Author Topic: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition  (Read 33437 times)

Offline Wingflier

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Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
« Reply #45 on: August 14, 2012, 07:51:01 PM »
It'll be really exciting to watch I'm sure.  16 teams from all over the world come to compete for a prize pool of 1.6 million dollars.

I think the most exciting thing about it (personally) is how each different country plays.  There are "metagames" for each national community, so you see this huge clash of playstyles that's really interesting to watch.

Heroes that haven't been used at all for one country, may be another country's top pickup, so you really see both teams reeling to adapt to the new strategy they've never faced.  The Chinese are known for their passive, hard carry and farming-centric playstyle.  They'll try to avoid battle as much as possible in favor of powerful late-game pushes with a hero (or heroes) that have basically achieved godlike status and kill everything in sight.

The Europeans are pretty famous for their aggressive, gank and push oriented styles.  European games tend to be action packed, with both teams constantly vying for dominance throughout the match, continually looking for the perfect opportunities to catch an opponent off guard and then use that to their advantage.

The Americans (from what I've seen) tend more towards a team-based, hero clash lineup.  After they early phase they'll stick together as a team, and through their superior coordination (and synergistic picks), win major battles against the enemy team, or push if they're ignored.

Of course these are just templates really, there's major variation in every nation.  These just seem to be the standard fare, and it's awesome to watch them all clash!
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Offline RCIX

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Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
« Reply #46 on: August 14, 2012, 07:56:47 PM »
side from the small gold cost, what is the drawback to Oracles?  I don't know how invis heroes are now in LoL, but when I played they were useless.  If you want to talk to 1 company about improving the quality of game for invis characters, it's most likely Riot :P

Ah, but they did! Eve's stealth serves to give her a very interesting niche and makes her a really good ganker (avoids non-truesight wards, can't be seen by enemy champions till she's close, regenerates mana in stealth). It has degrees of counterplay and some back and forth, and less of "someone is useless, who exactly depends on whether stealth is being properly countered" that you see on the pubstompy invis heroes.

When I was thinking of stealth characters, I was thinking of Riki, which seems to be left in for I don't even know what reason. That's the sort of thing I'm talking about when I say it seems like obstacles are deliberately being left in new players' way.

(other characters have tactical stealth which Riot is fine with. She's also a touch underpowered at the moment, but now they can fix this without causing non-pros all over the world to cower in fear)
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
« Reply #47 on: August 14, 2012, 08:59:42 PM »
Rikimaru hasn't been used much in competitive play recently, but he is actually a really strong pick.  Used correctly, his permanent stealth ability is not good for killing enemy heroes like noobs in pubs think, in competitive play his constant invis gives an unparalleled level of map control.  The enemy team, aware of his ever-likely presence, has to constantly fear him, and therefore always be on alert.  It disrupts the farm and normally playing patterns, especially of junglers, a place he can go (and with an ally) find a suitable candidate to kill.

Contrary to popular knowledge, he's not just a solo hero-killer, he's also pretty powerful in team fights.  His smoke bomb ability causes enemies to be silenced, slowed, and miss many of their attacks in a large area.  Combined with someone like Dark Seer, Enigma, Magnus, or other heroes who can pull the enemy team into a small area, it can disable the entire enemy team while they attempt to walk out of it.

So I guess what I'm saying is, SA's potential comes from more than being invisible and killing heroes.  He actually contributes a lot to the team if used correctly.  I would say he contributes a lot more than say, Bounty Hunter, who more specifically geared as an assassin than is SA, and who actually gives his team bonus gold for every kill while tracked (making his role fit his name :P).

I haven't ever heard good things about Eve, even after her 3 or 4 remakes.  I have no idea what her latest remake is, or if it's any good.  It sounds like she still needs some buffs.

What about Twitch and Shaco?  Are there any more invis heroes I'm missing?
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Offline RCIX

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Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
« Reply #48 on: August 14, 2012, 09:45:24 PM »
Vayne has ministealth on her ult+tumble, Wukong has ministealth on his Decoy, Talon has small stealth on his ult, and Rengar has a "medium duration" stealth on his ult as well (7 seconds). I'm just not a fan of long-term stealth mechanics (in this or other games ;p).
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
« Reply #49 on: August 14, 2012, 10:18:16 PM »
What's wrong with long-term stealth mechanics?  I think it makes things a lot more...well interesting.
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
« Reply #50 on: August 14, 2012, 10:33:25 PM »
Riot on stealth.  There are some much longer in-depth posts, but the gist is: long-term stealth is better against new players than pros, and so to make the champion competitive at the pro level requires a character so strong that they stomp new players horribly.  So they wanted to find a mechanic that wasn't so toxic to lower skilled players.

