Author Topic: Improving Mobas for a solo experience  (Read 9478 times)

Offline RCIX

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Re: Improving Mobas for a solo experience
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2012, 09:57:08 am »
So I agree with you in one sense:  If you do nothing to plan for these kinds of events and mechanics, they basically cause you to "do nothing".  But there are many things you can do in advance (starting with the picking screen) to ensure that doesn't happen.  This is a very different design philosophy than most games have nowadays (punishing you for mistakes you may have made 20 or 30 minutes ago I mean), but personally I like it.  Punishing a player (or team) for not planning better is a good mechanic, even if a lot of people hate it.
Well, I'm a solo player just trying to have fun. I don't particularly have fun by planning ahead for a ton of things that could ruin my day, and while I think it's fine in a team environment to have this setup, I don't think it's particularly fair to punish me for things out of my control.

Quote
The other side of mechanics I hate is the "I'm doing this to deliberately take away power from you, over trying to gain more power for myself". Most of the stuff in "I'm making you do nothing" falls into this.
I'm not sure what you're referring to here, possibly mana burn?
Everything I listed (at least in LoL) is my options being narrowed to one of several choices which are all variations on "stop playing for a while because we don't want you to". That's what I dislike. Yes, there are ways around the issue in Dota. But if I'm having to go in with plans of how to stop the enemy from ruining my game as much or more than how I want to play/win...

(plus, when you feel like you're fighting the game's mechanics themselves to do anything, that doesn't help)
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Offline BobTheJanitor

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Re: Improving Mobas for a solo experience
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2012, 10:05:31 am »
I mean really, multiplayer online battle arena? That could describe anything from quake ctf to a co-op game of AI War (if you stretch arena to encompass a whole galaxy
Sounds like you haven't played any MOBA games. Quake doesn't have lanes, champions/heroes, creeps, turrets, shop nor nexus. Neither does AI War. Well AI War kinda does have Nexus...

EDIT:
I've never even tried, outside of vague fooling around with bots.
Ah there.. Ok.
No, the abbreviation silly. Multiplayer Online Battle Arena. That literally encompasses 95% of online games. They're multiplayer, they're online, you battle, and you're in a pre-defined space i.e. an arena. I know how dota works, and that's not what I'm talking about.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Improving Mobas for a solo experience
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2012, 10:15:10 am »
MOBA isn't really a good abbreviation I agree, though neither is ARTS.

I think the best one I've heard so far is RTSRPG, because very few games besides the DotA-likes fit into this category.

Quote
Well, I'm a solo player just trying to have fun. I don't particularly have fun by planning ahead for a ton of things that could ruin my day, and while I think it's fine in a team environment to have this setup, I don't think it's particularly fair to punish me for things out of my control.
Well you're playing a team game.  You can balance a team game around each individual player, you have to rely on them to some extent.

I think the best place to rely on them is the picking screen.  I don't know if you play Blind Pick, but I typically play All Pick in DotA, which means that I can see what the enemy team is planning, and the strengths and weaknesses of their team.  I'll try to cater my pick, and the picks of my team, to the best counters of what they've picked so far.  Usually your team will listen to you if you're nice enough about it.

For example, if I see a bunch of tanky, hard-to-kill heroes on the other side, I'll ask my team nicely to pick anti-tanks.  I'll give them some examples:  Zeus, Necrolyte, Huskar, Naix, etc.  This situation happens quite a lot actually, and typically SOMEONE on my team can play these guys.  If I see a hero that usually gives pubs a lot of trouble like Invoker, I'll pick a good counter to him, and make a note in my mind to shut him down all game so he can't own my team.

So the point is, by ensuring my team is prepared to face the enemy before the game even starts, I can focus more on what I'm doing once the game has begun.  Make no mistake, in DotA, you can lose the game at the picking screen.  So if you give yourself an advantage before it even starts by coordinating with your team, you can spend the rest of the game focusing on what you're doing, and expecting the rest of your team to focus on what they're doing.  It doesn't always work, but it's one way to play.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 10:21:28 am by Wingflier »
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Offline zebramatt

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Re: Improving Mobas for a solo experience
« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2012, 10:26:44 am »
I mean really, multiplayer online battle arena? That could describe anything from quake ctf to a co-op game of AI War (if you stretch arena to encompass a whole galaxy
Sounds like you haven't played any MOBA games. Quake doesn't have lanes, champions/heroes, creeps, turrets, shop nor nexus. Neither does AI War. Well AI War kinda does have Nexus...

