Author Topic: Moba balance comparison, please comment  (Read 117481 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #195 on: March 07, 2013, 09:45:04 AM »
ANd yes, the point of my post was to point out how silly your argument was. Just because everyone uses it doesnt mean its op and needs nerfing. For the most part, there are 4 summoner spells - Flash. Ignite. Exhaust. Smite. You see like ~18 combined of these every game. Does that make them op? No, it really doesnt.
Speaking from a designer's perspective, if I give you 2 slots in a given category and 10 choices of what to put in those two slots: if 6 of those choices are effectively never chosen by anyone in a large player population, then something is wrong.  The problem is not necessarily that the 4-often-chosen ones are OP, it may be that the other 6 are UP.  Or it could be a systematic psychological distortion among the player population (I think that's at least one factor in why flash is chosen so much).

At this point I wonder if they should try making flash consume both your summoner spell slots ;)  But I don't think that would really fix anything.  Though in some ways it's not a critical thing: effectively the game is "everyone gets 1 summoner spell, plus flash" and folks are still having fun.  It's more of a "there's room for improvement" thing to clean up those other spells that just don't get picked much at all.


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For comparison - Nearly every hero in dota builds power treads, arcane boots, or mana boots. You see about as many power treads as you do arcane and phase put together - Does that mean power treads are op? Or do I need to magically cross some other threshold (60%? 75%?)
If I give you one slot in a given category and 6 options to fill it with, and one is picked 50% of the time, then it probably indicates that there is room for improvement in the design.  But there'd be more info needed: are there statistically-significant cases where each option is preferable?  Not every choice needs to be popular, but every choice needs to have some niche at least.
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #196 on: March 07, 2013, 10:40:14 AM »
In LoL it is the rest of the Summoners are UP.  Although Teleport is really more a difficult solo Q summon because of the team work required.  It is plenty strong in tournaments.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #197 on: March 07, 2013, 11:11:04 AM »
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For the most part, there are 4 summoner spells - Flash. Ignite. Exhaust. Smite. You see like ~18 combined of these every game. Does that make them op? No, it really doesnt.
I think it's an indication of bad design, yes.  I don't see why they can't start nerfing the 4 most popular ones, or buffing the others, until they are all used.  There's literally no excuse.

By the way, I see Barrier, Ghost, Cleanse, and Teleport quite a bit as well.  I think that Heal, Clairvoyance, and especially Clarity could be buffed.  I think Flash could be removed from the game or put onto an item the way Promote was.

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For comparison - Nearly every hero in dota builds power treads, arcane boots, or mana boots. You see about as many power treads as you do arcane and phase put together - Does that mean power treads are op? Or do I need to magically cross some other threshold (60%? 75%?)
I think you meant to say phase boots and arcane boots?

Anyway, Tranquil Boots are typically only taken on carries anymore, the same way that Bezerker Greaves in LoL are usually only taken on carries.  Is anybody going to say that Bezerker's are UP because only carries take them?  I hope not.

According to this site, of the 4 boots, Treads are used about 50% of the time, and the other 4 boots compete for the rest.  I admit this is high BUT, you have to remember that Treads are the most versatile boot in the game.  Remember that Treads can be manually switched at any time, into 3 different stats.  So it might be intelligence for a caster or strength for an initiator etc.  The point is that even though it's the same item, it's value is very different for different types of heroes.  You could almost count the 3 different stat switches as 3 different items, which is why I'm not concerned that it's used so much.  http://dotabuff.com/items

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In LoL it is the rest of the Summoners are UP.  Although Teleport is really more a difficult solo Q summon because of the team work required.  It is plenty strong in tournaments.
I use Teleport a lot as a top lane in duo queue Ranked.  All you have to do is ask your teammates to put a ward in the back bush at bottom lane, and it's typically a free kill.  Also teleporting onto Dragon when they're trying to take it can completely turn the fight, or at least make them back off.  But yeah, I wouldn't use it in anything less than a ~1500 game and expect any sort of success I guess.
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #198 on: March 07, 2013, 05:36:30 PM »
The problem with taking teleport is that it means you arent taking a summonerspell that directly kills your opponent.

Taking exhaust or ignite can often be the difference in getting those early kills, which mean far too much in league.

And I honestly want flash to completely go away. Problem is that every bruiser nowadays, and half of the ad carries, have a gap closer, making flash required. I've experimented with taking ghost instead, but for the most part ghost cant replace flash unless I have a reliable escape.. And nothing really compares to am's blink.