They were very conservative on the Eve remake, so she's fairly weak right now.  She'll probably get a balance tweak on some numbers in 2-4 weeks.

Offline Lancefighter

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Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
« Reply #51 on: August 14, 2012, 10:45:34 PM »
Clinkz was picked up in the recent The Defense finals, by Mousesports against Complexity gaming. Black, Mouz's carry player, tends to like picking clinkz, but he is the only one I really see doing it. Mouz only won that game Because of really strong teamfight initiations, and good play in the part of the dark seer more than because clinkz was particularly strong.

On long term stealth - the point is that long term stealth is ALSO usually tactical stealth, an escape, and very strong positioning tool, against people who dont have detection.
Look at current rikimaru, clinkz, bounty hunter - They can stay invisible 100% of the time (closer to 98%, but really 100%). This stealth both allows them to move around the map safely, in the strategic aspect. They can literally appear anywhere o the map at any point. This is similar to old TF and Pantheon - Their ability to strategically move around the map is strong.

They also have tactical stealth - They can move around the battlefield mostly safely, allowing them to position without the enemies knowing where they are. They can use their stealth to instantly dissapear. They can use it as an escape, initiation, etc without too much issue. This is similar to current shaco, vayne, and to a point akali.

Long term stealth is a problem because it is both. It is an escape, it makes people safe, and it allows people to do whatever they want tactically without issue.

If the other team doesnt have vision.

If the other team does have vision, an entire spell of theirs becomes useless. Skeleton walk becomes an ok movespeed steroid that breaks if you do anything. Riki's permanent invisibility is just plain useless. Brood's webs are just a poor hp regen mechanic, and bounty hunter's might as well just be a steroid on his next autoattack. Honestly pretty terrible spells if the other team has vision. Their base stats are also usually pretty low to make up for their amazing escape/etc.

As I said about kat - They have a really good best case, and a pretty bad worst case.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
« Reply #52 on: August 14, 2012, 11:30:08 PM »
Quote
On long term stealth - the point is that long term stealth is ALSO usually tactical stealth, an escape, and very strong positioning tool, against people who dont have detection.
Look at current rikimaru, clinkz, bounty hunter - They can stay invisible 100% of the time (closer to 98%, but really 100%). This stealth both allows them to move around the map safely, in the strategic aspect. They can literally appear anywhere o the map at any point. This is similar to old TF and Pantheon - Their ability to strategically move around the map is strong.
Heh, that's interesting because as far as I know (could be wrong), TF and Pantheon haven't been picked up much since their global ult nerfs.  TF used to be my favorite hero, but since his ult nerf, he's become such a subpar ranged carry.  His range is so low, he has no escape mechanism, and he's pretty much outcarried by any other ranged carry in the game.

This is what I'm talking about, Riot doesn't ask their players to get better, they just nerf the game because their players whine about it. 

You think TF's ult was bad?!  HAH, in DotA 2 Nature's Prophet can teleport anywhere on the map, and that's just a regular skill!  (With a low cooldown I might add)

That's nothing.  Wisp can tether himself to somebody, and take both himself, and a powerful ally, anywhere on the map for 12 seconds!  So not only do you have plenty of time to get a few kills, but if the enemy team comes to react, the ult ends and you both go back to a safe place.

http://www.dota2wiki.com/wiki/Wisp

This is what I'm talking about.  LoL says...oh no, we don't want heroes to have global teleports, it makes the game too harddddd.  DotA 2 says, noobs crying about global teleports?!  hug it, let's make a hero that can teleport himself AND an ally into battle and wreak havoc. 

And what do the DotA players do?  They get better.  They start warding more, sticking together so they can't get caught out, carrying tp scrolls so they can help allies, etc.

Some of them quit sure, but in the end you've made the game better, and more appealing to people who want to improve at the game, instead of having the game cater to them.  It's still a very popular game, even with all the hardcore mechanics.  It just appeals to a different audience.

Besides, invis heroes aren't hard to counter.  Literally all it takes is one person on your team to take the initiative and buy invis counters or wards.  You say invis heroes can appear anywhere, but they can't appear anywhere.  Invis heroes are carries, as such, they need farm.  If you see them farming on the map, you know you're safe.  If you don't see them, you're potentially in danger, but they're missing farm.  That's how you balance these heroes.  Every gank of theirs has to be successful, if it's not they're just missing creep farm, and potentially dying in the process.