EDIT:
I've never even tried, outside of vague fooling around with bots.
Ah there.. Ok.
No, the abbreviation silly. Multiplayer Online Battle Arena. That literally encompasses 95% of online games. They're multiplayer, they're online, you battle, and you're in a pre-defined space i.e. an arena. I know how dota works, and that's not what I'm talking about.

If you're going to get literal with the semantics, RPG covers just about every game ever. In very few games does one not assume the role of a fictional character.

Offline BobTheJanitor

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Re: Improving Mobas for a solo experience
« Reply #34 on: August 21, 2012, 10:51:54 am »
It's true, FPS is probably the best descriptive abbreviation, and even that gets stretched to encompass non-shooty games like portal (although I've heard first-person puzzler for that one, but I doubt the term is going to catch on) or even 3rd person shooters. But RPG does at least have some history behind it. Before there were final fantasies and baldur's gates there were nerds in basements rolling dice. So RPG meant something before it became a video game term. MOBA, as far as I can tell, was just made up out of the ether.

Offline Hearteater

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Re: Improving Mobas for a solo experience
« Reply #35 on: August 21, 2012, 10:59:41 am »
This is my core beef with so much of MOBA design. Ganking is forcing someone to choose between doing nothing by tower hugging (or just running), and doing nothing by being dead. Zoning is forcing someone to choose between doing nothing by running away to avoid the zoner, or doing nothing by taking extreme damage/dying. Basically, all the stuff that's "i'm making you do x or you die". The other side of mechanics I hate is the "I'm doing this to deliberately take away power from you, over trying to gain more power for myself". Most of the stuff in "I'm making you do nothing" falls into this.
Just speaking of LoL, ganking is critical to keeping the game moving.  To zone your opponents in lane, you open yourself up to a gank.  So the risk to zoning is getting ganked.  If you don't have a jungler/mid to gank there is no downside to zoning.  You can break some zoning attempts with good minion control, but not all.  Sometimes you need teammates.  So when you feel like you are zoned you need to let your team know. 

And zoning is trading time for control.  The ideal early game is to get every single last hit, and be in range for every point of xp.  When you zone, you are spending at minimum time, if not mana, harassing your opponent.  That's time you aren't last hitting to gather gold.  Since you don't need to be last hitting every second, the skill for both sides comes in the timing.  Say I'm melee top trying to farm against a ranged champion who is harassing me.  My ideal time to dash in for a last hit is the same moment when he has a last hit coming up.  Then he needs to pick between missing a last hit and harassing me.  Meanwhile, I get a last hit either way.

It's a battle of attrition and carefully timed trades, where you try and maximize the benefits you get, and the costs to the other team, all while controlling the overall wave position.  Even in a really unbalanced top you can keep fairly close to even by forcing him to miss last hits while you get them, and then backing to heal and buy once the wave position is unfavorable.  In just two trips you can have an item advantage even though you have a gold disadvantage that completely breaks his ability to control you.

Very rarely in solo queue do I see someone get zoned unless the game is over already.  Which is really more an issue of LoL not having a good comeback mechanic so people just give up because they know the only way to win from a 0-15 deficit at 12 minutes is to somehow drag the game out 60-70 minutes, and no one wants to be bothered doing that in solo queue.  They'd rather lose and start a new game.

Watch the pro stream, especially those that explain what's happening.  Guardsman Bob is another excellent choice and Phantom Lord also sometimes give good insights (both on own3d.tv).  Both are good enough they can have a bad lane match-up, and no support from their team, and still never be passive.  The "making you do nothing" feeling is most often a result of lack of experience.  Basically being put in a position where you don't know any of the responses, or you've ruled out valid responses emotionally, instead of rationally finding workable solutions.  There is always something you can be doing, the only question is can you see it.  I really wish they had replays, because watching your own games is amazingly insightful.

Offline zebramatt

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Re: Improving Mobas for a solo experience
« Reply #36 on: August 21, 2012, 11:14:08 am »
It's true, FPS is probably the best descriptive abbreviation, and even that gets stretched to encompass non-shooty games like portal (although I've heard first-person puzzler for that one, but I doubt the term is going to catch on) or even 3rd person shooters. But RPG does at least have some history behind it. Before there were final fantasies and baldur's gates there were nerds in basements rolling dice. So RPG meant something before it became a video game term. MOBA, as far as I can tell, was just made up out of the ether.

