Author Topic: Hearthstone  (Read 55030 times)

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #150 on: June 13, 2016, 04:04:49 pm »
Solforge? (Looked at the most recent video on their site, to call that art style "horribly bland" would be an understatement) I mean, when you have HS and Duelyst to contend with, you better have it look more polished than 2 dudes throwing gifs at each other.
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Offline TheVampire100

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #151 on: June 13, 2016, 05:43:46 pm »
I really don't care about the art style very much to be honest. It's not like this is the most important part of a card game.

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #152 on: June 13, 2016, 07:21:38 pm »
I really don't care about the art style very much to be honest. It's not like this is the most important part of a card game.

But MP card games live and thrive when they gain mass appeal since otherwise you won't find decent match-making in them (what annoyed me to no end in Duelyst, playing same guy 6 times and losing because my decks aren't gonna change in between random games is NOT fun). And you won't get that when you have a card game that looks like a flash game and doesn't seem to have any interesting gameplay depth.
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Offline TheVampire100

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #153 on: June 13, 2016, 07:46:24 pm »
That is probably right. Can you show me the video you meant?

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #154 on: June 13, 2016, 07:59:27 pm »
That is probably right. Can you show me the video you meant?

One of them ones here https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCR8Kdr95a7Pb61GGNINDr9Q
I assume that's a dev?...

And by the way, Duelyst only changed this match-making issue VERY recently. So yeah, might give it a try again...
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #155 on: June 15, 2016, 07:46:54 am »
I grew up playing Final Fantasy Tactics. It was one of the favorite games of my childhood. We used to rent Playstation games from the local Blockbuster (wow, blast from the past right?). I rented it and re-rented it so many times, my mom in exasperation finally just got it for me (I don't remember how much it cost, probably $30 at the local Toys R' Us).

For some reason I never got into Fire Emblem, though I had a cousin who did, and I had heard it was really good. But anyway, I've been wanting to scratch that FFT itch for a very long time. And surprisingly, in 15+ years, nobody has been able to do it for me. FFT was such a unique game. To my knowledge it was the first blend of RPG and Tabletop tactics in digital format ever made. It was a masterpiece.

And yet, so many years later, any games which even remotely symbolize it are either locked behind massive paywalls, badly designed, abandonware, or any other combination of problems which has led to a severe disappoint for a lot of people I think.

Well anyway, Duelyst is the closest I've come to finding that game. Apparently, when it was announced as Kickstarter game, it was supposed to be a tabletop tactics type game, with all the content unlocked after purchase. Yet somehow, through a series of design decisions that I wasn't there for, it kind of became a card game with turn-based tactical elements.

This is a bit of a tl;dr, so you can skip it if you want but this is important. It's from a post on the Duelyst subreddit yesterday called "Broken promises and loss of identity: current Duelyst compared to its original Kickstarter":

Spoiler for Hiden:
The "Early Beginnings" section might reveal the secret: Duelyst started as a tactical miniature game played on a board with dice. If you've played D&D or another pen and paper RPG, you know what we're talking about: during the combat phases (or "random encounters", if you will) you move your hero on a board and fight monsters.

From the descriptions and the photos included, it looks like they stripped the roleplay bit and only focused on a hero units supported by other units, refining the gameplay to streamline it and keep it fast and to the point. Notice in the photos how no one is holding cards, and it seems like you would have been able to build your squad on the spot without having to "draw" the units.

Let's keep reading the list of features: "Our goal is to vigilantly remove every extraneous feature from the game to focus on its heart and soul: squad-based tactical combat". This confirms what explained above: by extraneous features, they probably mean the roleplay and collecting loot bit. Just build your army and go to battle, and the way you build your army is also explained." Business Model: Every battle unit and spell is earned by spending time playing the game. As a result, this is NOT pay-to-win!"

While collecting money for boosters can certainly be done by just playing, and the gold and drop rates are generous, notice how nowhere it mentions the fact that the units and spells are on cards that you have to get by opening packs at random. In fact, some comments from backers lament the fact that Duelyst wasn't even supposed to be a free to play game, but rather a retail-priced game with all units unlocked through progression. So what about the game itself?

"Skill-Based Tactical Combat: The emphasis is on unit positioning, understanding your squad's abilities, anticipating your opponent's capabilities, and maintaining board control. At it's core, it's a tactical tabletop board game without all the manual math calculations."

Duelyst started as skirmish combat game similar to tabletop tactical combat. Looking at the preview gifs in the page shows it clearly: the sheer amount of units on the board could probably never be accomplished in the current version of the game, and there are AoE spells that target clusters of enemies, or spells that go around said enemies to target the general directly instead. All this showcases handling multiple units at the time and taking advantage of positioning.

