Arcen Games

Other => Off Topic => Topic started by: RCIX on August 10, 2012, 10:22:13 PM

Title: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: RCIX on August 10, 2012, 10:22:13 PM
Basically, LoL dumbed down DotA, made it easier for casuals, then sold it as a competitive game.  We can definitely have a discussion about this in OT, but you can't win because all the evidence is on my side; so you should probably think twice before you open that can of worms. 
Challenge accepted!

Quote
Which is what needs to be tackled :P Consider League of Legends: The basic premise and primary means of playing is easily grasped (pick champion, buy stuff, fight), and the twists come from the champions and items that you learn. Or consider a more conventional RTS: there's a bit moreup-front complexity but it's easy to understand find resources > build stuff > club enemy over head with said stuff.
Well, maybe this is the wrong place to have this discussion, but League of Legends sacrifices a lot of depth by being so simplified and user-friendly.

It took the game it came from (DotA) and stripped down the formula to its basics.  It removed many of the most deep and interesting mechanics from the game such as elevation differences, trees, teleports, denying, mana burn, gold loss on death, runes (in the river), magic immunity, and many more things.

Yes, it made the game easier for casual players, but removed a huge amount of skill, depth, and complexity in the process.

When comparing LoL to DotA 2, I liken it to Homeworld 2 and AI War.  Homeworld 2 is much easier to get into, much easier to understand, has more basic mechanics, you can learn most of the important things in like 10 minutes, but in the end, you sacrifice a huge amount of depth and player skill in order to do so.
So I'll start and say that there are things I like in Dota. Trees are cool, Runes could possibly come to League in some form, etc. However, I'm going to disagree with other points.

Please start with the realization that League was created with the intention of removing mechanics that are either massively unfun to play against or just aren't all that interesting/satisfying. This is, after all, a game, and everyone should have fun playing it.

Quote
mana burn
Not only does it not work effectively on the people it's primarily targeting (in Dota at least, mages get very large mana pools), it's basically a mechanism that directly says "I don't want you to play". Percentage burn sorta solves this, but then it's just a giant middle finger to everyone on the other end.

Quote
teleportation
Recall, and Summoner teleport. :S

Quote
elevation differences
I'm pretty meh here, it doesn't feel like all that important of a mechanic IMO. And League got bushes in return.

Quote
denying
Again, another mechanic that is "I don't want you to play". I never quite understood why people loved mechanics that ruined enemy games more than pushed them towards a win. Though to be fair, it's not something you see a ton in your average dota pub.

Quote
gold loss on death
I get that it's a counterbalance to carries farming up expensive items, but still doesn't change that it's another "I don't want you to play" mechanic. This would be somewhat analogous to, every time you scored points in a basketball game, tying weights on the enemy players and removing some (if any) that you have on. At least the basketball equivalent of league is just being able to go faster after each point.


If you find AI War too difficult to get into, and think DotA is too complicated, then you're simply a casual gamer.  Not that there's anything wrong with that, but let's call a spade a spade.
I'm working on AI War (problem is mainly HOW to get into it), but I don't find Dota too complicated. I find that it has way too many stupid mechanics that are overly focused on ruining one side's time, and I also dislike balance by OPness :P

Also, what say you to all of the mechanics League has that Dota doesn't? Most of the more interesting skill mechanisms, something better than "click targeted nuke with stun" as a default ability, scaling mages, the class of "mark and consume" abilities, pretty sure Dota has no recover mana on hit, spell vamp as a stat, a non-obtuse on-hit system...

Chall-ange!
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on August 10, 2012, 11:20:18 PM
Quote
Please start with the realization that League was created with the intention of removing mechanics that are either massively unfun to play against or just aren't all that interesting/satisfying. This is, after all, a game, and everyone should have fun playing it.
Fun for a casual and fun for a pro are two completely different things.

If you want to argue that LoL is more fun for a casual player, you would have a great argument.  Its mechanics are much simpler and more streamlined, and the game is much easier to get into.  However, when it comes to depth and skill, DotA wins hands down, at the cost of a much higher entry fee.  DotA is the more competitive game.  There are more strategies, deeper mechanics, and a much higher skill ceiling than in LoL.

I 'll concede that LoL is the better casual game, but if you want to say that LoL is the better casual AND competitive game, you're going to lose the argument.

Now in terms of certain mechanics being "un-fun", this is just an opinion.  What may be "un-fun" to a casual may be extremely fun to a hardcore player.  Take Starcraft 2 - a very hardcore game.  To a casual, that amount of micromanagement, scouting, building, attacking, using abilities, knowing timings and build orders, counters, and race matchups for every map is NOT FUN.  However, to a competitive player all these things make the game more interesting, deep, and skill-based.

Here are some mechanics in DotA that hardcore players like but which casuals find revolting:
-Denying
-Teleport Scrolls
-Mana Burn
-Magic Immunity
-Long stuns
-Gold on Death
-Costly invis counters (can't just buy oracles and be done with it)
-Tree juking
-Complex items
-Hero Attributes (STR, AGI, INT)
-Dozens of lane setups
-Buybacks
-Much more..

Here are some mechanics in LoL that casuals love:
-Flash
-Ghost
-Cleanse
-Free teleport
-No losing gold on death
-Shorter respawn times if you're feeding
-No denying
-No juking (at least it's a very nerfed version of it)
-Towers that do insane damage early on
-One-dimensional heroes

Quote
Not only does it not work effectively on the people it's primarily targeting (in Dota at least, mages get very large mana pools), it's basically a mechanism that directly says "I don't want you to play". Percentage burn sorta solves this, but then it's just a giant middle finger to everyone on the other end.
Lol this is a terrible argument.  If taking all someone's mana is a mechanism that says "I don't want you to play", then what is taking all of someone's health?  You're telling me that waiting to respawn for 30+ seconds is less of an "anti-fun" than mana burn?  Mana burn is just one way of disabling somebody.  Silence is another way of disabling somebody.  In both scenarios you can't cast spells.  Stuns are another way of disabling somebody.  DotA has more ways to disable people, and less ways to escape disables (such as Cleanse or Quicksilver Sash).  Instead, the player is expected to be pro-active and either pop magic immunity beforehand, "dodge" the disable with several items and skills, or disable your opponent first.

This is the difference in design philosophy between the two games.  DotA is pro-active, LoL is re-active.  It doesn't take much skill to react to a certain circumstance every game, it takes much more to prevent that circumstance from ever happening.

Quote
Again, another mechanic that is "I don't want you to play". I never quite understood why people loved mechanics that ruined enemy games more than pushed them towards a win. Though to be fair, it's not something you see a ton in your average dota pub.
Denying, especially towers, is an extremely important part of a professional or competitive DotA game.  In DotA, supports do more than just sit in the lane "herp derp" spam click my spells on the enemy; they are responsible for that, but also responsible for denying and creep pulling as well.  Denying makes the laning phase much more active, it gives you more things to do than click spells whenever they're off cooldown.  Tower denying is another beast altogether.  It gives you the opportunity, with excellent timing, to deny the enemy team a HUGE amount of gold, often at great risk to your own life if the whole enemy team is at the tower.

Quote
I get that it's a counterbalance to carries farming up expensive items, but still doesn't change that it's another "I don't want you to play" mechanic. This would be somewhat analogous to, every time you scored points in a basketball game, tying weights on the enemy players and removing some (if any) that you have on. At least the basketball equivalent of league is just being able to go faster after each point.
Once again, it's the difference between pro-active and re-active design philosophies.  In DotA, if you're pro-active you can gank the enemy carries over and over until they've become a non-threat and you win the game.  In LoL it's just a farm fest, and it's much less gank-oriented, since ganking somebody only slows down their farm in a minor way.  In other words, you're punished more for dying in DotA because the design philosophy is:  Don't die.  Or if you do die, make sure the exchange was worth it.  When supports and nukers die it's not that big of a deal because they don't need that much farm.  However, when the carry dies, it can set them back quite a bit.

So what I'm saying is that losing gold on death opens up a whole new style of play in DotA that doesn't really exist in LoL:  Ganking teams.  Literally, you can have teams whose only purpose is to go around the map assassinating heroes all game.  The enemy team may have a much better late game, but it never gets to late game because you keep them down so long that you win.  In LoL, ganking teams really don't exist.  The payoff isn't worth it, and with mechanics like Flash and towers that do massive damage, it's better to just farm for the majority of the game and participate in teamfights later.

I'm not a big fan of the boring, passive play that LoL promotes.  It's great for casual players, but not people who want an exciting, action-packed game the whole way through.

Quote
I find that it has way too many stupid mechanics that are overly focused on ruining one side's time, and I also dislike balance by OPness :P
What is "balanced by OPness"?  I've heard this before, and it doesn't make any sense to me.  Do you mean that LoL's balance is so homogenized that nothing seems any better than anything else?

Quote
Also, what say you to all of the mechanics League has that Dota doesn't? Most of the more interesting skill mechanisms, something better than "click targeted nuke with stun" as a default ability, scaling mages, the class of "mark and consume" abilities, pretty sure Dota has no recover mana on hit, spell vamp as a stat, a non-obtuse on-hit system...
I'm not sure what you mean by "more interesting skill mechanisms".  In terms of that, I think DotA wins hands down.

For example, what about a hero who plays something like Magicka (the indie game), that when you combine 1 of 3 elements you can make up to 10 different spells?  LoL has nothing like that.  What about a hero who can "steal" any spell in the game from his opponent, replicating it for his own use?  LoL has nothing like that.  What about a hero who gives his entire team physical damage immunity for a certain period of time?  These are all really neat, game-changing mechanics; I think they are much more interesting than anything I've ever seen in LoL.

In terms of getting mana every hit...I mean that's interesting?  I'm not sure how that's neat or anything, just sounds like another way to regenerate mana.  Of course mana management in LoL is much easier than in DotA because your natural pool regenerates much faster, you can build runes to give you extra mana, or take Clarity, or buy cheap items (like Chalice) to make sure you never run out.  But that's a whole nother can of worms I don't want to go into.

So like I said, LoL is better for casual players.  It has more simple, streamlined, casual mechanics.  Riot's motto is, "We can't do anything anti-fun".  IceFrog's motto is, "If it improves the game, it's going in there".  Most LoL players probably think a 150 gold item which makes the whole team invisible and not appear on the minimap would be a HORRIBLE mechanic, but IceFrog doesn't care because he'll do what it takes to make the game more pro-active and action-packed. 

They're definitely both good games, I just think people should realize the audiences they're each targetting.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Volatar on August 11, 2012, 01:47:15 AM
Poking my head in to explain the "balanced by OPness" thing. What I am pretty sure he is trying to say is that DotA has a much higher level of lethality. Everything does more damage or everything has less health. My personal estimation is that DotA2 has 2-2.5 times the lethality of LoL.

For other examples see the comparison between say, CS:S and Blacklight. The latter takes a lot less bullets to kill someone, regardless of the weapon. Or AI War on the faster paced combat mode.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: RCIX on August 11, 2012, 02:19:14 AM
Now in terms of certain mechanics being "un-fun", this is just an opinion.  What may be "un-fun" to a casual may be extremely fun to a hardcore player.  Take Starcraft 2 - a very hardcore game.  To a casual, that amount of micromanagement, scouting, building, attacking, using abilities, knowing timings and build orders, counters, and race matchups for every map is NOT FUN.  However, to a competitive player all these things make the game more interesting, deep, and skill-based.

I also own starcraft 2 (indirectly, it got me hooked on MOBAs actually), and I dislike the main game because it was a "strategy" game but it had so much emphasis on telling your units how to do everything but breathe that I never could concentrate on the strategy parts. Oh, and zerg rushes. I hate those.

Quote
Not only does it not work effectively on the people it's primarily targeting (in Dota at least, mages get very large mana pools), it's basically a mechanism that directly says "I don't want you to play". Percentage burn sorta solves this, but then it's just a giant middle finger to everyone on the other end.
Lol this is a terrible argument.  If taking all someone's mana is a mechanism that says "I don't want you to play", then what is taking all of someone's health?  You're telling me that waiting to respawn for 30+ seconds is less of an "anti-fun" than mana burn?  Mana burn is just one way of disabling somebody.  Silence is another way of disabling somebody.  In both scenarios you can't cast spells.  Stuns are another way of disabling somebody.  DotA has more ways to disable people, and less ways to escape disables (such as Cleanse or Quicksilver Sash).  Instead, the player is expected to be pro-active and either pop magic immunity beforehand, "dodge" the disable with several items and skills, or disable your opponent first.

This is the difference in design philosophy between the two games.  DotA is pro-active, LoL is re-active.  It doesn't take much skill to react to a certain circumstance every game, it takes much more to prevent that circumstance from ever happening.
Let's put it this way. Would you rather be dead, or alive but unable to do anything? (in a moba ofcourse)

Quote
Again, another mechanic that is "I don't want you to play". I never quite understood why people loved mechanics that ruined enemy games more than pushed them towards a win. Though to be fair, it's not something you see a ton in your average dota pub.
Denying, especially towers, is an extremely important part of a professional or competitive DotA game.  In DotA, supports do more than just sit in the lane "herp derp" spam click my spells on the enemy; they are responsible for that, but also responsible for denying and creep pulling as well.  Denying makes the laning phase much more active, it gives you more things to do than click spells whenever they're off cooldown.  Tower denying is another beast altogether.  It gives you the opportunity, with excellent timing, to deny the enemy team a HUGE amount of gold, often at great risk to your own life if the whole enemy team is at the tower.
I agree, but none of that changes that denying is primarily a mechanic used to remove power from the enemy as opposed to trying to get power of your own.

Quote
I find that it has way too many stupid mechanics that are overly focused on ruining one side's time, and I also dislike balance by OPness :P
What is "balanced by OPness"?  I've heard this before, and it doesn't make any sense to me.  Do you mean that LoL's balance is so homogenized that nothing seems any better than anything else?
People mean that most, if not all, characters have incredibly broken mechanics (hello Dazzle's targetable tryndamere ult on a 15 second cooldown), and it's assumed to be fine by the fact that all characters have more-or-less the same level of brokenness. Possibly true, but that just means every character is a giant pain in the butt to fight in some way.

Quote
Also, what say you to all of the mechanics League has that Dota doesn't? Most of the more interesting skill mechanisms, something better than "click targeted nuke with stun" as a default ability, scaling mages, the class of "mark and consume" abilities, pretty sure Dota has no recover mana on hit, spell vamp as a stat, a non-obtuse on-hit system...
I'm not sure what you mean by "more interesting skill mechanisms".  In terms of that, I think DotA wins hands down.
Thinking of things like Diana's curved skillshot, Fizz fish (?), Xin Zhao rework (challenge passive which interacts with cool ult), etc. Something other than another point-and-click stun, autoattack bounce a la old Sivir, random passive aura, and ult that is "cast Q automatically on targets around you X numbers of times" (Luna, which AFAIK was a fairly recent addition to Dota).

For example, what about a hero who plays something like Magicka (the indie game), that when you combine 1 of 3 elements you can make up to 10 different spells?  LoL has nothing like that.  What about a hero who can "steal" any spell in the game from his opponent, replicating it for his own use?  LoL has nothing like that.  What about a hero who gives his entire team physical damage immunity for a certain period of time?  These are all really neat, game-changing mechanics; I think they are much more interesting than anything I've ever seen in LoL.
I like Invoker and pretend I can play him well now and then, but the reason no Invoker exists in LoL is because if you want a 10 spell hero you may as well just give the character 10 spells, which throws the fun part passive bonuses out of the window. IMO something could be worked out where he just has one way to cast a spell and then his orbs grant effects to the spells, but I digress.

Rubick is cool, and I believe the main reason they don't do that is because of the sheer maintenance effort required for having a hero like that (mainly either storing custom spell effects for 400+ spells or messing with tech to allow usage of existing assets which then imposes more plumbing requirements on all the new heroes, etc.)

(heh, I'm familiar with pretty much all of the released heroes in Dota as well as the mechanics associated)


So like I said, LoL is better for casual players.  It has more simple, streamlined, casual mechanics.  Riot's motto is, "We can't do anything anti-fun".  IceFrog's motto is, "If it improves the game, it's going in there".  Most LoL players probably think a 150 gold item which makes the whole team invisible and not appear on the minimap would be a HORRIBLE mechanic, but IceFrog doesn't care because he'll do what it takes to make the game more pro-active and action-packed. 

They're definitely both good games, I just think people should realize the audiences they're each targetting.
I just dislike the general tone and intent of Dota players that it makes Dota superior because it "doesn't cater to casuals". I don't like a lot of the hardcore mechanics in Dota; does that make me a casual? Maybe. There's a bunch of stuff I dislike about League too. I just don't think that there's anything superior about how punishing it is to players that make mistakes or don't understand how to fight stuff.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on August 11, 2012, 04:06:25 AM
Quote
I just dislike the general tone and intent of Dota players that it makes Dota superior because it "doesn't cater to casuals". I don't like a lot of the hardcore mechanics in Dota; does that make me a casual? Maybe. There's a bunch of stuff I dislike about League too. I just don't think that there's anything superior about how punishing it is to players that make mistakes or don't understand how to fight stuff.
Well I don't think its superior, I mean isn't that just an opinion anyway?

I think it's a superior game competitively because the skill cap and stakes are so much higher.  I think it's much more exciting to watch because ganks and kills happen so much more often.  The lane composition isn't always the same 1-1-2+jungle; literally you have endless lane compositions in DotA, even trilanes, double mids, and double junglers, so it keeps things a lot more fresh and exciting.  I like how Int, Str, and Agi are so different from each other.  In LoL, even the casters can become carries with enough AP, so it really blurs the roles of each hero, where in DotA each different hero seems to have a distinct role.

Quote
Poking my head in to explain the "balanced by OPness" thing. What I am pretty sure he is trying to say is that DotA has a much higher level of lethality. Everything does more damage or everything has less health. My personal estimation is that DotA2 has 2-2.5 times the lethality of LoL.

For other examples see the comparison between say, CS:S and Blacklight. The latter takes a lot less bullets to kill someone, regardless of the weapon. Or AI War on the faster paced combat mode.
Well I would agree with this.  However, it contributes more to the pro-active instead of re-active design philosophy.  In DotA if you get caught out you're dead, where in League you have time to react or Flash away often.  In DotA you always have to be on your toes, predicting the next possible moves of your opponent, where in League you can play in a very formulaic, reactionary way and win.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: RCIX on August 11, 2012, 04:12:21 AM
QQ wheres the hyperbolic arguments, the insults to one side's ancestry? The thrill of a flame war? I can't even get a good fire bath on these forums!

;D

It does seem you're a bit more mellow than the usual Dota player, which is a good thing :) I agree it makes a higher skillcap and also is more fun to watch. I wouldn't want to try and play it anything near competitively though, no more than I'd want to join MLB or pro basketball or anything. Just not worth my time for the fun returned.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on August 11, 2012, 09:21:24 AM
I'M more mellow than the average DotA player?!

I've never heard a LoL player say DotA is more fun to watch in my life! That would be considered heresy and high treason in the LoL forums, even if it were true! 

I think we both just enjoy a different kind of game, I'm just glad we can agree about each game's strengths and weaknesses.  I'll admit that DotA has one of the highest learning curves of any game I've ever played. I just started 9 years ago when everybody was still a scrub (including me), and nobody had any idea what they're doing. I would definitely recommend LoL to players who didn't have the time or determination to learn DotA. My sister saw me playing HoN and asked me how to play. I showed her LoL and she loved it.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: chemical_art on August 11, 2012, 10:12:55 AM
I played LoL for about 3 months everyday. I had almost reached my peak and was ready to try DoTA 2. I knew a newb like me to that game would just be a travesity, so I waited for the beta to come out into full game so there would be a wave of scrubs like ,e.

Now, even if it does come out, I may not play it because I haven't played in of those kinds of games in months. I just may make a new LoL account and bash newbs once or twice, since my favorite character in the game you can unlock almost from game 1.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 11, 2012, 10:28:27 AM
You mean I wake up the next day and I don't even need to bring the firetruck in here?

The AI's pacification emitters must be working better than expected ;)
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Cyborg on August 11, 2012, 10:30:02 AM
I think the mistake being made here is thinking that League of legends doesn't have a high skill ceiling. The major difference between the two games is Defense of the ancients is way more offensive and chaotic, and League of legends allows you to play defensively, as support, and offensively.

Look at chess, easy to learn and a high skill ceiling.

Okay, go back to throwing poo around the thread.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: madcow on August 11, 2012, 10:32:26 AM
Having never played any of these styles of games before. I think awesomenauts looks quite well - awesome!  That's the moba-type game I'm most likely to try out anyways.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on August 11, 2012, 10:51:42 AM
I think the mistake being made here is thinking that League of legends doesn't have a high skill ceiling. The major difference between the two games is Defense of the ancients is way more offensive and chaotic, and League of legends allows you to play defensively, as support, and offensively.

Look at chess, easy to learn and a high skill ceiling.

Okay, go back to throwing poo around the thread.
Well yeah, I guess the skill ceiling of LoL high, I just think (being someone who has been playing these games for so long), that it's rather low for my tastes.  I hit a plateau after playing it for less than a year, and most professional DotA players would probably feel the same.

You used chess and it's a good example.  Comparing League and DotA is like comparing Chess to Starcraft.  In Chess, you need to have a good strategy, predict your opponent's moves, and know some good "build orders", or popular/effective openings.  In Starcraft, you need to have good strategy, predict your opponent's moves, know good build orders AND in addition, know the map's strengths and weaknesses (Chess all happens on the same map), have good micromanagement, have good scouting, know what counters to build when, keep your supply depots up, keep constantly rebuilding your army, etc.

So yeah, I think you could play LoL for your whole life without ever hitting the skill cap, but you're definitely going to hit a plateau that it's hard to move past much faster than if you play DotA.  I've played DotA for 9 years and I still feel like I have worlds of improvement to make.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: chemical_art on August 11, 2012, 11:15:51 AM
I think the mistake being made here is thinking that League of legends doesn't have a high skill ceiling. The major difference between the two games is Defense of the ancients is way more offensive and chaotic, and League of legends allows you to play defensively, as support, and offensively.

Look at chess, easy to learn and a high skill ceiling.

Okay, go back to throwing poo around the thread.
Well yeah, I guess the skill ceiling of LoL high, I just think (being someone who has been playing these games for so long), that it's rather low for my tastes.  I hit a plateau after playing it for less than a year, and most professional DotA players would probably feel the same.

You used chess and it's a good example.  Comparing League and DotA is like comparing Chess to Starcraft.  In Chess, you need to have a good strategy, predict your opponent's moves, and know some good "build orders", or popular/effective openings.  In Starcraft, you need to have good strategy, predict your opponent's moves, know good build orders AND in addition, know the map's strengths and weaknesses (Chess all happens on the same map), have good micromanagement, have good scouting, know what counters to build when, keep your supply

See, analogies are funny like that. By end game in starcraft victory is assured, but unless you have a one sided chess match victory is not assured. In chess you can almost always aim for a draw, and in end game it is almost skill and not pre set strategy, so for that reason I can argue chess is a higher test of skill.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on August 11, 2012, 11:37:32 AM
I think the mistake being made here is thinking that League of legends doesn't have a high skill ceiling. The major difference between the two games is Defense of the ancients is way more offensive and chaotic, and League of legends allows you to play defensively, as support, and offensively.

Look at chess, easy to learn and a high skill ceiling.

Okay, go back to throwing poo around the thread.
Well yeah, I guess the skill ceiling of LoL high, I just think (being someone who has been playing these games for so long), that it's rather low for my tastes.  I hit a plateau after playing it for less than a year, and most professional DotA players would probably feel the same.

You used chess and it's a good example.  Comparing League and DotA is like comparing Chess to Starcraft.  In Chess, you need to have a good strategy, predict your opponent's moves, and know some good "build orders", or popular/effective openings.  In Starcraft, you need to have good strategy, predict your opponent's moves, know good build orders AND in addition, know the map's strengths and weaknesses (Chess all happens on the same map), have good micromanagement, have good scouting, know what counters to build when, keep your supply

See, analogies are funny like that. By end game in starcraft victory is assured, but unless you have a one sided chess match victory is not assured. In chess you can almost always aim for a draw, and in end game it is almost skill and not pre set strategy, so for that reason I can argue chess is a higher test of skill.
End game Starcraft victory isn't always assured, though there aren't very many draws, I'll give you that (I don't think this is a bad thing, draws are boring).

Comebacks actually happen very often in Starcraft 2. 

I remember a game in the GSL with MarineKing vs. an old Starcraft veteran, Nada.  Nada is actually known as one of the best and most consistent Starcraft players of all time btw.

Anyway, basically Nada had a massively superior force than Marineking of like 20 Siege Tanks, and a small group of Marauders/Marines.  MarineKing knew that he would never tackle Nada's force head-on because all he had were a group of massively inferior marines, so instead of fighting him toe to toe, he went for a base trade.  Well, after they destroyed each other's bases, it seemed like Nada had the game in the bag because his army was so much more powerful.  However, Marineking kept waiting for the perfect moment to strike, when the Siege Tanks were sieging or unsieging, and picked his opponent apart with his massively inferior force until finally he won the game.

Things like that happen all the time in Starcraft.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: chemical_art on August 11, 2012, 11:38:59 AM
That sounds...boring.

At least you like it.

I remember in Tiberian Sun there was an option that the game would end if all of the structures in a game were destroyed to prevent the hopping around and the games where it comes down to who gets mad and attacks first on unit to unit combat.

Because although to describe your game's situation, if I had heavy units that had to deploy (speaking great generalities here because I only played the first starcraft) I would camp in a corner and wait if I had the greater unit strength. Hell, I'd watch netflix if I had too.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: RCIX on August 11, 2012, 04:16:54 PM
I'M more mellow than the average DotA player?!

I've never heard a LoL player say DotA is more fun to watch in my life! That would be considered heresy and high treason in the LoL forums, even if it were true! 

I think we both just enjoy a different kind of game, I'm just glad we can agree about each game's strengths and weaknesses.  I'll admit that DotA has one of the highest learning curves of any game I've ever played. I just started 9 years ago when everybody was still a scrub (including me), and nobody had any idea what they're doing. I would definitely recommend LoL to players who didn't have the time or determination to learn DotA. My sister saw me playing HoN and asked me how to play. I showed her LoL and she loved it.
Well yeah, there are only about 4 or 5 super gamechanging ults in League. The crazy broken stuff leads to a good spectating experience, and IMO the toned down, refined design in League leads to a better play experience.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: chemical_art on August 11, 2012, 05:08:49 PM
I'M more mellow than the average DotA player?!

I've never heard a LoL player say DotA is more fun to watch in my life! That would be considered heresy and high treason in the LoL forums, even if it were true! 

I think we both just enjoy a different kind of game, I'm just glad we can agree about each game's strengths and weaknesses.  I'll admit that DotA has one of the highest learning curves of any game I've ever played. I just started 9 years ago when everybody was still a scrub (including me), and nobody had any idea what they're doing. I would definitely recommend LoL to players who didn't have the time or determination to learn DotA. My sister saw me playing HoN and asked me how to play. I showed her LoL and she loved it.
Well yeah, there are only about 4 or 5 super gamechanging ults in League. The crazy broken stuff leads to a good spectating experience, and IMO the toned down, refined design in League leads to a better play experience.

Pick Grim Reaper <Karthus>

Do a crazy dance.

Attack everyone, kill someone.

Laugh at the inevitable insults.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on August 11, 2012, 08:47:13 PM
I'M more mellow than the average DotA player?!