Can't find fault with your reasoning, although I'd contest (or perhaps just postulate, since we appear to be in basic agreement) that nerds in basements rolling d12s to determine their fate against imaginary goblins, conjured from the ether a term to describe their particular variety of board game which might easily have been extended at the time to encompass would-be hegemons waging global war in Risk; apocryphal Lords establishing fiefdoms in Carcassonne; or hypothetical Machiavellian mice trying to outsmart each other in the game of Mouse Trap.

I wonder if the same contention about the loose meaning of the games' abbreviations occurred to anyone to mention back in the 70s? I imagine someone probably sent someone a telegram on the subject, or some such.

Offline Kahuna

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Re: Improving Mobas for a solo experience
« Reply #37 on: August 21, 2012, 11:35:01 am »
I mean really, multiplayer online battle arena? That could describe anything from quake ctf to a co-op game of AI War (if you stretch arena to encompass a whole galaxy
Sounds like you haven't played any MOBA games. Quake doesn't have lanes, champions/heroes, creeps, turrets, shop nor nexus. Neither does AI War. Well AI War kinda does have Nexus...

EDIT:
I've never even tried, outside of vague fooling around with bots.
Ah there.. Ok.
No, the abbreviation silly. Multiplayer Online Battle Arena. That literally encompasses 95% of online games. They're multiplayer, they're online, you battle, and you're in a pre-defined space i.e. an arena. I know how dota works, and that's not what I'm talking about.
Call of Duty is an RPG. You play as a fictional character.
Skyrim is an FPS. You can shoot arrows and spells.
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C&C is an RPG because you're the commander and you command units.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 11:39:02 am by Kahuna »
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Offline RCIX

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Re: Improving Mobas for a solo experience
« Reply #38 on: August 21, 2012, 11:55:22 am »
This is my core beef with so much of MOBA design. Ganking is forcing someone to choose between doing nothing by tower hugging (or just running), and doing nothing by being dead. Zoning is forcing someone to choose between doing nothing by running away to avoid the zoner, or doing nothing by taking extreme damage/dying. Basically, all the stuff that's "i'm making you do x or you die". The other side of mechanics I hate is the "I'm doing this to deliberately take away power from you, over trying to gain more power for myself". Most of the stuff in "I'm making you do nothing" falls into this.
Just speaking of LoL, ganking is critical to keeping the game moving.  To zone your opponents in lane, you open yourself up to a gank.  So the risk to zoning is getting ganked.  If you don't have a jungler/mid to gank there is no downside to zoning.  You can break some zoning attempts with good minion control, but not all.  Sometimes you need teammates.  So when you feel like you are zoned you need to let your team know. 

And zoning is trading time for control.  The ideal early game is to get every single last hit, and be in range for every point of xp.  When you zone, you are spending at minimum time, if not mana, harassing your opponent.  That's time you aren't last hitting to gather gold.  Since you don't need to be last hitting every second, the skill for both sides comes in the timing.  Say I'm melee top trying to farm against a ranged champion who is harassing me.  My ideal time to dash in for a last hit is the same moment when he has a last hit coming up.  Then he needs to pick between missing a last hit and harassing me.  Meanwhile, I get a last hit either way.

It's a battle of attrition and carefully timed trades, where you try and maximize the benefits you get, and the costs to the other team, all while controlling the overall wave position.  Even in a really unbalanced top you can keep fairly close to even by forcing him to miss last hits while you get them, and then backing to heal and buy once the wave position is unfavorable.  In just two trips you can have an item advantage even though you have a gold disadvantage that completely breaks his ability to control you.

Very rarely in solo queue do I see someone get zoned unless the game is over already.  Which is really more an issue of LoL not having a good comeback mechanic so people just give up because they know the only way to win from a 0-15 deficit at 12 minutes is to somehow drag the game out 60-70 minutes, and no one wants to be bothered doing that in solo queue.  They'd rather lose and start a new game.

Watch the pro stream, especially those that explain what's happening.  Guardsman Bob is another excellent choice and Phantom Lord also sometimes give good insights (both on own3d.tv).  Both are good enough they can have a bad lane match-up, and no support from their team, and still never be passive.  The "making you do nothing" feeling is most often a result of lack of experience.  Basically being put in a position where you don't know any of the responses, or you've ruled out valid responses emotionally, instead of rationally finding workable solutions.  There is always something you can be doing, the only question is can you see it.  I really wish they had replays, because watching your own games is amazingly insightful.
I understand all of this, but it doesn't change the surprising number of situations where the enemy isn't winning the lane fast enough so he calls in his buddies for a 3man gank under my tower =/ I also get that in theory, there's a way out of a lot more things if I just knew what it was, but training to that point in mechanical and strategic skill would suck all the fun out of my LoL play sessions...

