Author Topic: Game Creators Should Never Read Their Forums - Blog Article  (Read 3959 times)

Offline Kemeno

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Game Creators Should Never Read Their Forums - Blog Article
« on: January 07, 2011, 03:02:49 am »
I ran across this interesting blog article today as I skimmed slashdot headlines, and thought I'd cross-post it here, given that it seems to advocate a philosophy totally opposite of Arcen:

http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2011/01/three-reasons-creators-should-never.html

Jeff suggests that game developers should (more or less) never read their forums.

I'm actually rather curious as to why Arcen's forums haven't hit this sort of block yet. I mean, I read forums for a lot of other games (Starcraft 2 comes to mind, and even in his own forums sometimes), and Jeff definitely has a point. Things get pretty terrible in a lot of cases, and I'm sure things would be a lot different here if the community were like that. Around here, there really isn't a whole lot of hate or rage, which probably helps a whole lot - things really don't get all that polarized in general, and it helps that Chris and Keith aid in directing the discussion if things look like they may get ugly.

In addition, AI War has gotten a ton of user feedback, oftentimes pulled straight from the forums, and I think the game has benefited tremendously from it.

Why does everyone else think that Arcen hasn't run into this problem? Are they just too small? Is it due to the types of games they're making? The interaction between the devs and the players? Something else?

Offline Elukka

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Re: Game Creators Should Never Read Their Forums - Blog Article
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2011, 04:49:02 am »
Well, to be honest, it probably has a lot to do with these forums being pretty small. You couldn't do what Arcen does if you were Blizzard.

I think another big reason it works is that the devs are here. People will be much less inclined to be dicks when the people they're attacking are present. I bet people would be a bunch less considerate if the devs never posted, then in turn that would further turn them off.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 04:55:59 am by Elukka »

Offline Reality

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Re: Game Creators Should Never Read Their Forums - Blog Article
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2011, 07:29:46 am »
I think it's largely to do with the fact that the devs here actually do respond in a timely fashion to posts, and their presence is felt quite widely. When people feel the devs aren't listening they tend to increase their complaining/bitching exponentially. One good example of this is the Black Mesa forums, where devs almost never post, and complaint threads about the release date spring up all the time.

Offline x4000

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Re: Game Creators Should Never Read Their Forums - Blog Article
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2011, 12:23:53 pm »
I read that article yesterday, too.  It's... tricky.  Because in a lot of senses, Vogel is absolutely right.  This sort of community shouldn't really work, and in most circumstances doesn't.

Elukka is right that some part of this is the forums being smallish, but on the flip side I've seen many smaller forums that were as bad or worse than the WoW ones.  So while I agree that this sort of community wouldn't scale up indefinitely, I also don't think that it's a primary cause of why the community is able to exist at even a small scale.

My... tentative belief as to why this community works is the following list.  I think that these factors contribute to varying unknowable degrees to make it work:

1. Keith and I are here, and do respond to as many posts as we reasonably can.  We take people seriously, even if we don't always wind up agreeing.

2. When someone does come in and post in a tearing rage (which happens), rather than responding in kind, we treat it as best we can as if it had been posted without the emotional overtones.  Some of our best forum members originally came over and posted something moderately nasty in a real fit of anger.  When they were responded to with humanity rather than with defensive rage in return, their attitudes completely flipped and they became awesome long-term community members.

3. We don't try to please everyone, but we also don't try to make the game one single thing.  With all the various options and configuration ability, players can get the varying experiences they want.  This is key.  For someone like Vogel, who is trying to make one specific experience (a story-driven RPG), it's of course largely play-the-game-as-it-is-or-don't-play.  With an RPG, to some extent that's needed if the story is going to be linear.

3.a. With a game that is more open-ended, we're able to "please most customers most of the time" by providing varying options.  Even when we aren't able to please someone completely, they often don't get in a rage at us because we explain why we can't accommodate X at the time, and they at least therefore had an acknowledgment of their issue.  That, plus the fact that they can see we're trying to please customers and not just ignoring them like most companies, wins us a lot of brownie points.