I've never heard a LoL player say DotA is more fun to watch in my life! That would be considered heresy and high treason in the LoL forums, even if it were true! 

I think we both just enjoy a different kind of game, I'm just glad we can agree about each game's strengths and weaknesses.  I'll admit that DotA has one of the highest learning curves of any game I've ever played. I just started 9 years ago when everybody was still a scrub (including me), and nobody had any idea what they're doing. I would definitely recommend LoL to players who didn't have the time or determination to learn DotA. My sister saw me playing HoN and asked me how to play. I showed her LoL and she loved it.
Well yeah, there are only about 4 or 5 super gamechanging ults in League. The crazy broken stuff leads to a good spectating experience, and IMO the toned down, refined design in League leads to a better play experience.
That's a really good way of looking at it :D
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Lancefighter on August 12, 2012, 07:34:41 PM
I have basically nothing to add to this discussion except one single thing, with a few huge qualifications. League is very boring to play. Its going to happen a really obvious and straightforward way. Similarly, its pretty damn boring to watch.

However, I feel like this is what makes league a much better competitive game. Its almost always going to play out really straightforwardly, making it easier to understand for newer players, and making mechanical skill more important, I feel.


On the other hand, dota seems nowhere near as obvious. Sure, sometimes the lanes will be fairly obvious, but in the end that doesnt really mean that much. Scrolls of port, the power items bring in dota, all can change a game drastically, despite what you might think is going to happen.


Because of all of this, I find competitive league really boring to watch. Competitive dota, on the other hand, I find incredibly interesting.
I really like the way dota mechanics work - The highground, the item actives all over the place, how strong supports are at level 1 with their stuns. All of this stuff makes for a game that is interesting to watch, instead of a game of afk farming for 20 minutes.

And the giant qualifications - I have put over 3 thousand hours into league, with my current normals wins at about 1500. I've put about a tenth as much time into playing dota, and only dota2 - I cared very little for the dota scene pre-dota2.


And as a final note - I have an incredible love-hate relationship with rng in dota. When compared to league, where the most rng thing is crit chance (which is usually 25-55%.. not really that random). Sylliabear with his entangle, Chaos knight with his stun, Chen with his test of faith. Even just on autoattacks - each hero has random variance in his autoattacks (Chaos knight can deal anywhere from 50 to 80 damage in an autoattack at level 1)
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: RCIX on August 12, 2012, 07:48:53 PM
What I like about league is that it's the same but different, if that makes sense. There's an established structure of what will roughly happen, but enough varies to have a fun time* each time.

*assuming I'm not doing poorly, which is another topic
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on August 13, 2012, 11:10:07 AM
What I like about league is that it's the same but different, if that makes sense. There's an established structure of what will roughly happen, but enough varies to have a fun time* each time.

*assuming I'm not doing poorly, which is another topic
I actually find that's what makes League so boring.  I mean every new Champion that comes out is just a boring rehash of something that has already been done, because they are unwilling to add anything that might be "confusing" or "anti-fun" to players.  So every new champion seems to be an amalgamation of 4 other heroes' individual skills, but of course it has to be superior, or nobody would ever play it.  This is why characters like Katarina, who used to be, BY FAR, the best solo laner in the game because of the constant harass she could throw out, is now having to be remade because she's so underpowered in a solo lane.  This is why somebody like Garen, who used to be the subject of countless complaints over being overpowered, has recently been buffed dramatically.  I can't respect this method of balancing and champion spam.  The game is quite literally littered with useless champions who have been succeeded by superior versions of themselves in the form of new heroes.  Every 2 weeks adds another unneeded one to the game, for the small price of $10!  You couldn't convince me this isn't a pathetic business practice if you tried.

DotA's new champions are often completely different than what's already in the cast, and add something completely new and exciting to the game.  This is because DotA champions are designed for months, sometimes even years, before they are released.  DotA doesn't have a formulaic 2 week release time, DotA heroes are often released 6 months to a year apart, and only after extensive balance and testing.  As such, they are typically a much higher quality than the average LoL hero.  Oh also, you don't buy them, so there's more incentive to keep them balanced since the company isn't making money off of their existence.

IN ADDITION, even after their long gestation period and release, DotA heroes aren't put into the competitive pool for another few months after that!  Where a new LoL hero is released, after only a few weeks of testing, and often thrown into the game in an unbalanced state, then instantly released for competitive play; DotA spends many months developing, designing, and testing a hero, and even after they are released, they aren't added to the competitive pool for many months!

So which company cares more about balance, diversity, and the health of the competitive aspect of their game?  And which company cares more about making money, even at the cost of sacrificing the balance or validity of the cast with new garbage every couple weeks?

You decide.

Quote
On the other hand, dota seems nowhere near as obvious. Sure, sometimes the lanes will be fairly obvious, but in the end that doesnt really mean that much. Scrolls of port, the power items bring in dota, all can change a game drastically, despite what you might think is going to happen.
Actually, lanes aren't that obvious at all.  Where League always has the same lanes (1-1-2-Jungler), DotA can have 3-1-1, 2-1-2, 1-2-2, 1-1-1+2 junglers, 1-1-1-1-jungler-1-roamer, 1-1-1-2 roamers, etc.  The lane combinations change every game, and have a huge impact on how each game plays out. 

I don't understand how adding more strategic options to the game (either in the form of lane combinations or scroll of teleports) makes it less competitive though, I think more strategy makes it more competitive.

Quote
And as a final note - I have an incredible love-hate relationship with rng in dota. When compared to league, where the most rng thing is crit chance (which is usually 25-55%.. not really that random). Sylliabear with his entangle, Chaos knight with his stun, Chen with his test of faith. Even just on autoattacks - each hero has random variance in his autoattacks (Chaos knight can deal anywhere from 50 to 80 damage in an autoattack at level 1)
There are definitely some important RNG elements in DotA, but they hardly ever decide the outcome of the match.  Just like the same Magic the Gathering players can consistently win tournaments, so the best DotA teams consistently win as well.  I'm not saying DotA has anywhere near the amount of RNG as MTG has, but it's just a comparison to show that even games with a lot of "random factor", can still be skill-based, even more skill-based than games without much RNG.

I'm curious though, if you think mechanical skill is what makes a LoL player good, then what skills do you think a good DotA player must possess?  I would think that a DotA player would require much more mechanical skill than LoL player.  Considering the lethality of the game, the huge loss on death, the non-existence of cheap escape mechanisms like Flash, the abundance of activatable items that each player has to constantly use, etc., I would think mechanic and technical skills of a DotA player would be much higher than that of the average League player.

Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: RCIX on August 13, 2012, 05:40:01 PM
What I like about league is that it's the same but different, if that makes sense. There's an established structure of what will roughly happen, but enough varies to have a fun time* each time.

*assuming I'm not doing poorly, which is another topic
I actually find that's what makes League so boring.  I mean every new Champion that comes out is just a boring rehash of something that has already been done, because they are unwilling to add anything that might be "confusing" or "anti-fun" to players.  So every new champion seems to be an amalgamation of 4 other heroes' individual skills, but of course it has to be superior, or nobody would ever play it.  This is why characters like Katarina, who used to be, BY FAR, the best solo laner in the game because of the constant harass she could throw out, is now having to be remade because she's so underpowered in a solo lane.  This is why somebody like Garen, who used to be the subject of countless complaints over being overpowered, has recently been buffed dramatically.  I can't respect this method of balancing and champion spam.  The game is quite literally littered with useless champions who have been succeeded by superior versions of themselves in the form of new heroes.  Every 2 weeks adds another unneeded one to the game, for the small price of $10!  You couldn't convince me this isn't a pathetic business practice if you tried.

Actually, reds have stated multiple times that their goal is to create an interesting overall play experience over "omg this skillz so unique" (oh, and Dota doesn't have any room to talk; see Luna, the sivir clone with ANOTHER point-and-click stun Q). Volibear could arguably be considered Garen+Singed+Mundo, but doing so 100% ignores that you put those 3 in a single kit and you get something that plays completely differently from any one.

They've also acknowledged top lane is kinda screwed up in design and have plans to fix that once Season 2 finals are over. Kat wasn't remade because she is underpowered in a solo lane; she was remade because she's an assassin that's overly dependent on pressing Q everytime it's off cooldown in lane to harass, and a snowbally assassin that in theory should be able to get by without her high-risk-reward ult but in reality is pretty gimped if someone interrupts it. Garen is getting a remake (not just or mainly buffs) because he is actually worse as far as the top lane problems go than most current top laners (must stomp lane and snowball or is irrelevant, because of horrid scaling and needing to itemize for too much at once).

Also, 70% of champions are picked and/or banned reasonably frequently in competitive play. Sooooo...

DotA's new champions are often completely different than what's already in the cast, and add something completely new and exciting to the game.  This is because DotA champions are designed for months, sometimes even years, before they are released.  DotA doesn't have a formulaic 2 week release time, DotA heroes are often released 6 months to a year apart, and only after extensive balance and testing.  As such, they are typically a much higher quality than the average LoL hero.  Oh also, you don't buy them, so there's more incentive to keep them balanced since the company isn't making money off of their existence.
Luna - Short-ranged Sivir with (as I said) another point-click stun ability and what may as well be a copy of Drow's AD aura (just subbing percentage for flat).
Dragonus - GUISE, I DISCOVERED SPELL SCALING (i actually kinda wanna try this once they bring him to dota 2)
Xin (great name btw) - Ult is puck orb on charge system more-or-less, Yi alpha strike, spellshield (SO UNIQUE), and press-this-button-to-snare.
Rizzrak - ...I'll give you this one
Tresdin - Eh, not bad either, though it does look like Icefrog borrowed some mechanics and swapped out the effects of the mechanics though. Also, who thought Duel was a good idea?

BTW, the last guaranteed 2 week release was months ago.

Try that sorta comparison with Diana, Rengar, or Zyra please. You might get some surface similarities to Akali (Diana), Renekton (Rengar), and Heimerdinger (Zyra) but then you actually play them and realize that kits can share some surface design and still play very differently.

what is ip

So which company cares more about balance, diversity, and the health of the competitive aspect of their game?  And which company cares more about making money, even at the cost of sacrificing the balance or validity of the cast with new garbage every couple weeks?

You decide.
This is what makes it so difficult to talk reasonably about the subject =/ You've come to the conclusion that since they regularly release heroes, and you CAN buy heroes with money (don't have to), they must be money grubbers just trying to vacuum dollars out of player's pockets instead of making a cool game.

Your question, as asked? I think Icefrog cares more about diversity. I can't speak to competitive aspect because I don't keep up on the competitive dota scene, and it's been well established that Icefrog would rather leave something broken and break everything else in it's class rather than find a way to fix the one thing. The better question to ask, as a player, is this: Do I know that the devs care about me? Someone who's not likely to be super-good or compete in a tournament? Are they willing to constrain their design to make my experience better?

The answer for Dota? No. Icefrog will put in whatever mechanics he pleases, playerbase be darned. If it works in a super-high-level competitive environment, and doesn't share (on the surface) mechanics with anything existing, it goes in.

The answer for Riot? Yes. Not only is Riot committed to making a good (in it's own way, I still think competitive league is good though dota may be better) e-sport, they also care about their playerbase at large and would rather gimp a champion or two rather than let pubstompers run rampant at low ELO. They also focus on the end-goal of champion design (actual unique play experiences) and don't practice unique design for it's own sake.

Oh, and competitive? That 70% pick/ban rate says quite a lot, and they're always working on improvement. How many heroes does dota have relegated to dedicated pubstomping?
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Lancefighter on August 13, 2012, 07:04:50 PM
I feel its somewhat important to note that dota2 is almost a direct port of dota1, which had to do a lot of things with wc3 mechanics. If they werent focusing so much on porting stuff directly, they could do things that league does. Its kinda difficult to make stuff unique when you are worrying about using the spells wc3 does.
For instance, I havent seen a single on-next autoattack reset thing, like.. darius, garen, jax, leona, poppy, renekton, (rengar), sivir, talon, trundle, tf, vayne, volibear, wukong, xin, yorick.

Sure, dota copies a lot of 'its a point click stun', but thats just because thats a fairly easy mechanic to actually do. I feel most of them have enough variation to give them enough merit individually, similarly to how most onhits in league work differently.

On this note, there are many champions in league that have spent upwards of 6 months in development. Orianna and renekton, diana, are good examples of this - They had to completely write new mechanics for the engine to get them to work. They dont have a 2 week design time, they merely are creating so many champions at once, they can release them once per two weeks. Sure, some take less time to make than others, (if i had to guess, darius took all of an afternoon to completely make, sans art)
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: RCIX on August 13, 2012, 07:37:20 PM
Now that I think about it, I would say that Dota and League or sorta sideways moves in terms of diversity - You'll never see anything really cool involving pets or stuff in Dota(Orianna, Yorick though he could be better, Mordekaiser, Lulu and Pix, Zyra), and you won't see some of the more interesting adaptive designs in League (Morphling, Invoker, stat steals, etc.). I mean, Dota does have pets, but it's usually just... It's dangerous to go alone! Here, take this pet! and there are steroids in League but nothing that lets a character even pretend he can mass swap from damage to regen to movespeed or health-steroid himself when he's in danger.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on August 13, 2012, 07:53:42 PM
Quote
Actually, reds have stated multiple times that their goal is to create an interesting overall play experience over "omg this skillz so unique"
Well yeah, that's what they say publicly, but in my personal opinion, stealing skills from a bunch of heroes you already have and putting them on a new one isn't interesting or an improvement, it just makes the old heroes obsolete.   I think their FIRST goal is to make money, then everything else after that.  Let's not mince words here, Riot could EASILY sustain itself with just skin sales alone, even if they made all champions and rune pages free to the public.  They choose not to even though their 2 main competitors have because they're greedy and they know they can get away with it.

Quote
oh, and Dota doesn't have any room to talk; see Luna, the sivir clone with ANOTHER point-and-click stun Q).
I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but Luna was out YEARS before League of Legends was even announced.  It's a relatively old DotA hero.

Quote
Volibear could arguably be considered Garen+Singed+Mundo, but doing so 100% ignores that you put those 3 in a single kit and you get something that plays completely differently from any one.
And also makes them all obsolete in the process, hence the consequent buffs to the latter 3 in recent months.

Quote
They've also acknowledged top lane is kinda screwed up in design and have plans to fix that once Season 2 finals are over.
The lanes in general are screwed up in design, it's boring and it's the same combinations every time.  Tanky DPS top, AP Carry mid, AD Carry and Support bot, and jungler.  How is that interesting?  It's so boring and formulaic it makes me want to die just thinking about it.  I don't see how changing the top lane is going to fix that.  Hell, even HoN which is (in my opinion) vastly inferior to DotA has more interesting and varied lane combos than that.

Quote
Kat wasn't remade because she is underpowered in a solo lane; she was remade because she's an assassin that's overly dependent on pressing Q everytime it's off cooldown in lane to harass, and a snowbally assassin that in theory should be able to get by without her high-risk-reward ult but in reality is pretty gimped if someone interrupts it.
This doesn't change the fact that Katarina was, by far, one of the most powerful solo laners in the game until she started being replaced by better version of herself, and better laners.  Miss Fortune was the first one, being a ranged champion who was similar to Kat but pretty much superior in every way.

Quote
Garen is getting a remake (not just or mainly buffs) because he is actually worse as far as the top lane problems go than most current top laners (must stomp lane and snowball or is irrelevant, because of horrid scaling and needing to itemize for too much at once).
Once again because of the massive power inflation from constantly releasing new and better champions, who are just better versions of original content, heroes that were once some of the best in the game are now having to be remade.

More champions have had to be remade in the 2-3 years of LoL than in the 9-10 years of DotA, what does that say about the quality of the game and the balancing?

Quote
Also, 70% of champions are picked and/or banned reasonably frequently in competitive play. Sooooo...
I'm pretty sure the number is even higher than that in DotA.

Quote
Dragonus - GUISE, I DISCOVERED SPELL SCALING (i actually kinda wanna try this once they bring him to dota 2)
Dragonus is unique in that his spell damage scales with his Intelligence.  This isn't completely unique, Silencer's auto-attack damage already scaled with Intelligence.  And please, don't even talk about plagiarism or copying, 75% or more of League's spells are taken directly from DotA lol.  For DotA, this is a new mechanic, and even if League had never been created, it probably would have come along eventually since IceFrog is always looking for interesting new things to do.

Quote
Xin (great name btw) - Ult is puck orb on charge system more-or-less, Yi alpha strike, spellshield (SO UNIQUE), and press-this-button-to-snare.
You don't understand how the ultimate works lol, it's nothing like Puck's Orb.  Ember Spirit gets 3 charges for his ultimate, which he can release at his leisure to a given location.  When he releases a charge, it releases a fire remnant at a target location, which then sits there for 45 seconds before it disappears.  At any time, Xin can cast his ultimate and dash between all the stationary Fire Remnants, exploding them for aoe damage as he passes through them, and ending up at the one you targeted.

This is much cooler than any League mechanics I can think of.  It allows for interesting chase, escape, and map control, as well as excellent mobility for a carry hero.

Also, Yi's Alpha strike was already copied off Juggernaught's Ultimate, it's practically the same thing, it just doesn't do as much damage, and has a much shorter cooldown.  Spellshield is not like Sivir's spellshield either, it blocks a set amount of magic damage and increases your DPS in the meantime.  It makes him a powerful anti-caster carry.  Finally, his snare hits 2 random targets, so it's not a press-to-snare, you should position yourself to where your enemies aren't near creeps, otherwise your snares might be wasted.

This hero concept is so much more interesting, diverse, and unique than any League concept I've heard of lately.

Quote
Tresdin - Eh, not bad either, though it does look like Icefrog borrowed some mechanics and swapped out the effects of the mechanics though. Also, who thought Duel was a good idea?
Duel is a great idea, it makes him a powerful anti-carry tank/support.  It opens up new options and team compositions, and a powerful counter to many heroes.

Quote
The answer for Dota? No. Icefrog will put in whatever mechanics he pleases, playerbase be darned. If it works in a super-high-level competitive environment, and doesn't share (on the surface) mechanics with anything existing, it goes in.
You don't balance for pub games, you balance for high level play.  It makes no sense to balance for the worst players.  In Chess, there is a common strategy in which, in 3 moves, you can defeat a noob opponent with your queen.  Should we nerf the Queen in the early game of Chess so that noobs don't get owned by a cheesy strategy?  In Starcraft 2, Marine + Bunker rushing or Helion rushing is really hard and cheesy for noobs to deal with, they lose to it often.  Should we nerf these strategies and ruin their viability in competitive play, or should we ask new players to get better at the game?

It wouldn't surprise me if League balanced for the pub level, it would explain why their high-level games are such a snoozefest and a bore.  They're more concerned with keeping the bads happy than making a game that's exciting to play and watch at the highest levels.  If that's what they want to do, that's fine with me.

Quote
I feel its somewhat important to note that dota2 is almost a direct port of dota1, which had to do a lot of things with wc3 mechanics. If they werent focusing so much on porting stuff directly, they could do things that league does. Its kinda difficult to make stuff unique when you are worrying about using the spells wc3 does.
The WC3 engine could do pretty much everything the Riot Engine can do, sans possibly vector targeting (not that important tbh).  Not all of the mechanics in DotA 2 existed in DotA 1, but most of them stand outside of the game (such as the reconnect feature).  DotA's problem was never that it didn't have unique or original content, it's that it was on an old and outdated engine that needed to be upgraded.  DotA 2's content is much more unique and exciting than League's.  Like I said before, DotA has pretty much all the skills that exist in League, plus many more that they would never add (mana burn, spell steal, damage based on movement, throwing allies and enemies, having 10 skills on 1 hero, etc.).

Quote
For instance, I havent seen a single on-next autoattack reset thing, like.. darius, garen, jax, leona, poppy, renekton, (rengar), sivir, talon, trundle, tf, vayne, volibear, wukong, xin, yorick.
You're splitting hairs over an autoattack reset ability?  How is that a good mechanic for the game?  What does it add that's so spectacular?  Oh, I get to attack again?  I mean it just seems like it takes skill away but allowing the player to ignore their autoattack timings, then just hit a button whenever they want to get a last hit or a kill.  I don't see what this mechanic adds.

Quote
Now that I think about it, I would say that Dota and League or sorta sideways moves in terms of diversity - You'll never see anything really cool involving pets or stuff in Dota(Orianna, Yorick though he could be better, Mordekaiser, Lulu and Pix, Zyra)
DotA 2 has pets...Syllabear and Lycan are two of the most powerful heroes in competitive play, they are both banned basically every game.  Syllabear's pet is so powerful that it can have 6 items and it has a snare that holds people in place for 3 seconds.  Also, I think "pet heroes" in DotA are much more interesting because they can steal pets from the jungle and steal pets from each other.  Enchantress and Chen, 2 heroes that use Jungle pets are also some of the most powerful in the game, and are often picked or banned.  DotA also has another class of hero that doesn't even exist in league:  Heroes that use illusions.  Phantom Lancer, Chaos Knight, Morphling, Terroblade, Naga Siren and more are all heroes who have "pets" that are clones of themselves, which open up a whole new style of gameplay that basically doesn't exist in League of Legends.



Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: RCIX on August 13, 2012, 08:28:15 PM
...must...resist...need to work on tooltips...

-.- I can't.
Quote
oh, and Dota doesn't have any room to talk; see Luna, the sivir clone with ANOTHER point-and-click stun Q).
I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but Luna was out YEARS before League of Legends was even announced.  It's a relatively old DotA hero.
Hmm. I was sure i saw "Released Luna" in a Dota 6.7x changelog.

Quote
Volibear could arguably be considered Garen+Singed+Mundo, but doing so 100% ignores that you put those 3 in a single kit and you get something that plays completely differently from any one.
And also makes them all obsolete in the process, hence the consequent buffs to the latter 3 in recent months.
So i take it you don't play league? Volibear is underplayed if not actually weak; Mundo clears the jungle WAY better than he does, Singed is a better tank (if fed... he's a farm-dependent tank), Garen is... well, garen.


Quote
They've also acknowledged top lane is kinda screwed up in design and have plans to fix that once Season 2 finals are over.
The lanes in general are screwed up in design, it's boring and it's the same combinations every time.  Tanky DPS top, AP Carry mid, AD Carry and Support bot, and jungler.  How is that interesting?  It's so boring and formulaic it makes me want to die just thinking about it.  I don't see how changing the top lane is going to fix that.  Hell, even HoN which is (in my opinion) vastly inferior to DotA has more interesting and varied lane combos than that.
You hate the predictability, I hate the unpredictability.


Quote
Kat wasn't remade because she is underpowered in a solo lane; she was remade because she's an assassin that's overly dependent on pressing Q everytime it's off cooldown in lane to harass, and a snowbally assassin that in theory should be able to get by without her high-risk-reward ult but in reality is pretty gimped if someone interrupts it.
This doesn't change the fact that Katarina was, by far, one of the most powerful solo laners in the game until she started being replaced by better version of herself, and better laners.  Miss Fortune was the first one, being a ranged champion who was similar to Kat but pretty much superior in every way.
...you just lost a bunch of credibilty by comparing Kat to Miss Fortune. She's in the assassin class which as a whole is suffering design issues, not that they just released stronger champions as a money grab.


Quote
Garen is getting a remake (not just or mainly buffs) because he is actually worse as far as the top lane problems go than most current top laners (must stomp lane and snowball or is irrelevant, because of horrid scaling and needing to itemize for too much at once).
Once again because of the massive power inflation from constantly releasing new and better champions, who are just better versions of original content, heroes that were once some of the best in the game are now having to be remade.
As i said, this is a top-lane specific issue. Garen was always stomp-or-be-stomped, but he did lose dominance from power creep (which does exist in top lane).


Quote
The answer for Dota? No. Icefrog will put in whatever mechanics he pleases, playerbase be darned. If it works in a super-high-level competitive environment, and doesn't share (on the surface) mechanics with anything existing, it goes in.
You don't balance for pub games, you balance for high level play.  It makes no sense to balance for the worst players.
Then you won't have anyone but the hardcore players playing your game. If you're explicitly going to ignore me and my feedback as a player (and with how far Icefrog takes the pubsotmp mechanics and troll friendly stuff, I get the impression he's "sticking it to the noobs"), then I'm going to ignore you and your game. (And I don't even ignore dota! it's more of making a point, I'm probably never going to try and seriously play it beyond coop/bot games)


In Chess, there is a common strategy in which, in 3 moves, you can defeat a noob opponent with your queen.  Should we nerf the Queen in the early game of Chess so that noobs don't get owned by a cheesy strategy?  In Starcraft 2, Marine + Bunker rushing or Helion rushing is really hard and cheesy for noobs to deal with, they lose to it often.  Should we nerf these strategies and ruin their viability in competitive play, or should we ask new players to get better at the game?
OK, look at it this way. I'm looking to find a new game. Do I pick A: the game which insists that in order to have my opinion be any value, I must get myself to the top of the top brackets? Or do I pick the game that B: values all players opinions and isn't willing to leave in mechanics that ruin games for most of them?

Oh, and there's a difference between asking your players to get better and telling them to stfu, rtfm, and stuff it because they dared to complain about something that's BALANCED!!!!. I'm here to have fun; I only play to win because it sucks so much to lose. And there is light years of difference between what is balanced and what is fun.

It wouldn't surprise me if League balanced for the pub level, it would explain why their high-level games are such a snoozefest and a bore.  They're more concerned with keeping the bads happy than making a game that's exciting to play and watch at the highest levels.  If that's what they want to do, that's fine with me.
Seriously considering bowing out as of here. If you can't treat people nicely, why should I bother listening to your argument? It's incredibly insulting to say people are bads for objecing to noob stomp mechanics, or wanting everyone to enjoy a game.

Consider Shaco. He's an incredibly stompy character against noobs, but worthless in anything resembling competitive play because all you need to do is play it safe and punish him for ganking (incredibly squishy). The result is he's either fed or worthless. If he was redesigned to be less pubstomp, he'd be a character in his own right that could be seen a lot without driving one team or the other up the wall. Diversity for it's own sake is pointless; I'll take a solid but "boring" champion any day over an interesting but pubstomp one. I can deal with shaco (and akali, assuming i'm not on one of the relative few characters she counters) but I still say that they're bad design.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Lancefighter on August 13, 2012, 08:57:52 PM
I believe my point on autoattack reset spells was more that league doesnt honestly have incredible diversity in spells either. An autoattack reset, a point click stun.. Whats the difference? Saying either game has reused abilities or even copied abilities is really kinda pointless.

(additionally, according to research, luna was one of the original 20 heros in dota)
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on August 13, 2012, 09:44:52 PM
Quote
...you just lost a bunch of credibilty by comparing Kat to Miss Fortune. She's in the assassin class which as a whole is suffering design issues, not that they just released stronger champions as a money grab.
Okay, it doesn't matter what "class" they are arbitrarily assigned to. In League, the classes are a lot more blurred together anyway since pretty much anyone can carry.

Let's compare their two skillsets:

Bouncing Blade vs. Double-up:  Long-range harass that hits multiple targets, great for lane harass.

Impure Shots vs. Killer Insticts:  Both passively increase attack damage and give the target the anti-healing effect.

Shunpo vs. Strut:  Both powerful chasing/escape techniques, one works by blinking, the other works by moving quickly. 

Bullet Time vs. Death Lotus:  Long-Range AoE Ultimate that deals great damage in a team battle and can be interrupted with silence or stuns.  MF's is better because it hits 5 targets instead of 3, and is much longer ranged, meaning she doesn't have to be in the middle of combat to use it.

