Author Topic: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition  (Read 33441 times)

Offline RCIX

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Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
« Reply #90 on: August 16, 2012, 04:05:16 PM »
DotA asks you to literally do 1/10th of what you do in Warcraft 3, and you're saying that it's more complex

LoL takes DotA, and simplifies it to an extreme degree, making it even easier and less complex than even DotA, which is already a massively simpler and less complex version of Warcraft 3.  LoL, as far as strategy games go (MOBA/ARTS games are based on the RTS genre after all), is very simple.
I seriously doubt that stock Warcraft heroes have anywhere near the complexity in hero mechanics or fancy item stuff that DotA adds, never mind all of the map features. :P

Would you say Starcraft is a less complex strategy game because it has less focus on the "strategy" parts than C&C, which in turn has less focus on strategy over tactics than the SupCom series?
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
« Reply #91 on: August 16, 2012, 04:12:28 PM »


Though the cartoony graphics,

So movies like watership down , or games planetary annhilation or team fortress 2 are more child like because of their animation style?

characters straight out of a Disney movie like Annie and Teemo,

Watership Down is book/ movies about bunnies, yet none would say it is for anything short of teenagers.

 abundance of huge-breasted young women

If anything, that caters to any male except the very youngest.

and WoW-based leveling system

Why is that child like? Is it the xp system? Or the fact you get abilities as you level up? How is DotA 2 any different?

, all seem to be strong evidence in my favor :D

I understand your point. But none of it decisively proves it. I could argue that the needless swearing in DotA 2 is not meant to appeal to adults but to appear edgy and appeal to younger people. What matters is how the things are in the big picture. Or more specifically, how the pieces as a whole interact.

However, I will contest your point that LoL is "magnitudes" more complex than almost any other game out there.  DotA itself only piggybacked off of the Warcraft 3 hero mechanics.  In Warcraft 3, you're asked to control not 1 hero...but 3.  Three heroes, while building a base, scouting the map, buying new items, killing neutral camps, AND CONTROLLING AN ARMY.

So FPS shooter games, where you control one character and don't buy your items are also less complex still? I don't follow. LoL and DotA 2 are complex because as a PvP game the magnitude of player comps and item combinitions, in addition to precise keyboard and mouse interaction.

DotA asks you to literally do 1/10th of what you do in Warcraft 3, and you're saying that it's more complex

LoL takes DotA, and simplifies it to an extreme degree, making it even easier and less complex than even DotA, which is already a massively simpler and less complex version of Warcraft 3.  LoL, as far as strategy games go (MOBA/ARTS games are based on the RTS genre after all), is very simple.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 04:19:04 PM by chemical_art »
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Offline Diazo

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Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
« Reply #92 on: August 16, 2012, 04:55:38 PM »
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I would (initially at least) be playing as a solo queue in random pug games. How much time (reading the wiki, playing games against bots, etc.) would I need to not suck?
How long would it take for you to be decent outside of a bot game?  1 bot game every day for 3 months, 1 real game every day for 1 month (prepare to lose constantly), or several bot games a day for a month.

Ugh, nope. That puts the nail in the coffin.

I simply don't have the time to commit that long to a single game.

Does not matter how fun the game is if I never make it to the "I no longer suck" stage.

D.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
« Reply #93 on: August 16, 2012, 05:13:11 PM »
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I seriously doubt that stock Warcraft heroes have anywhere near the complexity in hero mechanics or fancy item stuff that DotA adds
Maybe you missed the part where you have to control 3?  3 heroes by the way, that each have their own 6-sized item slot...So if you've having trouble using your 6 slots in DotA, think of how a professional WC3 player must feel.

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never mind all of the map features. :P
What map features, exactly, make DotA more complicated?  Your "army" controls itself for you.  You play on the exact same map every time, where a WC3 players has to learn the layout of dozens of maps.  The shops are always in the same location, where in a WC3 map they're always in different locations, doing different things.  In DotA, the mercenary camps are pretty similar and predictible every time, where in WC3 they vary wildly every game, etc. etc.

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Would you say Starcraft is a less complex strategy game because it has less focus on the "strategy" parts than C&C, which in turn has less focus on strategy over tactics than the SupCom series?
You would first have to convince me that C&C has more strategy than Starcraft, of which I don't think you could.  Many of the units in C&C were just flat out useless in multiplayer, or at least completely underpowered compared to others, so your options were pretty small.  In Starcraft, every unit has an important role, if you know how to use it wisely.

Besides, a lot of people think that tactical and strategic games are mutually exclusive - not so.  A game can have a heavy focus on tactics and micromanagement, and still have a great bit of grand strategy as well.  Claiming otherwise is like saying a Ferarri can't be fast and elegant too.

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So movies like watership down , or games planetary annhilation or team fortress 2 are more child like because of their animation style?
Team Fortress 2 seems to target a pretty childlike audience to me, it's certainly not a very deep game in my experience.  I haven't played Planetary Annihilation so I can't comment, and I've never seen watership down.

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Watership Down is book/ movies about bunnies, yet none would say it is for anything short of teenagers.
I've never heard of Watership Down before, but I have read George Orwell's Animal Farm.

However, to compare a literary masterpiece using childish themes to make profound adult messages, to Teemo and Annie, is somewhat hilarous to me.

