the new heroes are really cool. The update is labeled "the 3 spirit update". While all 3 spirits (storm, fire, and earth) have major similarities between them (such as their reliance on magic damage, use of remnants, and fast/evasive playstyle), they all fill completely different roles. One is an agility carry and a mage killer, one is a intelligence mid and a ganker, and the last is a strength tank and a powerful initiator. Very cool.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2013, 10:46:33 PM by Wingflier »
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #223 on: November 20, 2013, 01:30:49 AM »
'agility carry' not exactly

xin isnt going to carry anything, not against a real carry. I've seen him more played as a early game ganker who can transition into spamming slight of fists in fight, like kunkka.. but isnt going to carry
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #224 on: November 20, 2013, 03:55:46 AM »
I'm not sure why you're bringing Xin into the discussion about Ember Spirit, considering that the agility attribute doesn't exist in League of Legends.

Maybe you weren't aware that there are heroes who are classified as "mid-game carries" in DotA. Shadow Fiend is a good example. Really, his carry potential doesn't even hold a candle to someone like Faceless Void, Spectre, or Gyrocopter lategame, but this doesn't mean that his physical damage during the time which he shines is ignorable. Priestess of the Moon also falls into this category as well. Even though she kind of pales in comparison to some of the dedicated, lategame hard carries, that isn't to say that she doesn't have carry potential during the mid and early late-game. These types of carries are typically referred to as "soft carries" or "semi-carries".

I would consider Ember Spirit a semi-carry on the level of someone such as Shadow Fiend or PotM. There is a certain moment in the game where he shines before he falls off and gives way to harder carries.
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