I watch bob (or did anyway, he got boring :P), Oddone for the humor, and Scarra for awesomeness.

Another part I hate is how long losing games drag out - stomps usually end up being ~5 minutes of play and 15+ minutes of watching my character die in new and (un)interesting ways. In Starcraft, at least with Zerg rushes it's spend 5 minutes and either crush the guy or get crushed then someone wins and move on (unless you counterplay the rush and the other guy makes it past your assault back, which means they're actually really good).

Also, www.leaguereplays.com. Red approved!

On a related note, I play a ton of Dominion because it helps solve critical flaws with traditional style games: Over-emphasis on PvE objectives, and farming+snowballing. Team comps, throwing people at a situation, and what I like to call temporal balancing is still prevalent (perhaps moreso), but at least there are less issues.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 11:57:43 am by RCIX »
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: Improving Mobas for a solo experience
« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2012, 12:10:13 pm »
I won't deny LoL needs better pacing for one-sided games.  I personally feel come-backs need to be much easier, which in LoL terms means the losing team needs to be able to earn back a large portion of the gold they gave up in team kills.  At present the best I can get is 600 gold.  But if I died 5 times, I've given up 1094 gold, assuming the enemy team had no assists.  But if I kill that guy, I get only 439, so he's still up 655 gold.  You used to be able to get up to 1000 gold for a kill, but they toned that down because players with kill streaks would hang back to avoid giving up 1k gold.  So what they really need is a system were any kill earns your (the losing team) additional gold.  So the winning team can't help but risk giving up a large portion of their gold advantage if they get killed too much.

But that alone would just make the winning team play a lot slower and passively.  So I really think the winning team needs to be pressured to win.  Something that basically forces them to kill towers quickly, or give up their advantage.  Say if a team has more than a 1 or 2 tower advantage, they get a "shot clock" like in basketball.  They must kill another tower in that time frame, or lose a tower of their own.  The longer the game has gone, the shorter the shot clock.  So the losing team can focus on defending towers to allow the tower count to even out, and also force the winning team to risk giving up extra gold from deaths.

I'd also probably consider throwing in a Summoner Spell cooldown reduction based on the kill lead.  Say 2% per kill over a 5 kill lead, up to 50%.  Just something to let the losing team get a bit more aggressive at punishing the winning team for mistakes.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Improving Mobas for a solo experience
« Reply #40 on: August 21, 2012, 03:40:33 pm »
I mean really, multiplayer online battle arena? That could describe anything from quake ctf to a co-op game of AI War (if you stretch arena to encompass a whole galaxy
Sounds like you haven't played any MOBA games. Quake doesn't have lanes, champions/heroes, creeps, turrets, shop nor nexus. Neither does AI War. Well AI War kinda does have Nexus...
I think he means that the phrase  "Multiplayer Online Battle Arena", if you don't already know what it means, could be used to describe a much broader set of genres than it is actually used to describe.  In other words, the phrase is accurate but very imprecise.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Improving Mobas for a solo experience
« Reply #41 on: August 21, 2012, 07:03:49 pm »
Quote
I won't deny LoL needs better pacing for one-sided games.  I personally feel come-backs need to be much easier, which in LoL terms means the losing team needs to be able to earn back a large portion of the gold they gave up in team kills. 
Ironically, it's the mechanics of LoL that everyone raves about as "great design decisions" that cause it to be so imbalanced and one-sided often.

1. Items scale up -


This is better for new players because they don't have to fill their inventory with small, but effective items like in DotA, making it easier for them to just start out with 1 item instead of the confusing 5 or 6.  However, as the game goes on, the winning team's items are exponentially better than the losing team's items, because the items scale up instead of scaling down.  In DotA, scaling down is worse for noobies, but better for close games.

2. Scroll of teleport removed, replaced by rarely used summoner spell and recall -

The winning team can now steamroll your towers before you have time to react, because they are leading.  The losing team usually needs farm to catch up, but the winning team pushes their advantage and gives the losing team no time to farm, since they have to devote all their time to defending towers that get pushed like mad.  In DotA, a player can continue to farm, and teleport to a tower under duress.