MF is just an all-around better hero in her current form than Kat.  She does everything Kat does better.  She does more damage, is ranged, lanes better, and even has a built-in slow where Kat has nothing like that.

Don't say you can't compare the two, you absolutely can.  One hero made the other obsolete, hence the remake.

Quote
Then you won't have anyone but the hardcore players playing your game. If you're explicitly going to ignore me and my feedback as a player (and with how far Icefrog takes the pubsotmp mechanics and troll friendly stuff, I get the impression he's "sticking it to the noobs"), then I'm going to ignore you and your game. (And I don't even ignore dota! it's more of making a point, I'm probably never going to try and seriously play it beyond coop/bot games)
Well DotA 1 has over 12 million players (if you include the Chinese), so I guess a lot of players are just willing to get better.  I bet DotA 2 will be even more popular than that.

Quote
OK, look at it this way. I'm looking to find a new game. Do I pick A: the game which insists that in order to have my opinion be any value, I must get myself to the top of the top brackets? Or do I pick the game that B: values all players opinions and isn't willing to leave in mechanics that ruin games for most of them?
I would pick the game that designs from the top down, not from the middle up.  That's something we're kind of experiencing in AI War right now.  For a lot of players, the level which they play at, these issues we're discussing (such as the Triangle) don't really affect them, so they get nervous and frustrated when you start asking to change something that they don't understand, when they're still learning the game, or have become used to it a certain way. 

Personally I'd rather ask players to adapt and get better at the game, than to never change their playstyle.  Fortunately, IceFrog is never lacking when it comes to adding new and confusing mechanics to the game, and the playerbase is still here.

Quote
Seriously considering bowing out as of here. If you can't treat people nicely, why should I bother listening to your argument? It's incredibly insulting to say people are bads for objecing to noob stomp mechanics, or wanting everyone to enjoy a game.
I didn't mean it in an insulting way (I guess I shouldn't have used the term "bads").  I meant to say that it's odd to balance a game around the bad players, expecting the best players to get worse, rather than the worst players to get better. 

I personally don't feel like you can balance for both.  You either balance your game from the top down, or the bottom up.  How can you balance for both sides at the same time?

Yes, it sucks to get pubstomped by simple heroes, but it encourages you to get better.  Some people are going to hate this and give up, but some people will continue to improve and eventually be rewarded for all their hard work (and then they can stomp new players).

I can understand if you don't like this style of balancing, I didn't mean any insult by it.  I highly doubt you're a bad league of legends or DotA player.  I meant bad in the general sense, it wasn't meant to be a personal insult.

Quote
So i take it you don't play league? Volibear is underplayed if not actually weak; Mundo clears the jungle WAY better than he does, Singed is a better tank (if fed... he's a farm-dependent tank), Garen is... well, garen.
I haven't played League of Legends in awhile.

Quote
Consider Shaco. He's an incredibly stompy character against noobs, but worthless in anything resembling competitive play because all you need to do is play it safe and punish him for ganking (incredibly squishy). The result is he's either fed or worthless. If he was redesigned to be less pubstomp, he'd be a character in his own right that could be seen a lot without driving one team or the other up the wall. Diversity for it's own sake is pointless; I'll take a solid but "boring" champion any day over an interesting but pubstomp one. I can deal with shaco (and akali, assuming i'm not on one of the relative few characters she counters) but I still say that they're bad design.
Heroes like this in DotA (invis like Spider, Nyx Assassin, Clinkz, etc.) are actually really good in pubs, because of these mechanics.  However, pub players either eventually learn to buy wards, dust, gems, pick anti-invis heroes (like Slardar or Zeus), or just quit because they hate losing.

I like to think it's a nice weed-out process.  I don't mean that insultingly, I just mean that it creates better players.

As far as I know, High School Football has no different rules than College Football, and College Football has the same rules as the NFL.  Now we could make it so that High School Football was 2-hand touch, so that young people don't get hurt.  We could also remove the goal posts since most young people can't kick the ball that far.  We could make the fields shorter because young people's bodies aren't as mature or advanced, so they can't run as fast.  In College we could make similar adjustments to tone down the game for competitive play.  But why don't we?  Because how in the world is anybody going to get better if they aren't playing the same game as the pros?

Also, the thing that makes Luna an interesting hero are not her skills (which are rather boring, I'll admit), it's the way she must be played.  Luna is barely ever picked in competitive play because she is so squishy, has a short range, and is hard to carry with.  However, in the hands of a master, she dominates.

Luna is completely positioning-based.  This doesn't seem like much, but positioning is EVERYTHING in DotA, there is no Flash to escape a bad situation, if you get stunned as Luna early on, you die.  However, to make up for her weaknesses, her base movespeed is 330, the highest in the game.  Most heroes have a 300 movespeed, so she moves literally 10% faster than most heroes, and some heroes move at 285, so she's WAY faster than them.  She farms well and pushes lanes with her bouncing glaives, she does fair in the lane with her single-target nuke if you can keep mana (whether by bottle ferrying or rune control), but where the skill really comes in is using her ultimate correctly.  See, her ultimate sends out a limited number of beams, but the beams hit everything in the area randomly.  So if you can catch a few heroes alone, you can practically kill them by yourself.  However, if you use it at the wrong time, around a number of enemy or neutral creeps or illusions or pets, it's practically useless.  So you end up with one of the most powerful physical AND magically damaging heroes in the game, but only if you can position yourself PERFECTLY against the enemy team, and use your awesome speed to an advantage at all times.

I see no LoL heroes nearly as cool as this, and Luna is a relatively simple design ;p


Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: RCIX on August 13, 2012, 11:08:04 PM
Quote
...you just lost a bunch of credibilty by comparing Kat to Miss Fortune. She's in the assassin class which as a whole is suffering design issues, not that they just released stronger champions as a money grab.
Okay, it doesn't matter what "class" they are arbitrarily assigned to. In League, the classes are a lot more blurred together anyway since pretty much anyone can carry.

Let's compare their two skillsets:

Bouncing Blade vs. Double-up:  Long-range harass that hits multiple targets, great for lane harass.

Impure Shots vs. Killer Insticts:  Both passively increase attack damage and give the target the anti-healing effect.

Shunpo vs. Strut:  Both powerful chasing/escape techniques, one works by blinking, the other works by moving quickly. 

Bullet Time vs. Death Lotus:  Long-Range AoE Ultimate that deals great damage in a team battle and can be interrupted with silence or stuns.  MF's is better because it hits 5 targets instead of 3, and is much longer ranged, meaning she doesn't have to be in the middle of combat to use it.

MF is just an all-around better hero in her current form than Kat.  She does everything Kat does better.  She does more damage, is ranged, lanes better, and even has a built-in slow where Kat has nothing like that.

Don't say you can't compare the two, you absolutely can.  One hero made the other obsolete, hence the remake.
You post this on the League forum, you'll get laughed out of the game. Why?
 * MF has low instant burst; Kat has high burst, measured over both instant and short durations (moreso with new remake replacing W with an active aoe damage)
 * MF has an AS steroid and a passive on-hit, Kat has ability+autos bonus damage (going away with remake btw)
 * MF has an ability that applies on-hits, Kat does not
 * Comparing Shunpo to strut is... What is this i don't even
 * MF's dominant abilities scale better with AD than AP and Kat's are the other way around
 * Never mind melee vs ranged, which contributes to AD carry status on MF and AP assassin on Kat
 * Katarina has no resource, MF uses mana. A lot. (oh, by the way, I'm strongly betting that the time you see a champion with a resource other than mana in dota is the time pigs fly)
 
These all look subtle but they add up to the two champions playing differently, being built differently, and just all around being incomparable. Dota bludgeons you over the head with differences. "SEE HOW DIFFERENT I AM? LOOK AT ME!!!!!" League uses a softer hand and smaller differences in kit design and scalings to nudge one champion into a certain role; this is IMO a more refined design technique. Oh, and this all ignores the fact that Kat is still played in high-level games (Scarra, Dignitas' mid laner being the most notable example)

In fact, I'm gonna go post this on the league forums now. brb

Ok back. Continuing...

Quote
OK, look at it this way. I'm looking to find a new game. Do I pick A: the game which insists that in order to have my opinion be any value, I must get myself to the top of the top brackets? Or do I pick the game that B: values all players opinions and isn't willing to leave in mechanics that ruin games for most of them?
I would pick the game that designs from the top down, not from the middle up.  That's something we're kind of experiencing in AI War right now.  For a lot of players, the level which they play at, these issues we're discussing (such as the Triangle) don't really affect them, so they get nervous and frustrated when you start asking to change something that they don't understand, when they're still learning the game, or have become used to it a certain way. 

Personally I'd rather ask players to adapt and get better at the game, than to never change their playstyle.  Fortunately, IceFrog is never lacking when it comes to adding new and confusing mechanics to the game, and the playerbase is still here.
What's amusing is you imply that League never does that :P Nothing so huge and gamebreaking as Lifestealer (hi, never try and engage anything that looks like a fair fight if I'm missing), but they do ask you to adopt a variety of different playstyles.

Quote
Seriously considering bowing out as of here. If you can't treat people nicely, why should I bother listening to your argument? It's incredibly insulting to say people are bads for objecing to noob stomp mechanics, or wanting everyone to enjoy a game.
I didn't mean it in an insulting way (I guess I shouldn't have used the term "bads").  I meant to say that it's odd to balance a game around the bad players, expecting the best players to get worse, rather than the worst players to get better. 

I personally don't feel like you can balance for both.  You either balance your game from the top down, or the bottom up.  How can you balance for both sides at the same time?

Yes, it sucks to get pubstomped by simple heroes, but it encourages you to get better.  Some people are going to hate this and give up, but some people will continue to improve and eventually be rewarded for all their hard work (and then they can stomp new players).

I can understand if you don't like this style of balancing, I didn't mean any insult by it.  I highly doubt you're a bad league of legends or DotA player.  I meant bad in the general sense, it wasn't meant to be a personal insult.
That's a bit better ^^ They don't balance League around bad players, but they do pay attention to low Elo brackets and make sure nothing's facerolling too badly there.

I'm not encouraged by pubstomp heroes, not interested in playing them (the few that I do aren't the super heavy pubstomp ones and I wish that part would be removed), and think they need changing. I'm not a fan of the fairly binary balance model brought about by them (either they stomp and get fed, or are useless, because their kit doesnt allow for an in between).



As far as I know, High School Football has no different rules than College Football, and College Football has the same rules as the NFL.  Now we could make it so that High School Football was 2-hand touch, so that young people don't get hurt.  We could also remove the goal posts since most young people can't kick the ball that far.  We could make the fields shorter because young people's bodies aren't as mature or advanced, so they can't run as fast.  In College we could make similar adjustments to tone down the game for competitive play.  But why don't we?  Because how in the world is anybody going to get better if they aren't playing the same game as the pros?
League certainly doesn't employ bracket-based balancing, and I don't think Riot would ever consider it. In any case, football is a bad example because I know little about it :P I'm just saying that purposely putting/leaving obstacles for new players to learn the game is bad design...

I see no LoL heroes nearly as cool as this, and Luna is a relatively simple design ;p
There's a ton of cool stuff in League too. Orianna's ball mechanic is really fun (one of the things I enjoy most about League actually), [insert alternate resource mechanic] is really cool, Diana's curved skillshot is awesome, the various different sorts of scaling lets players feel useful at a bunch more of the characters throughout the game, I could go on.

And theme is entirely subjective but near as I can tell Dota 2 is just another high fantasy world (not bad, mind you -- I jsut wish there was more to learn about it), but League somehow manages to pull off the craziest stuff in a somewhat believable manner. So much cool stuff in one world, what could go wrong?
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on August 13, 2012, 11:55:54 PM
Quote
You post this on the League forum, you'll get laughed out of the game. Why?
I'm sure quite a few League players would agree with me that MF outshines Kat in their similar skillset and role, considering the LoL forums is where I originally heard this idea.

Obviously, I'm not talking about the new Kat remake, because the fact that she was outshined by similar champs is the REASON she had to be remade.  I'm talking about the old Kat vs. MF, in which MF was better in pretty much every way.

Quote
* MF has low instant burst; Kat has high burst, measured over both instant and short durations (moreso with new remake replacing W with an active aoe damage)
Bouncing Blade - 200 damage (.8 AD bonus, .25 AP bonus), 7 sec cd
vs.
Double Up - 165 damage (.75 AD bonus), 5 sec cd (198 damage second target, .9 AD bonus)

Impure Shots
- Max Magic Damage per attack +56, stacks 4 times, increases attack speed by 50%.
+
Make it Rain - Total Magic Damage 310 (.8 AP bonus) over 2 seconds and 52% slow.
vs.
Shunpo - 240 Magic Damage (.75 AP bonus), 6 sec cd.
+
Killer Instincts - +24 autoattack damage (woo)

Death Lotus - AoE 550, deals 800 (+240 with max Killer Instinct) damage to 3 targets over 3 seconds.
vs.
Bullet Time - Range 1400, deals 1000 damage to 5 targets over 2 seconds
Basically the same AD and AP Ratios on both.

As you can see, their burst damage is similar, and is done in similar amounts of time.  In fact, MF's ultimate actually comes out a second faster than does Katarina's at a massive range, so her burst damage is even higher.  She also has built-in slow, and attack speed boost.  In addition, she is ranged, so chasing her prey (if they survive) is much easier than for Katarina.

MF's has the burst damage of Katarina (or similar), yet she is a much better laner and carry.  This is why she's a better hero.  You can slam me all you want, or post about me to the idiots on the LoL forums, but there's the math right there.  Their damage is similar, and it happens in a similar amount of time, MF is just superior as a carry, and her ult is much better, making her the better pick.  Hence the Kat remake.

Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on August 14, 2012, 12:03:48 AM
Quote
These all look subtle but they add up to the two champions playing differently, being built differently, and just all around being incomparable. Dota bludgeons you over the head with differences. "SEE HOW DIFFERENT I AM? LOOK AT ME!!!!!" League uses a softer hand and smaller differences in kit design and scalings to nudge one champion into a certain role; this is IMO a more refined design technique. Oh, and this all ignores the fact that Kat is still played in high-level games (Scarra, Dignitas' mid laner being the most notable example)
Umm, no.  Riot makes bad designs that replace bad designs in usefulness, then has to remake the original bad designs because they are now inferior to the new bad designs.

The players perceive subtle differences where there is none.  There's crappy designs and money being made hand over foot.  If Kat's design was actually good, it wouldn't have to be remade now would it?

Quote
What's amusing is you imply that League never does that :P Nothing so huge and gamebreaking as Lifestealer (hi, never try and engage anything that looks like a fair fight if I'm missing), but they do ask you to adopt a variety of different playstyles.
Lifestealer is far from gamebreaking.  He's rarely picked up in competitive play.

Quote
I'm just saying that purposely putting/leaving obstacles for new players to learn the game is bad design...
Well none of the obstacles to learning the game are there on purpose just to make it harder.  I mean were mountains created just so they would be hard for men to climb?  The design mechanics are there because they are good for the game and make sense, not to make it harder on the player.  The player must conquer the mountain (or the design) before they experience the satisfaction of learning it and why it's important.

Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: RCIX on August 14, 2012, 12:17:20 AM
Quote
These all look subtle but they add up to the two champions playing differently, being built differently, and just all around being incomparable. Dota bludgeons you over the head with differences. "SEE HOW DIFFERENT I AM? LOOK AT ME!!!!!" League uses a softer hand and smaller differences in kit design and scalings to nudge one champion into a certain role; this is IMO a more refined design technique. Oh, and this all ignores the fact that Kat is still played in high-level games (Scarra, Dignitas' mid laner being the most notable example)
Umm, no.  Riot makes bad designs that replace bad designs in usefulness, then has to remake the original bad designs because they are now inferior to the new bad designs.

The players perceive subtle differences where there is none.  There's crappy designs and money being made hand over foot.  If Kat's design was actually good, it wouldn't have to be remade now would it?
So yeeahhhh... I'm not gonna get anywhere if you're this entrenched. =/
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on August 14, 2012, 12:25:28 AM
Can you respond to the Kat vs. MF comparison on the previous page?
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Lancefighter on August 14, 2012, 12:28:23 AM
I can.

Kat and MF do completely radically different things, and by trying to compare them, particularly on a per-skill basis, you are merely hurting your argument.

And finally, kat is being remade because she is one of the really early champions. She was released when the game was in beta - I mean no offense when i say that riot simply didn't know what was ideal yet. They were simply playing around with stuff and seeing what worked.

Turns out, in high level play, kat doesnt work. Too good of a best case with too poor of a worst case.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on August 14, 2012, 10:42:33 AM
I'm honestly not trying to be obtuse here, I literally just don't understand what you're saying.

"Kat and MF do radically different things".  How do they do radically different things?  They are both good in the lane with a spammable harass, and a become powerful quickly with levels, making them ideal solo heroes.

They both have a spammable harass.  They both can put the anti-healing effect on the enemy.  They both have a passive that increases their auto-attack damage.  They both have a "nuke", Kat's teleports herself to the target, MF's slows her target, they do similar amounts of damage.  Their ultimates are almost exactly the same, MF's is just better because it has nearly 3 times the range, making it harder to interrupt, and leaving her much less vulnerable while using it.  Their AP and AD ratios are almost exactly the same on all of their skills.

Please explain to me what is so different about these heroes?  They have relatively simple skillsets, they do relatively simple things.  Most LoL designs are relatively simple, so unless you can give me some extenuating reason that these two heroes are "radically different", I'm not going to accept what you're saying.

Do you want to know what's radically different?  An Intelligence and an Agility hero.  An Agility hero and a Strength hero.  THAT's radically different.  Even if two heroes had the same skills, same stats, same growth etc., but had a different base attribute, they would be significantly different in DotA, because of the way you would have to build them.  Mechanics like primary attribute in DotA make for radically different heroes.  Whatever slight differences there are between Kat and MF, and whatever slight difference in item build, I don't see what makes them so unbelievably different.

Let's compare two great DotA heroes:  Priestess of the Moon and Windrunner.

They have very similar skillsets, and very similar roles, but are radically different heroes.

Mirana (PotM):
1. 900 AoE nuke around herself for 300 damage
2. Skillshot arrow that deals 360 damage and stuns for up to 5 seconds (stun based on distance), but is easily missed and can be blocked by creeps/pets.
3. Short ranged blink/escape mechanism, only leaps the way you're facing, also increases your movespeed and attackspeed by a small amount.
4. Ultimate -  Makes the entire team invisible for a short time.

Windrunner:
1. 360 damage long-range nuke that shoots in a line (is reduced in damage the more units it hits)
2. Skillshot stun that can shackle a unit to a tree or another hero for 3.5 seconds.  If the shackle doesn't land it does a small ministun.
3. Heavy movespeed increase/immunity to physical damage for several seconds.
4. Ultimate - Increases attack speed to maximum against a given target (including towers) but lowers damage.

So you've got 2 heroes with very similar skillsets.  1 aoe nuke, 1 skillshot stun, 1 powerful escape mechanism, and utility-based ultimate.  Windrunner's stun is a bit more reliable than PotM's, but PotM does more burst damage total.  The main difference between the two characters are their ultimates.  Windrunner's ultimate isn't very good until level 2 or 3, but can be great for pushing down towers into the mid and late game.  PotM's ultimate is great for ganking and team fights because it makes your entire team invisible.  Both heroes have a similar role (Ganker/Semi-Carry), but accomplish this role in vastly different ways.  In addition, their primary attributes are different.  Windrunner is Intelligence while PotM is Agility, which makes their item builds completely different.

To me, this is "radically different" hero design, even if they have almost the exact same role.  MF and Kat may have a different "role", but their design seems almost the same to me.  I personally think that if MF (and other subsequent heroes) didn't overshadow Kat, she wouldn't be getting a remake, she would just be getting tweaks or damage buffs.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Hearteater on August 14, 2012, 11:21:11 AM
It isn't even possible to compare Kat and MF in any sane fashion Wingflier.  Every single one of your points  are wrong.  Some reach the level of WTF-wrong.  The only similarities MF and Kat they have are: 1) both Champions in LoL, 2) both are female.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on August 14, 2012, 12:24:44 PM
Well I realize that's your perception, I just wish you could explain to me why.  Neither of them are very complicated heroes.  They have a similar skillset and do similar things, and a very similar ult.  Everyone keeps telling me how wrong I am but I still don't understand why.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 14, 2012, 12:29:32 PM
Well I realize that's your perception, I just wish you could explain to me why.  Neither of them are very complicated heroes.  They have a similar skillset and do similar things, and a very similar ult.  Everyone keeps telling me how wrong I am but I still don't understand why.
I forget if it was mentioned, but have you played MF and Kat?
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on August 14, 2012, 01:15:35 PM
Sure, I've played over 1000 hours of LoL (estimated).  I realize their skills and models look at lot different, but the champions themselves seem very similar in role.

The new Kat remake may change all of that, but in terms of the old Kat, it seemed like MF was just a better version of her.  Probably the biggest difference between them was that MF had mana, which is important, but easy to solve with runes, masteries, and items - not a huge factor.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Lancefighter on August 14, 2012, 01:50:12 PM
See, I dont really see the same differences that you seem to claim between potm and windrunner. Both fill a semi-carry/ganker/nuke role, but with windrunner leaning more towards support, and mirana more towards carry.
If windrunner was an agi hero, I've no doubt she would be played more as a carry; her relative low base attack time (1.5, one of the lowest in the game) and decent auto anim give her a really good early game, combined with her skills.

But I would not call them radically different, not the way kat and mf are.


Kat's skillset is all about burst. Her bouncing blades is a spammable nuke because its her only nuke. Shumpo is decent at nuking, but its also somewhat your escape/positioning tool. Kat's killer instincts is basically useless all game, with the exception of the active when combined with her bouncing blade, and situational use on shumpo to decrease damage taken. Kat's ult is designed to deal massive damage to heros near her. This is basically the only similarity I can see with her and MF - Both have an aoe ultimate.

MF is designed to be a carry. Her spells honestly dont scale amazingly with level. She doesnt have burst damage, and she wants items before becoming useful. The key bits here is that she has an attackspeed steroid more than her per-hit steroid - later in the game, the attackspeed becomes far more useful than the minor magic damage per hit. MF is no longer a solo lane hero; She has transitioned to bot lane, babysat by a support. MF usually prefers an aggressive support because of her comparably good early game damage.

It would probably not be too far off to say both of them can carry, but in incredibly different ways. A modern Kat will never stand around and autoattack you to death. A modern MF will almost always stand around and autoattack you to death.

I could say that almost every hero in dota is designed to kill people, take towers, and eventually destroy the throne. Therefore, they are all 100% the same, which is kinda what your argument feels like.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Hearteater on August 14, 2012, 02:35:29 PM
But have you PLAYED both Kat and MF?  Because they play completely differently.

If Kat gets fed early, that's game (pre-remake).  She got +25 gold per kill from her passive.  So each kill just put her that much further ahead.  And with her passive reducing cooldowns on kills, she naturally turns into an insane team-killing shredder.  Watching some of the Best Plays videos on YouTube and you'll see Kat turn up fairly often (unlike MF) because her kit is so mobile and deadly.  She can take a lot of risk for a kill and escape if successfully because her Shunpo gets refreshed.  And her early-game harass becomes insanely ridiculous once she gets a Hextech Revolver (spell vamp) because she has no mana, and spamming Bouncing Blades not only automatically hits the enemy (unless he's staying out of xp range) but also heals Kat up for free.

MF is a really straight-forward right-click champion.  She does nothing super well, or special.  Her best feature is a strong early game lane phase.  But her ult is really poor and primarily used to clear minions, not hurt champions, because her auto-attacks actually do more damage starting mid-game.  Also, unlike Kat, MF has mana to worry about, so her harass in lane is strong, but limited.  Really, unless the enemy team has a lot of healing or you need a lot of mobility for some special strat, MF is not generally a strong pick.

Example of Kat in action (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IWjs5HIT1w).  She uses her ult twice during this (thanks to her passive refreshing it) and her QWE get used repeatedly since they are all refreshed after just one champion kill (and she gets 5 champion kills her, so she uses QWE 4 times each over the course of the 18 seconds it takes her to wipe the enemy team (plus her ult twice).  So roughly 16 ability activations in 18 seconds.  And Kat isn't even fed in this video.  She's 4/3/3 and her team is down 6 kills.

For an MF penta-kill, she either gets lucky with 5 enemies low on life under her ult, or she just right click on one after another and kills them with auto-attack damage.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: RCIX on August 14, 2012, 04:21:53 PM
Well I realize that's your perception, I just wish you could explain to me why.  Neither of them are very complicated heroes.  They have a similar skillset and do similar things, and a very similar ult.  Everyone keeps telling me how wrong I am but I still don't understand why.
* Only one of Miss Fortune's skills is instant damage, 2 of Kat's are (pre-remake, it's 3 post-remake)
 * Katarina has the aforementioned passive skill refresh (which is ironically as much or far more snowbally and pubstompy than ~75% of the mechanics you see in dota), MF doesn't
 * Miss fortune has one of the worst movespeed steroids in the game (a single minion attack breaks it), Kat has a reasonable cooldown blink that will jump to wards and allies as well as enemies
 * Miss fortune has an AS steroid, Kat does not (this is big in determining whether you want to spec AD vs AP)

This is what i'm saying, these ARE more subtle design changes and they DO push Kat into hybrid-but-mostly-AP assassin and MF into the AD carry role.

To me, this is "radically different" hero design, even if they have almost the exact same role.  MF and Kat may have a different "role", but their design seems almost the same to me.  I personally think that if MF (and other subsequent heroes) didn't overshadow Kat, she wouldn't be getting a remake, she would just be getting tweaks or damage buffs.
Which misses the entire point of the remake :P They want kat to be an actual useful champion that's not super snowbally and has counterplay. Not "roflfreeharass and skill refresh but if i dont snowball i suck". No one but an idiot would pick Kat of now in a tournament, because it's too dangerous and if she's shut down then she's useless (and guess what the enemy team will be camping). I don't know if

Which reminds me: If Icefrog is so interested in competitive viability and diversity, why doesn't he look at making a more interesting long-term stealth mechanic that's less flat and "buy x to counter or get stomped"? That's not interesting, and as I understand it the super stealth champs kinda suck in competitive play.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Lancefighter on August 14, 2012, 04:27:41 PM
You see broodmother and bounty hunter a lot in competitive play, but not so much clinkz/riki. Brood more for her safeish laning and pushing power in the midgame, and bounty more (i think) for his track/burst. You occasionally see a sand king, but his sandstorm isnt really amazing at perma-stealth, because he stationary in the middle of it.

I really do like how dota has dust of appearance, where in league youre just screwed without an oracles. Additionally, necro 3 is a really strong item, and allows a lot of truesight safely, so theres that too.

And the dota bots, last I played with them, didn't really berate people.. They do talk a lot though. Now and again theyll spam DOING ROSHAN while standing around the rosh pit stupidly.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on August 14, 2012, 07:19:33 PM
Quote
Which reminds me: If Icefrog is so interested in competitive viability and diversity, why doesn't he look at making a more interesting long-term stealth mechanic that's less flat and "buy x to counter or get stomped"? That's not interesting, and as I understand it the super stealth champs kinda suck in competitive play.
Like RCIX said, invis heroes are used commonly in DotA 2 games.