Yes, most invis heroes are a niche role, and have a snowballing effect, but I don't think that's bad at all.  It's a very risk:reward choice for your team to make.  If the risk pays off, you win the game.  If it doesn't, you made a mistake.  I don't think Stealth Assassin is useless in competitive play, I'll put money that we'll see him at least a few time in The Interational 2.  He may or may not do that well, but it will be exciting to see him all the same :P
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
« Reply #53 on: August 14, 2012, 11:44:35 PM »
Theres a reason I referenced old tf and panth ults instead of their current incarnations. Tf currently isnt that bad of a pick (and calling him a ranged carry is INCREDIBLY out of date..), hes just not amazing. He is still picked for his semi-global presence in ganks.

I also spent the last half hour prolonging a game of dota with furion. Porting around, shoving towers with trees, and pressing r because why not. The game was over since the 10 minute mark, but because of my splitpushing and being a dick, it lasted far too long.

I dont supposed youve read the dota patchlogs on Lycanthrope? He has been nerfed quite a bit since release. Like. A lot. I believe at one point his wolves had a bash. He is still PERMANENTLY BANNED in competitive play. Seriously, I havent seen a competitive game of dota that did not include a lycan ban (and similarly, a naga ban). Similarly, dark seer wall is INCREDIBLY strong, and a very common ban/first pick. Prophet himself is often a common ban as well. Dota players arent getting *better*, the ban pool just changes.

Then again, a game of dota has 5 bans on each side. A game of league has 3, and thats only recently.

And finally, there is a reason league doesnt like global stuff. Riot has stated they feel a lot of things arent fun to play against - Do you enjoy playing against a prophet who is constantly pushing and pressuring towers? I know its not very fun. I could feel myself being a dick while doing that. League is honestly designed around a more fun experience for players, whereas playing dota always feels like a challenge, often because I feel I am fighting against the mechanics.

If youll remember, chen can teleport a hero back to base. If you time that properly, a pudge can hook a unit all the way back to his fountain. Does that really sound fun? Its not. Thats why it doesnt happen in league. Not because its OP or anything - Because it just isnt fun.
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Offline RCIX

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Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
« Reply #54 on: August 14, 2012, 11:55:20 PM »
That's nothing.  Wisp can tether himself to somebody, and take both himself, and a powerful ally, anywhere on the map for 12 seconds!  So not only do you have plenty of time to get a few kills, but if the enemy team comes to react, the ult ends and you both go back to a safe place.

/all Hey Guys, who do you want me to feed to you?

*tethers*
*teleports*

ally: FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
This is what I'm talking about.  LoL says...oh no, we don't want heroes to have global teleports, it makes the game too harddddd.  DotA 2 says, noobs crying about global teleports?!  hug it, let's make a hero that can teleport himself AND an ally into battle and wreak havoc. 
No, actually. it makes the game too easy. Losing? npnp just tp to tower, shove it down, beam back before they catch you, repeat till you win

(oh, by the way, sounding patronizing when imitating riot isn't helping your case of not trying to upset anyone =p)

Yes, most invis heroes are a niche role, and have a snowballing effect, but I don't think that's bad at all.  It's a very risk:reward choice for your team to make.  If the risk pays off, you win the game.  If it doesn't, you made a mistake.  I don't think Stealth Assassin is useless in competitive play, I'll put money that we'll see him at least a few time in The Interational 2.  He may or may not do that well, but it will be exciting to see him all the same :P
It's incredibly binary, which isn't all that interesting as a mechanic.
Long term stealth is a problem because it is both. It is an escape, it makes people safe, and it allows people to do whatever they want tactically without issue.

If the other team doesnt have vision.

If the other team does have vision, an entire spell of theirs becomes useless. Skeleton walk becomes an ok movespeed steroid that breaks if you do anything. Riki's permanent invisibility is just plain useless. Brood's webs are just a poor hp regen mechanic, and bounty hunter's might as well just be a steroid on his next autoattack. Honestly pretty terrible spells if the other team has vision. Their base stats are also usually pretty low to make up for their amazing escape/etc.

And finally, there is a reason league doesnt like global stuff. Riot has stated they feel a lot of things arent fun to play against - Do you enjoy playing against a prophet who is constantly pushing and pressuring towers? I know its not very fun. I could feel myself being a dick while doing that. League is honestly designed around a more fun experience for players, whereas playing dota always feels like a challenge, often because I feel I am fighting against the mechanics.
^is the difference between the two in a nutshell
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
« Reply #55 on: August 15, 2012, 12:07:26 AM »
Unfortunately, the beta DotA 2 is just to laggy for me right now. The game hiccups for over a second once every other minute or so. The game just doesn't feel refined. I thought it was maybe me since my internet had changed since I moved.

To test, I then loaded up some LoL. I went through a 50 minute game with maybe 5 1/3 a sec or less hiccups, and 1 one second hiccup.