3. No gold penalty on death, gold streak-ender capped -


In DotA, when you're losing/dying a lot, you lose gold, but since the gold is based on your level, and since you probably don't have a lot of gold, it doesn't affect you as heavily as if you're winning.  Players that are winning lose more gold since they are a higher level, and give out more gold at a higher level as well.  The streak at DotA is capped out at 10 kills, which gives out 400 gold to the bounty collector, not including the hero's regular bounty which is 200+DyingHeroLevel*5.  Killing a hero with a 10 kill streak typically rewards 800+ gold to the killer, while causing the hero who died to lose quite a bit as well.

4. Level capped at 18 -


In DotA, the level cap is 25, which means that the higher level someone is above you, the more you (and your team) stand to gain by killing said hero.  I've gained 3 levels before by killing a couple opponents that were significantly higher than me.  That's a HUGE upgrade.

5. No long-term invis mechanics -

In DotA, one of the best ways for a losing team to come back is to buy Smoke of Deceit, which cloaks the whole team for 60 seconds and gives them a 15% movespeed boost.  If they can kill a few enemy heroes who are significantly higher than they are (or with a streak), they can come back into the game.  Mechanics like this don't exist in LoL, making it hard to "take away" an advantage from a team that already has it.

---

I find it ironic that it's all the design decisions everyone praises that ultimately makes the game so lopsided.  I mean granted, in both games if you start out 15-0, you're not coming back, but I tend to see a lot more comebacks in professional DotA than in League.
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Offline RCIX

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Re: Improving Mobas for a solo experience
« Reply #42 on: August 21, 2012, 10:37:46 pm »
The problem is a bunch of those lead to a game that sucks and is one-sided not just for the newbies, but anyone who's not in the high level competitive play.

1. Scaling down can be done in a way that doesn't make new players buy 6 random items at the start of each game (see Dorans items). It's just a matter of doing it right, and I agree here.

2. I kinda want to see Teleport rolled into Recall and it given a 60ish second cooldown. The problem isn't that you're not forking over gold to teleport (that just benefits the winning team more), it's that you give up too much by taking it in a lot of cases.

3. Part a is the biggest thing that sucks about Dota, and part B never made sense to me in League. If an enemy is that fed and that big of a threat, then hellz yeah he should single-handedly put the enemy team in the running. Gold loss on death is a very meh mechanic because then you gotta fiddle with carry item prices and scaling and such... and all you get is a system that results in more snowballing and a big "F U" to anyone who makes a couple mistakes early.

4. XP gains on death are independent of level gaps (or can be made so). And if you're going to, guaranteed, use your stat points at a predictable time each game (may depend somewhat on the hero) then just roll them into a shorter/steeper stat level up. Dota of course has the problem of forcing the player to level stats at least once before level 3 ult, but I digress.

5. No. Just, no. I can only imagine what IceFrog was thinking when he made that: "Hey, invis sucks for new players, so I know! I'll make an AoE invis plus speed boost item so whole teams can roflgank poor players without them noticing! And better yet, they get to blame themselves because hey, they didn't see the MIAs!"

In general, very few mechanics in DotA that purport to make comebacks actually do so, because they can easily be leveraged by the winning team to widen the gap (which people seem to miss somehow :S). Your team is ahead? Become bodyguards for your carry and get him super-farmed for a win. Use smoke of your own to stomp anyone who has the mistaken impression that they should get to play for more than 5 minutes. Etc.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Improving Mobas for a solo experience
« Reply #43 on: August 21, 2012, 11:47:15 pm »
Quote
5. No. Just, no. I can only imagine what IceFrog was thinking when he made that: "Hey, invis sucks for new players, so I know! I'll make an AoE invis plus speed boost item so whole teams can roflgank poor players without them noticing! And better yet, they get to blame themselves because hey, they didn't see the MIAs!"
Well map awareness is a key skill in DotA (and I'd say ARTS games in general).  It's just like last hitting or positioning, if you have no map awareness, you deserve to lose; it's part of the game.

That's like playing basketball and saying:  Well I can dribble, I can juke, I can pass, I can defend, I can catch rebounds, but I can't make a shot to save my life.  Well that's great that you have all of those skills, but if you can never make a shot into the hoop, you're going to be kind of a burden to your team.  Map awareness is just as important as any other skill, if the entire team is missing, you should know something is up, and be prepared for it.

Quote
In general, very few mechanics in DotA that purport to make comebacks actually do so, because they can easily be leveraged by the winning team to widen the gap (which people seem to miss somehow :S). Your team is ahead? Become bodyguards for your carry and get him super-farmed for a win.
Well, if you have your whole team "bodyguarding" the carry in DotA, you're actually hurting him more than helping.  Gold and experiences from creep killing is the highest when you're by yourself.  So if 5 people are farming a lane, they are not using their time very wisely.  To have your whole team guarding your carry is actually pretty counter-productive if the enemy team is making a better use of their own resources.

