Author Topic: Male / Female friendship - Possible without love interfering?  (Read 11364 times)

Offline Mánagarmr

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Male / Female friendship - Possible without love interfering?
« on: November 29, 2012, 03:40:01 pm »
Hi there!

Time for a little bit of psychological talk here. See, I'm in this situation where I have an absolutely awesome friend at work that I also see privately on occasion. We eat dinner, watch movies, play board games/card games or just sit around for hours talking when we should be sleeping. We also spend an obscene amount of time chatting.

Now, in any normal situation this would be a cool friend, right? Now, she's female, so everyone instantly assumes that we're in love, or will be or are secretely a couple. We're not.

Short backstory: Her life is a mess. There's simply no way she could ever function in a relationship right now due to her emotional scars and her life situation. Me, I'm recently (5-6 monts or so) coming from a relationship with a great girl, but for some reason or another it didn't work out, but it lasted almost 8 years at least.

Me and this workmate, we've known eachother for about 2,5 years and been actively seeing eachother (in the physical sense as in visiting on occasion) for at least half a year. The plan was to just be friends, because we click like clockwork together. We're different enough to have interesting things to debate, yet similar enough to be eerily "sibling-like" in many behaviours. We have great fun together.

So here comes the question:

Will this relationship stay on the friendzone level...or will it inevitable mature into something else? We've talked about it and we've both had times where we've felt more than "we really should" for the other so...what do you guys think? Is it even possible to remain "just friends" with a woman you like so much that in another life she could be your sister? The "bro-love" is strong between us, so to speak.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 03:43:20 pm by Moonshine Fox »
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Male / Female friendship - Possible without love interfering?
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2012, 03:52:27 pm »

Will this relationship stay on the friendzone level...or will it inevitable mature into something else? We've talked about it and we've both had times where we've felt more than "we really should" for the other so...what do you guys think?

That there for me is largest indicator that there  already is something for me. It's only a matter of whether / how you pursue it.

And, just as important, how you both react when one or the other gets into a relationship with a third person if you (plural) chose not to pursue it.
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Male / Female friendship - Possible without love interfering?
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2012, 03:55:40 pm »

Will this relationship stay on the friendzone level...or will it inevitable mature into something else? We've talked about it and we've both had times where we've felt more than "we really should" for the other so...what do you guys think?

That there for me is largest indicator that there  already is something for me. It's only a matter of whether / how you pursue it.

And, just as important, how you both react when one or the other gets into a relationship with a third person if you (plural) chose not to pursue it.
Well, there's of course "something there", that much is obvious. The thing is, we never planned for anything like it. Quite the contrary actually. She's already having a flirt with a guy out of town, and while I initially felt a rather harsch sting of jelousy, I'm fine with it now. Maybe because I know she's not interested in anything serious, and since he's so goddamn far away, it'll never be anything more than a short flirt for them. So maybe I'm just deceiving myself :P

There are parts of me that hope that we one day will get something serious between us, but isn't that just natural? The important part is what you do with your feelings and wether you "feed" them or not. Am I wrong?

The official word between is that we'll remain friends. Mostly because there's a very valid risk of us hurting eachother far more in a relationship that what it would bring us in terms of joy.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Male / Female friendship - Possible without love interfering?
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2012, 03:57:45 pm »
When discussing any two individuals... well, anything's possible.  So one can find anecdotal cases demonstrating basically any range of outcome in male-female relationships.

But in my opinion: in general with a guy and a girl where there's enough "raw material" for attraction, spending lots of time together over a long interval => emotional attachment => desire for more than friendship.  It can be one-sided.

There's always exceptions, but that's the general principle as far as I've been able to tell.  It's one of the big reasons that I (being married), don't try to have close friendships with women I'm not related to.


Anyway, in your case things are way beyond hypothetical and I don't think the friendzone is a stable one there.  What you do about that is a point I can't really speak to, depends on a lot of factors I know nothing about.
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Male / Female friendship - Possible without love interfering?
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2012, 05:02:04 pm »
I know I took a personal example, because that was frankly the only thing I could relate to. Perhaps I messed it up, but I meant in general. Not any specific case really.

Is it, in general, possible to stay friends?
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Male / Female friendship - Possible without love interfering?
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2012, 05:02:32 pm »
I'll try to respond to your post, Moonshine Fox, in a very long and thorough way.  Just a little background information, my chosen field of study is Psychology, so I'm devoting my entire career to helping people with the kinds of problems and "dilemmas" you're experiencing right now.  I would say that I'm already very good at it, as I have helped, or am in the process of helping, many of my friends through serious relationship issues, with solutions that they would have never expected to have been given.

The first thing you have to realize, before you can have any measure of success in a relationship in our society (in my opinion), is that our entire way of viewing love and relationships is completely wrong.  People think they know what love is, and they think they know what it means to be in a healthy relationship, but what you actually find when you look at the statistics is that most relationships in our culture fail miserably.  The lessons that we are taught about love and commitment are, in actuality, extremely off the mark, and so if you want to understand what makes for a good romantic relationship, or even a good friendship with the opposite sex, you kind of need to throw out everything you think you "know", and start over.

