League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition

[Mánagarmr]

I also own starcraft 2 (indirectly, it got me hooked on MOBAs actually), and I dislike the main game because it was a "strategy" game but it had so much emphasis on telling your units how to do everything but breathe that I never could concentrate on the strategy parts. Oh, and zerg rushes. I hate those.

THIS is why I don't play RTSs other than Supreme Commander:FA. SO sick of the micro-focus and ability use. I point where you go, you do the rest. Let me handle the overall strategy, and the units handle the actual fighting. I'm also no fan of the "balanced" approach to modern RTSs where units have heaptons of health and counters. I prefer the "realistic" approach where a bomber can absolutely devastate a base, but is made of tinfoil unless escorted by fighters, or AA is taken out before hand.

[Diazo]

Okay.

As interesting as this is, why should I play DotA2?

I have never played DotA1, or any other MOBA, except for LoL.

I consider myself a little above average in terms of skill for an experienced player in LoL.

Everything I'm reading is making me want to not install DotA2.

A game is something that is supposed to be fun that I can pick up with a minor learning curve and do reasonably well at.

In LoL I can pick a champion I've never played before and lane against a new champion I have never seen before and not suck.

I won't be the reason my team wins the game or anything but I can pick up a new champion cold and not lose my team the game.

From what I'm hearing in this thread you need to spend a good chunk of time on the wiki and play games with bots who don't fight back before you even think about picking a champion in DotA, and then if the other team has a champion you don't know the skills for you are dead anyway.

How is this fun for someone who does not know every detail of the game off the top of their head who as a new player does not know 3 of the champions on the enemy team?

Yes, a game does need that deep, skillful play to stay relevant and have any sort of longevity but the entry barrier to DotA is sounding so high I don't even want to try it.

So, why should I install DotA2?

D.

[keith.lamothe]

So, why should I install DotA2?

Given the background you provided, I don't think anyone in this thread is arguing that you should

Same would go for me.

Except perhaps that it's interesting enough to install and give a whirl, just don't plan on getting seriously into it.

[zebramatt]

The way you feel about DOTA2 is exactly the way I feel about LoL (and every MOBA).

[keith.lamothe]

The way you feel about DOTA2 is exactly the way I feel about LoL (and every MOBA).

League's worth a whirl, it's easy to get into and you can just play you + four bots vs five bots and they're capable enough to make it fun for a while.  Doesn't take long to get good enough to school the bots repeatedly but the ride there is one of the more "just plain fun" gaming experiences I've had in the last year.

[Wingflier]

Okay.

As interesting as this is, why should I play DotA2?

I have never played DotA1, or any other MOBA, except for LoL.

I consider myself a little above average in terms of skill for an experienced player in LoL.

Everything I'm reading is making me want to not install DotA2.

A game is something that is supposed to be fun that I can pick up with a minor learning curve and do reasonably well at.

In LoL I can pick a champion I've never played before and lane against a new champion I have never seen before and not suck.

I won't be the reason my team wins the game or anything but I can pick up a new champion cold and not lose my team the game.

From what I'm hearing in this thread you need to spend a good chunk of time on the wiki and play games with bots who don't fight back before you even think about picking a champion in DotA, and then if the other team has a champion you don't know the skills for you are dead anyway.

How is this fun for someone who does not know every detail of the game off the top of their head who as a new player does not know 3 of the champions on the enemy team?

Yes, a game does need that deep, skillful play to stay relevant and have any sort of longevity but the entry barrier to DotA is sounding so high I don't even want to try it.

So, why should I install DotA2?

D.

Choosing what video game you play is also choosing how you spend your life. 

Games are used for relaxation and stressed relief, as well as entertainment, but why can't you improve yourself as a person as well while you're playing?

I believe in always trying to improve myself, regardless of where I am or what I'm doing.  To this end, you'll never find me at a party, drinking alcohol, taking drugs, attending bars, having sex with random people, or any of the other wasteful things people my age tend to do with their lives for whatever reason.

You'll also never find me playing video games that don't challenge me, push me to my limits, and make me constantly improve my critical thinking and strategical skills.

I don't believe that entertainment should be about escaping your problems or escaping your own world.  If your world sucks enough that you need to escape it, you should probably take a break from video games, and deal with real life first.