I once had a discussion with a forum full of people who were attempting to convince me that My Little Pony, the most blatantly innocent child-targetting cartoon T.V. show ever, was actually made for adults because of its deep adult messages hidden intricately inside its themes.  I get the sneaking suspicion that you would have been on the opposite side of that discussion as well :P

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If anything, that caters to any male except the very youngest.
It caters to immature males, who still have a very childlike interpretation of how a woman should act and dress.

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Why is that child like? Is it the xp system? Or the fact you get abilities as you level up? How is DotA 2 any different?
As with most grindy RPGs, WoW gives the illusion of progress by "leveling" your character up, while you as a person don't improve at all.  League of Legends is doing the same thing.  They've tricked people into thinking they're improving in a meaningful well with levels, skills, champion unlocks, runes, and masteries.  DotA doesn't have to do that, you KNOW you've improved because you can see such a huge difference in the way you play and the outcomes of every new game.

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I understand your point. But none of it decisively proves it.
Of course it doesn't, which is why I prefaced that whole part with, "it's just my opinion".

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So FPS shooter games, where you control one character and don't buy your items are also less complex still?
Absolutely.  The skill in most FPS games doesn't come from their complexity, but from your own personal skill.  Most FPS games are very easy to pick up and learn, but take a long time to master.  The "skills" required to play FPS games are twitch reflexes, knowing the map layouts, teamwork, and a general understanding of the game by experiencing it a lot.  None of these skills are particularly complex, they just take time to develop.  That's pretty much how I feel about LoL as well.

Anybody could become a decent Call of Duty or Halo player if they devoted enough time to it, not everybody could become a good Starcraft 2 player, even if they tried.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 05:15:37 PM by Wingflier »
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
« Reply #94 on: August 16, 2012, 05:29:52 PM »
Too drunk to respond at the moment Wingflier but I will say this.

A horse is a horse. And ponies are ponies. And while My Little Pony can be enjoyed by adults it is made for young children.
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
« Reply #95 on: August 16, 2012, 05:49:37 PM »
After a bit more reading.

I don't want to get into a discussion about the line between a child and an adult. I am strongly getting the vibe we have different ideas of what that is, and seeing as no where anywhere can there be a concrete distinction of what criteria exactly that line happens it is not something that can be resolved, so I will bow out.

As for the illusion of progress, it is not an illusion. On a factual basis your character gets stronger. Whether you as a player  occurs or not is different. If you have a problem with it I feel sorry for you when play RPGs, for it is literally a stable of the genre. Including AVWW.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
« Reply #96 on: August 16, 2012, 06:28:06 PM »
*shrug* I don't like most RPGs for that reason.  Some RPGs have a moderate level of personal skill involved, most don't.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
« Reply #97 on: August 16, 2012, 06:52:48 PM »
*shrug* I don't like most RPGs for that reason.  Some RPGs have a moderate level of personal skill involved, most don't.
I commend Valkyrie Profile to you (the first one; the second one also to some extent).

Not a massive skill ceiling, but the difference between "just learning the combat system" and "master of the combat system" is pretty huge, both in terms of pre-battle decisions, in-battle-decisions, and in-battle reflexes (with the "twitch" parts neatly concentrated into 3-4 second bursts, not the whole battle).

I could go on, but that would be off-topic, and we never do that here ;)
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Offline LaughingThesaurus

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Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
« Reply #98 on: August 16, 2012, 07:38:32 PM »
I could go on, but that would be off-topic, and we never do that here ;)

That poor old update thread for AI War...

Offline RCIX

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Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
« Reply #99 on: August 16, 2012, 08:57:47 PM »
I could go on, but that would be off-topic, and we never do that here ;)

That poor old update thread for AI War...
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
« Reply #100 on: August 16, 2012, 09:01:47 PM »
I could go on, but that would be off-topic, and we never do that here ;)

That poor old update thread for AI War...
Don't make me pull out the pancakes!
Ah, the main deciding factor between League and DotA2: which one has a Wonder Chef hero with a cleaver auto-attack, a syrup-puddle aoe-snare, a bacon-based self-heal/attack-steroid, and a massive 4-stage delayed-aoe ult that drops 4 massive pancakes on the target spot?
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
« Reply #101 on: August 16, 2012, 09:09:29 PM »
I could go on, but that would be off-topic, and we never do that here ;)

That poor old update thread for AI War...
Don't make me pull out the pancakes!
Ah, the main deciding factor between League and DotA2: which one has a Wonder Chef hero with a cleaver auto-attack, a syrup-puddle aoe-snare, a bacon-based self-heal/attack-steroid, and a massive 4-stage delayed-aoe ult that drops 4 massive pancakes on the target spot?

give it some taste buds as a pet and I'm sold!
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Offline LaughingThesaurus

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Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
« Reply #102 on: August 16, 2012, 09:29:41 PM »
I'm beginning to love this forum.

Offline Cyborg

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Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
« Reply #103 on: August 16, 2012, 09:47:19 PM »
The elitism around Dota is just that, and it does not accurately reflect the depths of both titles.

Maybe both games can be deep, competitive moba's! Olive branch anyone?

And somebody mentioned pancakes.
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Offline madcow

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Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
« Reply #104 on: August 16, 2012, 09:58:31 PM »
Breaking the DoTA LoL debate. Have any of you tried awesomenauts? It sounds fairly awesome, speaking as a non-Moba lover of 2D platforming games.

 

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