To answer the original question of the OP:  Yes, a male/female friendship relationship is possible.  However, the "without love interfering" is a non-sequitur.  You can't have a friendship without love; at least not a very deep one.  I wouldn't call any of my "friends" who I don't love friends, I would call them acquaintances, or the equivalent to Facebook friends.  They're fun to talk to and hang out with sometimes, but I don't have a deep connection with them (certainly not the one you're describing with this girl), and I wouldn't particularly be that upset if they disappeared from my life.

Going back to what I said just a couple paragraphs earlier, society will tell you that a healthy non-romantic relationship between a male and a female is impossible.  This is absolutely absurd, and I don't think any rational person could, or should believe it.

A bit of personal evidence:

1. I have a very close relationship with a previous girlfriend.  We were actually extremely close when we were together, we had sex and planned to spend our entire lives together.  It didn't work out for various reasons.  She actually stopped talking to me for several years after it ended, angry and bitter about the relationship; but I never stopped loving her, and I never stopped expressing my love to her.  Two years later, she came back, and now we are the best of friends.  We talk to each other all the time, and we are like a light in the darkness of each other's lives.  We realize that though we both did some hurtful things to each other when we were together, it was never our intention to hurt the other person, we were both just learning and discovering life together.  All hard feelings between us are gone, and now there is only love, peace and friendship.

So how did this happen?  It happened for the exact reason I said it did:  I never stopped loving her.  I never gave up on her.  I didn't really care whether she returned my love or not.

2. I have another close relationship with a previous girlfriend.  She is married and has a child with another man.  But we are still close.  We tell each other "I love you" all the time.  We talk about our past.  She talks about her life, and how much she loves her kid.  Sometimes she laments that we couldn't have been together instead (her husband is kind of an abusive ass).

Our society would tell you that you can't "love" a married woman, and that a married woman can't "love you". 

So how is this possible?  Love isn't based on conditions.  See the first example.  I love Kayla whether she's married or not.  What does that have to do with it?

3. I have countless other girls in a state of distance from me.  Yet, their inability or choice not to physically return my love does not hamper my ability to love them.  In fact, in some ways, it makes me love them more because I know they need love.  Just like my first 2 examples, they will one day return to me and we will have good relationships as well, even if we are not "together" romantically.

So yes, it's possible to have a relationship with a female, or male, or anybody, without being "romantically" involved in the classical sense.  It's not possible to be in a relationship with a male, or female, or anybody (in my opinion), without loving them.

If you want to know how this is possible, then you have to understand the meaning of love.  Our society defines love roughly as an agreement between two people.  Person A) chooses to love Person B), and Person B) chooses to love Person A).  It gets even weirder after that.  Now that two people have made a rough "agreement" to love each other (lol), they begin to quantify the value of their "love".

If Person A) is a man, and he works 60 hours a week, then that means he must love Person B), a woman, a lot.  Person B) is expected to, in return, meet that value with sexual favors, and/or by doing the housework, washing his clothes, making dinner, etc.

The point here is that love in our society is quantified.  The stereotypical gender roles don't matter.  Person A) could be the woman and Person B) could be the man.  The "methods of showing love" and values arbitrarily defined to them could be anything. 

The entire point is that A. Love is a mutual agreement between two people and B. Each person is expected to give roughly the same amount of "love" through perceived quantifications of physical actions. 

In actuality, this "philosophy", if you want to call it that, has absolutely nothing to do with love.  And if you want to understand what love really is, and what a healthy relationship is, then the first thing you have to do, is throw it out.

If you'd like to know more, I can keep going.
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Male / Female friendship - Possible without love interfering?
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2012, 05:08:18 pm »
Well, your definition of "love" is a lot more general than the actual romantical-type love I was referring to. I was referring to the amorous male-female romantical kind of love, rather than the unconditional friendship love.


In my specific case, she's on the clear I have feelings for her, and I know she at least has had, but I suspect she still has. And I mean in the "I want to be your girlfriend/boyfriend" kind of sense. But we've chosen to remain friends. So I know you can "love" someoen and still have a great relationship without actually being romantically involved.

My thought was rather wether it was possible to NOT fall in love with a person, by choice. Overcome the psychological need to be loved and to love and the physical attraction. (Doesn't help that she's hawt :P)
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Male / Female friendship - Possible without love interfering?
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2012, 05:10:28 pm »
Well, your definition of "love" is a lot more general than the actual romantical-type love I was referring to. I was referring to the amorous male-female romantical kind of love, rather than the unconditional friendship love.


In my specific case, she's on the clear I have feelings for her, and I know she at least has had, but I suspect she still has. And I mean in the "I want to be your girlfriend/boyfriend" kind of sense. But we've chosen to remain friends. So I know you can "love" someoen and still have a great relationship without actually being romantically involved.