When I play LoL, I don't feel like I'm challenging myself.  I don't feel like I'm improving in a meaningful way.  The cartoony graphics and oversimplified gameplay makes me feel like I'm playing a game designed for kids.  The fact that 90% of the female characters have huge breasts, skimpy clothes, and a seductive pose makes me feel like the target audience are hormonal teenage virgins who can't get any.

If you play video games to escape from life, don't mind playing a game designed for children, or don't care about constantly improving yourself as a person, then League of Legends is the game for you.  I see little difference between the kind of person who plays League of Legends regularly, and the kind of person who plays World of Warcraft or Farmville.  These are very grindy, mindless games.  If that's your thing, then really, I have no intent on taking that away from you.

I play DotA because it's much more challenging than League of Legends.  The skill cap is much higher.  The possibility for epic individual plays and moments is much higher.  The game is more about strategy and thinking outside the box, and less about doing the same thing better.  There's the freedom of having the entire game unlocked to you, and nobody has an unfair advantage over you just because they've paid or played more.  It's MUCH more exciting to watch (even most of the people in this thread have agreed about that).  And, as we have seen many times in this thread, it takes all of the game-design principle norms that have (in my opinion) ruined the gaming world, and throws them out the window, flipping a huge middle finger to the shitty formulaic developers like EA and their idiotic fanbase.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-LE0ycgkBQ

So you ask why you should play DotA 2?  You shouldn't.  If you have to ask why you should play the game with more strategy, more skill, and more freedom to the player, then you have no business playing it.

I play it because it challenges me, pushes me to my limit, and has made me a better person over these 9 years by teaching me the importance of teamwork, dealing with my anger, and taking responsibility for my own mistakes.

[keith.lamothe]

@Wingflier: does Dota2 not have the skimpy clothing problem?  League's having that problem is the main reason I quit League.

[Wingflier]

Well, it's hard to find a picture of these characters' bodies, because their profile pictures just show their face.  They don't dehumanize and objectify them by having to always include their huge boobs.

I'll try to find official full body pictures if I can, but from what I've seen, most DotA 2 female characters are modestly dressed.

[keith.lamothe]

Cool, thanks   The full shots don't really matter to me as long as they're not encountered in the normal process of starting and running the game.

[Wingflier]

Here are some in-game pictures.  They seem pretty tasteful to me, but you decide.

[keith.lamothe]

Not nearly so bad as league, at least

If I want to pick MOBA back up at some point I'll probably give DotA2 a try, at least to see if the bots are good for a fun match.

[Diazo]

I play DotA because it's much more challenging than League of Legends.  The skill cap is much higher.  The possibility for epic individual plays and moments is much higher.  The game is more about strategy and thinking outside the box, and less about doing the same thing better.  There's the freedom of having the entire game unlocked to you, and nobody has an unfair advantage over you just because they've paid or played more.  It's MUCH more exciting to watch (even most of the people in this thread have agreed about that).  And, as we have seen many times in this thread, it takes all of the game-design principle norms that have (in my opinion) ruined the gaming world, and throws them out the window, flipping a huge middle finger to the shitty formulaic developers like EA and their idiotic fanbase.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-LE0ycgkBQ

So you ask why you should play DotA 2?  You shouldn't.  If you have to ask why you should play the game with more strategy, more skill, and more freedom to the player, then you have no business playing it.

I play it because it challenges me, pushes me to my limit, and has made me a better person over these 9 years by teaching me the importance of teamwork, dealing with my anger, and taking responsibility for my own mistakes.

And it's things like this that make me both want to play and not to play DotA.

When stuff like "The possibility for epic individual plays and moments is much higher.  The game is more about strategy and thinking outside the box, " gets mentioned I go ohh, I want to play.

But then I'm being told you need to be pretty skilled to even have a chance of playing an average game. But I'm new to the game and about as far from skilled as you can get and I am not going to invest huge chunks of time to learn how to play a computer game skillfully, that sounds too much like work.

One of the reasons I keep coming back to LoL is the fact that I only play a couple of games a week usually so the fact that I can play against a new champion I have never seen before and not suck is a major positive for me.

The way DotA is being described is that because there is such a wide range of abilities that if you don't know all the champions, at least superficially, you are screwed. I refuse to invest that much time upfront before I can actually get into a game and pull my weight.