Broodmother, Bounty Hunter, and yes, even Clinkz appear commonly.  I saw Clinkz just the other day in a big finals game, I don't remember the tournament but his team stomped them.  Clinkz is an amazing hero because he's one of the few carries that can push towers like a rockstar, giving him a whole new role that's extremely hard to counter with his invis and speed.  I expect Nyx Assassin to be used a lot in the upcoming "The International 2" Tournament hosted by Valve.

On the contrary to what you're saying, countering invis heroes in DotA is much harder than in League.  In League you have your tankiest hero buy an oracle and you're done with it.  You can even destroy wards, and therefore enemy map vision and control with this item.  EVEN if it only saw wards, it would still probably be worth the 400 gold investment, because wards are such a huge part of both games.  So in League, here you have this cheap item that detects invis so easy.

I haven't been keeping up with the competitive scene, but tell me, how often are Evelyn, Twitch, Shaco, and other invis heroes used?  You complain about DotA's anti-invis mechanics, but invisible heroes are used all the time in competitive DotA.  How often are they used in LoL?

Every anti-invis mechanic in DotA has some huge drawback (unlike Oracles).  For one thing, they ALL take up an inventory slot.  This isn't that big of a deal in LoL because of the way the items work.  In LoL, the items scale up, meaning the more you pay, the better the item.  With this mechanic, the best items are the most expensive.

In DotA, the items scale down, which means that cheaper items are more cost efficient.  This means that the more full your inventory is, in general, the more effective you are.  It also keeps games much more balanced and makes comebacks more likely because that carry may have items, that while much better than yours, aren't nearly as cost effective as yours.

So anyway, every anti-invis item all take up an important inventory slot that you could have been using for something else more important.

Dust, the cheapest anti-invis alternative, costs 180 gold, and comes with 2 charges.  It reveals invis when used in a wide area around you, however the effect wears off quickly.  If the invis hero can evade you until it wears off, he can escape.  It also has a huge cooldown (60 seconds), so you can only use it once in a battle.  This means multiple people on your team might need to carry dust in order to counter the invis hero, wasting multiple item spots.

Sentry Wards are expensive, and also take up an item spot.  They are stationary meaning the enemy can walk out of range and be gone.  They are my personal favorite counter because unlike dust, you have the opportunity to catch the invis hero by surprise if he walks in range (proactively), instead of using it after he attacks like dust (reactively).  These are my anti-invis item of choice.

Gems cost 750 gold, and they basically work like Oracles.  However, there's a huge drawback:  If the hero holding the Gem dies, it drops on the ground.  The enemy team can kill your gem, or even pick it up and use it against you!  Also takes up an inventory spot unlike oracles.

Necronomican level 3 is another counter, but it costs quit a bit of gold, and has a cooldown twice the length of its duration.  The minions can be killed and to use it correctly requires quite a bit of micro.

So you see, every anti-invis item in DotA has some major drawback.  Aside from the small gold cost, what is the drawback to Oracles?  I don't know how invis heroes are now in LoL, but when I played they were useless.  If you want to talk to 1 company about improving the quality of game for invis characters, it's most likely Riot :P

I'll discuss MF and Kat vs. Potm and WR in my next post.  Thanks for the discussion btw, I hope I haven't upset anyone.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 14, 2012, 07:41:21 PM
the upcoming "The International 2" Tournament hosted by Valve.
Ooh, looking forward to that (checks, marks mental calendar for August 31st through Sept. 2nd).  The live feeds of the first Dota2 International was my first exposure to MOBA gameplay, and it made me pretty enthusiastic about the genre and I played League for a while.  Don't play it anymore (combination of lack of time and other factors), but I'll certainly watch the Dota2 tournament with interest.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on August 14, 2012, 07:51:01 PM
It'll be really exciting to watch I'm sure.  16 teams from all over the world come to compete for a prize pool of 1.6 million dollars.

I think the most exciting thing about it (personally) is how each different country plays.  There are "metagames" for each national community, so you see this huge clash of playstyles that's really interesting to watch.

Heroes that haven't been used at all for one country, may be another country's top pickup, so you really see both teams reeling to adapt to the new strategy they've never faced.  The Chinese are known for their passive, hard carry and farming-centric playstyle.  They'll try to avoid battle as much as possible in favor of powerful late-game pushes with a hero (or heroes) that have basically achieved godlike status and kill everything in sight.

The Europeans are pretty famous for their aggressive, gank and push oriented styles.  European games tend to be action packed, with both teams constantly vying for dominance throughout the match, continually looking for the perfect opportunities to catch an opponent off guard and then use that to their advantage.

The Americans (from what I've seen) tend more towards a team-based, hero clash lineup.  After they early phase they'll stick together as a team, and through their superior coordination (and synergistic picks), win major battles against the enemy team, or push if they're ignored.

Of course these are just templates really, there's major variation in every nation.  These just seem to be the standard fare, and it's awesome to watch them all clash!
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: RCIX on August 14, 2012, 07:56:47 PM
side from the small gold cost, what is the drawback to Oracles?  I don't know how invis heroes are now in LoL, but when I played they were useless.  If you want to talk to 1 company about improving the quality of game for invis characters, it's most likely Riot :P

Ah, but they did! Eve's stealth serves to give her a very interesting niche and makes her a really good ganker (avoids non-truesight wards, can't be seen by enemy champions till she's close, regenerates mana in stealth). It has degrees of counterplay and some back and forth, and less of "someone is useless, who exactly depends on whether stealth is being properly countered" that you see on the pubstompy invis heroes.

When I was thinking of stealth characters, I was thinking of Riki, which seems to be left in for I don't even know what reason. That's the sort of thing I'm talking about when I say it seems like obstacles are deliberately being left in new players' way.

(other characters have tactical stealth which Riot is fine with. She's also a touch underpowered at the moment, but now they can fix this without causing non-pros all over the world to cower in fear)
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on August 14, 2012, 08:59:42 PM
Rikimaru hasn't been used much in competitive play recently, but he is actually a really strong pick.  Used correctly, his permanent stealth ability is not good for killing enemy heroes like noobs in pubs think, in competitive play his constant invis gives an unparalleled level of map control.  The enemy team, aware of his ever-likely presence, has to constantly fear him, and therefore always be on alert.  It disrupts the farm and normally playing patterns, especially of junglers, a place he can go (and with an ally) find a suitable candidate to kill.

Contrary to popular knowledge, he's not just a solo hero-killer, he's also pretty powerful in team fights.  His smoke bomb ability causes enemies to be silenced, slowed, and miss many of their attacks in a large area.  Combined with someone like Dark Seer, Enigma, Magnus, or other heroes who can pull the enemy team into a small area, it can disable the entire enemy team while they attempt to walk out of it.

So I guess what I'm saying is, SA's potential comes from more than being invisible and killing heroes.  He actually contributes a lot to the team if used correctly.  I would say he contributes a lot more than say, Bounty Hunter, who more specifically geared as an assassin than is SA, and who actually gives his team bonus gold for every kill while tracked (making his role fit his name :P).

I haven't ever heard good things about Eve, even after her 3 or 4 remakes.  I have no idea what her latest remake is, or if it's any good.  It sounds like she still needs some buffs.

What about Twitch and Shaco?  Are there any more invis heroes I'm missing?
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: RCIX on August 14, 2012, 09:45:24 PM
Vayne has ministealth on her ult+tumble, Wukong has ministealth on his Decoy, Talon has small stealth on his ult, and Rengar has a "medium duration" stealth on his ult as well (7 seconds). I'm just not a fan of long-term stealth mechanics (in this or other games ;p).
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on August 14, 2012, 10:18:16 PM
What's wrong with long-term stealth mechanics?  I think it makes things a lot more...well interesting.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Hearteater on August 14, 2012, 10:33:25 PM
Riot on stealth (http://euw.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=765024).  There are some much longer in-depth posts, but the gist is: long-term stealth is better against new players than pros, and so to make the champion competitive at the pro level requires a character so strong that they stomp new players horribly.  So they wanted to find a mechanic that wasn't so toxic to lower skilled players.

They were very conservative on the Eve remake, so she's fairly weak right now.  She'll probably get a balance tweak on some numbers in 2-4 weeks.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Lancefighter on August 14, 2012, 10:45:34 PM
Clinkz was picked up in the recent The Defense finals, by Mousesports against Complexity gaming. Black, Mouz's carry player, tends to like picking clinkz, but he is the only one I really see doing it. Mouz only won that game Because of really strong teamfight initiations, and good play in the part of the dark seer more than because clinkz was particularly strong.

On long term stealth - the point is that long term stealth is ALSO usually tactical stealth, an escape, and very strong positioning tool, against people who dont have detection.
Look at current rikimaru, clinkz, bounty hunter - They can stay invisible 100% of the time (closer to 98%, but really 100%). This stealth both allows them to move around the map safely, in the strategic aspect. They can literally appear anywhere o the map at any point. This is similar to old TF and Pantheon - Their ability to strategically move around the map is strong.

They also have tactical stealth - They can move around the battlefield mostly safely, allowing them to position without the enemies knowing where they are. They can use their stealth to instantly dissapear. They can use it as an escape, initiation, etc without too much issue. This is similar to current shaco, vayne, and to a point akali.

Long term stealth is a problem because it is both. It is an escape, it makes people safe, and it allows people to do whatever they want tactically without issue.

If the other team doesnt have vision.

If the other team does have vision, an entire spell of theirs becomes useless. Skeleton walk becomes an ok movespeed steroid that breaks if you do anything. Riki's permanent invisibility is just plain useless. Brood's webs are just a poor hp regen mechanic, and bounty hunter's might as well just be a steroid on his next autoattack. Honestly pretty terrible spells if the other team has vision. Their base stats are also usually pretty low to make up for their amazing escape/etc.

As I said about kat - They have a really good best case, and a pretty bad worst case.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on August 14, 2012, 11:30:08 PM
Quote
On long term stealth - the point is that long term stealth is ALSO usually tactical stealth, an escape, and very strong positioning tool, against people who dont have detection.
Look at current rikimaru, clinkz, bounty hunter - They can stay invisible 100% of the time (closer to 98%, but really 100%). This stealth both allows them to move around the map safely, in the strategic aspect. They can literally appear anywhere o the map at any point. This is similar to old TF and Pantheon - Their ability to strategically move around the map is strong.
Heh, that's interesting because as far as I know (could be wrong), TF and Pantheon haven't been picked up much since their global ult nerfs.  TF used to be my favorite hero, but since his ult nerf, he's become such a subpar ranged carry.  His range is so low, he has no escape mechanism, and he's pretty much outcarried by any other ranged carry in the game.

This is what I'm talking about, Riot doesn't ask their players to get better, they just nerf the game because their players whine about it. 

You think TF's ult was bad?!  HAH, in DotA 2 Nature's Prophet can teleport anywhere on the map, and that's just a regular skill!  (With a low cooldown I might add)

That's nothing.  Wisp can tether himself to somebody, and take both himself, and a powerful ally, anywhere on the map for 12 seconds!  So not only do you have plenty of time to get a few kills, but if the enemy team comes to react, the ult ends and you both go back to a safe place.

http://www.dota2wiki.com/wiki/Wisp

This is what I'm talking about.  LoL says...oh no, we don't want heroes to have global teleports, it makes the game too harddddd.  DotA 2 says, noobs crying about global teleports?!  hug it, let's make a hero that can teleport himself AND an ally into battle and wreak havoc. 

And what do the DotA players do?  They get better.  They start warding more, sticking together so they can't get caught out, carrying tp scrolls so they can help allies, etc.

Some of them quit sure, but in the end you've made the game better, and more appealing to people who want to improve at the game, instead of having the game cater to them.  It's still a very popular game, even with all the hardcore mechanics.  It just appeals to a different audience.

Besides, invis heroes aren't hard to counter.  Literally all it takes is one person on your team to take the initiative and buy invis counters or wards.  You say invis heroes can appear anywhere, but they can't appear anywhere.  Invis heroes are carries, as such, they need farm.  If you see them farming on the map, you know you're safe.  If you don't see them, you're potentially in danger, but they're missing farm.  That's how you balance these heroes.  Every gank of theirs has to be successful, if it's not they're just missing creep farm, and potentially dying in the process.

Yes, most invis heroes are a niche role, and have a snowballing effect, but I don't think that's bad at all.  It's a very risk:reward choice for your team to make.  If the risk pays off, you win the game.  If it doesn't, you made a mistake.  I don't think Stealth Assassin is useless in competitive play, I'll put money that we'll see him at least a few time in The Interational 2.  He may or may not do that well, but it will be exciting to see him all the same :P
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Lancefighter on August 14, 2012, 11:44:35 PM
Theres a reason I referenced old tf and panth ults instead of their current incarnations. Tf currently isnt that bad of a pick (and calling him a ranged carry is INCREDIBLY out of date..), hes just not amazing. He is still picked for his semi-global presence in ganks.

I also spent the last half hour prolonging a game of dota with furion. Porting around, shoving towers with trees, and pressing r because why not. The game was over since the 10 minute mark, but because of my splitpushing and being a dick, it lasted far too long.

I dont supposed youve read the dota patchlogs on Lycanthrope? He has been nerfed quite a bit since release. Like. A lot. I believe at one point his wolves had a bash. He is still PERMANENTLY BANNED in competitive play. Seriously, I havent seen a competitive game of dota that did not include a lycan ban (and similarly, a naga ban). Similarly, dark seer wall is INCREDIBLY strong, and a very common ban/first pick. Prophet himself is often a common ban as well. Dota players arent getting *better*, the ban pool just changes.

Then again, a game of dota has 5 bans on each side. A game of league has 3, and thats only recently.

And finally, there is a reason league doesnt like global stuff. Riot has stated they feel a lot of things arent fun to play against - Do you enjoy playing against a prophet who is constantly pushing and pressuring towers? I know its not very fun. I could feel myself being a dick while doing that. League is honestly designed around a more fun experience for players, whereas playing dota always feels like a challenge, often because I feel I am fighting against the mechanics.

If youll remember, chen can teleport a hero back to base. If you time that properly, a pudge can hook a unit all the way back to his fountain. Does that really sound fun? Its not. Thats why it doesnt happen in league. Not because its OP or anything - Because it just isnt fun.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: RCIX on August 14, 2012, 11:55:20 PM
That's nothing.  Wisp can tether himself to somebody, and take both himself, and a powerful ally, anywhere on the map for 12 seconds!  So not only do you have plenty of time to get a few kills, but if the enemy team comes to react, the ult ends and you both go back to a safe place.

/all Hey Guys, who do you want me to feed to you?

*tethers*
*teleports*

ally: FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
This is what I'm talking about.  LoL says...oh no, we don't want heroes to have global teleports, it makes the game too harddddd.  DotA 2 says, noobs crying about global teleports?!  hug it, let's make a hero that can teleport himself AND an ally into battle and wreak havoc. 
No, actually. it makes the game too easy. Losing? npnp just tp to tower, shove it down, beam back before they catch you, repeat till you win

(oh, by the way, sounding patronizing when imitating riot isn't helping your case of not trying to upset anyone =p)

Yes, most invis heroes are a niche role, and have a snowballing effect, but I don't think that's bad at all.  It's a very risk:reward choice for your team to make.  If the risk pays off, you win the game.  If it doesn't, you made a mistake.  I don't think Stealth Assassin is useless in competitive play, I'll put money that we'll see him at least a few time in The Interational 2.  He may or may not do that well, but it will be exciting to see him all the same :P
It's incredibly binary, which isn't all that interesting as a mechanic.
Long term stealth is a problem because it is both. It is an escape, it makes people safe, and it allows people to do whatever they want tactically without issue.

If the other team doesnt have vision.

If the other team does have vision, an entire spell of theirs becomes useless. Skeleton walk becomes an ok movespeed steroid that breaks if you do anything. Riki's permanent invisibility is just plain useless. Brood's webs are just a poor hp regen mechanic, and bounty hunter's might as well just be a steroid on his next autoattack. Honestly pretty terrible spells if the other team has vision. Their base stats are also usually pretty low to make up for their amazing escape/etc.

And finally, there is a reason league doesnt like global stuff. Riot has stated they feel a lot of things arent fun to play against - Do you enjoy playing against a prophet who is constantly pushing and pressuring towers? I know its not very fun. I could feel myself being a dick while doing that. League is honestly designed around a more fun experience for players, whereas playing dota always feels like a challenge, often because I feel I am fighting against the mechanics.
^is the difference between the two in a nutshell
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: chemical_art on August 15, 2012, 12:07:26 AM
Unfortunately, the beta DotA 2 is just to laggy for me right now. The game hiccups for over a second once every other minute or so. The game just doesn't feel refined. I thought it was maybe me since my internet had changed since I moved.

To test, I then loaded up some LoL. I went through a 50 minute game with maybe 5 1/3 a sec or less hiccups, and 1 one second hiccup.

Never mind the fact I was reminded that part of what makes LoL addicting sometimes is that with somewhat balanced teams that are not ultra echelon in skill the game can swing back in forth. LoL has several mechanisms to allow the potential of a losing team to rally to victory if it can manage to win two or three team fights or wages successful gorilla warfare. Which was exactly what my team did. We fell behind and it was forever before a teamfight started but despite being quite behind we waged successful team fights. As MVP I just waged critical disables and continuous spell barrages as Veigar despite him being a second or even third string for me in picks.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on August 15, 2012, 12:47:31 AM
Quote
No, actually. it makes the game too easy. Losing? npnp just tp to tower, shove it down, beam back before they catch you, repeat till you win
This is horrible caricature of what Wisp does on your team.  If it were really that easy to recover from a losing game with Wisp, you would see him competitive play constantly.  As it is, I hardly see him at all.

For one thing, towers in DotA have backdoor protection, so you can't just kill them instantly before anyone shows up like in LoL.  "Fortify" is a core mechanic of the game so it gives them immunity long enough for your team to show up and push them away.

Secondly, if Wisp isn't getting useful ults, then the hero is a dead weight on your team.  He does almost no damage and is quite literally the squishiest hero in the game.  Everytime you make a Wisp waste his ult (or prevent him from getting a good opportunity to use it), you're turning the game more into a 4v5.

The point is though, that heroes like Wisp and Furion open up an entirely new dimension of gameplay that LoL doesn't even have.

Quote
(oh, by the way, sounding patronizing when imitating riot isn't helping your case of not trying to upset anyone =p)
Sorry, but that's basically their attitude in a nutshell.  Let's not add anything too hard to the game, it'll make people upset.  The sad thing is that they'll remove "hard" mechanics from the game EVEN at the cost of the heroes that relied on them.  If TF and Pantheon have been good since that gigantic nerf, please let me know.  When I played, both of them had been crippled beyond repair.

You can say that Riot doesn't like to add confusing mechanics to the game, but those skills weren't confusing at all.  TF revealed the entire enemy team, so you knew what was about to happen, and his cards preceded him.  Pantheon created a huge circle on the ground for several seconds before he fell.

NEITHER of these heroes were overpowered in competitive play, they were just pub stompers and people were crying.

LoL balances like World of Warcraft, the game it was taken from.  LoL is basically a hybrid of WoW and DotA.  The map and idea are taken from DotA, but the runes, levels, masteries, and cartoony graphics were all taken straight out of World of Warcraft.  They knew they could appeal to the WoW audience, being (at the time) 11-12 million player strong, and they did.  However, they had to balance LoL like Blizzard balances WoW - namely, if something is too hard, and people complain, we nerf it.  This is the reason why invis heroes (with long-term invis) are so underused in competitive play, even WITH oracles, which is far superior of an invis detection item than anything found in DotA.  Riot can't ask their players to get better, they'd rather make the game worse (in my opinion worse).

Quote
It's incredibly binary, which isn't all that interesting as a mechanic.
Heh, well I guess you think Poker is binary too, since that game has a huge amount of risk:reward involved.  Just because there is a high potential of risk:reward, doesn't mean the hero can't come out as a mediocre force on your team in the end, they just have the potential to snowball one way or the other.

For example, even if Stealth Assassin has no farm, he's still a large aoe silence, slow, and attack evasion for your team.  That can be incredibly useful in a team fight if used right.  Spider is fairly useless without farm, but she farms SO FAST because her nuke makes little spiderlings, which create more spiderlings, and before know it you've got an army full of spiders helping you farm.  Spider can recover from a bad early game if your team can keep the opponent busy enough to leave her alone, she farms fast.

Quote
And finally, there is a reason league doesnt like global stuff. Riot has stated they feel a lot of things arent fun to play against
What is this?  Who decides what's fun to play against? 

"FUN" is such a nebulous term.  And when we are discussing what's fun, which audience are we targeting? 

What's fun for a new player is vastly different from what's fun for a pro player.  When discussing "Fun", it seems implied that Riot is talking about the enjoyment of their game for the worst players possible.  The logic seems to be "If this isn't fun for the worst players possible, then we don't want it in the game".  How is that good design philosophy?

Personally, I love playing against a Furion, it keeps the game fast paced and exciting the whole time.  Because he's constantly pushing, you're constantly defending, almost like a tower defense minigame inside the actual game.  Also, because he's constantly pushing the lanes, your carries can farm much more safely since they don't ever have to worry about the lane pushing itself.  Eventually, you catch him, or his teammates off-guard, and you suddenly get the opportunity to push back.

Quote
I could feel myself being a dick while doing that.
It's not being a dick to use a hero the way it was designed to be used.

Enigma's ultimate can catch 5 enemy heroes into and stun them long enough for your team to get a genocide.  You shouldn't feel bad if you get that opportunity, in fact you should probably be proud of yourself ;p (and the enemy team should feel bad for allowing that to happen).

Once again, I don't intend to hurt people's feelings.  I just honestly get the impression that Riot's "anti-fun" and "game too hard" philosophy targets the worst players possible.  As I said, what's fun for the worst and best players is completely different.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Lancefighter on August 15, 2012, 02:18:22 AM
Mostly players find something not fun to play against.

Usually there is a certain degree of respect for players if they are actually able to do something - Like find an opening for a 5man black hole. Against a prophet.. Good job, you can teleport, spawn trees, amove them towards our throne, and randomly ult. Youre such a pro player.


Maybe if I played battlefury carries more often, I could sit and afk farm treants for a half hour, and I might find it nice. But I usually dont play battlefury carries, so I usually dont have an amazing means to clear massed treants+creeps. I would even go as far as saying I dont usually play carries at all, making clearing masses of trees very difficult. You cant reasonably expect your battlefury carry to be able to be in as many lanes as furion can. Unless you have a phantom lancer who is good at farming all three lanes an the jungle with radiance, at least.

So when I am not a hero that can clear waves of retarded treants, I really dont find playing against a prophet fun at all. I just feel helpless - We cant really afford to do anything as a team because treants will push down all of our towers, and we cant afford to sit around and do nothing because treants will still push down our towers. Sure, if prophet doesnt end up taking a rax because we were busy trying to teamfight, and the game gets late enough, our carry will outfarm their team.. But you dont really see that happening in pub play.

Which brings us back to the original point - It wasnt fun to play against.

Remember old sivir? Her ricochet toggle, ult aura, and aoe nuke? There was a point during league's development that Riot wanted games to end sooner. At the 20 minute point, cannon creeps would spawn every other wave instead of every third wave. During this period, a mere 2 or 3 weeks of time, I played absolutely nothing but sivir. I did not bother showing up to teamfights. I built multiple bloodthirsters. I pushed. I did absolutely nothing but push. I could see creeps in the river, and have them all the way to an inhibitor before people reacted to me. At which point I would recall, and teleport elsewhere. I won something like 90% of my games those two weeks.

Was it fun to play against? Well, I dunno. Nobody ever thought to do it back. But riot nerfed the hell out of cannon creeps. Riot also went and nerfed the hell out of sivir. No longer is she master splitpusher, mistress of the sidelane.. Shes just an ordinary carry now. Hardly recognizable as what she once was. I've no doubt that my threat of showing up with teleport in any lane, ulting, and shoving down a tower in seconds time paralyzed many teams. And natures prophet is worse.

Back then, I didn't really feel it was a particularly dickish thing. No, the dickish part was my calling mid each game, and absolutely dominating anyone I was up against (battle mistress style.. You may call me mistress, but only from your knees)

However, when I played furion.. I didn't feel like it was particularly fair at all. I could basically do whatever I wanted, porting around, shoving trees up inner turrets, etc. There was no skill involved, barely any positioning to worry about, and only minor strategic thought in it. I spammed my ult off cd, because why not?

If I were to land a 5 man black hole, I definately would feel more proud and accomplished. A black hole usually has more effect on a teamfight (and landing a 5man one should basically be gg), but it also is a lot more difficult. It will probably take a lot as far as pre-fight and during fight positioning to land it. I'm going to feel more proud. And if it happens to me.. well. There is incredibly easy counterplay. Dont stand 5 man next to each other. There should be someone with a ranged disable at the back, being able to break it. Its something anyone can do, as opposed to counterpushing a furion.

Anyway, I've taken way too long to write basically nothing I havent written before. And I still havent stopped listening to this on repeat: http://soundcloud.com/pablo-vega-music/a-war-worth-fighting
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: RCIX on August 15, 2012, 03:12:04 AM
Quote
No, actually. it makes the game too easy. Losing? npnp just tp to tower, shove it down, beam back before they catch you, repeat till you win
This is horrible caricature of what Wisp does on your team.  If it were really that easy to recover from a losing game with Wisp, you would see him competitive play constantly.  As it is, I hardly see him at all.

For one thing, towers in DotA have backdoor protection, so you can't just kill them instantly before anyone shows up like in LoL.  "Fortify" is a core mechanic of the game so it gives them immunity long enough for your team to show up and push them away.

Secondly, if Wisp isn't getting useful ults, then the hero is a dead weight on your team.  He does almost no damage and is quite literally the squishiest hero in the game.  Everytime you make a Wisp waste his ult (or prevent him from getting a good opportunity to use it), you're turning the game more into a 4v5.

The point is though, that heroes like Wisp and Furion open up an entirely new dimension of gameplay that LoL doesn't even have.
TF is still a great AP mid used plenty in competitive play. Panth is... less so, but for unrelated reasons (he falls off hard unless fed, like most all* physical casters) And yes, when his ults were global they were exactly what I described. Dota just has no qualms attaching enough downsides to a champion that he absolutely sucks without good TPs (or in the case of Furion, not even that)

*technically not all physical but how often do people land a panth ult dead center or use it as a primary, on-demand nuke? :P

Quote
It's incredibly binary, which isn't all that interesting as a mechanic.
Heh, well I guess you think Poker is binary too, since that game has a huge amount of risk:reward involved.  Just because there is a high potential of risk:reward, doesn't mean the hero can't come out as a mediocre force on your team in the end, they just have the potential to snowball one way or the other.
I dare you to find more than a couple examples of that happening. And poker has mechanics built around the high risk-reward philosophy. :3

LoL balances like World of Warcraft, the game it was taken from.  LoL is basically a hybrid of WoW and DotA.  The map and idea are taken from DotA, but the runes, levels, masteries, and cartoony graphics were all taken straight out of World of Warcraft.  They knew they could appeal to the WoW audience, being (at the time) 11-12 million player strong, and they did.  However, they had to balance LoL like Blizzard balances WoW - namely, if something is too hard, and people complain, we nerf it.  This is the reason why invis heroes (with long-term invis) are so underused in competitive play, even WITH oracles, which is far superior of an invis detection item than anything found in DotA.  Riot can't ask their players to get better, they'd rather make the game worse (in my opinion worse).
What long-term invis heroes? They fixed them and made them better designs. Balancing still needs to happen, but now that's possible without "making the baddies cry" (still feelin that attitude pretty strong...)