Never mind the fact I was reminded that part of what makes LoL addicting sometimes is that with somewhat balanced teams that are not ultra echelon in skill the game can swing back in forth. LoL has several mechanisms to allow the potential of a losing team to rally to victory if it can manage to win two or three team fights or wages successful gorilla warfare. Which was exactly what my team did. We fell behind and it was forever before a teamfight started but despite being quite behind we waged successful team fights. As MVP I just waged critical disables and continuous spell barrages as Veigar despite him being a second or even third string for me in picks.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
« Reply #56 on: August 15, 2012, 12:47:31 AM »
Quote
No, actually. it makes the game too easy. Losing? npnp just tp to tower, shove it down, beam back before they catch you, repeat till you win
This is horrible caricature of what Wisp does on your team.  If it were really that easy to recover from a losing game with Wisp, you would see him competitive play constantly.  As it is, I hardly see him at all.

For one thing, towers in DotA have backdoor protection, so you can't just kill them instantly before anyone shows up like in LoL.  "Fortify" is a core mechanic of the game so it gives them immunity long enough for your team to show up and push them away.

Secondly, if Wisp isn't getting useful ults, then the hero is a dead weight on your team.  He does almost no damage and is quite literally the squishiest hero in the game.  Everytime you make a Wisp waste his ult (or prevent him from getting a good opportunity to use it), you're turning the game more into a 4v5.

The point is though, that heroes like Wisp and Furion open up an entirely new dimension of gameplay that LoL doesn't even have.

Quote
(oh, by the way, sounding patronizing when imitating riot isn't helping your case of not trying to upset anyone =p)
Sorry, but that's basically their attitude in a nutshell.  Let's not add anything too hard to the game, it'll make people upset.  The sad thing is that they'll remove "hard" mechanics from the game EVEN at the cost of the heroes that relied on them.  If TF and Pantheon have been good since that gigantic nerf, please let me know.  When I played, both of them had been crippled beyond repair.

You can say that Riot doesn't like to add confusing mechanics to the game, but those skills weren't confusing at all.  TF revealed the entire enemy team, so you knew what was about to happen, and his cards preceded him.  Pantheon created a huge circle on the ground for several seconds before he fell.

NEITHER of these heroes were overpowered in competitive play, they were just pub stompers and people were crying.

LoL balances like World of Warcraft, the game it was taken from.  LoL is basically a hybrid of WoW and DotA.  The map and idea are taken from DotA, but the runes, levels, masteries, and cartoony graphics were all taken straight out of World of Warcraft.  They knew they could appeal to the WoW audience, being (at the time) 11-12 million player strong, and they did.  However, they had to balance LoL like Blizzard balances WoW - namely, if something is too hard, and people complain, we nerf it.  This is the reason why invis heroes (with long-term invis) are so underused in competitive play, even WITH oracles, which is far superior of an invis detection item than anything found in DotA.  Riot can't ask their players to get better, they'd rather make the game worse (in my opinion worse).

Quote
It's incredibly binary, which isn't all that interesting as a mechanic.
Heh, well I guess you think Poker is binary too, since that game has a huge amount of risk:reward involved.  Just because there is a high potential of risk:reward, doesn't mean the hero can't come out as a mediocre force on your team in the end, they just have the potential to snowball one way or the other.

For example, even if Stealth Assassin has no farm, he's still a large aoe silence, slow, and attack evasion for your team.  That can be incredibly useful in a team fight if used right.  Spider is fairly useless without farm, but she farms SO FAST because her nuke makes little spiderlings, which create more spiderlings, and before know it you've got an army full of spiders helping you farm.  Spider can recover from a bad early game if your team can keep the opponent busy enough to leave her alone, she farms fast.

Quote
And finally, there is a reason league doesnt like global stuff. Riot has stated they feel a lot of things arent fun to play against
What is this?  Who decides what's fun to play against? 

"FUN" is such a nebulous term.  And when we are discussing what's fun, which audience are we targeting? 

What's fun for a new player is vastly different from what's fun for a pro player.  When discussing "Fun", it seems implied that Riot is talking about the enjoyment of their game for the worst players possible.  The logic seems to be "If this isn't fun for the worst players possible, then we don't want it in the game".  How is that good design philosophy?

Personally, I love playing against a Furion, it keeps the game fast paced and exciting the whole time.  Because he's constantly pushing, you're constantly defending, almost like a tower defense minigame inside the actual game.  Also, because he's constantly pushing the lanes, your carries can farm much more safely since they don't ever have to worry about the lane pushing itself.  Eventually, you catch him, or his teammates off-guard, and you suddenly get the opportunity to push back.

Quote
I could feel myself being a dick while doing that.
It's not being a dick to use a hero the way it was designed to be used.

