Improving Mobas for a solo experience

[RCIX]

So the issue I've been chewing on is that as a solo/duo player, once I got pretty good at League of Legends, the experience kinda sucked in several ways. Before our resident DotA fanboy advocate () protests, the issues I've identified are more common to most mobas. Anyway, here they are:
 * Ganking
 * Counter-picks
 * Teamplay
But wait, you protest! These are core mechanics to the genre and need to stay! Well, why? Sure, they make sense in a team context where you can really talk team comps and communicate between 5 people. In solo queue, where 5 people are looking to rambo, have specific champions in mind to play, and wouldn't know what communcation is if a ping slapped them over the head? Yeah....

After all, I signed up to fight enemy players in what I hoped would be a fair contest, and not have to deal with constantly having people thrown at me until I die :x I'm serious. The average solotop game for me goes something like Kill enemy top laner > he comes back, get ganked > get 3manned (which doesn't always work) > 4 or 5 people pile in my lane to push. =/

So anyway, I wanted to mull over the idea with some friends and see if they had thoughts on how to make Mobas a more enjoyable experience for the solo or duo queuer (especially one most interested in fun through enemy interaction).

(Maybe this'll shed some light on my LoL over Dota philosophy?)

[Minotaar]

All competitive team multiplayer games (not only MOBAs, but also FPS like Tribes, etc.) after a certain level become much less fun solo. Before that, the core mechanics (killing/shooting creeps/people and progressing) keep you going. Since these games are defined by the teamplay aspect, you really can't downplay the importance of that.
Funny thing is, the vast majority of people play the game solo. They usually deal with this problem by blaming their teammates when anything goes wrong. If that's not good enough for you, the only thing you can do is find a team.
But if we try to design a MOBA so that it works just as well with random people as with a team of friends, I think we'll end up with a really boring game. FPS are better for that since the teamplay advantages are less obvious and the "solo threshold" is higher because things like moving and aiming are more fun and harder to master than last-hitting creeps. But we already have a ton of team-deathmatch games like CoD and BF, no need to spawn new ones.

[Wingflier]

You could probably have seen this coming, but personally I think the ineffectiveness of soloing is unique to LoL.

In LoL, you're typically soloing against 1 person, with possible ganks from the jungle across the river, until the mid-game, which, if you're doing well, ganks from anywhere can be expected.  As you said, this can be difficult.

In DotA, it's not uncommon for you to be soloing against 2 heroes, sometimes with ganks from a jungle that sits right beside you (not across the river), so in some ways it makes the lane a 3v1.  Yet, in DotA this is very possible, and even common in many scenarios. 

Consider the situation you're describing:  You're a good solo laner, and you're winning your lane.  The enemy team notices and starts coming to gank you.

Now there are several key differences between LoL and DotA here:

1. In DotA, wards cover the whole river, so you'll most likely see the enemy team before they come.  This gives you more time to react and be prepared than in LoL, where they may just show up and kill you.

2.  If the whole enemy team shows up to kill you and take the tower, your team can be there within seconds assuming they have scrolls of teleport.
-This isn't possible in LoL.  Teleport is a Summoner Spell, but it's not often taken, and even when it is it has a very long cooldown compared to scroll of teleport.  Your teammates may not use it to save you or defend your tower.

3.  "Fortify" is a base game mechanic of DotA, so if your tower is under heavy attack, anybody can use it, giving your team 4 more seconds to respond.  4 more seconds means a lot more in DotA than it does in LoL btw, since in LoL most players are going to have to walk there.  4 seconds in DotA means several teammates could have teleported in to help you.  Fortify is a Summoner Spell in LoL, but YOU can't control when your teammate uses it, and they may not use it to help you, if they even have it at all.

In other words, the game mechanics in DotA are a lot more friendly for solo laners.  If the enemy team realizes you're a good player and comes to shut you down, your team has a way to respond quickly, instead of just letting them kill you and your tower(s). 

Of course this doesn't mean that they WILL come help you in DotA, but they at least have the option.  The better you get at DotA, you start getting paired with better players, and they tend to help you more because they realize the importance of towers and defending your teammates. 

With all that said, I agree with Minotaar that MOBA/ARTS are team games.  Regardless of personal skill, your win or loss ultimately depends on your team.  However, I like to think that personal skill has a much bigger impact in DotA than it does in LoL, and I think the game mechanics of the two titles reflect that.

[Hearteater]

You're right, I did see that coming.  And unsurprisingly, your analysis of LoL is yet again incorrect.  I'm not even going to bother correcting it because it appears to do no good.  For everyone else, just rip out everything he just said about LoL since it's wrong, and read the parts about DOTA from the position of "How DOTA handles solo queue".

[Wingflier]

Please show me where I'm wrong.  I'm not trying to be obtuse here.

I'll try to condense my points into numbers so that you can point out the flaws.

1. Teleport in LoL is a Summoner Spell that is often not taken.
2. Teleport is not used every time a tower is under heavy attack because it has a long cooldown.
3. For these reasons, it takes much longer for your teammates to assist the solo laner in LoL than it does in DotA.
4. Wards in LoL do not cover the entire river, and last half as long as they do in DotA, so it's easier to gank somebody with your whole team early game.
5. Fortify is a Summoner Spell that is usually not taken, and when it is taken it isn't necessarily used for you when your tower is under attack.

For all of these reasons, the solo laner is much easier to defend in DotA if he is ganked and his tower is under siege.  Please explain to me which one of my points is wrong.