My thought was rather wether it was possible to NOT fall in love with a person, by choice. Overcome the psychological need to be loved and to love and the physical attraction. (Doesn't help that she's hawt :P)
My response would be, that in asking that question, you still don't understand what love is.  If you understood love, then you would know the answer.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Male / Female friendship - Possible without love interfering?
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2012, 05:46:54 pm »
To be more precise: Is Philia possible without Eros, in the kind of male-female relationships Moonshine Fox is talking about? Yes. 

Is it wise to bank on it, in general? In my opinion, no :)
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Male / Female friendship - Possible without love interfering?
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2012, 06:13:10 pm »
To be more precise: Is Philia possible without Eros, in the kind of male-female relationships Moonshine Fox is talking about? Yes. 

Is it wise to bank on it, in general? In my opinion, no :)
That would be putting it far more bluntly than I intended, but that's the gist of it.
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Offline tigersfan

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Re: Male / Female friendship - Possible without love interfering?
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2012, 07:12:41 pm »
Since about High School, most of my close friends have been female. I've had several that have gone on for years where there was never any sort of romantic attraction going either way. So yes, in general, I think it's possible.

That said, I don't, in general, think it's likely. I think Keith is basically right. If two folks (who are of the proper gender to be attracted to each other, this doesn't even have to be male/female) have enough in common and like each other enough to be friends, then when they spend time together, often the desire for friendship grows into a desire for more, in at least one direction. Does this mean that the friendship won't survive? No. I've been friends with women that I was romantically attracted to, they knew it, but were also clear that they didn't feel the same way, and we remained friends. But, it CAN put stress on the friendship.

That's my $.02 YMMV.

Offline LaughingThesaurus

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Re: Male / Female friendship - Possible without love interfering?
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2012, 07:15:46 pm »
Given that my typical decision making process seems so different than what people have had to offer here, I'll contribute it.

I work with what my strongest feeling is, personally. At some point I began to feel as if I loved somebody. The simplest thing to do is to talk about it, so we did. We worked stuff out, and in the following months, we've only grown closer to that feeling. Now, I couldn't tell you if this is wrong, or right, or true, or anything, but I am satisfied where I am going because I follow what feels like a good decision. We aren't in any kind of official relationship, we're taking everything very slowly, but I am happy where I am and nothing else has approached 'feeling good' like this has.
So, what I'm telling you is to really, really take a step back and look at all of the details. If there is a doubt in your mind, then I think you really have to wait until that doubt is extinguished, because the doubt is there for a reason. If there's no doubt in your mind, and you can't see a problem, explore that. You don't learn how love works through textbooks and wikipedia.

Disclaimer: I'm a weirdo who's really good at adapting to things that go tremendously wrong, or tremendously right. If I make a mistake, that goes into the 'feeling good or bad' pot and that's how I make a future decision. Things that go wrong either make you a bigger man, or kill you. That's all they can do.
...I'll also say that if you strictly just want to be friends, my line of thinking applies to that as well. Just do it and see where it leads you. "Can" comes into play when you figure out whether or not it works.
And of course, as I've learned in acting and through general (not particularly extensive) life experience: Either make strong decisions or do nothing. Half-assed attitudes towards anything gets you nowhere.

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Offline zespri

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Re: Male / Female friendship - Possible without love interfering?
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2012, 10:04:41 pm »
My opinion is that it all boils down to whether people a re sexually attracted to each other or not. I have had and still have many female friends towards whom I feel deep affection, but I'm not sexually attracted to any of them. Being sexually attracted to a female makes it difficult for me to be a friend with her. You end up with what Fox is struggling right now; a useless chorus of "what ifs" in the head that while leaves a certain sense of fulfilment, still teases you with opportunity of (I'm)possible more. Simply If I'm sexually attracted to a friend female I'm feeling that I'm not getting enough from the relationship because I want more. And being dissatisfied by a relationship is not a good starting point to make it last. In some cases one can handle being constantly dissatisfied with certain aspect of something because other aspects are rewarding, and in some cases one can't.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 10:06:13 pm by zespri »

Offline Wanderer

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Re: Male / Female friendship - Possible without love interfering?
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2012, 11:40:02 pm »
To be more precise: Is Philia possible without Eros, in the kind of male-female relationships Moonshine Fox is talking about? Yes. 

Is it wise to bank on it, in general? In my opinion, no :)
That would be putting it far more bluntly than I intended, but that's the gist of it.

Please see my personal quote... (to the left, not ... and then we'll have pie!)

I'm going to be worse for the blunt.

In general, I have a lot of female friends.  They are all either A) Friend of girls I wanted to bang or B) Girls I wanted to bang.  We became friends by accident.  We all still flirt, even if we know there's no point to it.  And that's 15+ years later.

Wing was a lot more intellectual than I would be in this.  It comes down to a simple thing... do you want her head on your shoulder in the morning when you wake up and the friendship enough to roll the damned dice or are you unwilling to risk the friendship you have on s*it*uations gone horribly wrong with poor word choices?

Chase it or enjoy it, but pick one and live with it.  You're obviously mature enough to swallow your jealousy and wish her the best, from your earlier comments.  Either be the best, or enjoy your friend.
... and then we'll have cake.