Enigma's ultimate can catch 5 enemy heroes into and stun them long enough for your team to get a genocide.  You shouldn't feel bad if you get that opportunity, in fact you should probably be proud of yourself ;p (and the enemy team should feel bad for allowing that to happen).

Once again, I don't intend to hurt people's feelings.  I just honestly get the impression that Riot's "anti-fun" and "game too hard" philosophy targets the worst players possible.  As I said, what's fun for the worst and best players is completely different.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 01:01:02 AM by Wingflier »
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
« Reply #57 on: August 15, 2012, 02:18:22 AM »
Mostly players find something not fun to play against.

Usually there is a certain degree of respect for players if they are actually able to do something - Like find an opening for a 5man black hole. Against a prophet.. Good job, you can teleport, spawn trees, amove them towards our throne, and randomly ult. Youre such a pro player.


Maybe if I played battlefury carries more often, I could sit and afk farm treants for a half hour, and I might find it nice. But I usually dont play battlefury carries, so I usually dont have an amazing means to clear massed treants+creeps. I would even go as far as saying I dont usually play carries at all, making clearing masses of trees very difficult. You cant reasonably expect your battlefury carry to be able to be in as many lanes as furion can. Unless you have a phantom lancer who is good at farming all three lanes an the jungle with radiance, at least.

So when I am not a hero that can clear waves of retarded treants, I really dont find playing against a prophet fun at all. I just feel helpless - We cant really afford to do anything as a team because treants will push down all of our towers, and we cant afford to sit around and do nothing because treants will still push down our towers. Sure, if prophet doesnt end up taking a rax because we were busy trying to teamfight, and the game gets late enough, our carry will outfarm their team.. But you dont really see that happening in pub play.

Which brings us back to the original point - It wasnt fun to play against.

Remember old sivir? Her ricochet toggle, ult aura, and aoe nuke? There was a point during league's development that Riot wanted games to end sooner. At the 20 minute point, cannon creeps would spawn every other wave instead of every third wave. During this period, a mere 2 or 3 weeks of time, I played absolutely nothing but sivir. I did not bother showing up to teamfights. I built multiple bloodthirsters. I pushed. I did absolutely nothing but push. I could see creeps in the river, and have them all the way to an inhibitor before people reacted to me. At which point I would recall, and teleport elsewhere. I won something like 90% of my games those two weeks.

Was it fun to play against? Well, I dunno. Nobody ever thought to do it back. But riot nerfed the hell out of cannon creeps. Riot also went and nerfed the hell out of sivir. No longer is she master splitpusher, mistress of the sidelane.. Shes just an ordinary carry now. Hardly recognizable as what she once was. I've no doubt that my threat of showing up with teleport in any lane, ulting, and shoving down a tower in seconds time paralyzed many teams. And natures prophet is worse.

Back then, I didn't really feel it was a particularly dickish thing. No, the dickish part was my calling mid each game, and absolutely dominating anyone I was up against (battle mistress style.. You may call me mistress, but only from your knees)

However, when I played furion.. I didn't feel like it was particularly fair at all. I could basically do whatever I wanted, porting around, shoving trees up inner turrets, etc. There was no skill involved, barely any positioning to worry about, and only minor strategic thought in it. I spammed my ult off cd, because why not?

If I were to land a 5 man black hole, I definately would feel more proud and accomplished. A black hole usually has more effect on a teamfight (and landing a 5man one should basically be gg), but it also is a lot more difficult. It will probably take a lot as far as pre-fight and during fight positioning to land it. I'm going to feel more proud. And if it happens to me.. well. There is incredibly easy counterplay. Dont stand 5 man next to each other. There should be someone with a ranged disable at the back, being able to break it. Its something anyone can do, as opposed to counterpushing a furion.

Anyway, I've taken way too long to write basically nothing I havent written before. And I still havent stopped listening to this on repeat: http://soundcloud.com/pablo-vega-music/a-war-worth-fighting
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Offline RCIX

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Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
« Reply #58 on: August 15, 2012, 03:12:04 AM »
Quote
No, actually. it makes the game too easy. Losing? npnp just tp to tower, shove it down, beam back before they catch you, repeat till you win
This is horrible caricature of what Wisp does on your team.  If it were really that easy to recover from a losing game with Wisp, you would see him competitive play constantly.  As it is, I hardly see him at all.

For one thing, towers in DotA have backdoor protection, so you can't just kill them instantly before anyone shows up like in LoL.  "Fortify" is a core mechanic of the game so it gives them immunity long enough for your team to show up and push them away.

Secondly, if Wisp isn't getting useful ults, then the hero is a dead weight on your team.  He does almost no damage and is quite literally the squishiest hero in the game.  Everytime you make a Wisp waste his ult (or prevent him from getting a good opportunity to use it), you're turning the game more into a 4v5.