Take the perma-invis that was mentioned. If you don't know about the perm-invis that's almost a guaranteed win for the other team. Losing like that because you did not know something is not fun at all, losing a match where you can fight back is (or at least more) fun, even if you are at a disadvantage for not knowing the enemies skills inside-out.

So far it is sounding like DotA is a blast for experienced players but they have kind of forgotten that people new to the game who want to start playing are not experienced or skilled in any way.

Perhaps a better way to phrase my question:

I would (initially at least) be playing as a solo queue in random pug games. How much time (reading the wiki, playing games against bots, etc.) would I need to not suck?

I'm not talking about carrying my team or anything, but to get to the point where I am pulling my weight would be how long?

D.

[Wingflier]

Well there are bots, which you can put on easy difficulties, just like League.  The bots usually pick from the same small group of heroes, so learning your opponent should be pretty easy.

You can queue for human vs. bot matches as well.  If you're worried about losing, I wouldn't be too concerned about that.  You can have fun while you learn the game, it just takes a lot longer than League to do so.

I would (initially at least) be playing as a solo queue in random pug games. How much time (reading the wiki, playing games against bots, etc.) would I need to not suck?

How long would it take for you to be decent outside of a bot game?  1 bot game every day for 3 months, 1 real game every day for 1 month (prepare to lose constantly), or several bot games a day for a month.

[RCIX]

If you play video games to escape from life, don't mind playing a game designed for children, or don't care about constantly improving yourself as a person, then League of Legends is the game for you.  I see little difference between the kind of person who plays League of Legends regularly, and the kind of person who plays World of Warcraft or Farmville.  These are very grindy, mindless games.  If that's your thing, then really, I have no intent on taking that away from you.

I don't play league to "escape from life". I don't agree it's designed for children (just because YOU may think so doesn't make it true) and if you compare League to any other game out there save some of the crazier 4x games *cough*AI war*cough*, you'll see it's something to the effect of an order of magnitude more complex. And no, I don't care about "constantly improving myself as a person", and that's not a bad thing. I do spend a good deal of my time helping people out every day, and my job also involves that as well. So excuuuuse me if I'd like to relax on my off time.

Anyway, part of the point of the above was to show you how important tone is (and how hard it is to read over the internet), and how poorly yours came across. Please try and make a better effort at it?

I would (initially at least) be playing as a solo queue in random pug games. How much time (reading the wiki, playing games against bots, etc.) would I need to not suck?

I'm not talking about carrying my team or anything, but to get to the point where I am pulling my weight would be how long?

D.

I started in a Dota knockoff for Starcraft, had about 20-30ish heroes. The initial time I spent learning what Dota is about, adapting to be able to visually filter and parse a battlefield, and building a basic database of what heroes did what took me, I'd estimate, 4-6 months of on-and-off play.  Once you get the major concepts (mechanics, skills, lasthitting, towers, etc.) then it's a much slower ambient climb of getting a battle sense and storing champion/item info.

[Wingflier]

I don't agree it's designed for children (just because YOU may think so doesn't make it true) and if you compare League to any other game out there save some of the crazier 4x games *cough*AI war*cough*, you'll see it's something to the effect of an order of magnitude more complex.

I'll digress to your point that whether the game is designed for children is simply an opinion.

Though the cartoony graphics, characters straight out of a Disney movie like Annie and Teemo, abundance of huge-breasted young women, and WoW-based leveling system, all seem to be strong evidence in my favor

However, I will contest your point that LoL is "magnitudes" more complex than almost any other game out there.  DotA itself only piggybacked off of the Warcraft 3 hero mechanics.  In Warcraft 3, you're asked to control not 1 hero...but 3.  Three heroes, while building a base, scouting the map, buying new items, killing neutral camps, AND CONTROLLING AN ARMY.

DotA asks you to literally do 1/10th of what you do in Warcraft 3, and you're saying that it's more complex? 

LoL takes DotA, and simplifies it to an extreme degree, making it even easier and less complex than even DotA, which is already a massively simpler and less complex version of Warcraft 3.  LoL, as far as strategy games go (MOBA/ARTS games are based on the RTS genre after all), is very simple.