3.b. But, sometimes when there is emotion involved, and it's a fundamental issue that we and a customer just can't agree on, there are indeed rage blowouts.  There was obviously one recent one that was rather public here, but that wasn't the first.  There have been... I'm not sure, maybe 3 total in 2 years?  Our of 800-something posters, that's not too bad for a forum like this.  But, it's one of those examples of how everything isn't perfect, even in a community like we have here.

4. Keith and I are willing to eat a certain amount of humble pie.  We're not trying to ensure that every good idea in the game comes from us alone.  That means that when a good idea from a player comes up, if it's feasible and there is time, we just implement it and credit them with thanks, no questions.  This isn't a competition, after all -- we all want this to be a good game.  I've seen other designers, both in the games arena and out, where it's actually a competition that they only "win" if the game conforms to their ideas and only their ideas.  This sort of problem goes far beyond forums, and actually is often a problem for employee relations and morale inside the company itself.

4.a. Going along with this, Keith and I have to endure basically constant suggestions about ways our ideas could be better, or ways in which they are not working properly but should be working.  Most people's reaction is to get defensive here.  Mine sure as heck was, especially at the start.  But early on when the forums had a few dozen members, I made a gut-wrenching decision to just keep the emotion on my side of the keyboard and deal with each issue as if it was something I had thought up myself (in other words, without the prejudice against it that results from not having thought of it myself). You may be surprised to learn that is harder than one might think. 

4.b. At any rate, after a certain number of weeks there, which were pretty unpleasant for me, two things happened: I got more used to the process, making it not an unpleasant thing anymore; and players started to trust that I was actually listening, and started making suggestions in a more respectful manner.  That in turn caused a chain reaction that the forums got this reputation for being respectful and places for good and serious thought about the game, and most new members had read enough posts to pick up on this culture and respond in kind.  Those that didn't, and who posted angry/rude first posts, were easier to bring into line because of having this huge community at Arcen's back (and those angry/rude posters wound up happier for it, and Keith and I are spared the emotional turmoil... largely).

5. Also, I think this has to do somewhat with our fanbase.  They are similar to us, they recognize us as one of their own, and we all share a love of the genre as well as a tendency to think about things in extreme depth.  Dealing with the fanbases of certain other kinds of games... well, sometimes there are folks you just can't have rational discussion with.  By nature of the genre and the type of game, or just sheer luck I guess, we almost never run into those folks here.  Or maybe there aren't as many of those folks as I always thought, I don't know.  But at any rate, whatever caused it, the composition of our fanbase in these forums makes all this easier.


Despite all the above, there still wind up being unpleasant events with the way the community has evolved, and things that make myself or Keith (or various community members) mad.  But, you know what?  It's on par with what I've observed in office environments.  Even in a small 20-person company I've observed worse.  In larger 400-person or 80-person companies that were clients of my former employer, I ran into significantly worse.  People are people, anonymous or no.

My big beef with Internet discussion has always been the anonymous nature of it, and how people feel entitled to heckle and have no real stake in groups they join into.  Through whatever combination of luck and circumstance, I get the impression that -- in a good way -- people don't feel anonymous here, even though they technically are.  They become a known presence by their mind and ideas, and seek to maintain a good reputation simply by instinct, the same way we do in social circles in the real world.

Will this withstand the test of time?  Hard to say.  But it will be two years this June, and so far things are better than ever, really, in terms of the nature of the community here.  If AVWW is majorly popular, I don't know what will happen to the forums, but we've seen some significant growth periods as AI War got more popular, and we weathered each of those okay.

So, I'm in the super odd position of thinking that, largely, Jeff Vogel is exactly right in all his analysis there... and yet, on a daily basis, I do the exact opposite and so far it works incredibly well.  I'm not sure how other companies could really duplicate what got created here, because I'm not sure what all the primary factors were in creating a community of this sort, but for myself I intend to keep doing what I've been doing here for as long as it works -- hopefully indefinitely.  For everyone who is a part of community, keeping things positive even when offering constructive criticism or bug reports, they make the continuation of this possible as much as I ever did.  So kudos to all!
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Offline Red Spot

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Re: Game Creators Should Never Read Their Forums - Blog Article
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2011, 01:45:19 pm »
Oh how I like plugging games I like .....  8)
http://www.bzuniverse.com/forum/index.php/topic,12538.0.html

Offline x4000

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Re: Game Creators Should Never Read Their Forums - Blog Article
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2011, 01:47:40 pm »
Thank you! :)
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Offline Echo35

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Re: Game Creators Should Never Read Their Forums - Blog Article
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2011, 01:59:40 pm »
Well said Chris. I do believe Jeff is right in most cases, but this community is different. I think part of it has to do with your involvement (We as the players can see the developers being directly involved, taking our suggestions, but not taking ALL of them and trying to please everyone, which wouldn't be good either) in combination with the tightness of the community. I don't think it has to do with us being a huge community or a small one, as much as it has to do with how much closer and tighter knit we seem to be compared to other games.