The point is though, that heroes like Wisp and Furion open up an entirely new dimension of gameplay that LoL doesn't even have.
TF is still a great AP mid used plenty in competitive play. Panth is... less so, but for unrelated reasons (he falls off hard unless fed, like most all* physical casters) And yes, when his ults were global they were exactly what I described. Dota just has no qualms attaching enough downsides to a champion that he absolutely sucks without good TPs (or in the case of Furion, not even that)

*technically not all physical but how often do people land a panth ult dead center or use it as a primary, on-demand nuke? :P

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It's incredibly binary, which isn't all that interesting as a mechanic.
Heh, well I guess you think Poker is binary too, since that game has a huge amount of risk:reward involved.  Just because there is a high potential of risk:reward, doesn't mean the hero can't come out as a mediocre force on your team in the end, they just have the potential to snowball one way or the other.
I dare you to find more than a couple examples of that happening. And poker has mechanics built around the high risk-reward philosophy. :3

LoL balances like World of Warcraft, the game it was taken from.  LoL is basically a hybrid of WoW and DotA.  The map and idea are taken from DotA, but the runes, levels, masteries, and cartoony graphics were all taken straight out of World of Warcraft.  They knew they could appeal to the WoW audience, being (at the time) 11-12 million player strong, and they did.  However, they had to balance LoL like Blizzard balances WoW - namely, if something is too hard, and people complain, we nerf it.  This is the reason why invis heroes (with long-term invis) are so underused in competitive play, even WITH oracles, which is far superior of an invis detection item than anything found in DotA.  Riot can't ask their players to get better, they'd rather make the game worse (in my opinion worse).
What long-term invis heroes? They fixed them and made them better designs. Balancing still needs to happen, but now that's possible without "making the baddies cry" (still feelin that attitude pretty strong...)

"FUN" is such a nebulous term.  And when we are discussing what's fun, which audience are we targeting? 

What's fun for a new player is vastly different from what's fun for a pro player.  When discussing "Fun", it seems implied that Riot is talking about the enjoyment of their game for the worst players possible.  The logic seems to be "If this isn't fun for the worst players possible, then we don't want it in the game".  How is that good design philosophy?

Personally, I love playing against a Furion, it keeps the game fast paced and exciting the whole time.  Because he's constantly pushing, you're constantly defending, almost like a tower defense minigame inside the actual game.  Also, because he's constantly pushing the lanes, your carries can farm much more safely since they don't ever have to worry about the lane pushing itself.  Eventually, you catch him, or his teammates off-guard, and you suddenly get the opportunity to push back.
They're targeting the actual playerbase, not the top <10% (probably closer to 1% but I'm being generous). Something I admire more than STFU, RTFM, and "just counter with X" (you haven't said those but I know that most of the dota fanbase at present would be all too happy to tell me this if they read half of what I've said).

And average players don't particularly find that fun. Try and push mid? Lol, furion top shoving down a tower. Try and catch him? Too late, TP scroll out. Get back mid and oh look, he went bot. Rinse repeat till you can hope to land one of the longer-range stuns on him (if you were lucky and grabbed one of those) or he pushes everything down and you lose.



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I could feel myself being a dick while doing that.
It's not being a dick to use a hero the way it was designed to be used.

Enigma's ultimate can catch 5 enemy heroes into and stun them long enough for your team to get a genocide.  You shouldn't feel bad if you get that opportunity, in fact you should probably be proud of yourself ;p (and the enemy team should feel bad for allowing that to happen).
Because you (general you here) know most people hate dealing with pusher Furion, and are doing everything you can to do it anyway because "that's what wins", everyone having fun be darned. And what's worse? Most dota players (again, probably not you) do it just for that reason: to rub it in our faces and make us play a stupid minigame.

Once again, I don't intend to hurt people's feelings.  I just honestly get the impression that Riot's "anti-fun" and "game too hard" philosophy targets the worst players possible.  As I said, what's fun for the worst and best players is completely different.
Here's the core distinction:
 * League of Legends is a game as much as an esport, and Riot realizes this. Thus, they take care of their playerbase at large, and don't step on the little guy because "it's fine in the competitive scene".
 * Dota is esport first, which just so happens to be in game form. You'll only get a voice if you are the top 1% or so of players, and the appropriate response to making a mistake is "lol usobad" instead of "its k, do better next time" (often because there isn't a next time).