"FUN" is such a nebulous term.  And when we are discussing what's fun, which audience are we targeting? 

What's fun for a new player is vastly different from what's fun for a pro player.  When discussing "Fun", it seems implied that Riot is talking about the enjoyment of their game for the worst players possible.  The logic seems to be "If this isn't fun for the worst players possible, then we don't want it in the game".  How is that good design philosophy?

Personally, I love playing against a Furion, it keeps the game fast paced and exciting the whole time.  Because he's constantly pushing, you're constantly defending, almost like a tower defense minigame inside the actual game.  Also, because he's constantly pushing the lanes, your carries can farm much more safely since they don't ever have to worry about the lane pushing itself.  Eventually, you catch him, or his teammates off-guard, and you suddenly get the opportunity to push back.
They're targeting the actual playerbase, not the top <10% (probably closer to 1% but I'm being generous). Something I admire more than STFU, RTFM, and "just counter with X" (you haven't said those but I know that most of the dota fanbase at present would be all too happy to tell me this if they read half of what I've said).

And average players don't particularly find that fun. Try and push mid? Lol, furion top shoving down a tower. Try and catch him? Too late, TP scroll out. Get back mid and oh look, he went bot. Rinse repeat till you can hope to land one of the longer-range stuns on him (if you were lucky and grabbed one of those) or he pushes everything down and you lose.



Quote
I could feel myself being a dick while doing that.
It's not being a dick to use a hero the way it was designed to be used.

Enigma's ultimate can catch 5 enemy heroes into and stun them long enough for your team to get a genocide.  You shouldn't feel bad if you get that opportunity, in fact you should probably be proud of yourself ;p (and the enemy team should feel bad for allowing that to happen).
Because you (general you here) know most people hate dealing with pusher Furion, and are doing everything you can to do it anyway because "that's what wins", everyone having fun be darned. And what's worse? Most dota players (again, probably not you) do it just for that reason: to rub it in our faces and make us play a stupid minigame.

Once again, I don't intend to hurt people's feelings.  I just honestly get the impression that Riot's "anti-fun" and "game too hard" philosophy targets the worst players possible.  As I said, what's fun for the worst and best players is completely different.
Here's the core distinction:
 * League of Legends is a game as much as an esport, and Riot realizes this. Thus, they take care of their playerbase at large, and don't step on the little guy because "it's fine in the competitive scene".
 * Dota is esport first, which just so happens to be in game form. You'll only get a voice if you are the top 1% or so of players, and the appropriate response to making a mistake is "lol usobad" instead of "its k, do better next time" (often because there isn't a next time).

And like it or not, there IS a lot of variety and there IS a high pick/ban rate and all of the other diversity measures you want (except maybe lane comps). The only thing stopping em from busting a move right now and fixing major design issues is that the Season 2 final championship is coming up and they don't want to pull the rug out from under all their pro players.
However, when I played furion.. I didn't feel like it was particularly fair at all. I could basically do whatever I wanted, porting around, shoving trees up inner turrets, etc. There was no skill involved, barely any positioning to worry about, and only minor strategic thought in it. I spammed my ult off cd, because why not?
...This makes me want to try Furion. Off I go!
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on August 15, 2012, 10:36:42 AM
Quote
Mostly players find something not fun to play against.
Quote
If I were to land a 5 man black hole, I definately would feel more proud and accomplished. A black hole usually has more effect on a teamfight (and landing a 5man one should basically be gg), but it also is a lot more difficult. It will probably take a lot as far as pre-fight and during fight positioning to land it. I'm going to feel more proud. And if it happens to me.. well. There is incredibly easy counterplay. Dont stand 5 man next to each other. There should be someone with a ranged disable at the back, being able to break it. Its something anyone can do, as opposed to counterpushing a furion.
These two sentences contradict each other.

Riot would never add a mechanic that disables an entire enemy team, even if it is easily preventable by staying apart, or picking hard counters (like Silencer) to prevent it from anywhere on the map.  Yet you said yourself, there's a feeling of accomplishment for landing the black hole.  And if your whole team gets hit by it, you feel like you deserved it.

I'll bet you cash that there's someone out there right now that thinks black hole is the most retarded skill in the game, but that has absolutely no problem with Furion.  That is what I love about DotA, it doesn't care about you and what you want.  It will find your weaknesses as a player, and as a person, and it will exploit the hell out of them until you want to break your keyboard.  The weaker players will quit, and blame the game for being unfair or unbalanced, but the stronger players will stay, and grow, and learn to stop blaming the game and strengthen their own weaknesses.

I can't even remember, throughout these 9 years, how many times this game has made me scream and hate myself for making the smallest mistake; how many times I've considered quitting because of the ridiculous losing scenarios, how many times I've cursed the designers for their horrible balancing methods (though this was primarily S2, because S2 balance != balance).  But I can tell you, without a doubt, that it has made me a better person; not just in DotA, but in life as well.  Everytime I lost a game, this hatred swelled up within me, and I wanted to blame my team, my hero, IceFrog, and everyone else, but deep down inside, I knew that some of the blame belonged to me too.  I used to be one of those hateful ragers that everybody talks about, I would slam my teammates for making mistakes, and be an asshole just because I wanted to win so bad.  To me, DotA is a lot like life.  It doesn't care about you, it doesn't care about what you want.  It's going to beat you down, over, and over, and over again.  Then, it's going to kick you while you're down.  And laugh while it's kicking you.  But everytime you get back up, you'll be a little stronger.  Everytime you get defeated, you will have taken something profound with you.  You can't expect life to change to cater to you, you have to conquer life, that's the only you'll ever be successful.

I went from being one of the worst most hateful players I've ever known, to now being one of the kindest, gentlest, and understanding players.  I constantly give my team advice, direction, and ideas about how to win the game.  I call my lanes as much as possible, and let an ally know if they're about to get ganked.  Go into DotA 2 and look at my commendations, it I have many upvotes for all 4 - "Leadership", "Helpful", "Friendly" and "Forgiving".  But I would never have gotten this far if the game had never pushed me to my limits, never made me reconsider my own feelings and ideals, never not cared about what I personally wanted, but instead was designed for the wealth of the greater good.

Just like you get a feeling of accomplishment from catching 5 players with a black hole, so too will you get a sense of accomplishment when you finally understand how to counter Furion; what heroes to pick, what heroes to ask your team to pick (they will listen), and how to play every game.  If you stick with it long enough, you'll realize that it wasn't Furion that was the problem, it was you.  It wasn't the spoon that bent, but yourself ;p

Here are the DotA 2 general stats.  Furion has a 50.9% win ratio.  If he's as easy and overpowered as you claim him to be, it should be much higher than that no?  According to these stats, I'm surprised you aren't complaining about Ursa or Skeleton King instead.

http://stats.dota2.be/herostats

Quote
I dare you to find more than a couple examples of that happening. And poker has mechanics built around the high risk-reward philosophy. :3
Sure, I see it all the time.  Spider often contributes only a mediocre amount to her team.  Even if she doesn't contribute much in team battles (due to lackluster farm), she contributes by pushing lanes really well, and offering a 40% slow and attack miss debuff to one opponent. 

Quote
They're targeting the actual playerbase, not the top <10% (probably closer to 1% but I'm being generous).
Well it makes sense that the bottom 99% percent should want to be more like the top 1%, than for the top 1%, to be more like the bottom 99% doesn't it?

When you balance from the top down, you're asking players to get better.  When you balance from the bottom up, you're asking the best players to get worse.  This seems like an obvious choice to me.

Quote
...This makes me want to try Furion. Off I go!
Good luck.  If anything, you'll get stomped, because Furion is not your weakness, some other hero is.  Every player has that hero in DotA, the one that they find disgustingly OP, that they want to quit playing for.  It's usually a different hero as well.

Quote
Maybe if I played battlefury carries more often, I could sit and afk farm treants for a half hour, and I might find it nice. But I usually dont play battlefury carries, so I usually dont have an amazing means to clear massed treants+creeps. I would even go as far as saying I dont usually play carries at all, making clearing masses of trees very difficult. You cant reasonably expect your battlefury carry to be able to be in as many lanes as furion can. Unless you have a phantom lancer who is good at farming all three lanes an the jungle with radiance, at least.
Well carries aren't really the counter to Furion, I meant that the carries can farm more easily because the lanes are always pushed.  They rely on the rest of their team to prevent the towers from dying so they can continue farming.

It seems like you're missing an important role in DotA, probably because it doesn't exist in LoL.  In DotA you have all the normal roles - Carry, ganker, nuker, support, pusher, jungler, etc.

However, there's another very important role, Anti-Pusher, that is extremely important against heroes like Furion.  Anti-Pushers come in all shapes and sizes, but basically they have strong, spammable, AoE attacks that are good for clearing out creep waves quickly, to prevent towers from dying.

Here are some Anti-Pushers from every category:

Intelligence -
Lina
Puck
Windrunner
Shadow Shaman
Nature's Prophet
Tinker
Jakiro
Keeper of the Light (great anti-pusher, 500 damage huge aoe nuke that hits siege units :D om nom nom money)
Enigma
Necrolyte
Queen of Pain
Death Prophet
Pugna
Leshrac
Dark Seer

Strength -
Earthshaker (wonderful pick against Furion because his ultimate does more damage the more units there are.  If you blink in and ult an enemy team with Furion creeps it does batshit insane damage)
Tiny
Beastmaster
Alchemist
Brewmaster
Axe
Sand King
Tidehunter
Undying

Agility-
Juggernaught
Naga Siren
Luna
Shadow Fiend
Venomancer
Morphling

As you can see, Agility has the lowest number.  This is on purpose, your carry shouldn't be able to do everything.  A carry relies on his team to hold off the Furion waves until they can get farmed. 
Which brings me to my next point, one of the best counter to Furion is picking no carries at all.  Furion relies on pushing the game and ending it before your hard carries get farmed enough to make a difference.  If you pick a team full of a lot of pushers, anti-pushers, and gankers, you diminish his value and advantage by quite a lot.

Heroes that counter Furion specifically:

STR
Tiny - he's so squishy, kill him instantly with your combo
Earthshaker - the more enemies, the merrier
Huskar - catch him alone, kill him before he can even escape
Wisp - "Oh, you can travel anywhere over the map?  That's cool."
Pudge - GET OVERRRR HEREEEE
Slardar - with plenty of stuns and permanent visibility, it's hard for him to get away
Doombringer - Doom prevents him from escaping since he's silenced and taking massive damage.

AGI
Chaos Knight - Kill him before he escapes.
Anti-Mage - burn all his mana = useless.
Riki - Smoke Cloud means he can't teleport away.
Naga Siren - two skills that cancel his teleport, and you can kill him very quickly.
Bloodseeker - Rupture prevents him from running, Silence prevents him from escaping.
Nyx Assassin - kill him instantly.

INT
Windrunner - hilarious counter.  Windrunner shackles heroes to trees. Furion is usually surrounded by...trees.
Shadow Shaman - great anti pusher, can ward trap Furion with his ult, and has two ways to disable him for a long period of time so he can't escape.
Lion - Kill him quickly, 2 disables to prevent him from escaping.
Witch Doctor - even if he does escape, he dies from the DoT.
Bat Rider - He likes to be by your towers all the time? Great, pull him into one.

Cheap items that counter Furion -


Force Staff - stops him from teleporting, pushes him out of his own trees.
Eul's Scepter (Cyclone Stick) - stops him from teleporting, gives your team time to position around him.
Dagon - He's squishy, just kill him.

Regardless of who you pick against Furion, just make sure you, and your team, are always carrying ample teleport scrolls to defend the towers.  If you catch him pushing alone (he does often), take the hero you picked to kill him, and teleport to that lane.  He's relatively slow so you should be able to catch him.  If you kill him, hooray for you, if you don't, just take all the farm he's left you.  Trees are delicious :D
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Hearteater on August 15, 2012, 11:35:16 AM
Quote
When you balance from the top down, you're asking players to get better.  When you balance from the bottom up, you're asking the best players to get worse.  This seems like an obvious choice to me.
You are making the assumption that there are only two methods.  And further, you've assumed Riot is using "Bottom Up Balance" and DOTA2 is using "Top Down Balance".  In actuality, Riot is using "Equal Balance, Top and Bottom".  That means mechanics that cannot be balanced in both areas are not added except in the rare case that the champion has a counter mechanic that works in reverse.  Strategic Stealth (what Eve has now) is an example of a mechanic that is stronger against pros than new players, because new players don't have the map awareness to be looking at the map anyway and so aren't really affected by stealth as much.  But for pros, that information denial is much more powerful.  As a result, Eve's kit can get abilities that work a bit better against new players because her stealth isn't benefiting her as much there.  The question of whether they've done this successfully for Eve is still unanswered, but early indicators are she's still too weak.

Meanwhile, DOTA2 uses "Balance Through Obscurity".  There are so many moving parts to DOTA2, and so much is out of balance that every game contains huge swings of imbalanced interactions for both sides.  Any example I could bring up of some unbalanced ability/item/hero can be countered by some other unbalanced thing.  Games are won be the team that exploits their mechanics the best.  No team can find the ultimate exploits because the game gets patched and new heroes added constantly.  Basically, everything's broken, and there is so much stuff, that the game remains playable.  It isn't a particular ideal method of balancing things, it is more the method used by a lot of mods and a few indies.  Given DOTA2's origins, it almost needs to go this route if it wants to retain a lot of the stuff from DOTA1.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on August 15, 2012, 11:52:44 AM
Quote
Strategic Stealth (what Eve has now) is an example of a mechanic that is stronger against pros than new players, because new players don't have the map awareness to be looking at the map anyway and so aren't really affected by stealth as much.  But for pros, that information denial is much more powerful.  As a result, Eve's kit can get abilities that work a bit better against new players because her stealth isn't benefiting her as much there.  The question of whether they've done this successfully for Eve is still unanswered, but early indicators are she's still too weak.
Well let me know how that turns out.  It seems to me that if a hero can be handled by bad or mediocre players, it wouldn't be a problem for pro players either; which is why I don't understand your assertion that you can balance for both top-level and low-level play at the same time.

Quote
Meanwhile, DOTA2 uses "Balance Through Obscurity".  There are so many moving parts to DOTA2, and so much is out of balance that every game contains huge swings of imbalanced interactions for both sides.  Any example I could bring up of some unbalanced ability/item/hero can be countered by some other unbalanced thing.
Wait a minute, if everything is imbalanced, wouldn't that make everything balanced?

This spiel sounds nice, but I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.  If you can bring up some examples of things that are outrageously imbalanced, countered by other outrageously imbalanced mechanics, maybe we could have a discussion about that.

Quote
Games are won be the team that exploits their mechanics the best.
Games are won by the team that uses current game mechanics the best?  Well isn't that the way it should be?

Quote
No team can find the ultimate exploits because the game gets patched and new heroes added constantly.
What?  DotA 1 gets patched every 6 months or so.  New heroes are only added every 6 months or so.

League of Legends is the game that is constantly patching and adding new heroes...

If you're talking about DotA 2, they have a new patch every week because they're trying to get all the DotA 1 content into the game, not because they're addressing major imbalance concerns.  None of these content patches address balance issues at all.  Once all the DotA 1 content is ported, I'm sure the patching will slow down significantly. 

If you want to talk about a game that constantly has to patch imbalances and add new heroes, you should be looking at your own.

Quote
Basically, everything's broken, and there is so much stuff, that the game remains playable.
Define "broken".  Your entire argument seems to hinge around that fact that everything is "broken", so it's all "fixed", or something like that.  I really don't understand what you're trying to say.  If everything is broken, then how does it all work together so smoothly?  You would expect a broken machine to break down, not perform well.

I wish you could explain a little better what you're trying to say.  Maybe you could give some examples of incredibly broken things in the game, which are countered by other incredibly broken things.  None of this seems to make much sense to me.

Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Hearteater on August 15, 2012, 12:15:01 PM
I see no reason to explain further when you aren't interested in explanation.  You just want to argue.  I'm not going to get into a nitpicking game of DOTA2 abilities, heroes and items, because I could not care less about that game.  It is badly balanced.  It isn't even a question.  It violates a slew of good game design principles.  It does this because DOTA1 was a mod, and a very good one, that wasn't a professionally developed game.  DOTA2 is a port, and so it inherits the same issues.  Will that change in the future?  I have no idea.  But trying to claim it either well designed or well balanced is silly.  But if you truly aren't just trolling, consider why the below statement of yours is incorrect.  That'll put you on the right track.
Quote
Wait a minute, if everything is imbalanced, wouldn't that make everything balanced?
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on August 15, 2012, 12:33:52 PM
Quote
I see no reason to explain further when you aren't interested in explanation.  You just want to argue.  I'm not going to get into a nitpicking game of DOTA2 abilities, heroes and items, because I could not care less about that game.
Honestly, I'm not trying to be obtuse here.  You seem to have a very good understanding of why all the mechanics in DotA 2 are broken, but you haven't given a single example.  I don't understand where you're coming from, and you accuse me of wanting to argue when I ask for a better explanation?

Quote
It is badly balanced.  It isn't even a question.  It violates a slew of good game design principles.  It does this because DOTA1 was a mod, and a very good one, that wasn't a professionally developed game.
I mean this quote just seems to illustrate your closed-mindedness on the issue.  Even I am willing to admit I could be wrong about LoL (I think I've been corrected quite a few times throughout this thread :P).  I would never say, "This game sucks, it isn't even a question".  I don't even think LoL's balance is particularly bad, I just think it's a very boring and uninteresting way of doing things.  I mean Checkers is balanced right?  But I wouldn't want to play that either...

Who decides what are good game design principles?  DotA 1 had a huge following of over 10 million players.  I suspect that DotA 2 will be at least as popular, probably more.  Just because the game design principles don't cater to the player, but ask the player to adapt to the game, doesn't mean they are bad principles.  Personally, I love those kinds of mechanics, because they are so rare anymore.  Look at the market nowadays, it's saturated with games that are super-easy and cater to the players.

Whatever happened to the old games that kicked your ass over and over and you loved them for it?  Megaman didn't care if you were an old man with Parkinson's, it's going to kick your ass anyway.  Doom didn't care if you had beaten the entire level after restarting 15 times, some levels had a fatal trap at the end just for the hell of it.  I think these new style of "kiddie" "casual" games have ruined the game industry.  Game design hasn't gotten better, it's gotten softer.  We now cater to the casual audience, and games these days are much worse because of it.

DotA 2 isn't made for a casual audience, and that's what makes it unique in today's gaming world.  It asks the players to get better, it doesn't come down to their level.  In today's politically-correct, the-customer-is-always-right, money-first world, I HIGHLY respect that.  I respect that both DotA 1 and DotA 2 have put the quality of the game before doing what's most financially beneficial to the developers.  I like how all the content for both games has been completely free from the very start.  Very few games can say the same thing. I like how all players start out on an equal footing, and that winning the game comes from outsmarting your opponents, playing well, and working with your team, not buying champions, unlocking runes and masteries to have an advantage over your opponent.

To me it seems obvious that money is always Riot's first priority, and everything comes secondary to that.  I think they balance for the largest group of players, not because it's in the best interest of the game, but because it's in the best interest of themselves.  No competitive sport in the entire world changes its rules for the worst players who play that sport, and it would be ridiculous to do so.  You balance for the best players, and ask everyone else to get better.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: chemical_art on August 15, 2012, 12:48:48 PM
You say others are closed minded, but anything riot does, good or bad, to you will always be about money.

Erm.

You can cling to DotA 2 because it is hard, it makes you feel special to be elite, etc. But those are neutral things. There was a reason those early games were hard in the were they were. Seeing how these games are not around today in the same extent they were then, it shows actually a large number of people did not prefer them, but rather played them because there was not another option. A casual game is no more right or wrong then a MOBA game or RTS game or FPS. They are different.

Just because something you don't like is popular does not make it bad. It does not make it good either. It is neutral. Just like games that kick your bum isn't bad or good. That, too, is neutral.

To follow your logic, AI War should not have difficulties below 8.6. "Kiddies" or "Casuals" not allowed on the fun.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on August 15, 2012, 01:03:10 PM
No, that's a caricature of what I'm saying.  I think there are good reasons to think Riot's game design is focused around how to make the most money first, how to improve the game second.

To give an example, LoL has probably 25x the players of DotA 2 (its in beta) + HoN combined, yet both HoN and DotA 2 have unlocked all of the content of their game for free, and are relying on COSMETIC ONLY micro-transactions to sustain them.  It's working out great so far.

League of Legends, with a MUCH larger playerbase, only unlocks a fraction (maybe 5%) of the content to the starting player, and asks them to either play for more, or pay for more.  You could never possibly unlock all the content by playing (it would take tens of thousands of hours, and with new content constantly being released).  So if you want to have ALL the playable content (incuding all champions, runes, and rune pages), you would have to pay money at some point.

I know their model would still work even if everything they sold was only cosmetic, but they wouldn't be making nearly as much money.

In addition, they release new champions straight into the game, often in a fairly unbalanced state, right into competitive play.  I don't know what better example you need of a wanton disregard for the state of the competitive aspect of the game. 

DotA waits 6 months or so before releasing a small number of heroes, and only after months of design and testing, which is why their quality is usually so much better, and why they don't have to be constantly remake heroes like they do in LoL.  After these heroes are released to the public, it's another few months before they released into competitive play.  They give all the teams ample opportunity to use said hero(s), find great team comps with them in it, and ideal counters if they are used by the opponent.

That's much better than saying, "Well, here's a new champion that completely changes the game right before a big tournament.  Good luck!"

Riot makes, god only knows how much money from players when they release a new hero every few weeks.  People love having content that nobody else has, or hasn't gotten enough IP to unlock yet.

In other words, I don't think Riot focuses on money first because I hate them, it's because there's so much evidence to support that theory.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Hearteater on August 15, 2012, 01:10:13 PM
I didn't say DOTA2 sucks.  I said it is badly balanced, and violates a slew of good game design principles.  It can still be a great game while making those mistakes.  It just isn't as likely.  And game design principles aren't random opinions.  The field of game design has matured into a much more organized and introspective field that has learned a ton about how to make better content.  This is why a lot of indie games have a "feel" to them.  They haven't been as professionally worked over.  But some people really like indie games for that raw feel.  Which is why violating game design principles doesn't make your game suck.  It just makes it more likely to suck.  But DOTA2 is using a proven non-sucky pattern in DOTA1 to avoid that pitfall.  To some people, that will be appealing.  But to the huge video gaming audience, a more professional game design is more appealing, and that is why DOTA2 will ultimately need to change or deal with living in LoL's shadow.  Before LoL, DOTA1 was the only option.  Once DOTA2 has to compete with a more main-stream game, it'll lose a large portion of its audience.  It doesn't help that LoL has such a huge head start.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: chemical_art on August 15, 2012, 01:19:17 PM
So despite LoL having a fraction of the game enabled, it has a much larger audience despite DotA being around earlier.

I wonder why?

It could because LoL is simply much more friendly to new players.

For new players there is no need for runes or skill pages. Not until one has played like 20 hours into the game does these things matter. LoL does not for free enable all the units at once. They enable a select group with a few newbie friendly characters, a relatively new unit, and a mix of units for different roles.

These things might sound appalling to the DotA audience who want everything out the door, but for new players this is what they want. They want to be broken in gradually. It is for this reason the vast majority of games do not give all the players the options at once. So for AVWW you don't get all the spells at once, for RTS games in campaigns you don't get all the units at once. Yes, there are other reasons in the illustrations above, but one role of this is to not overwhelm the player at the very beginning.

LoL encourages players to sample a a number of units with free, and when they find a unit they like they can buy it from the store with money earned from playing. This, too, is good for new players. With a gurrenteed character, they are encouraged to learn that character well. Again, this might be thought bad for DotA 2, but for LoL it works, and the large numbers of LoL proves it.

Money can be bad, but it is not the end of the world, either. For LoL there are a dozen characters that can be unlocked within 5 games of play. These characters are newbie friendly and are not weak for anything short of competitive play, and even then some can shine.

So you can debate whether LoL or DotA 2 is better in the competitive scene. However, for those of us who just want to play with others who don't spend their gaming lives playing one game, LoL is much more friendly from start to end.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: RCIX on August 15, 2012, 01:20:06 PM
These two sentences contradict each other.

Riot would never add a mechanic that disables an entire enemy team, even if it is easily preventable by staying apart, or picking hard counters (like Silencer) to prevent it from anywhere on the map.  Yet you said yourself, there's a feeling of accomplishment for landing the black hole.  And if your whole team gets hit by it, you feel like you deserved it.

No, it doesn't actually. And Riot did add wide AoE disables. In fact, several. Amumu's ult, Galio's ult, Malphite's ult, Orianna's ult (though that's best tacked on to a good melee initiator champion thanks to the ball mechanics), Nautilus ult.



I'll bet you cash that there's someone out there right now that thinks black hole is the most retarded skill in the game, but that has absolutely no problem with Furion.  That is what I love about DotA, it doesn't care about you and what you want.  It will find your weaknesses as a player, and as a person, and it will exploit the hell out of them until you want to break your keyboard.  The weaker players will quit, and blame the game for being unfair or unbalanced, but the stronger players will stay, and grow, and learn to stop blaming the game and strengthen their own weaknesses.
So wait a minute, this is a desirable thing in my entertainment... how?



I can't even remember, throughout these 9 years, how many times this game has made me scream and hate myself for making the smallest mistake; how many times I've considered quitting because of the ridiculous losing scenarios, how many times I've cursed the designers for their horrible balancing methods (though this was primarily S2, because S2 balance != balance).  But I can tell you, without a doubt, that it has made me a better person; not just in DotA, but in life as well.  Everytime I lost a game, this hatred swelled up within me, and I wanted to blame my team, my hero, IceFrog, and everyone else, but deep down inside, I knew that some of the blame belonged to me too.  I used to be one of those hateful ragers that everybody talks about, I would slam my teammates for making mistakes, and be an asshole just because I wanted to win so bad.  To me, DotA is a lot like life.  It doesn't care about you, it doesn't care about what you want.  It's going to beat you down, over, and over, and over again.  Then, it's going to kick you while you're down.  And laugh while it's kicking you.  But everytime you get back up, you'll be a little stronger.  Everytime you get defeated, you will have taken something profound with you.  You can't expect life to change to cater to you, you have to conquer life, that's the only you'll ever be successful.
There are various mechanics I dislike in League as well (I've come to the conclusion that what I'm looking for exactly doesn't exist, and am stuck with League for now at least). And yes, I realize I make mistakes. I don't stress them because hey, it's a game and I'm trying to have fun and I bet everyone else is too. But does that make the game design for me, as a solo player any better? No, no it doesn't. It sucks that I can't carry because my allies fed. It sucks that the only reason I lose my lane often is being counterpicked or junglers camping my lane. And it's not worth the extreme amount of effort I'd have to go through to even think about being able to man-mode through it anyway, if I could even learn how to do it. Because it's a game, I'm here to have fun, and These. Things. Are. Not. Fun. Period.

I won't push this off into a philosophy discussion, but I am of the opinion that life isn't fair by and large because no one bothers to make it fair for anyone else. Consider this my only comment on the topic, since that's a far more murky and divisive subject than even the most heated MOBA debate. :P



Just like you get a feeling of accomplishment from catching 5 players with a black hole, so too will you get a sense of accomplishment when you finally understand how to counter Furion; what heroes to pick, what heroes to ask your team to pick (they will listen), and how to play every game.  If you stick with it long enough, you'll realize that it wasn't Furion that was the problem, it was you.  It wasn't the spoon that bent, but yourself ;p
And I can usually slam shaco into the ground now when he tries to gank, since he's basically relying on his autoattack and the fear from when he could actually stompgank at this point. I still hate his design. Why? In order to be a balanced character at high ELO, he'd have to ruin games at low ELO ones and in oder to be a balanced character at low ELO ones he has to be worthless if anyone has a clue. I don't know any other way to say or explain that leaving a champion like that strong is bad design, lazy design, and a sign of not caring about most of your playerbase.