If the game was 'choose one summonerspell and flash' instead of 'choose two between flash etc', would that really change anything? Well, it might reduce the dominance of exhaust junglers in the early game.. With things like teleport, it does largely require communication. People for some reason are not used to being able to actually react to a gank somewhere, but if I yell at people enough on voice they seem to react.

And yeah, power treads are indeed the common mans boots.. Just as flash is the common man's summonerspell.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #199 on: March 07, 2013, 06:50:00 PM »
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Taking exhaust or ignite can often be the difference in getting those early kills, which mean far too much in league.
I find just the opposite to be true.  Once the early game passes, Ignite's usefulness drops dramatically, outside of facing a few key champions such as Tryndamere, Swain, Volibear, Mundo, etc.  I would rather have Cleanse, on most Champions, which stays useful throughout the game, than Ignite, and get a couple more kills early on.  Not to mention that Cleanse counters Ignite, and has the same CD, making it even more superior in my opinion.

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Problem is that every bruiser nowadays, and half of the ad carries, have a gap closer, making flash required. I've experimented with taking ghost instead, but for the most part ghost cant replace flash unless I have a reliable escape.. And nothing really compares to am's blink.
It's actually just the opposite, I believe Flash helps people with a gap closer MORE than it helps those without.

Let me give you an example:  Everyone says Veigar is useless without Flash.  They say he would just die instantly without it.  Yet Flash is ALSO a great counter to Veigar.  Without Flash, even if Veigar misses his stun, as long as they are caught in the middle of the ring they have to stay there for the duration, or be stunned.  And even pseudo-blinks such as Grave's Dash or Jax's Leap will get stunned by hopping over the barrier.  Yet people with Flash can easily hop out of it.  Which means even if Veigar is PERFECT at landing his stuns, and always hits somebody, the people who he didn't hit, on the inside, can just Flash over and kill him, or Flash away.

Sure, Flash is also great for Veigar for getting away etc., but I think the buff to his stun would be tremendously more impactful than Flash's ability to help him escape every ~300 seconds.  Not to mention that if Flash were removed from the game, it would also increase his own survivability as well.

In terms of champions who have built in gap closers, there are typically already problems with these Champions anyway.  Elise, Khazix, and Jarvan, 3 Champions with screen-wide gap closers, are among the best Champions in the game, and all of them need nerfs IMO.  Ezrael, who was super powerful for a long time because of his powerful, built-in Flash, just got a pretty big nerf a few patches ago.  Plenty of Champions with crazy gap closers are already overpowered, and that's a separate issue, that the Summoner Spell Flash just mitigates.  If anything it would bring these problems into the light more clearly.

And before you go saying that pseudo-flashes are not what makes carries strong, listen to the opinion of one of the best ADCs in the world (some consider him the best ADC) who says that any ADC without a built-in escape (or massive range) is ABSOLUTE GARBAGE, and not worth playing in competitive play.  He also says that EZ's escape is what made him so good in the first place, because he has no clear weaknesses.  This is what I've been telling you all along.  Once again, this is a problem with the Champions themselves, not with Flash.  Though if anything, I think Champions like Varus and Draven would be much BETTER if Flash were removed, because you couldn't get away from them as easily.
http://www.gamespot.com/league-of-legends/videos/know-your-role-ad-carry-with-doublelift-lcs-week-3-6404372/

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And yeah, power treads are indeed the common mans boots.. Just as flash is the common man's summonerspell.
Finally, Treads are taken on about 50% of everybody, and have 3 different abilities which are all significantly different, and apply to different heroes, almost like making it 3 different items.  Flash is taken on 92% of everybody, and is used the vast majority of the time to escape a mistake of bad positioning.  These two aren't even comparable.  For one thing, Treads aren't bad for the game.  They actually have the SLOWEST MS of all the boots, meaning a player who takes them has to have superior positioning than someone who doesn't, where Flash rewards bad positioning.
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #200 on: March 07, 2013, 09:09:42 PM »
Flash is taken 50% of the time its offered :p
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #201 on: March 07, 2013, 10:31:35 PM »
Flash is taken 50% of the time its offered :p
I believe the contention is that it is taken significantly more often than that.