And like it or not, there IS a lot of variety and there IS a high pick/ban rate and all of the other diversity measures you want (except maybe lane comps). The only thing stopping em from busting a move right now and fixing major design issues is that the Season 2 final championship is coming up and they don't want to pull the rug out from under all their pro players.
However, when I played furion.. I didn't feel like it was particularly fair at all. I could basically do whatever I wanted, porting around, shoving trees up inner turrets, etc. There was no skill involved, barely any positioning to worry about, and only minor strategic thought in it. I spammed my ult off cd, because why not?
...This makes me want to try Furion. Off I go!
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 03:13:38 AM by RCIX »
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: League vs Dota Megabrawl: Arcen Games Edition
« Reply #59 on: August 15, 2012, 10:36:42 AM »
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Mostly players find something not fun to play against.
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If I were to land a 5 man black hole, I definately would feel more proud and accomplished. A black hole usually has more effect on a teamfight (and landing a 5man one should basically be gg), but it also is a lot more difficult. It will probably take a lot as far as pre-fight and during fight positioning to land it. I'm going to feel more proud. And if it happens to me.. well. There is incredibly easy counterplay. Dont stand 5 man next to each other. There should be someone with a ranged disable at the back, being able to break it. Its something anyone can do, as opposed to counterpushing a furion.
These two sentences contradict each other.

Riot would never add a mechanic that disables an entire enemy team, even if it is easily preventable by staying apart, or picking hard counters (like Silencer) to prevent it from anywhere on the map.  Yet you said yourself, there's a feeling of accomplishment for landing the black hole.  And if your whole team gets hit by it, you feel like you deserved it.

I'll bet you cash that there's someone out there right now that thinks black hole is the most retarded skill in the game, but that has absolutely no problem with Furion.  That is what I love about DotA, it doesn't care about you and what you want.  It will find your weaknesses as a player, and as a person, and it will exploit the hell out of them until you want to break your keyboard.  The weaker players will quit, and blame the game for being unfair or unbalanced, but the stronger players will stay, and grow, and learn to stop blaming the game and strengthen their own weaknesses.

I can't even remember, throughout these 9 years, how many times this game has made me scream and hate myself for making the smallest mistake; how many times I've considered quitting because of the ridiculous losing scenarios, how many times I've cursed the designers for their horrible balancing methods (though this was primarily S2, because S2 balance != balance).  But I can tell you, without a doubt, that it has made me a better person; not just in DotA, but in life as well.  Everytime I lost a game, this hatred swelled up within me, and I wanted to blame my team, my hero, IceFrog, and everyone else, but deep down inside, I knew that some of the blame belonged to me too.  I used to be one of those hateful ragers that everybody talks about, I would slam my teammates for making mistakes, and be an asshole just because I wanted to win so bad.  To me, DotA is a lot like life.  It doesn't care about you, it doesn't care about what you want.  It's going to beat you down, over, and over, and over again.  Then, it's going to kick you while you're down.  And laugh while it's kicking you.  But everytime you get back up, you'll be a little stronger.  Everytime you get defeated, you will have taken something profound with you.  You can't expect life to change to cater to you, you have to conquer life, that's the only you'll ever be successful.

I went from being one of the worst most hateful players I've ever known, to now being one of the kindest, gentlest, and understanding players.  I constantly give my team advice, direction, and ideas about how to win the game.  I call my lanes as much as possible, and let an ally know if they're about to get ganked.  Go into DotA 2 and look at my commendations, it I have many upvotes for all 4 - "Leadership", "Helpful", "Friendly" and "Forgiving".  But I would never have gotten this far if the game had never pushed me to my limits, never made me reconsider my own feelings and ideals, never not cared about what I personally wanted, but instead was designed for the wealth of the greater good.

Just like you get a feeling of accomplishment from catching 5 players with a black hole, so too will you get a sense of accomplishment when you finally understand how to counter Furion; what heroes to pick, what heroes to ask your team to pick (they will listen), and how to play every game.  If you stick with it long enough, you'll realize that it wasn't Furion that was the problem, it was you.  It wasn't the spoon that bent, but yourself ;p

Here are the DotA 2 general stats.  Furion has a 50.9% win ratio.  If he's as easy and overpowered as you claim him to be, it should be much higher than that no?  According to these stats, I'm surprised you aren't complaining about Ursa or Skeleton King instead.

http://stats.dota2.be/herostats

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I dare you to find more than a couple examples of that happening. And poker has mechanics built around the high risk-reward philosophy. :3
Sure, I see it all the time.  Spider often contributes only a mediocre amount to her team.  Even if she doesn't contribute much in team battles (due to lackluster farm), she contributes by pushing lanes really well, and offering a 40% slow and attack miss debuff to one opponent. 

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They're targeting the actual playerbase, not the top <10% (probably closer to 1% but I'm being generous).
Well it makes sense that the bottom 99% percent should want to be more like the top 1%, than for the top 1%, to be more like the bottom 99% doesn't it?