(Ironically I understand both sides of the coin, having played Fizz and Darius extensively; both hated for their "noob friendly mechanics")

Quote
I see no reason to explain further when you aren't interested in explanation.  You just want to argue.  I'm not going to get into a nitpicking game of DOTA2 abilities, heroes and items, because I could not care less about that game.
Honestly, I'm not trying to be obtuse here.  You seem to have a very good understanding of why all the mechanics in DotA 2 are broken, but you haven't given a single example.  I don't understand where you're coming from, and you accuse me of wanting to argue when I ask for a better explanation?
Well yeah, Hearteater isn't exactly being fair. You have shown bias, but at least you're still willing to listen and consider the other side, unlike most people who'd have ragequit around page 2 ;p



Quote
It is badly balanced.  It isn't even a question.  It violates a slew of good game design principles.  It does this because DOTA1 was a mod, and a very good one, that wasn't a professionally developed game.
I mean this quote just seems to illustrate your closed-mindedness on the issue.  Even I am willing to admit I could be wrong about LoL (I think I've been corrected quite a few times throughout this thread :P).  I would never say, "This game sucks, it isn't even a question".  I don't even think LoL's balance is particularly bad, I just think it's a very boring and uninteresting way of doing things.  I mean Checkers is balanced right?  But I wouldn't want to play that either...
That last sentence, ironically, fits Dota well (and is basically what I said previously).

A great example is Dazzle and his ult. He's probably perfectly balanced in competitive play, right? Maybe even underpowered? The things you can pull off with Tryndamere's ult is utter BS; having a targetable one on a 15 second cooldown is that much more so. Granted, the sheer quantity of CC counterbalances this to an extent, but it's still to the point where his ult is basically W and he has 3 other lame (or low-visbility for their power anyway) skills, and is probably used poorly in normal pubs (save the occasional Dazzle duoing with some carry and making him impossible to kill, which is the exact design problem).

Whatever happened to the old games that kicked your ass over and over and you loved them for it?  Megaman didn't care if you were an old man with Parkinson's, it's going to kick your ass anyway.  Doom didn't care if you had beaten the entire level after restarting 15 times, some levels had a fatal trap at the end just for the hell of it.  I think these new style of "kiddie" "casual" games have ruined the game industry.  Game design hasn't gotten better, it's gotten softer.  We now cater to the casual audience, and games these days are much worse because of it.

DotA 2 isn't made for a casual audience, and that's what makes it unique in today's gaming world.  It asks the players to get better, it doesn't come down to their level.  In today's politically-correct, the-customer-is-always-right, money-first world, I HIGHLY respect that.  I respect that both DotA 1 and DotA 2 have put the quality of the game before doing what's most financially beneficial to the developers.  I like how all the content for both games has been completely free from the very start.  Very few games can say the same thing. I like how all players start out on an equal footing, and that winning the game comes from outsmarting your opponents, playing well, and working with your team, not buying champions, unlocking runes and masteries to have an advantage over your opponent.
In my opinion, life is already hard enough and you don't need your entertainment beating you over the head on top of it. In any case, I'm not looking for that, I'm looking for a fun time.

To me it seems obvious that money is always Riot's first priority, and everything comes secondary to that.  I think they balance for the largest group of players, not because it's in the best interest of the game, but because it's in the best interest of themselves.  No competitive sport in the entire world changes its rules for the worst players who play that sport, and it would be ridiculous to do so.  You balance for the best players, and ask everyone else to get better.
And to me, it seems obvious that giving a middle finger to anyone but pros in Dota is always Icefrog's first priority, and everything comes second to that. To be quite frank, I honestly don't understand the philosophy you list above. No other highly successful entertainment system snubs the vast majority of it's audience, and it would be ridiculous to do so. You design so everyone has fun, and ask the pros to work with that.

Yes, that was a parody of your section :P

(And the "riot only does it for money" argument is very old. Yes, technically you could argue that most of what Riot does is for money and have some sort of argument, but that's ignoring the "feel" behind riot posts, as well as all the free stuff they're giving out. SR visual rework, champion reworks at no cost (visual and gameplay), free candy in the form of IP boosts or more whenever they screw up and sometimes when they don't, randomly handing out a boatload of RP to basically everyone last year, ...)
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: chemical_art on August 15, 2012, 01:45:40 PM
[Prepare your sarcasm shades]

Arcen charges for full access to their games, while Riot allows gamers to play their game for free and allows the potential to get everything with enough game play.

Since you cannot get full access to Arcen games without playing, and since Riot is obviously in it for the money, then therefore Arcen must be even more into the money then Riot!

[It's a joke, ok?]
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 15, 2012, 02:43:06 PM
If we weren't going for your money, you wouldn't have gotten as much value for it!

Oh, wait... *causation loop detonates*
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on August 15, 2012, 03:08:41 PM
Quote
So despite LoL having a fraction of the game enabled, it has a much larger audience despite DotA being around earlier.

I wonder why?

It could because LoL is simply much more friendly to new players.
Well, because it caters to a casual audience.  Certainly you're not suggesting that McDonald's is a good restaraunt, Justin Bieber is a good artist, and Call Me Maybe is a good song just because they all have a lot of fans?

Besides, DotA 1 had more players than LoL for a long time, but the engine is really outdated, and is based on an entirely different game (Warcraft 3).  I mean the LoL engine is bad, but it's not that bad.

Quote
These things might sound appalling to the DotA audience who want everything out the door, but for new players this is what they want. They want to be broken in gradually. It is for this reason the vast majority of games do not give all the players the options at once. So for AVWW you don't get all the spells at once, for RTS games in campaigns you don't get all the units at once. Yes, there are other reasons in the illustrations above, but one role of this is to not overwhelm the player at the very beginning.
Well yes, if I'm going to play a competitive game, I want all my options from the start.

Starcraft 2 would be a horrible game if you had to "work" to unlock the units in multiplayer.

In DotA 2, you're welcome to ONLY use the noob-friendly heroes if you want (it tells you which ones are on the wiki and in the game), and play against easy bots, but that's up to you.  DotA 2 offers a lot more freedom to the player.  I'll take freedom over having my hand held anyday, especially since having my hand held by a guy who really just wants my money.

Quote
So you can debate whether LoL or DotA 2 is better in the competitive scene. However, for those of us who just want to play with others who don't spend their gaming lives playing one game, LoL is much more friendly from start to end.
Well yeah, it's definitely more friendly than DotA 2, there's no argument there.  But so is My Little Pony :D

Quote
No, it doesn't actually. And Riot did add wide AoE disables. In fact, several. Amumu's ult, Galio's ult, Malphite's ult, Orianna's ult (though that's best tacked on to a good melee initiator champion thanks to the ball mechanics), Nautilus ult.
I'm not talking about "wide AoE disables", I'm talking about a 4 second stun.

You can cleanse out of everything you just listed (except for Malphite's ult which he charges to, giving you plenty of time to walk out of the way). 

Riot would never add a 4 second large AoE disable that couldn't be cleansed, QSSed, reduced by Mercury Treads, or whatever else.  There's much less satisfaction landing these ults because the enemy team can get out of them anyway. 

Quote
That last sentence, ironically, fits Dota well (and is basically what I said previously).
How is DotA like Checkers?  We've got 3 other people complaining about how imbalanced and frantic the game is, and you're now comparing it to Checkers?

Quote
No other highly successful entertainment system snubs the vast majority of it's audience, and it would be ridiculous to do so. You design so everyone has fun, and ask the pros to work with that.
Professional Sports - your argument is invalid.  They are highly successful forms of entertainment that don't change the rules to fit mediocre players.  As far as I know, the rules are the same for any level of player, and they are designed for the best players.

What's a form of entertainment that caters to the casuals?  Hello Kitty Online, Farmville, and World of Warcraft.

@Chemical_Art - I know it was just a joke, but it was still a really bad comparison.

These MOBA games have literally thousands of times the audience Arcen gets.  If AI War had 5 million players, they could afford to give it away for free and sell new ship models with microtransactions couldn't they?
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: RCIX on August 15, 2012, 03:08:59 PM
If we weren't going for your money, you wouldn't have gotten as much value for it!

Oh, wait... *causation loop detonates*
That is totally sig-worthy. *sigs*
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: RCIX on August 15, 2012, 09:51:48 PM
Quote
So despite LoL having a fraction of the game enabled, it has a much larger audience despite DotA being around earlier.

I wonder why?

It could because LoL is simply much more friendly to new players.
Well, because it caters to a casual audience.  Certainly you're not suggesting that McDonald's is a good restaraunt, Justin Bieber is a good artist, and Call Me Maybe is a good song just because they all have a lot of fans?

Besides, DotA 1 had more players than LoL for a long time, but the engine is really outdated, and is based on an entirely different game (Warcraft 3).  I mean the LoL engine is bad, but it's not that bad.
I think McDonalds is not bad for a meal now and then (...horrible if you like eat there 30 days straight, for 2+ meals a day and snacks), Justin Beiber has a few okay songs, and Call Me Maybe is pretty good actually. But then I like some of almost everything (country, rap, and metal are notably the genres I'm choosy about).

*cowers* don't taze me bro!

(I also have the theory that people are often too arbitrarily picky in what they like/don't like)


Quote
No, it doesn't actually. And Riot did add wide AoE disables. In fact, several. Amumu's ult, Galio's ult, Malphite's ult, Orianna's ult (though that's best tacked on to a good melee initiator champion thanks to the ball mechanics), Nautilus ult.
I'm not talking about "wide AoE disables", I'm talking about a 4 second stun.

You can cleanse out of everything you just listed (except for Malphite's ult which he charges to, giving you plenty of time to walk out of the way). 

Riot would never add a 4 second large AoE disable that couldn't be cleansed, QSSed, reduced by Mercury Treads, or whatever else.  There's much less satisfaction landing these ults because the enemy team can get out of them anyway. 
How is it fun to be CCed for a duration long enough to have a carry eat your entire team alive, with nothing you can do about it? Oh, thats right, you get to beat yourself over the head because it was ALL YOUR FAULT!!!

Also, Naut ult can't be cleansed off (and knockups dont get reduced etc), Orianna's ult is AoE pull and you thus can't cleanse/reduce it, Galio's taunt still does damage if you cleanse it...

Quote
That last sentence, ironically, fits Dota well (and is basically what I said previously).
How is DotA like Checkers?  We've got 3 other people complaining about how imbalanced and frantic the game is, and you're now comparing it to Checkers?
You've argued that Dota is just fine and well balanced (and I would tend to agree with you, as one whole big block, Dota is balanced). The design breaks so many rules and has so much fun-sucking mechanics in it that I would never want to play it seriously.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Lancefighter on August 15, 2012, 10:09:00 PM
I'm talking more 2010 aoe meta style - Pre orianna, naut.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 16, 2012, 05:07:20 AM
I also own starcraft 2 (indirectly, it got me hooked on MOBAs actually), and I dislike the main game because it was a "strategy" game but it had so much emphasis on telling your units how to do everything but breathe that I never could concentrate on the strategy parts. Oh, and zerg rushes. I hate those.
THIS is why I don't play RTSs other than Supreme Commander:FA. SO sick of the micro-focus and ability use. I point where you go, you do the rest. Let me handle the overall strategy, and the units handle the actual fighting. I'm also no fan of the "balanced" approach to modern RTSs where units have heaptons of health and counters. I prefer the "realistic" approach where a bomber can absolutely devastate a base, but is made of tinfoil unless escorted by fighters, or AA is taken out before hand.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Diazo on August 16, 2012, 12:42:09 PM
Okay.

As interesting as this is, why should I play DotA2?

I have never played DotA1, or any other MOBA, except for LoL.

I consider myself a little above average in terms of skill for an experienced player in LoL.

Everything I'm reading is making me want to not install DotA2.

A game is something that is supposed to be fun that I can pick up with a minor learning curve and do reasonably well at.

In LoL I can pick a champion I've never played before and lane against a new champion I have never seen before and not suck.

I won't be the reason my team wins the game or anything but I can pick up a new champion cold and not lose my team the game.

From what I'm hearing in this thread you need to spend a good chunk of time on the wiki and play games with bots who don't fight back before you even think about picking a champion in DotA, and then if the other team has a champion you don't know the skills for you are dead anyway.

How is this fun for someone who does not know every detail of the game off the top of their head who as a new player does not know 3 of the champions on the enemy team?

Yes, a game does need that deep, skillful play to stay relevant and have any sort of longevity but the entry barrier to DotA is sounding so high I don't even want to try it.

So, why should I install DotA2?

D.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 16, 2012, 12:48:21 PM
So, why should I install DotA2?
Given the background you provided, I don't think anyone in this thread is arguing that you should :)

Same would go for me.

Except perhaps that it's interesting enough to install and give a whirl, just don't plan on getting seriously into it.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: zebramatt on August 16, 2012, 12:50:09 PM
The way you feel about DOTA2 is exactly the way I feel about LoL (and every MOBA).
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 16, 2012, 12:52:28 PM
The way you feel about DOTA2 is exactly the way I feel about LoL (and every MOBA).
League's worth a whirl, it's easy to get into and you can just play you + four bots vs five bots and they're capable enough to make it fun for a while.  Doesn't take long to get good enough to school the bots repeatedly but the ride there is one of the more "just plain fun" gaming experiences I've had in the last year.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on August 16, 2012, 02:06:09 PM
Okay.

As interesting as this is, why should I play DotA2?

I have never played DotA1, or any other MOBA, except for LoL.

I consider myself a little above average in terms of skill for an experienced player in LoL.

Everything I'm reading is making me want to not install DotA2.

A game is something that is supposed to be fun that I can pick up with a minor learning curve and do reasonably well at.

In LoL I can pick a champion I've never played before and lane against a new champion I have never seen before and not suck.

I won't be the reason my team wins the game or anything but I can pick up a new champion cold and not lose my team the game.

From what I'm hearing in this thread you need to spend a good chunk of time on the wiki and play games with bots who don't fight back before you even think about picking a champion in DotA, and then if the other team has a champion you don't know the skills for you are dead anyway.

How is this fun for someone who does not know every detail of the game off the top of their head who as a new player does not know 3 of the champions on the enemy team?

Yes, a game does need that deep, skillful play to stay relevant and have any sort of longevity but the entry barrier to DotA is sounding so high I don't even want to try it.

So, why should I install DotA2?

D.
Choosing what video game you play is also choosing how you spend your life. 

Games are used for relaxation and stressed relief, as well as entertainment, but why can't you improve yourself as a person as well while you're playing?

I believe in always trying to improve myself, regardless of where I am or what I'm doing.  To this end, you'll never find me at a party, drinking alcohol, taking drugs, attending bars, having sex with random people, or any of the other wasteful things people my age tend to do with their lives for whatever reason.

You'll also never find me playing video games that don't challenge me, push me to my limits, and make me constantly improve my critical thinking and strategical skills.

I don't believe that entertainment should be about escaping your problems or escaping your own world.  If your world sucks enough that you need to escape it, you should probably take a break from video games, and deal with real life first.

When I play LoL, I don't feel like I'm challenging myself.  I don't feel like I'm improving in a meaningful way.  The cartoony graphics and oversimplified gameplay makes me feel like I'm playing a game designed for kids.  The fact that 90% of the female characters have huge breasts, skimpy clothes, and a seductive pose makes me feel like the target audience are hormonal teenage virgins who can't get any.

If you play video games to escape from life, don't mind playing a game designed for children, or don't care about constantly improving yourself as a person, then League of Legends is the game for you.  I see little difference between the kind of person who plays League of Legends regularly, and the kind of person who plays World of Warcraft or Farmville.  These are very grindy, mindless games.  If that's your thing, then really, I have no intent on taking that away from you.

I play DotA because it's much more challenging than League of Legends.  The skill cap is much higher.  The possibility for epic individual plays and moments is much higher.  The game is more about strategy and thinking outside the box, and less about doing the same thing better.  There's the freedom of having the entire game unlocked to you, and nobody has an unfair advantage over you just because they've paid or played more.  It's MUCH more exciting to watch (even most of the people in this thread have agreed about that).  And, as we have seen many times in this thread, it takes all of the game-design principle norms that have (in my opinion) ruined the gaming world, and throws them out the window, flipping a huge middle finger to the shitty formulaic developers like EA and their idiotic fanbase.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-LE0ycgkBQ

So you ask why you should play DotA 2?  You shouldn't.  If you have to ask why you should play the game with more strategy, more skill, and more freedom to the player, then you have no business playing it.

I play it because it challenges me, pushes me to my limit, and has made me a better person over these 9 years by teaching me the importance of teamwork, dealing with my anger, and taking responsibility for my own mistakes.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 16, 2012, 02:08:06 PM
@Wingflier: does Dota2 not have the skimpy clothing problem?  League's having that problem is the main reason I quit League.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on August 16, 2012, 02:12:36 PM
Well, it's hard to find a picture of these characters' bodies, because their profile pictures just show their face.  They don't dehumanize and objectify them by having to always include their huge boobs.

I'll try to find official full body pictures if I can, but from what I've seen, most DotA 2 female characters are modestly dressed.

(http://www.dota2wiki.com/images/1/10/Crystal_Maiden.png)
(http://www.dota2wiki.com/images/e/e2/Windrunner.png)
(http://www.dota2wiki.com/images/e/ec/Lina.png)
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 16, 2012, 02:16:27 PM
Cool, thanks :)  The full shots don't really matter to me as long as they're not encountered in the normal process of starting and running the game.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on August 16, 2012, 02:18:41 PM
Here are some in-game pictures.  They seem pretty tasteful to me, but you decide.


(http://i.imgur.com/RGeYs.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/hWIAR.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/3lDF1.jpg)
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 16, 2012, 02:41:45 PM
Not nearly so bad as league, at least :)

If I want to pick MOBA back up at some point I'll probably give DotA2 a try, at least to see if the bots are good for a fun match.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Diazo on August 16, 2012, 02:48:45 PM
I play DotA because it's much more challenging than League of Legends.  The skill cap is much higher.  The possibility for epic individual plays and moments is much higher.  The game is more about strategy and thinking outside the box, and less about doing the same thing better.  There's the freedom of having the entire game unlocked to you, and nobody has an unfair advantage over you just because they've paid or played more.  It's MUCH more exciting to watch (even most of the people in this thread have agreed about that).  And, as we have seen many times in this thread, it takes all of the game-design principle norms that have (in my opinion) ruined the gaming world, and throws them out the window, flipping a huge middle finger to the shitty formulaic developers like EA and their idiotic fanbase.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-LE0ycgkBQ

So you ask why you should play DotA 2?  You shouldn't.  If you have to ask why you should play the game with more strategy, more skill, and more freedom to the player, then you have no business playing it.

I play it because it challenges me, pushes me to my limit, and has made me a better person over these 9 years by teaching me the importance of teamwork, dealing with my anger, and taking responsibility for my own mistakes.

And it's things like this that make me both want to play and not to play DotA.

When stuff like "The possibility for epic individual plays and moments is much higher.  The game is more about strategy and thinking outside the box, " gets mentioned I go ohh, I want to play.

But then I'm being told you need to be pretty skilled to even have a chance of playing an average game. But I'm new to the game and about as far from skilled as you can get and I am not going to invest huge chunks of time to learn how to play a computer game skillfully, that sounds too much like work.

One of the reasons I keep coming back to LoL is the fact that I only play a couple of games a week usually so the fact that I can play against a new champion I have never seen before and not suck is a major positive for me.

The way DotA is being described is that because there is such a wide range of abilities that if you don't know all the champions, at least superficially, you are screwed. I refuse to invest that much time upfront before I can actually get into a game and pull my weight.

Take the perma-invis that was mentioned. If you don't know about the perm-invis that's almost a guaranteed win for the other team. Losing like that because you did not know something is not fun at all, losing a match where you can fight back is (or at least more) fun, even if you are at a disadvantage for not knowing the enemies skills inside-out.

So far it is sounding like DotA is a blast for experienced players but they have kind of forgotten that people new to the game who want to start playing are not experienced or skilled in any way.

Perhaps a better way to phrase my question:

I would (initially at least) be playing as a solo queue in random pug games. How much time (reading the wiki, playing games against bots, etc.) would I need to not suck?

I'm not talking about carrying my team or anything, but to get to the point where I am pulling my weight would be how long?

D.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on August 16, 2012, 02:59:08 PM
Well there are bots, which you can put on easy difficulties, just like League.  The bots usually pick from the same small group of heroes, so learning your opponent should be pretty easy.

You can queue for human vs. bot matches as well.  If you're worried about losing, I wouldn't be too concerned about that.  You can have fun while you learn the game, it just takes a lot longer than League to do so.

Quote
I would (initially at least) be playing as a solo queue in random pug games. How much time (reading the wiki, playing games against bots, etc.) would I need to not suck?
How long would it take for you to be decent outside of a bot game?  1 bot game every day for 3 months, 1 real game every day for 1 month (prepare to lose constantly), or several bot games a day for a month.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: RCIX on August 16, 2012, 03:05:16 PM
If you play video games to escape from life, don't mind playing a game designed for children, or don't care about constantly improving yourself as a person, then League of Legends is the game for you.  I see little difference between the kind of person who plays League of Legends regularly, and the kind of person who plays World of Warcraft or Farmville.  These are very grindy, mindless games.  If that's your thing, then really, I have no intent on taking that away from you.
I don't play league to "escape from life". I don't agree it's designed for children (just because YOU may think so doesn't make it true) and if you compare League to any other game out there save some of the crazier 4x games *cough*AI war*cough*, you'll see it's something to the effect of an order of magnitude more complex. And no, I don't care about "constantly improving myself as a person", and that's not a bad thing. I do spend a good deal of my time helping people out every day, and my job also involves that as well. So excuuuuse me if I'd like to relax on my off time.

Anyway, part of the point of the above was to show you how important tone is (and how hard it is to read over the internet (http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2006/02/70179)), and how poorly yours came across. Please try and make a better effort at it? :)

I would (initially at least) be playing as a solo queue in random pug games. How much time (reading the wiki, playing games against bots, etc.) would I need to not suck?

I'm not talking about carrying my team or anything, but to get to the point where I am pulling my weight would be how long?

D.
I started in a Dota knockoff for Starcraft, had about 20-30ish heroes. The initial time I spent learning what Dota is about, adapting to be able to visually filter and parse a battlefield, and building a basic database of what heroes did what took me, I'd estimate, 4-6 months of on-and-off play.  Once you get the major concepts (mechanics, skills, lasthitting, towers, etc.) then it's a much slower ambient climb of getting a battle sense and storing champion/item info.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on August 16, 2012, 03:55:05 PM
Quote
I don't agree it's designed for children (just because YOU may think so doesn't make it true) and if you compare League to any other game out there save some of the crazier 4x games *cough*AI war*cough*, you'll see it's something to the effect of an order of magnitude more complex.
I'll digress to your point that whether the game is designed for children is simply an opinion.

Though the cartoony graphics, characters straight out of a Disney movie like Annie and Teemo, abundance of huge-breasted young women, and WoW-based leveling system, all seem to be strong evidence in my favor :D

However, I will contest your point that LoL is "magnitudes" more complex than almost any other game out there.  DotA itself only piggybacked off of the Warcraft 3 hero mechanics.  In Warcraft 3, you're asked to control not 1 hero...but 3.  Three heroes, while building a base, scouting the map, buying new items, killing neutral camps, AND CONTROLLING AN ARMY.

DotA asks you to literally do 1/10th of what you do in Warcraft 3, and you're saying that it's more complex

LoL takes DotA, and simplifies it to an extreme degree, making it even easier and less complex than even DotA, which is already a massively simpler and less complex version of Warcraft 3.  LoL, as far as strategy games go (MOBA/ARTS games are based on the RTS genre after all), is very simple. 
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: RCIX on August 16, 2012, 04:05:16 PM
DotA asks you to literally do 1/10th of what you do in Warcraft 3, and you're saying that it's more complex

LoL takes DotA, and simplifies it to an extreme degree, making it even easier and less complex than even DotA, which is already a massively simpler and less complex version of Warcraft 3.  LoL, as far as strategy games go (MOBA/ARTS games are based on the RTS genre after all), is very simple.
I seriously doubt that stock Warcraft heroes have anywhere near the complexity in hero mechanics or fancy item stuff that DotA adds, never mind all of the map features. :P

Would you say Starcraft is a less complex strategy game because it has less focus on the "strategy" parts than C&C, which in turn has less focus on strategy over tactics than the SupCom series?
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: chemical_art on August 16, 2012, 04:12:28 PM


Though the cartoony graphics,

So movies like watership down , or games planetary annhilation or team fortress 2 are more child like because of their animation style?

characters straight out of a Disney movie like Annie and Teemo,

Watership Down is book/ movies about bunnies, yet none would say it is for anything short of teenagers.

 abundance of huge-breasted young women

If anything, that caters to any male except the very youngest.

and WoW-based leveling system

Why is that child like? Is it the xp system? Or the fact you get abilities as you level up? How is DotA 2 any different?

, all seem to be strong evidence in my favor :D

I understand your point. But none of it decisively proves it. I could argue that the needless swearing in DotA 2 is not meant to appeal to adults but to appear edgy and appeal to younger people. What matters is how the things are in the big picture. Or more specifically, how the pieces as a whole interact.

However, I will contest your point that LoL is "magnitudes" more complex than almost any other game out there.  DotA itself only piggybacked off of the Warcraft 3 hero mechanics.  In Warcraft 3, you're asked to control not 1 hero...but 3.  Three heroes, while building a base, scouting the map, buying new items, killing neutral camps, AND CONTROLLING AN ARMY.

So FPS shooter games, where you control one character and don't buy your items are also less complex still? I don't follow. LoL and DotA 2 are complex because as a PvP game the magnitude of player comps and item combinitions, in addition to precise keyboard and mouse interaction.

DotA asks you to literally do 1/10th of what you do in Warcraft 3, and you're saying that it's more complex

LoL takes DotA, and simplifies it to an extreme degree, making it even easier and less complex than even DotA, which is already a massively simpler and less complex version of Warcraft 3.  LoL, as far as strategy games go (MOBA/ARTS games are based on the RTS genre after all), is very simple.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Diazo on August 16, 2012, 04:55:38 PM
Quote
I would (initially at least) be playing as a solo queue in random pug games. How much time (reading the wiki, playing games against bots, etc.) would I need to not suck?
How long would it take for you to be decent outside of a bot game?  1 bot game every day for 3 months, 1 real game every day for 1 month (prepare to lose constantly), or several bot games a day for a month.

Ugh, nope. That puts the nail in the coffin.

I simply don't have the time to commit that long to a single game.

Does not matter how fun the game is if I never make it to the "I no longer suck" stage.

D.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on August 16, 2012, 05:13:11 PM
Quote
I seriously doubt that stock Warcraft heroes have anywhere near the complexity in hero mechanics or fancy item stuff that DotA adds
Maybe you missed the part where you have to control 3?  3 heroes by the way, that each have their own 6-sized item slot...So if you've having trouble using your 6 slots in DotA, think of how a professional WC3 player must feel.