If you mean it only occupies 1 of the 2 slots for each player, then I'd say they'd probably put it in both slots if they could ;)
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #202 on: March 07, 2013, 11:59:48 PM »
If you mean it only occupies 1 of the 2 slots for each player, then I'd say they'd probably put it in both slots if they could ;)
Yep. That.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #203 on: June 05, 2013, 09:36:46 PM »
Nothing THIS EPIC will EVER happen in LoL.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #204 on: June 19, 2013, 01:57:28 PM »
DotA 2 has officially added smartcasting, for those who couldn't live without it.

Also, "announcer packs", which were added months ago (example), now have a cool new feature: If anybody on your team has an announcer pack, everybody on the team can use it! The same goes for "UI skins", which change the UI theme of your game. If anybody has one in the game, anyone can use it.

Another cool feature is that spectator mode now includes polls. This means anybody using the spectator client to view a game can vote in interactive polls, whose results will be shown to everybody watching (even people watching over streams). This is a fun way to see viewer favorites and opinions about who will win a series. In addition, referees of the game are able to show interesting pieces of information which appear on the screen as well, good for learning more about certain players, heroes, or items, during inactive times of the game.

Valve has created an ingenius in-game item called "The International Compendium". Not only does it give you access to unique in-game content, but also allows you to vote against others to predict match outcomes and stats. It also gives you the ability to win free items while watching TI games. Finally, a portion of every Compendium purchase increases the overall tournament prize pool for the teams! So far, the tournament prize pool has almost doubled!

The game will be officially released sometime this summer.
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Offline Aklyon

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #205 on: June 19, 2013, 02:02:13 PM »
So if its officially released soonish, what will happen to the infinity-1 amount of dota2 keys floating around?

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #206 on: June 19, 2013, 02:04:17 PM »
So if its officially released soonish, what will happen to the infinity-1 amount of dota2 keys floating around?
Probably something involving a massive sucking sound and a singularity swallowing lots of database servers.  Be prepared!  Don't be near any datacenters!
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Offline mrhanman

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #207 on: June 19, 2013, 02:13:15 PM »
Another cool feature is that spectator mode now includes polls. This means anybody using the spectator client to view a game can vote in interactive polls, whose results will be shown to everybody watching (even people watching over streams). This is a fun way to see viewer favorites and opinions about who will win a series. In addition, referees of the game are able to show interesting pieces of information which appear on the screen as well, good for learning more about certain players, heroes, or items, during inactive times of the game.

This is a pretty cool new feature.  I tried to get into this game a while back, but I got seriously put off by the attitudes veterans have towards n00bs.  I still like to pop in every now and then to watch a match and try to figure out what's going on.  This seems like a genre I'd enjoy, if I can ever learn it.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #208 on: June 19, 2013, 03:39:08 PM »
Another cool feature is that spectator mode now includes polls. This means anybody using the spectator client to view a game can vote in interactive polls, whose results will be shown to everybody watching (even people watching over streams). This is a fun way to see viewer favorites and opinions about who will win a series. In addition, referees of the game are able to show interesting pieces of information which appear on the screen as well, good for learning more about certain players, heroes, or items, during inactive times of the game.

This is a pretty cool new feature.  I tried to get into this game a while back, but I got seriously put off by the attitudes veterans have towards n00bs.  I still like to pop in every now and then to watch a match and try to figure out what's going on.  This seems like a genre I'd enjoy, if I can ever learn it.
I don't know when the last time you played was, but there are four options available now that may appeal to you:

-"Practice with bots" is a solo game in which the other 9 players are bots. You can choose the overall bot difficulty.
-"Find a co-op bot match" is similar to the last option, except all people on your team are human players. Generally people are a lot more forgiving in this mode.
-"Find a match solo" is a new feature which queues you only with and against other solo players. This is nice because individual players are typically much nicer than teams, who get pissed off when their "randoms" aren't as good as they are.
-"Least played mode" is a new matchmaking setting which forces people to pick heroes that they don't often play. It says: "This mode is great for learning new heroes since everyone will be on equal footing".

In addition, the bots have 5 different difficulty settings, so there should be something in there for everybody to enjoy.

They're also adding a new "mentor" mode soon, I'm not sure exactly how it will work. In HoN, the mentor played with the "student", but had a little "miniscreen" of his disciple's view, so he could instruct him while trying to help him. Overall it will probably be a neat feature once they finish it.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Moba balance comparison, please comment
« Reply #209 on: June 19, 2013, 04:20:45 PM »
Also, of note: http://blog.dota2.com/2013/05/communication-reports/

Very interesting way of dealing with verbally abusive people...remove their voice :D
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