When you balance from the top down, you're asking players to get better.  When you balance from the bottom up, you're asking the best players to get worse.  This seems like an obvious choice to me.

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...This makes me want to try Furion. Off I go!
Good luck.  If anything, you'll get stomped, because Furion is not your weakness, some other hero is.  Every player has that hero in DotA, the one that they find disgustingly OP, that they want to quit playing for.  It's usually a different hero as well.

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Maybe if I played battlefury carries more often, I could sit and afk farm treants for a half hour, and I might find it nice. But I usually dont play battlefury carries, so I usually dont have an amazing means to clear massed treants+creeps. I would even go as far as saying I dont usually play carries at all, making clearing masses of trees very difficult. You cant reasonably expect your battlefury carry to be able to be in as many lanes as furion can. Unless you have a phantom lancer who is good at farming all three lanes an the jungle with radiance, at least.
Well carries aren't really the counter to Furion, I meant that the carries can farm more easily because the lanes are always pushed.  They rely on the rest of their team to prevent the towers from dying so they can continue farming.

It seems like you're missing an important role in DotA, probably because it doesn't exist in LoL.  In DotA you have all the normal roles - Carry, ganker, nuker, support, pusher, jungler, etc.

However, there's another very important role, Anti-Pusher, that is extremely important against heroes like Furion.  Anti-Pushers come in all shapes and sizes, but basically they have strong, spammable, AoE attacks that are good for clearing out creep waves quickly, to prevent towers from dying.

Here are some Anti-Pushers from every category:

Intelligence -
Lina
Puck
Windrunner
Shadow Shaman
Nature's Prophet
Tinker
Jakiro
Keeper of the Light (great anti-pusher, 500 damage huge aoe nuke that hits siege units :D om nom nom money)
Enigma
Necrolyte
Queen of Pain
Death Prophet
Pugna
Leshrac
Dark Seer

Strength -
Earthshaker (wonderful pick against Furion because his ultimate does more damage the more units there are.  If you blink in and ult an enemy team with Furion creeps it does batshit insane damage)
Tiny
Beastmaster
Alchemist
Brewmaster
Axe
Sand King
Tidehunter
Undying

Agility-
Juggernaught
Naga Siren
Luna
Shadow Fiend
Venomancer
Morphling

As you can see, Agility has the lowest number.  This is on purpose, your carry shouldn't be able to do everything.  A carry relies on his team to hold off the Furion waves until they can get farmed. 
Which brings me to my next point, one of the best counter to Furion is picking no carries at all.  Furion relies on pushing the game and ending it before your hard carries get farmed enough to make a difference.  If you pick a team full of a lot of pushers, anti-pushers, and gankers, you diminish his value and advantage by quite a lot.

Heroes that counter Furion specifically:

STR
Tiny - he's so squishy, kill him instantly with your combo
Earthshaker - the more enemies, the merrier
Huskar - catch him alone, kill him before he can even escape
Wisp - "Oh, you can travel anywhere over the map?  That's cool."
Pudge - GET OVERRRR HEREEEE
Slardar - with plenty of stuns and permanent visibility, it's hard for him to get away
Doombringer - Doom prevents him from escaping since he's silenced and taking massive damage.

AGI
Chaos Knight - Kill him before he escapes.
Anti-Mage - burn all his mana = useless.
Riki - Smoke Cloud means he can't teleport away.
Naga Siren - two skills that cancel his teleport, and you can kill him very quickly.
Bloodseeker - Rupture prevents him from running, Silence prevents him from escaping.
Nyx Assassin - kill him instantly.

INT
Windrunner - hilarious counter.  Windrunner shackles heroes to trees. Furion is usually surrounded by...trees.
Shadow Shaman - great anti pusher, can ward trap Furion with his ult, and has two ways to disable him for a long period of time so he can't escape.
Lion - Kill him quickly, 2 disables to prevent him from escaping.
Witch Doctor - even if he does escape, he dies from the DoT.
Bat Rider - He likes to be by your towers all the time? Great, pull him into one.

Cheap items that counter Furion -


Force Staff - stops him from teleporting, pushes him out of his own trees.
Eul's Scepter (Cyclone Stick) - stops him from teleporting, gives your team time to position around him.
Dagon - He's squishy, just kill him.

Regardless of who you pick against Furion, just make sure you, and your team, are always carrying ample teleport scrolls to defend the towers.  If you catch him pushing alone (he does often), take the hero you picked to kill him, and teleport to that lane.  He's relatively slow so you should be able to catch him.  If you kill him, hooray for you, if you don't, just take all the farm he's left you.  Trees are delicious :D
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 10:47:15 AM by Wingflier »
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