Quote
never mind all of the map features. :P
What map features, exactly, make DotA more complicated?  Your "army" controls itself for you.  You play on the exact same map every time, where a WC3 players has to learn the layout of dozens of maps.  The shops are always in the same location, where in a WC3 map they're always in different locations, doing different things.  In DotA, the mercenary camps are pretty similar and predictible every time, where in WC3 they vary wildly every game, etc. etc.

Quote
Would you say Starcraft is a less complex strategy game because it has less focus on the "strategy" parts than C&C, which in turn has less focus on strategy over tactics than the SupCom series?
You would first have to convince me that C&C has more strategy than Starcraft, of which I don't think you could.  Many of the units in C&C were just flat out useless in multiplayer, or at least completely underpowered compared to others, so your options were pretty small.  In Starcraft, every unit has an important role, if you know how to use it wisely.

Besides, a lot of people think that tactical and strategic games are mutually exclusive - not so.  A game can have a heavy focus on tactics and micromanagement, and still have a great bit of grand strategy as well.  Claiming otherwise is like saying a Ferarri can't be fast and elegant too.

Quote
So movies like watership down , or games planetary annhilation or team fortress 2 are more child like because of their animation style?
Team Fortress 2 seems to target a pretty childlike audience to me, it's certainly not a very deep game in my experience.  I haven't played Planetary Annihilation so I can't comment, and I've never seen watership down.

Quote
Watership Down is book/ movies about bunnies, yet none would say it is for anything short of teenagers.
I've never heard of Watership Down before, but I have read George Orwell's Animal Farm.

However, to compare a literary masterpiece using childish themes to make profound adult messages, to Teemo and Annie, is somewhat hilarous to me.

I once had a discussion with a forum full of people who were attempting to convince me that My Little Pony, the most blatantly innocent child-targetting cartoon T.V. show ever, was actually made for adults because of its deep adult messages hidden intricately inside its themes.  I get the sneaking suspicion that you would have been on the opposite side of that discussion as well :P

Quote
If anything, that caters to any male except the very youngest.
It caters to immature males, who still have a very childlike interpretation of how a woman should act and dress.

Quote
Why is that child like? Is it the xp system? Or the fact you get abilities as you level up? How is DotA 2 any different?
As with most grindy RPGs, WoW gives the illusion of progress by "leveling" your character up, while you as a person don't improve at all.  League of Legends is doing the same thing.  They've tricked people into thinking they're improving in a meaningful well with levels, skills, champion unlocks, runes, and masteries.  DotA doesn't have to do that, you KNOW you've improved because you can see such a huge difference in the way you play and the outcomes of every new game.

Quote
I understand your point. But none of it decisively proves it.
Of course it doesn't, which is why I prefaced that whole part with, "it's just my opinion".

Quote
So FPS shooter games, where you control one character and don't buy your items are also less complex still?
Absolutely.  The skill in most FPS games doesn't come from their complexity, but from your own personal skill.  Most FPS games are very easy to pick up and learn, but take a long time to master.  The "skills" required to play FPS games are twitch reflexes, knowing the map layouts, teamwork, and a general understanding of the game by experiencing it a lot.  None of these skills are particularly complex, they just take time to develop.  That's pretty much how I feel about LoL as well.

Anybody could become a decent Call of Duty or Halo player if they devoted enough time to it, not everybody could become a good Starcraft 2 player, even if they tried.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: chemical_art on August 16, 2012, 05:29:52 PM
Too drunk to respond at the moment Wingflier but I will say this.

A horse is a horse. And ponies are ponies. And while My Little Pony can be enjoyed by adults it is made for young children.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: chemical_art on August 16, 2012, 05:49:37 PM
After a bit more reading.

I don't want to get into a discussion about the line between a child and an adult. I am strongly getting the vibe we have different ideas of what that is, and seeing as no where anywhere can there be a concrete distinction of what criteria exactly that line happens it is not something that can be resolved, so I will bow out.

As for the illusion of progress, it is not an illusion. On a factual basis your character gets stronger. Whether you as a player  occurs or not is different. If you have a problem with it I feel sorry for you when play RPGs, for it is literally a stable of the genre. Including AVWW.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on August 16, 2012, 06:28:06 PM
*shrug* I don't like most RPGs for that reason.  Some RPGs have a moderate level of personal skill involved, most don't.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 16, 2012, 06:52:48 PM
*shrug* I don't like most RPGs for that reason.  Some RPGs have a moderate level of personal skill involved, most don't.
I commend Valkyrie Profile to you (the first one; the second one also to some extent).

Not a massive skill ceiling, but the difference between "just learning the combat system" and "master of the combat system" is pretty huge, both in terms of pre-battle decisions, in-battle-decisions, and in-battle reflexes (with the "twitch" parts neatly concentrated into 3-4 second bursts, not the whole battle).

I could go on, but that would be off-topic, and we never do that here ;)
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: LaughingThesaurus on August 16, 2012, 07:38:32 PM
I could go on, but that would be off-topic, and we never do that here ;)

That poor old update thread for AI War...
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: RCIX on August 16, 2012, 08:57:47 PM
I could go on, but that would be off-topic, and we never do that here ;)

That poor old update thread for AI War...
Don't make me pull out the pancakes!
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 16, 2012, 09:01:47 PM
I could go on, but that would be off-topic, and we never do that here ;)

That poor old update thread for AI War...
Don't make me pull out the pancakes!
Ah, the main deciding factor between League and DotA2: which one has a Wonder Chef hero with a cleaver auto-attack, a syrup-puddle aoe-snare, a bacon-based self-heal/attack-steroid, and a massive 4-stage delayed-aoe ult that drops 4 massive pancakes on the target spot?
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: chemical_art on August 16, 2012, 09:09:29 PM
I could go on, but that would be off-topic, and we never do that here ;)

That poor old update thread for AI War...
Don't make me pull out the pancakes!
Ah, the main deciding factor between League and DotA2: which one has a Wonder Chef hero with a cleaver auto-attack, a syrup-puddle aoe-snare, a bacon-based self-heal/attack-steroid, and a massive 4-stage delayed-aoe ult that drops 4 massive pancakes on the target spot?

give it some taste buds (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKBGc5r0ms4") as a pet and I'm sold!
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: LaughingThesaurus on August 16, 2012, 09:29:41 PM
I'm beginning to love this forum.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Cyborg on August 16, 2012, 09:47:19 PM
The elitism around Dota is just that, and it does not accurately reflect the depths of both titles.

Maybe both games can be deep, competitive moba's! Olive branch anyone?

And somebody mentioned pancakes.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: madcow on August 16, 2012, 09:58:31 PM
Breaking the DoTA LoL debate. Have any of you tried awesomenauts? It sounds fairly awesome, speaking as a non-Moba lover of 2D platforming games.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 16, 2012, 10:02:25 PM
Breaking the DoTA LoL debate. Have any of you tried awesomenauts? It sounds fairly awesome, speaking as a non-Moba lover of 2D platforming games.
I'm also interested to know how that is.  The trailers were both good enough to motivate me to want a copy now, and containing enough lightning/etc type visual effects to not get one because I couldn't play it with my wife (for whom those kinds of visual effects are a migraine-trigger).
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Coppermantis on August 16, 2012, 10:23:32 PM
TotalBiscuit gave it a pretty favorable review, so it may be worth checking out. From what I've seen personally it looks like a unique  and fun take on the MOBA genre.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: LaughingThesaurus on August 16, 2012, 11:08:05 PM
TotalBiscuit has rated it favorably, and the Yogscast have played a match and uploaded it to youtube as well. Xephos and Honeydew, to be more specific. BlueXephos, to be even more specific.
I want Awesomenauts just because it looks well... pretty cool.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 17, 2012, 01:44:21 AM
I don't play MOBA games for two reasons:

1. The expectation from the rest of the player base that I'm some kind of demigod capable of doing everything exactly right, in spite of picking the game up today.
2. Said playerbase going absolutely apeshit when I do something wrong, pick the "wrong" champion (WTF?) or similar and screaming the most distasteful crap I have ever seen in my gaming career.

I stick to playing Demigod (MOBA game from the Supreme Commander guys) with friends and bots. I won't touch ANY other MOBA game with a 50 ft pole. The community is absolutely horrible.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Lancefighter on August 17, 2012, 01:59:54 AM
Demigod? is that anything like Smite? >_>

Anyway, sadly, at my point in league, i actually am almost a demigod capable of doing almost everything pretty much right. But thats because I've spent a retardedly long time playing league..

Even still, now I dont play league without my 5man team. It just isnt fun to play with pubs. I really avoid playing dota without at least some of this group, as its just really not fun to deal with people on my team that are retarded
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 17, 2012, 02:22:03 AM
Demigod is the least complicated and advanced of the MOBA games. Smite is simply LoL in a third person perspective. Demigod is different in every way. You have creep upgrades, tower upgrades, flags to hold and a limited number of "champions" (Demigods) and several maps. Demigod did some genuine innovation on the MOBA genre while most other games just copied DotA.

That being said, Demigod is probably not gonna be liked by a hardcore MOBA fan, and the netcode is absolutely awful and the support is nonexistant. It's a "play with friends" game. It could've become something, but the netcode issues killed the online community at launch and the lack of support made sure it stayed dead. It got a very short resurgance when it launched on Steam, but quickly became dead again. Now there's maybe 1-2 custom games going at any time, compared to maybe 30 in its heyday.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on August 17, 2012, 04:58:00 AM
Chris Taylor game, to be expected.

Lancefighter if you feel you've reached your peak in LoL, come on over to DotA 2. If you reach your peak there I'll eat my thing on your foot ;D
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 17, 2012, 05:17:38 AM
Chris Taylor game, to be expected.
Unfortunately, yes. Chris has the best ideas that often come to full frutition in a horrible state. SupCom was fun, but badly optimized and heavily favoured a turtle playstyle. This was however fixed in Forged Alliance.

Demigod didn't really suffer much gameplay wise on launch but the netcode issues killed it, and the lack of a quick fix left the game in shambles. The balance and bugfix patches came too late to save the game. It's still arseloads of fun with friends and with a third party AI and some bugfix/balance mods it's a great game. It's just...dead :P
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Minotaar on August 17, 2012, 08:17:49 AM
Hmm, I wonder if we should make a Dota2 team on these here forums  :)  I remember playing clanwars several years ago VERY fondly, but just can't bring myself to play pubs now. Last 5 games of dota2 I played had early leavers in all 5 (gratuitous berating is a given, of course), there's just no way to reliably get a good game alone.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: zebramatt on August 17, 2012, 09:13:27 AM
Breaking the DoTA LoL debate. Have any of you tried awesomenauts? It sounds fairly awesome, speaking as a non-Moba lover of 2D platforming games.
I'm also interested to know how that is.  The trailers were both good enough to motivate me to want a copy now, and containing enough lightning/etc type visual effects to not get one because I couldn't play it with my wife (for whom those kinds of visual effects are a migraine-trigger).

I was seconds from buying Awesomenauts after the trailer, then I realised it was a MOBA...

I very nearly bought the soundtrack on its own regardless, mind you.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 17, 2012, 09:15:04 AM
and containing enough lightning/etc type visual effects to not get one because I couldn't play it with my wife (for whom those kinds of visual effects are a migraine-trigger).
Ouch! I have migraines myself, but it's "thankfully" triggered by lack of proper sleep, nutrition or excess stress. Only really bright light (such as very sunny days or winter sun) can trigger migraines for me.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: zebramatt on August 17, 2012, 09:17:42 AM
I never get enough sleep and always get too much stress so I have to make sure I eat regular or man, it's Migraine City.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: zespri on August 17, 2012, 11:52:29 AM
Demigod didn't really suffer much gameplay wise on launch but the netcode issues killed it, and the lack of a quick fix left the game in shambles. The balance and bugfix patches came too late to save the game. It's still arseloads of fun with friends and with a third party AI and some bugfix/balance mods it's a great game. It's just...dead :P
Demigod somehow was the only dota-like game I could tolerate. Maybe it was *because* of its failure. You see, I'm direct opposite to a competitive player, so I enjoyed it with bots and as coop with friends against bots in the very beginning.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 17, 2012, 12:47:49 PM
Honestly, Demigod with the Balance Mod, Uberfix Mod and the community AI it's very enjoyable even in "single player". Add in the UI mods for extra flavor.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Lancefighter on August 17, 2012, 01:18:52 PM
Chris Taylor game, to be expected.

Lancefighter if you feel you've reached your peak in LoL, come on over to DotA 2. If you reach your peak there I'll eat my thing on your foot ;D

I'm trying.. its just way too difficult to play pub games. the community is absolutely terrible, like i said.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 17, 2012, 01:41:51 PM
Chris Taylor game, to be expected.

Lancefighter if you feel you've reached your peak in LoL, come on over to DotA 2. If you reach your peak there I'll eat my thing on your foot ;D

I'm trying.. its just way too difficult to play pub games. the community is absolutely terrible, like i said.
I wonder, maybe if they made Pyroland goggles (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUhOnX8qt3I&feature=player_detailpage#t=43s) for DotA?  So the game was the same, but the interface showed you interacting with pleasant bots instead of unpleasant humans, and you didn't have to worry about any of the drama.

...

Hmm, no, actually more disturbing.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Lancefighter on August 17, 2012, 02:25:50 PM
If it made the unpleasant humans be quiet ( i know i can manually ignore them all), and most importantly, be semi-competent players.. I'm in!
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Hearteater on August 17, 2012, 02:36:30 PM
Step 1 to enjoying any MOBA is to disable all chat/voice communication with enemies and allies.  Put on some nice music and you'll find the game much more enjoyable.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Lancefighter on August 17, 2012, 02:38:57 PM
I dunno. I really try to not be anti-communicative and all - But it just ends up being not worth the effort far too much.

Like I can play games of league with my team and actually enjoy it, for the most part - Why cant I do that in pub games?
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 17, 2012, 02:40:07 PM
Step 1 to enjoying any MOBA is to disable all chat/voice communication with enemies and allies.  Put on some nice music and you'll find the game much more enjoyable.
I don't think I could get past the fact that I was ignoring people who were in some sense counting on my cooperation.  Why not just play a singleplayer game?
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Mánagarmr on August 17, 2012, 02:44:59 PM
Step 1 to enjoying any MOBA is to disable all chat/voice communication with enemies and allies.  Put on some nice music and you'll find the game much more enjoyable.
I don't think I could get past the fact that I was ignoring people who were in some sense counting on my cooperation.  Why not just play a singleplayer game?
This. So much this.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Hearteater on August 17, 2012, 02:51:37 PM
Find me an AI as good as a human, and you could play a MOBA as a single-player game.  But humans are currently better, so for more of a challenge, you play against people.  You turn off chat because 99% of what people type is unnecessary, and frequently offensive.  Just pretend you are playing with a bunch of people who don't speak your language.  Anything you need to say can be done via pings.  Sadly LoL doesn't allow pings to be ignored separately from chat so you need to drag the chat off screen.  I'm not sure how DOTA2/HoN handles muting.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Lancefighter on August 17, 2012, 03:15:52 PM
  Sadly LoL doesn't allow pings to be ignored separately from chat so you need to drag the chat off screen.
Thats actually a feature. rofl.
Nowadays I cant even drag the chat offscreen - I need it for dargon and baron timers.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: LaughingThesaurus on August 17, 2012, 05:59:46 PM
Find me an AI as good as a human, and you could play a MOBA as a single-player game.  But humans are currently better, so for more of a challenge, you play against people.  You turn off chat because 99% of what people type is unnecessary, and frequently offensive.  Just pretend you are playing with a bunch of people who don't speak your language.  Anything you need to say can be done via pings.  Sadly LoL doesn't allow pings to be ignored separately from chat so you need to drag the chat off screen.  I'm not sure how DOTA2/HoN handles muting.

You got me thinking about a possible MOBA game... basically DotA where the enemy is the AI from AI War. Creeps sneak around through the jungle to sneak down your lanes... every tower you destroy gives AI Progress... and the AI spawns heroes and regular waves of creeps to just make things interesting...
Destroy the Superfortress and your team wins?
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 17, 2012, 06:09:03 PM
Destroy the Superfortress and your team wins?
"Congratulations, you have drawn the AI's attention!"

(tremendous rumbling noise, dark shadow cast over entire ally throne, massive orbital laser fires, screen whiteout)
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on August 17, 2012, 06:22:33 PM
You have won! *Cue Deathstar*
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: LaughingThesaurus on August 17, 2012, 06:23:52 PM
They are always just toying with you...

Well, I would have said command station but then a Scorched Earth AI would always win.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: madcow on August 20, 2012, 12:15:55 PM
So if any are still interested in awesomenauts, I decided to go ahead and grab it (keep in mind I've not played any moba style games, but love 2d action/platformer types).

It's quite enjoyable, I've only played one online game and got my butt kicked. It has off-line play mode, bots, and even local co-op (local as in split-screen on the same computer) which are all very nice pluses.

It also has the very large plus of its games only being 10-20 mins long (I hear most moba type games are like 40-60 mins long). Even though I haven't played much online, it gets a recommendation from me for fun gameplay and style with lots of personality. Though I'm not bothered by the flashiness on screen either.

Basically, I see it has a lot of potential for depth and skill, but its even enjoyable on a casual player level too.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 20, 2012, 12:30:02 PM
It also has the very large plus of its games only being 10-20 mins long (I hear most moba type games are like 40-60 mins long).
More like 30-40 in my what I've seen, and in League vs bots it can get down to 8-15 if you're decently good and specifically trying for a quick win.

Thanks for the info on awesomenauts, I'll probably pick it up on a sale and play local-vs-bots a lot on my "I want to play a game but my brain is fried" time :)  Lately been using TF2 local bot games for that purpose.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Lancefighter on August 20, 2012, 05:21:28 PM
Anyone play BLC? I heard good things about it when it was first released (TreeEskimo's bother, Megazero, won some tournament on stream once..) But I've heard literally nothing of it since then.

It seems like a really good alternative, as you really dont have time to type how bad your teammates are in the middle of a game :p
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: RCIX on August 20, 2012, 11:14:39 PM
Anyone play BLC? I heard good things about it when it was first released (TreeEskimo's bother, Megazero, won some tournament on stream once..) But I've heard literally nothing of it since then.

It seems like a really good alternative, as you really dont have time to type how bad your teammates are in the middle of a game :p
"Really fast paced fighting-esque style gameplay"
all the skills, even autoattacks, have 0.5+ second channels
-.-
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: madcow on September 01, 2012, 11:41:59 AM
I've put in several hours into awesomenauts now, including a few online matches and matches against bots, and I've unlocked all the characters. I can say that the game has really opened up and is far more enjoyable. A few of the characters seem on the overly strong side, and others could definitely use a bit of help but that's to be expected and patches seem to come out every other week (including new characters, though the last new char is one of the weakest I think). The different characters all feel vastly different just from the way they move - there's double jumpers, single tall jumpers, a few that use jet packs instead of jumping, and one that flies.

The bots aren't great, but they do put up a fight, the drop-in and out system works pretty well in multiplayer, if somebody leaves they get replaced by a bot, and then the bot replaced by another person that joins. If you join a game in progress you can use whatever character you want still, and get free money to put you on par with everybody else. So if a crappy teammate leaves and gets replaced by a good teammate, you can turn a game around.

So in short, I liked it when I first got the game, and now that I've put some more time into it and unlocked all the characters I like it even more. Even playing against the bots is enjoyable (I can't play games online most of the time). I'm sure some of the casual aspects might drive away hardcore DoTa players, but its good for me.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: chemical_art on September 01, 2012, 11:52:09 AM
Sounds exciting madcow, I'll give it a shot.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Volatar on September 01, 2012, 01:34:57 PM
Dang. I really regret spending my last $10 on something else now.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on September 06, 2012, 10:47:04 AM
Riot Games for Season 3 attempted to make teams participating in their competitive scene, play their game EXCLUSIVELY, to gain a monopoly over the MOBA/ARTS Genre.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3E6Bs08JinA

Riot approaches many professional teams with an exclusivity contract (EG, CoL, and Dignitas, among others), which most professional teams DENY because they want to play both games.

When Riot realizes that it's not going to work, and that the rumor has leaked and is going to cause a giant PR shitstorm, they promptly change their policy to allow everyone, and OPENLY LIE about the exclusivity contracts that they had attempted to force upon the professional teams.

http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/zdiyn/riot_attempts_to_force_sponsors_of_teams_in_pro/c63ny6e

Sources:

http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/zfvii/riot_games_attempts_to_block_esports/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiZZR9jiUbs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YXEajpaZ7M (Proof that they've done this kind of thing before)
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/z2wux/team_liquid_officially_covering_dota_2/c611bb4

Many of the E-Sports team leads have already admitted that this is true, including the leaders of Evil Geniuses and Team Liquid.  For anyone who doesn't know who SirScoots is, he's a very well-respected member of the E-Sports community, and leader of team EG:  http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=236041

I could almost accept that Riot was attempting to make all the teams play exclusively their game, because that's the kind of scumbag company they are.  But to attempt to do that, then LIE about it to the community's face?

I consider myself completely vindicated for everything I've said about this scumbag company.  They are on par with Electronic Arts, Blizzard, and Chick-Fil-A as far as I'm concerned.

Quote from: hearteater
Not to mention your emotional (aka, irrational) feelings about LoL and Riot.
Eat your heart out.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 06, 2012, 11:00:59 AM
Any company that reaches critical mass devolves into a corporate cesspool of PR speak and "behind closed doors" shady deals. #madeupfacts
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Lancefighter on September 06, 2012, 02:43:02 PM
So.. I can understand wanting exclusivity if they are PAYING for people to PLAY VIDEO GAMES ALL YEAR.

I dunno. I dont really think it matters that much. Riot is trying very hard to solidify their position as an esport, and theyre bound to make mistakes. Esports isnt exactly a well established thing that people know how to do very well.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 06, 2012, 02:44:26 PM
So.. I can understand wanting exclusivity if they are PAYING for people to PLAY VIDEO GAMES ALL YEAR.

I dunno. I dont really think it matters that much. Riot is trying very hard to solidify their position as an esport, and theyre bound to make mistakes. Esports isnt exactly a well established thing that people know how to do very well.
That sounded awfully apologetic considering what it is RIOT actually did.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Lancefighter on September 06, 2012, 02:48:39 PM
from me? I dunno. Its not going to affect me at all. Like. Not one bit. I honestly barely even care for the league competitive scene anymore, given that dota is so much more interesting to watch.

I have a few players Id like to see do well, but I dont think any of them are on teams looking at a salary atm.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 06, 2012, 03:22:29 PM
Maybe I'm just an overly moral person, but I find it hard to interact with companies that act so overtly scumbag...-y

Such as ActiBlizzard, EA, Ubi and now Riot.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Lancefighter on September 06, 2012, 03:30:37 PM
well.. In riots case, I dont really feel like I am interacting with them. I have never given them money, nor intend to. If at one point, my account got deleted, despite having spent something like two full years collecting ip, I probably would just not care, and stop playing league alltogether. I might actually go back to eve-o.. But my point is, I dont really feel like I am interacting with them at the same level that I would interact with ubi or ea.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: chemical_art on September 06, 2012, 03:35:16 PM
I don't get it.

It would be like a nascar driver sposnered by nascar itself is not allowed to drive in formula one racers.

Or a football player in one league is not allowed to play in other leagues.

Maybe it is because I see all corporations lie and I don't care about esports at all, but I don't see what riot did as particularly bad.

Exclusivity contracts are nothing new or bad. Lying about it? That's bad, but even arcen cannot freely discolse everything due to non disclosure agreements. If as part of their contract the salaried players sign a NDA, then nothing illegal has happened, unless you think steam as a whole is bad for their NDA on their profits from hosting games.

To put it another way:

Companies try out all sorts of ideas all the time. Riot were idiots for letting it leak out, but almost all companies at some point consider distastful ideas but back off because they are unpopular. Whether it be a fee, an previously free feature no longer being so, a new service that costs money, almost every company looking to expand its bottom line tries some things. There are done in comittees behind closed doors to prevent the PR fiasco that Riot has, but don't delude yourselves that it isn't done in the vast majority of companies over their life time.

Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 06, 2012, 03:42:05 PM
There's a difference between "Non disclosure" and "flat out lie" in my world.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: chemical_art on September 06, 2012, 03:48:49 PM
There's a difference between "Non disclosure" and "flat out lie" in my world.

See above. These distastful things are considered on at least a weekly bases on many companies, but said companies aren't stupid enough to let the bad ideas leak out of committee. It still doesn't change that these ideas are tossed about constantly.


What matters in part I guess is whether you are mad that they considered the idea in the first place, mad they backed off but didn't make it clear they were only considering the idea, or whether you think they were full fledged for the idea but backed off because no one bought it.

It would be on the same intellectial level of rioting because arcen considered using a kickstarter for a valley without wind. To <fund further expansions / make a profit [these concepts in practice are the same: get more money]> except arcen made a much more clear they were feeling out the community response, while riot intenternally with their salaried teams asked them to comply.
^^^Two aren't related at all I find: One is arcen asking for money, so its a company - consumer relationsip, while riots deal is a company - employee relationsup.

I guess on some level I am viewing the salaried esports players as employees. In most jobs, your boss tells you "you are doing this". If you say "no" to the end you get fired. Unless the company implements in writing what is going on, they deny, deny, deny any changes to the company - employee relationship. I see this as a fact of life. So when riot suddenly does this to its employees, I don't feel any outrage.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: chemical_art on September 06, 2012, 03:56:15 PM
The more I read, the more I don't get it.

How is that someone who is paid to play your game being told not to publicly play your competitor suddenly a terrible thing?

Lying about this practice is idiotic on riot, for they should have simply put it as a NDA in their contract for this, but it doesn't change the fact.

That VP who commented to begin with should get the ax. Even an apologist like me cannot stand such a blatant lie, even with my cynicism not surprised.

Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Hearteater on September 06, 2012, 04:19:23 PM
I was under the impression the requirement was that is, for example, CLG was salaried, they couldn't have a DOTA/HoN team, even if those individuals weren't being paid by Riot.  Basically, if the name CLG was salaried it shouldn't be attached to other games.  This is what happens when modern business people aren't held in check by people who actually have a grasp on reality.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on September 06, 2012, 05:01:19 PM
The more I read, the more I don't get it.

How is that someone who is paid to play your game being told not to publicly play your competitor suddenly a terrible thing?

Lying about this practice is idiotic on riot, for they should have simply put it as a NDA in their contract for this, but it doesn't change the fact.

That VP who commented to begin with should get the ax. Even an apologist like me cannot stand such a blatant lie, even with my cynicism not surprised.
What I don't get is how saying, "But every other Corporation does this" makes it okay. 

Gaming and E-sports are just in their infancy in America in terms of its popularity and even acceptance among our culture.  Hell, most people still consider people who spend their lives making games their career as nerds or pimply basement-dwellers.  The e-sports community really needs all the positive attention and publicity it can get.

Secondly, if you are a professional gamer, as the people on most of these teams are, would you like to spend all your time playing together, practicing, and getting better the game so you can win tournaments; or working at McDonald's in your spare time so that you can make ends meet?  Riot isn't paying these players enough to live on, I can assure you.  Most professional gamers in America have to enter tournaments from multiple games to sustain their lifestyle, or take up some kind of part-time job to continue playing.  Some well-known players have had to quit gaming forever to pursue a college career instead of an unreliable and performance-based field (E-Sports).

But Riot doesn't give a shit about the plight of the gamers or of E-Sports in general, all they care about is making money.  Isn't this what I said from the very beginning? 