Offline x4000

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Re: Game Creators Should Never Read Their Forums - Blog Article
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2011, 02:14:48 pm »
Very good points.
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Offline Red Spot

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Re: Game Creators Should Never Read Their Forums - Blog Article
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2011, 04:24:54 pm »
I also think the developer(listener) at hand has a lot of influence.
At this forum I've seen some post made in a way I thought that those at the least where rather blunt in how they bring their message, Chris responded politely and even thanked them for taking the effort of reporting.
At other places you may come across some moderator/developer that may be a bit protective/bit sharper/ect and things spiral into a slapfest. The later does seem to have a tendancy of happening with the 'bigger' games, but where more people are there will be more conflict ... I would say that is part of human nature ...

I little riot now and again doesnt hurt :)

Offline True-Chaos

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Re: Game Creators Should Never Read Their Forums - Blog Article
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2011, 03:10:06 pm »
I think #5 might be the big one, most of the main stream titles like WoW tend to make things as simple easy as possible so to cater to the largest fanbase they can for more sales, Which leads to lots of players that are... regardless of age, Kids.

Whereas AIW you can't simply try to bash the front door in - The very complexity of it that we all love would tend to drive those people away, and in my experiance its those same people that are most likely to lash out

Offline x4000

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Re: Game Creators Should Never Read Their Forums - Blog Article
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2011, 03:18:34 pm »
Very true.
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Offline Minty

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Re: Game Creators Should Never Read Their Forums - Blog Article
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2011, 06:55:46 am »
I found myself nodding to most of the points in this topic, and there's one additional point I'd like to bring up in Arcen's favour:

The Arcen staff are very much the leaders of this community, in my opinion. And their attitudes (Chris and Keith in particular) tend to point the way for the user-base. They're dictators, but benevolent ones. And as Chris said, not afraid to eat humble pie should certain things not turn out optimally (The recent reversion of the Colony Ship station building mechanic, for example). Conversely, they're also not afraid to stick to their guns on points they don't wish to budge on.

Red Spot actually put it best with his throwaway line calling the Devs "Listeners". While Chris has a certain vision he's aiming towards, he's very much open to ideas that don't conflict with, or that shed new light on his schemes.

And THAT, in my opinion, is why the Arcen community works so well with the Devs being in constant contact.

Offline x4000

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Re: Game Creators Should Never Read Their Forums - Blog Article
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2011, 11:38:35 pm »
I really appreciate that, Minty -- it really means a lot. :)
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Offline Ozymandiaz

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Re: Game Creators Should Never Read Their Forums - Blog Article
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2011, 10:01:48 am »
During the ~year I have been on this forum (and played AI War), it is by far the best one I have been part off.

The tone here is so vastly different to other forums I have been part of, e.g. EVE online (where smack talk and trashing is the norm).
We are the architects of our own existence

Offline Otagan

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Re: Game Creators Should Never Read Their Forums - Blog Article
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2011, 10:38:49 am »
I'm pretty much a dedicated lurker who lacks the time to truly devote to this game but admires everything it stands for, but I just wanted to say that this is the most important part of why this community "works".

1. Keith and I are here, and do respond to as many posts as we reasonably can.

Having the very people who make the game and not just some PR flunkie (no offense to people in PR, but in most cases they don't actually work on the game itself) being active and vocal on the forums results in some of the best discussion that's possible in a setting like this.  People are able to actually change the game and get direct feedback on why their ideas would or would not work.  It's simply fantastic and a huge part of the reason why I am always lingering around here, and why I will continue to be a supporter of your efforts for as long as this general mindset persists at Arcen.  It's a refreshing change of pace from what has become the standard in the industry as a whole, and I love it.
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