However, if they DON'T guard the carry, it opens him up to be ganked, and therefore give the enemy team a chance to react.  These kinds of decisions are difficult for both sides, they aren't as simple as "We're winning, guard the carry to ensure a victory!".

Quote
Use smoke of your own to stomp anyone who has the mistaken impression that they should get to play for more than 5 minutes. Etc.
Typically, Smoke is best used with a whole team, or at least most of the team, so that if you catch an enemy you can guarantee their death, then push while you have the advantage.

As I said above, if your team is already ahead, you either need to push, or continue farming in an efficient way.  Pushing is much harder in DotA than in LoL, because of the inherent mobility offered by scrolls of teleport, and because towers are significantly harder to kill.  So if your team continues to farm, you're not smoke ganking.  Ganking when you're ahead can actually be a risky thing to do.  To go onto the enemy's side of the map, close to their base and their towers, where they can all quickly respond, is a very risky thing to do.  Now of course the rewards for doing this can outweigh risks, depending on the situation:

But in the situation you're describing, where you're already winning, the enemy team is already below you in terms of level and gold.  You aren't gaining that much by killing them, but they gain a whole lot if the gank fails and they kill you instead.

For these reasons, the team that's losing has a lot more to gain from smoke ganks, and ganking their opponent in general.  Ganking will always be the risky path to take (as opposed to farming or pushing), but it also potentially offers the highest rewards.

From watching Starcraft 2 I see similar situations where one player is behind and he knows it.  In order to get ahead, or to get on even footing with his opponent, he must take a risk.  He knows that if he doesn't take a risk, there's little chance that he can win.  However, the winning player shouldn't take risks, they should play the game as safely and efficiently as possible, until they have a force that can simply crush their opponent.  It's the same with DotA.  Ganking your opponents heavily when you're ahead is an unnecessary risk, it's much more valuable for the team that's losing.
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Offline RCIX

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Re: Improving Mobas for a solo experience
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2012, 01:42:47 am »
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5. No. Just, no. I can only imagine what IceFrog was thinking when he made that: "Hey, invis sucks for new players, so I know! I'll make an AoE invis plus speed boost item so whole teams can roflgank poor players without them noticing! And better yet, they get to blame themselves because hey, they didn't see the MIAs!"
Well map awareness is a key skill in DotA (and I'd say ARTS games in general).  It's just like last hitting or positioning, if you have no map awareness, you deserve to lose; it's part of the game.

That's like playing basketball and saying:  Well I can dribble, I can juke, I can pass, I can defend, I can catch rebounds, but I can't make a shot to save my life.  Well that's great that you have all of those skills, but if you can never make a shot into the hoop, you're going to be kind of a burden to your team.  Map awareness is just as important as any other skill, if the entire team is missing, you should know something is up, and be prepared for it.
It's a skill, but not an interesting one. Hey look, you can split your attention 3 ways. Great! Now you can be a better sissy. =/ (yes yes, its a team game blah blah blah, i'm looking for a consistently fun solo experience. Thus the same words in the title)


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In general, very few mechanics in DotA that purport to make comebacks actually do so, because they can easily be leveraged by the winning team to widen the gap (which people seem to miss somehow :S). Your team is ahead? Become bodyguards for your carry and get him super-farmed for a win.
Well, if you have your whole team "bodyguarding" the carry in DotA, you're actually hurting him more than helping.  Gold and experiences from creep killing is the highest when you're by yourself.  So if 5 people are farming a lane, they are not using their time very wisely.  To have your whole team guarding your carry is actually pretty counter-productive if the enemy team is making a better use of their own resources.

However, if they DON'T guard the carry, it opens him up to be ganked, and therefore give the enemy team a chance to react.  These kinds of decisions are difficult for both sides, they aren't as simple as "We're winning, guard the carry to ensure a victory!".
By bodyguarding, I mean having scrolls on hand/Fortify up/being nearby but not in xp leech range/etc. Close enough to respond like you say the losing team's players would be, but not close enough to actively harm the carry. And yeah, at that point, you could stage some sort of splitpush, but that's entirely too complex for one person to coordinate.



This is all losing the original topic, which is, how do we make a moba that's a better solo experience?
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 01:44:21 am by RCIX »
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