If they just came out and said that, I would at least respect them for their honesty.  But no, they want to portray themselves as this "community-friendly", "self-sacrificing" company who, by giving their game out as free, must be struggling with money, and kindly accepts you, the player's donation.

Let me ask you something:  Do you HONESTLY think that Riot needs that money?  Do you honestly think that if they don't make people sign a contract to not play any other game, they'll suddenly go bankrupt and have to shut LoL down forever?

If anyone here really thinks that, the insults I have for your gullible mind are not fit for these forums.  I'll let you use your imagination.

One final point I'll make is that if Riot is really CONFIDENT in their game, and in the success of League of Legends, why is this kind of action necessary?  As Idra says in this video around 37 minutes (http://www.twitch.tv/onemoregametv/b/331091682), a good game should speak for itself.  The fact that this is happening so soon after The International 2, and so close to DotA 2's release, shows how insecure and petty they are as a company.

What Riot did, and has done since they entered the scene, is intrinsically wrong; it shouldn't have to be explained to you.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: RCIX on September 06, 2012, 05:13:40 PM
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=28978008#28978008

Call me gullible or naive or whatever for "swallowing the company line", but I'm not buying it in the first place. Riot has made big mistakes before (huge ones) but they haven't shown that they're directly working against the consumer or pro scene in any way. It's just *too* boneheaded of a move for them to try, never mind try and then deny that they are doing it.

My bet? the QQstorm over this will die down as it should, a few of the quote-unquote exclusive labels will start up dota/hon teams, and we'll find it was all a fabrication/lie.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on September 06, 2012, 05:42:55 PM
Quote
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=28978008#28978008

Call me gullible or naive or whatever for "swallowing the company line", but I'm not buying it in the first place. Riot has made big mistakes before (huge ones) but they haven't shown that they're directly working against the consumer or pro scene in any way. It's just *too* boneheaded of a move for them to try, never mind try and then deny that they are doing it.

My bet? the QQstorm over this will die down as it should, a few of the quote-unquote exclusive labels will start up dota/hon teams, and we'll find it was all a fabrication/lie.
I gave that link already in my first post:  http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/zdiyn/riot_attempts_to_force_sponsors_of_teams_in_pro/c63ny6e

What is more likely, that Riot, an already questionable company who has many shady dealings in the past is lying?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YXEajpaZ7M

OR that a bunch of leaders from professional teams are lying to make Riot look bad for some unknown reason?  http://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/zf6bg/dont_listen_to_riot_the_lol_team_exclusivity/c642gyf

We already know that Riot has tried to monopolize many tournaments, barring any other MOBA from entering, this is just taking it a step further.  Why would the leaders of these teams lie?  How does it benefit them?  League of Legends is a E-Sport and source of money for them, why would they want to jeopardize that unless they found it absolutely necessary to call Riot out on their bullshit?

If it comes between Riot and well respected community members, and the leaders of many professional teams, I'll choose the respected gamers every time.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Mánagarmr on September 06, 2012, 06:10:05 PM
To be frank, trying to front an exclusivity deal isn't strange. It's just company bullcrap as usual. Lying bald faced about it when confronted is was makes it terrible.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: RCIX on September 06, 2012, 06:11:01 PM
What is more likely, that Riot, an already questionable company who has many shady dealings in the past is lying?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YXEajpaZ7M

How is that "shady"? It may not be very nice and it may not be the smartest PR move, but it's good business practice if you can pull it off. Plus, if the people who are signing these contracts understand it and agree to it then it's not shady (at worst it's Riot forcing a bunch of organization's hands into accepting unfavorable deals).



OR that a bunch of leaders from professional teams are lying to make Riot look bad for some unknown reason?  http://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/zf6bg/dont_listen_to_riot_the_lol_team_exclusivity/c642gyf
I would honestly place them at equal weight at this point. Never underestimate the league community to blow small problems out of proportion and start frothing at the mouth over slim facts and slimmer evidence. You want proof? Look at the 1000 RP "fiasco", where the forums erupted in a sea of over-entitled gamers whining that people who had a bunch of additional problems ON TOP of the servers going down for ~1 week didn't deserve additional compensation.

That's not to say that Riot's communication on these sorts of topics doesn't suck (it does) but given Riot's history I honestly don't see how this makes them eeeee-vil.



And bottom line, if this somehow was "shady" and Riot was acting stupidly/maliciously, I'd still be loyal to them. Why? Simply because all of the competitors suck worse. The only one even really worth considering is Dota 2 and the community is leagues worse (hue). plus the developer's attitude, if not outright statements and actions, say that most of it's playerbase is second class citizens who are not worth giving the time of day to (never mind actually trying to make a more fun experience for them).

EDIT: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=29022381#post29022381
Honestly, I don't know what more you want out of them at this point then a "no we aren't, we haven't, and we never will".
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on September 06, 2012, 07:58:20 PM
Quote
How is that "shady"? It may not be very nice and it may not be the smartest PR move, but it's good business practice if you can pull it off. Plus, if the people who are signing these contracts understand it and agree to it then it's not shady (at worst it's Riot forcing a bunch of organization's hands into accepting unfavorable deals).
How is it shady to make major gaming tournaments exclusive to your own game?  Do you see anybody else doing that?

Do you see nothing wrong with that?

Quote
I would honestly place them at equal weight at this point. Never underestimate the league community to blow small problems out of proportion and start frothing at the mouth over slim facts and slimmer evidence.
I'm not talking about the Riot Community, I'm talking about the heads of several major gaming teams such as Team Liquid, EG, CoL, and Dignitas.  They've all come out and said that Riot was forcing them to play LoL exclusively until they realized how bad of an idea it was (and what a PR shitstorm it would have caused), and went back on what they said.

Quote
And bottom line, if this somehow was "shady" and Riot was acting stupidly/maliciously, I'd still be loyal to them. Why? Simply because all of the competitors suck worse. The only one even really worth considering is Dota 2 and the community is leagues worse (hue). plus the developer's attitude, if not outright statements and actions, say that most of it's playerbase is second class citizens who are not worth giving the time of day to (never mind actually trying to make a more fun experience for them).
Wait.  Valve's attitude and actions is that most of its playerbase is second class?  Are you serious?

Quote
EDIT: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=29022381#post29022381
Honestly, I don't know what more you want out of them at this point then a "no we aren't, we haven't, and we never will".
Why should I believe them just because they say it twice?

If this was a court they would be guilty as sin:

1. They have a clear motive.
2. They've done it before.
3. The accusers (professional teams) have no reason to lie - there is no benefit to getting on bad terms with Riot.

AND Riot has lied before, many times. 

When it comes between trusting a greedy Corporation and trusting several small groups of gamers trying to make a living doing what they love, the choice is clear.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: RCIX on September 06, 2012, 08:10:57 PM
Quote
How is that "shady"? It may not be very nice and it may not be the smartest PR move, but it's good business practice if you can pull it off. Plus, if the people who are signing these contracts understand it and agree to it then it's not shady (at worst it's Riot forcing a bunch of organization's hands into accepting unfavorable deals).
How is it shady to make major gaming tournaments exclusive to your own game?  Do you see anybody else doing that?

Do you see nothing wrong with that?
I didn't say it was a great idea, especially for PR. If both parties agree to it, then I don't see a problem, no. You see "exclusivity" contracts in employment all the time (see non-compete clauses) as well as in various other areas.

Quote
And bottom line, if this somehow was "shady" and Riot was acting stupidly/maliciously, I'd still be loyal to them. Why? Simply because all of the competitors suck worse. The only one even really worth considering is Dota 2 and the community is leagues worse (hue). plus the developer's attitude, if not outright statements and actions, say that most of it's playerbase is second class citizens who are not worth giving the time of day to (never mind actually trying to make a more fun experience for them).
Wait.  Valve's attitude and actions is that most of its playerbase is second class?  Are you serious?
What was the last balance or design decision Dota has gotten for the playerbase at large over the "tournament and pro scene"?

2. They've done it before.
Where?

If this was a court they would be guilty as sin:
Oh, and, no. These teams have produced ZERO shreds of evidence, its just a bunch of guys pointing their finger at Riot right now and going YOU TRIED TO MAKE US EXCLUSIVE with nary a document or recorded conversation backing them.

Quote
I would honestly place them at equal weight at this point. Never underestimate the league community to blow small problems out of proportion and start frothing at the mouth over slim facts and slimmer evidence.
I'm not talking about the Riot Community, I'm talking about the heads of several major gaming teams such as Team Liquid, EG, CoL, and Dignitas.  They've all come out and said that Riot was forcing them to play LoL exclusively until they realized how bad of an idea it was (and what a PR shitstorm it would have caused), and went back on what they said.
So assuming this was the case, they have decided not to do exclusivity contracts. Name me another large company that wouldn't try to steamroll forward anyway and only pull out if it was likely to cause the entire game to implode (or similar of that magnitude).

Edit: https://twitter.com/dignitasODEE/status/243854085411987456
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: chemical_art on September 06, 2012, 09:59:58 PM
What I don't get is how saying, "But every other Corporation does this" makes it okay. 

Gaming and E-sports are just in their infancy in America in terms of its popularity and even acceptance among our culture.  Hell, most people still consider people who spend their lives making games their career as nerds or pimply basement-dwellers.  The e-sports community really needs all the positive attention and publicity it can get.

Ok. What is the point? A company is paying some players to do e-sports, expanding the field.

Secondly, if you are a professional gamer, as the people on most of these teams are, would you like to spend all your time playing together, practicing, and getting better the game so you can win tournaments; or working at McDonald's in your spare time so that you can make ends meet?  Riot isn't paying these players enough to live on, I can assure you.  Most professional gamers in America have to enter tournaments from multiple games to sustain their lifestyle, or take up some kind of part-time job to continue playing.  Some well-known players have had to quit gaming forever to pursue a college career instead of an unreliable and performance-based field (E-Sports).

No one is forcing them to accept playing for Riot. If they don't make enough money, they walk away. If enough teams leave Riot, they drop the idea or they pay the players more or they accept less skilled teams. If they don't make enough money for a career to what is a hobby, they can pursue a less satisfying but more financially rewarding job. Billions of people do it, I don't see what makes e-sports players so entitled. As for being forced to pursue a college career rather then pursuing their dream, that happens in the millions for other sports players of all sorts, so I don't see what makes e-sports any more tragic.

But Riot doesn't give a shit about the plight of the gamers or of E-Sports in general, all they care about is making money.  Isn't this what I said from the very beginning? 

You can repeat the same statement over and over, but since you are not providing direct evidence (and finger pointing by the accused alone is not enough) you aren't doing a good job of convincing those who don't already want to believe. You brought up if this was court they are ugly as sin, but if you think hearsay alone is damning enough, then any employee can accuses their employer of anything, and any person can convict others do to word alone. There was a time when hearsay alone could convict someone: They were literally witch-hunts.

If they just came out and said that, I would at least respect them for their honesty.  But no, they want to portray themselves as this "community-friendly", "self-sacrificing" company who, by giving their game out as free, must be struggling with money, and kindly accepts you, the player's donation.

If what they said is true. But since I don't find direct evidence, and find some conflicting reports (see RCIX's link) I'm not fully convinced this was a hard and fast policy. In addition, this is the company paying you to play their game. They don't have to pay teams at all, and the community would sever as the e-sports are less entertaining because Riot sacrifices some money to attract talent. I don't see why an employer for a field for a hobby is required to be a paragon of goodness to its employees any more then any other company ever.

Also: Relationship of company to its employees =/= relationship of its customers directly.

Let me ask you something:  Do you HONESTLY think that Riot needs that money?  Do you honestly think that if they don't make people sign a contract to not play any other game, they'll suddenly go bankrupt and have to shut LoL down forever?

You can say this about any business ever you don't like. Does <x> have to do <y> to make money. Do oil companies have to make billions. Does McDonalds have to make billions. Does insurance have to make billions. Does <company you don't like> have to <pursue money making idea> to <be a company and make money>.

Who decides what a company should or should not do. You, me, the government? Today, its the market aside from legal issues.

If Riot decided they wanted players to give their game publicity to their game, and their game alone, they have the right to evaluate the idea. It doesn't matter whether the idea is tasteful or not. It's a black and white issue: If what the company wants to do is legal, do they either:
1) Not allowed to pursue their idea and let the market decide if it is a good idea or not.
2) Company is allowed to pursue their idea as long as it is legal in spirit and in practice.

Just because you don't like the idea doesn't mean Riot is not allowed to pursue a means of making money.

In addition, if Riot gave a competitively higher rate of salary in return for exclusivity, then market forces would causes teams to flock to them. If their pay was not competitive, players of lower skill would flock to them while the most skilled would walk away. No one is stopping any of these teams to not accept the money and thus pursue publicly playing other games. No one is stopping the players from taking the money or enjoying

If anyone here really thinks that, the insults I have for your gullible mind are not fit for these forums.  I'll let you use your imagination.

You can throw whatever insults you want, but it doesn't make you any more right. You don't have the right to decide what a company should or should not do any more then anyone else, so you answer with your wallet and views of LoL.

One final point I'll make is that if Riot is really CONFIDENT in their game, and in the success of League of Legends, why is this kind of action necessary?  As Idra says in this video around 37 minutes (http://www.twitch.tv/onemoregametv/b/331091682), a good game should speak for itself.  The fact that this is happening so soon after The International 2, and so close to DotA 2's release, shows how insecure and petty they are as a company.

 So the #2 company has its largest competitor coming into the scene with an huge update. Soon the said competitor shall compete directly for attention in e-sports. Do they have the right to respond and change to it? It's a yes or no answer. If they are allowed, they are allowed to decide what they want. You don't have to agree with it, and if enough people don't the game will crash. But it's the company that decides their own fate.

What Riot did, and has done since they entered the scene, is intrinsically wrong; it shouldn't have to be explained to you.

See, this isn't an logical argument. You say it is clear as day this is happening, but have no more then accusations. You say its clear how bad it is, but don't bring out how you think you should dictate what a company can or cannot do based on your opinions. You say anyone who doesn't agree is an idiot not worthy to speak. And that if you cannot see it you don't deserve the explanation.

These are fine to a crowd that agrees with you, but you are failing spectacularly of driving discussion forward or convincing those who don't agree.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on September 06, 2012, 10:42:44 PM
Quote
You can say this about any business ever you don't like. Does <x> have to do <y> to make money. Do oil companies have to make billions. Does McDonalds have to make billions. Does insurance have to make billions. Does <company you don't like> have to <pursue money making idea> to <be a company and make money>.

Who decides what a company should or should not do. You, me, the government? Today, its the market aside from legal issues.
LOL, you're defending the oil companies now?  Defending a institution that has publicly and blatantly patented energy alternatives in order to keep their monopoly on the market?  An institution that, within the next 20 years, will probably cause a global meltdown when the finite oil reserve runs out?

You're defending McDonald's, whose business is to serve people extremely unhealthy food quickly, regardless of the cost?  Being a huge cause of obesity and heart disease in America?

You're defending insurance companies, who profit off of the loss and misfortune of people; when the countries which are doing best statically in the world already have Universal Healthcare?

Because everyone else does this, that makes it okay?

I'm not arguing with you two anymore, you are fan boys to the extreme.  If you can't see the problem with the Corporate world today, and the reason why uprisings like Occupy Wallstreet and The Tea Party even exist, and also be ashamed that Riot would try to replicate such disgusting business tactics, then you have completely missed the point.

Quote
If Riot decided they wanted players to give their game publicity to their game, and their game alone, they have the right to evaluate the idea. It doesn't matter whether the idea is tasteful or not. It's a black and white issue: If what the company wants to do is legal, do they either:
1) Not allowed to pursue their idea and let the market decide if it is a good idea or not.
2) Company is allowed to pursue their idea as long as it is legal in spirit and in practice.

Just because you don't like the idea doesn't mean Riot is not allowed to pursue a means of making money.
Quote
So assuming this was the case, they have decided not to do exclusivity contracts. Name me another large company that wouldn't try to steamroll forward anyway and only pull out if it was likely to cause the entire game to implode (or similar of that magnitude).
This is where the crux of our disagreement lies.  Your argument seems to be "If a company CAN do something, why shouldn't they be allowed to?"  As if Corporations shouldn't be held morally accountable if they can get away with something horrible.

Sorry, but this discussion is over.  I'm really disappointed.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: chemical_art on September 06, 2012, 10:54:48 PM
You still don't get it.

I'm defending the worst companies because that is the crux of the arguement.

In the United States, there is the right for free speech. The issue comes up not when people says things everyone likes, it comes up when people says things no one likes. Because that is arguement: If you think the right exists, then it applies to everyone, not just those you like.

For the same reason, if you think companies of any sort, from oil companies, to Apple, to Arcen, to Valve, to Riot, have the right to run their own companies if they follow rules and regulations, you have to accept them all. That is the rule of law. It is not arbitrary.

I'll repeat it: It is not arbitrary

You still are cherry picking. The problems you just described with oil companies are not legal, neither in print nor in spirit.  Just because you think companies can do what they want withinthe law doesn't mean they get to brake the law.

McDonalds is offering something people want. Who is to say they cannot give what people want, since the food they serve is safe if not healthy? If you think they cannot serve their food, then why not ban Burger King, Wendy's, or any fast food. And if that is the case, then restaurants should not serve healthy food either...where do you draw the line? It's a slippery slope, and you might think its fine till they take away what you like.

Insurance companies are following rules and laws made from them, if you don't like them, change them. Blame the source, not the symptoms. Change what they are or not allowed to do, provide a public option, nationalize it, etc. But the company is running in the environment given to them.

You seem to have the idea that because you don't like something, it is not right, not considering other points of view. The world does not revolve around you. You can blither all the insults you want, but it would be far more effective to let your arguments do the insulting for you, rather then be about you.

To bring it back around to my supposed claim, I'll bring yours: "If a company does something I don't like, they shouldn't do it."

Laws were made so others didn't decide what everyone could do based on a whim. Law is supposed to be blind and applied equally. If you think this is true, then it must be pursued to everything, not just used to support what you like and against what you don't like. Thus, if something or someone does something you don't like, you don't demand to change their behavior, you ignore it. If think you have the right to change it, then you give up your own right to do what you want, for someone certainly doesn't like something you do. For every business, everyone, everyone, yes, even arcen, has someone that doesn't like what the company does. If you think the bad business should change because you don't like it but it is within the law, then you accept every business must change.

So if you want to remain in the opinion that anyone who disagrees with you is bad, and idiot, whatever. It hurts your arguments, and as shown here has caused the opposite of causing support to your opinion with causing me who at the start of this thread not caring at all, but now caring to disagree enough to write all this.

But for me? I believe in the ability for others to pursue what they like, to ignore that they don't like, and to enjoy a good debate on points of view. I don't feel entitled to being superior, to thinking I'm always right, and yet being able to do what I want. Live and let live.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on September 06, 2012, 11:46:17 PM
Quote
In the United States, there is the right for free speech. The issue comes up not when people says things everyone likes, it comes up when people says things no one likes. Because that is arguement: If you think the right exists, then it applies to everyone, not just those you like.

For the same reason, if you think companies of any sort, from oil companies, to Apple, to Arcen, to Valve, to Riot, have the right to run their own companies if they follow rules and regulations, you have to accept them all. That is the rule of law. It is not arbitrary.
Oh, so as long as you're not breaking the law, what you're doing is completely fine.

So it's fine to cheat on your spouse?  It's fine to blatantly lie to your friends or customers?  It's fine to scream and hurt somebody that loves you? 

None of these things are illegal, but they are still considered wrong by what I would consider moral people.  THE LAW does not cover all moral injustices, and if you think it does then you're either Patriotic to a fault, or completely blind. 

The LAW ITSELF can be unjust, and yes, it is our duty to change the law, I agree with you.  Unfortunately, when the Congress approval rate in the U.S. is 9%, it's not very easy to change the law when you don't even trust the people elected to represent you.

And I HAVE been active in trying to change unjust Corporate Laws btw.  I was part of an Occupy Wall Street event in Washington D.C. last December.  I got arrested and thrown in jail with hardened criminals, it was one of the worst experiences of my life. 

So once again, the law does not necessarily reflect what is morally just, nor are the people or companies who follow the law to the letter necessarily moral people.  This is ethics 101.

Quote
You seem to have the idea that because you don't like something, it is not right, not considering other points of view. The world does not revolve around you. You can blither all the insults you want, but it would be far more effective to let your arguments do the insulting for you, rather then be about you.
It's more than just what I don't like.  What Riot was attempting to do was an injustice to the ENTIRE gaming community.  Why do you think they tried to hide it once they realized how bad the reaction would be?  I don't need to explain why it's wrong, the reasons speak for themselves.

Just because it's covered "BY THE LAW" doesn't make it right, and if you can't see that you're blind.

Quote
Laws were made so others didn't decide what everyone could do based on a whim. Law is supposed to be blind and applied equally. If you think this is true, then it must be pursued to everything, not just used to support what you like and against what you don't like. Thus, if something or someone does something you don't like, you don't demand to change their behavior, you ignore it.
Oh, so since a Company lying to its playerbase isn't technically against the law, I should ignore it?

Since it's not technically cheating for my wife to cheat on me, I should ignore it?

You're naive and nuanced view of "the law" is completely unrealistic, and a huge part of the problem with our country. 

Finally, I don't think I'm better than you, but this IS NOT something I'm going to back down on.  I don't care how popular it is for companies to pull stunts like this; whether or not they get away with it, it's not RIGHT.  I don't care what the law says, it literally means nothing to me.

Quote
Lying about this practice is idiotic on riot, for they should have simply put it as a NDA in their contract for this, but it doesn't change the fact.
You're literally saying that Riot's biggest mistake was not hiding this disgusting business practice better than they did.  How can I respect that?
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: chemical_art on September 07, 2012, 12:10:03 AM
I'm not backing down either.

When you say "The law means nothing to me" you highlight just how entitled you feel you are. Imagine a society that had such a view. That would not be a society for very long.

Allowing a company to pursue their business how they want is not the same as you being fine with it. While the company has the right to do what they want legally, you have just as much right to respond to it, whether you buy from them, boycott them, speak for them, speak against them. You have just as much right to respond as they do what they want.

The work of the above point is shown clearly in the in Riot's situation: They could decide to force exclusivity, but their public opinion to those who enjoyed e-sports suffered. The benefit of forcing exclusivity was not worth the cost they thought, so they abandoned it if they thought about it to begin with, and they certainly won't try if they were just considering it.

On the other hand,  reconsidering a change in employee contracts (in this case, e-sport players of riot being payed to play League of Legends) is not an injustice to the "entire" gaming community, its the small but vocal minority who watches e-sports on anything more then a casual basis. Even then, it still isn't an "injustice". There is nothing injust about a Non compete clause (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-compete_clause). In fact, it is very common in media from television to radio. If you boycott Riot because they considered the idea, you should follow through and abandon news stations, radio talk hosts, etc, for they follow the same idea.

Something that is not within the law doesn't make it right, but it doesn't make it wrong either. It is opinion. Opinions make their voice heard with wallets or lack thereof. That is how it should be done, and that is exactly how it is being done here.

As for Riot and their NDA, it is again a matter of what you approve of. I think Steam has the "disgusting" practice of not allowing those who use their service to disclose how much money Steam takes as a cut. That is an NDA in practice. Steam actually is a worst case for it is a case of company - customer relationship, which for me should be more open then the company - employee relationship of Riot and salaried e-sports players. However, Steam is still better then other similar services, so I still use it.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: Wingflier on September 07, 2012, 12:41:25 AM
Quote
When you say "The law means nothing to me" you highlight just how entitled you feel you are. Imagine a society that had such a view. That would not be a society for very long.
Look at the context.  In terms of moral rights and wrong, the law means nothing to me.  Many laws in our country are made to protect the Capitalistic "Rights" of the people, and really have no moral value (perhaps a negative moral value).

Morality != Law, these are two completely different subjects.  The laws can be moral, and things can become laws because they are moral, but they aren't necessarily equivalent.

Quote
Allowing a company to pursue their business how they want is not the same as you being fine with it. While the company has the right to do what they want legally, you have just as much right to respond to it, whether you buy from them, boycott them, speak for them, speak against them. You have just as much right to respond as they do what they want.
You're right, I have the right to speak out against them.  I'm practicing my right.  What is it that we're disagreeing about?

Quote
On the other hand,  reconsidering a change in employee contracts (in this case, e-sport players of riot being payed to play League of Legends) is not an injustice to the "entire" gaming community, its the small but vocal minority who watches e-sports on anything more then a casual basis. Even then, it still isn't an "injustice". There is nothing injust about a Non compete clause. In fact, it is very common in media from television to radio. If you boycott Riot because they considered the idea, you should follow through and abandon news stations, radio talk hosts, etc, for they follow the same idea.
Once again, it doesn't matter how many Companies do this, it doesn't make it right.  Besides, this is a quite unique situation.  E-sports, like I said before, is still in its infancy.  We don't need this kind of exclusivity and greediness, we all need to be working together to improve the negative perception most people have towards it.  And if this wasn't viewed BADLY by the MAJORITY of the gaming community, then why did Riot need to BLATANTLY LIE about it?

If you honestly want to say that blatantly lying to your loyal community is not immoral, then you are morally bankrupt in my view.

As I said, I have no problem with what Riot attempted to do.  I'd love for them to come out and show the entire gaming world how greedy and pathetic they really are.  The real moral crime here is to try to portray themselves as something they are not, then lie to protect that facade.  If an individual person did this, we would consider that person to be immoral; so why is it okay if a COMPANY does it?

OH BECAUSE LOTS OF COMPANIES DO IT.

Oh and by the way, I don't watch TV, or listen to the Radio, or to pretty much any of the garbage the media spits out, and I protest it whenever possible.
Title: Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
Post by: chemical_art on September 07, 2012, 01:59:12 AM
Morality ! = Law

Morality is arbitrary, law is equal. Law and morality can both be corrupted. Just because the functioning of law today is bad doesn't mean it should be thrown out, and shouldn't be ignored.

Video games when they were made to now have always been exclusive on some level, whether it being forced to develop them on game platforms, developers being contracted to only work with certain platforms, and publishers wanting to make money and keep ownership of studios. If it weren't for this in the first place though, it would lagged far behind if not developed at all. Today games can be made with Kickstarters and that is glorious, but without the roots of companies both wanting to make money while providing a product the games would not have gotten the funding at the start.

Sports of all sort have multiple levels, from casual people playing it to professionals who obey certain rules from a league, union, or other provider. E-sports is operating in the same environment of these other sports. If you have problem with the environment, you might as well hate all professional sports. In which case, nothing is stopping you from watching non-payed players.

Riot may or may not be lying, because I'm still not sure they do it or if they denied it. I've seen one post from one employee saying they don't do it. Was that person authorized to speak for the company on that matter? This I don't know honestly, he says he's VP of sports but I don't know what that entitles him to. Does he decide contracts, or is that another department? This reminds of that discussion of why small companies can respond fast while big ones cannot. Because while the smaller ones know each other and their products to respond, big companies have divided labor so the left hand and the right hand need a brain to talk to each other, metaphorically.

Until there is evidence rather then accusations, there is no "blatant lie". Accusations ! = evidence.

All my arguments that lots of companies do something is trying to imply something else:

IF you boycott a company for something they do because you don't like it, but partake in other companies that have the same thing, then you are not changing much of anything; you are using the thing you don't like as an excuse, or you don't have the conviction to fully through. So if you think Riot is doing something disgusting, in this case exclusivity, you should follow through and hate other exclusives. DotA 2 is exclusive to Steam  ;)