[Hearteater]

Your summary of your own post is also wrong!  For someone not trying to be obtuse, you're doing an amazing job of it.  When I tell you to stop trying to explain how LoL works, I'm trying to help.  You may good insight into DOTA, but you certainly don't have that for LoL.  Not to mention your emotional (aka, irrational) feelings about LoL and Riot.  This dilutes the strength of your posts when you attempt to put incomplete or incorrect knowledge of LoL to support your points, especially when your underlying feelings for the game/company come through.  Your post could have been focused on how DOTA handles the solo queue experience and it would have been significantly more useful, interesting, and overall stronger.

[Wingflier]

You've now spent two posts criticizing me and the content of my posts, while amazingly, not addressing a single one of my points. If you're not a politician, I dare say you missed your calling.

I spent over 1,000 hours playing LoL, I think I have a pretty good grasp on it. I also have a good grasp on the average player, who would rather resort to red herrings and ad hominem attacks than address the points which have even been laid out in number format for you.

[Hearteater]

It simply isn't worth the time talking to someone who isn't listening.  You've actually caused me to look up and determine this forum does in fact have an ignore feature.  Good luck with all your future endeavors.

[Wingflier]

And good luck to you good sir.

[Kahuna]

The players should have an option to not be matched with players who have ever left a game or x amount of games nor with players who have ever been reported and punished for anything.

MOBAs should have an active language filtering which would first check what a player says and then either show it or not show depending on what words the player has set the filter to not show. The filter would be customizable (filter a, b, c, d, e, d... words) so if I never want to see the word "noob" I wouldn't have to.
If a sentence has x word (noob, n0ob, n00b, nab, naab, nabs, naabs for example), do not show the sentence at all or just sensor the word. The player could decide which. There should also be a switch which would automatically mute the player who uses x word if it's enabled. After the game is over you would see which players have been auto muted or used which bad words (based on your filters) so you could report them for "Negative attitude" or "Offensive language" (in League of Legends).

BOOM! Problem solved! Now I could play League of Legends again.

[keith.lamothe]

The players should have an option to not be matched with players who have ever left a game or x amount of games nor with players who have ever been reported and punished for anything.

I wonder if there would be channels/groups called "Leper Colony" or something like that, under those rules

[Wingflier]

What's to prevent people from reporting others out of spite?

What if someone left a game because the power went out or there was a serious family emergency?

I believe in strict punishments for leavers but wow...

[Kahuna]

The players should have an option to not be matched with players who have ever left a game or x amount of games nor with players who have ever been reported and punished for anything.

I wonder if there would be channels/groups called "Leper Colony" or something like that, under those rules

In Heroes of Newerth you have something like this. If I remember right you can see leave % of a player and create games where only players with < x leave % can join. Every MOBA should have something like this.

^^Players who have been reported and punished should be put in a server called "Leper Colony". First punish=1 week ban, second 2 weeks, 3 weeks, 4 weeks, 6 months, perma ban.

[Kahuna]

What's to prevent people from reporting others out of spite?

What if someone left a game because the power went out or there was a serious family emergency?

I believe in strict punishments for leavers but wow...

In League of Legends there's Tribunal and so far it has worked (apparently). get reported shouldn't be = get punished.

All players could have x leave %. If leave % > 2 do no match me with that player.

The only way to get the "shit" out of an asshole's head is to shoot a hole on it. Sure the idiot will die but big deal. Nothing of value was lost.

[BobTheJanitor]

Well the title was interesting, but this seemed to quickly devolve into technicalities that don't make any sense to me as a non lolhondota player. My MOBA (that's a pretty bad term for the genre (I mean really, multiplayer online battle arena? That could describe anything from quake ctf to a co-op game of AI War (if you stretch arena to encompass a whole galaxy)) but it seems we're stuck with it... at least it's better than dota-like) experience is mostly limited to the newer games that take some things from the formula and leave others out, like Super MNC or Awesomenauts. You'll likely never get me playing a true dota-style MOBA as long as it keeps clinging to ridiculous outdated game mechanics that only exist because they were part of the original WC3 map. Like last hitting. I mean really, why is that even a thing? What does it add? I just don't get it.

I like the general idea of escorting your forces as a hero and trying to push your way through to the enemy's base. I like getting xp or picking up cash for upgrading characters (although I like the more casual model of just going for a fun build and not being punished for it rather than the more obsessive formula where you have to have a specific upgrade order and everything is all math-ed out ahead of time lest you lose horribly) I don't mind that the game encourages conservative play by my character dying providing a bonus to the enemy, although perhaps it should be lowered since that seems to be one of the main things that causes rage. It's a kind of a positive feedback loop in that one death makes the other team stronger making it more likely that you'll die more, making them even stronger, and so on. Anyway, I'm getting off the point.

I don't know how you make it friendlier for the solo player, I only know that you probably couldn't pay me to play a game of honloldota online. I've never even tried, outside of vague fooling around with bots. I've heard too many horror stories to ever want to bother, and as far as I can tell, the community wouldn't want me anyway. They seem to hate the very idea of new players, and they only want players who come into the game fully experienced and qualified to play the game with any character at a moment's notice. If I have to point out to you what's wrong with this, I would be worried.

But I do remain interested to see where the genre goes from here. The new games coming out that take a bit of the formula and throw out the rest are pretty interesting. And I can't be the only one who's noticed that after TF2's MvM update that all they need to do is mirror the map and make a few other tweaks and they would have a functional MOBA in TF2. That could be quite enjoyable.