The word "card" isn't used once in the entire page. Or "deck", for that matter. The word "ccg" is used once, in reference to the resource pool (mana) and not to describe the gameplay.
So what's so wrong about card games? Nothing, and they can be loads of fun. And pre-patch Duelyst somehow found a way to incorporate some elements of card games into its core tactical miniature gameplay. Having your units in a deck and drawing them made it more unpredictable compared to a simple "place the units from the start", but the draw 2 replace function mitigated said unpredictability to make it more consistent with your gameplan and less reliant on topdeck RNG.

Making the game free to play and using boosters to get units rather than going full price retail also made sense in a competitive market where a lot of indie games struggle to be recognized. As a business model it was probably more sustainable, and it was not as aggressive for the consumer as many other free to play games. And the randomness of opening packs is undeniably appealing.
As an hybrid of tactical squad gameplay and ccg elements, Duelyst just hit the right spot in the middle, using elements of both to deliver an extremely unique game. Sure, there were some balance problems in overtuned or underwhelming cards, but nothing fundamentally broken.

But something shifted from this original design, and gradually Duelyst lost its root of tactical squad game with some ccg elements to transition into a full-blown card game, except on a board.

Of course I didn't know about any of this until I read it. But basically, I think I would have liked Duelyst a lot more as it was originally designed to be, a Tabletop game with miniatures in digital format focusing purely on skill and tactics, and not the quality of a player's cards. It seems it copied the Hearthstone model, which from a business standpoint is probably extremely lucrative, but from a design standpoint...eh not so much. I still really like it, and I still think it's the best replacement for FFT I've discovered so far, but it's sad because I feel it could have been so much more.
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Offline Logorouge

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #156 on: June 15, 2016, 04:01:31 pm »
I still really like it, and I still think it's the best replacement for FFT I've discovered so far, but it's sad because I feel it could have been so much more.
I take it the goofy Disgaea series didn't do it for you? :P

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #157 on: June 15, 2016, 04:52:55 pm »
I still really like it, and I still think it's the best replacement for FFT I've discovered so far, but it's sad because I feel it could have been so much more.
I take it the goofy Disgaea series didn't do it for you? :P
Uh no. I've already made a post about my feelings concerning games with 10 billion sequels. Also the near-infinite level cap, and just the sheer amount of grinding.

To me it essentially seemed to be the Korean MMO equivalent to the FFT genre.

Just no.
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Offline TheVampire100

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #158 on: June 15, 2016, 06:12:11 pm »
Have you actually played Final Fantasy tactics Advance? It was some kind of pseudo-sequel to the game. However, I found some of the features not really pleasant to play with but maybe your experience may differ from mine.

I think "Yu-gi-Oh Capsule Monsters Colloseum" is pretty good and somewhat colse to FFT. However, the game is really short and the story non-existent. I like however the fusion and evolution system but it's hard to figure out what the requirement for each monster are.
Also, don't get confused about the tag "Yu-gi-oh". The game uses just the background and characters from the series, it does not use any rules of the actual card game ( or is a card game to begin with).

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #159 on: June 16, 2016, 06:09:52 am »
Yeah I did play it actually. I wasn't super impressed. The thing was the laws was really annoying, it's too bad I couldn't take my anger out on the judges.

"Look ref, that guy's cheating! *BLAM*"

Also the way they tied the classes to the weapons was...annoying. Also the story was really silly and the theme was kind of childish and cartoony.

I had once heard the FFT story described as modern Shakespearian Tragedy, and it was. That story was deep, complex, and it pulled at your heartstring at every turn. It was like Game of Thrones before GoT was a thing because no character was safe, people were dying left and right; even committing suicide at times. It was dark.

-------

In other news, the new Duelyst patch (7 sisters) has been released. It's pretty cool. It adds 7 legendaries to the game and basically gives them all to you for free. I've already started crafting some neat decks with them.

There were some balance changes as well. Man, that's one thing I love about Duelyst. If a card receives changes at all, you get a FULL PRICE refund on the dust if you don't want it anymore. Man that's just so damn epic. I don't think Blizz would do that with Hearthstone in a million years. After he was removed from the regular mode, can you imagine how many people would have decrafted Dr. Boom for full price if given the opportunity? It would have caused a frenzy of people trying to get their money back on the level of the events leading up to the Great Depression.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #160 on: June 16, 2016, 04:37:32 pm »
So I just reached Gold Rank in Duelyst. I've actually done it before so it's not a big accomplishment or anything, but this came after opening 25 card packs yesterday, and the 7 Sisters expansion being released, which allowed me to create some pretty awesome decks that weren't available to me before.



Yes, that is a Mechaz0r in the background. I make no apologies :D

I could make even better decks were all the cards available to me so that's kind of a bummer, but at this point I'm getting like 150-200 gold a day, so it shouldn't take long to hopefully build everything I want. Well not EVERYTHING I want, because my creativity is basically endless; but everything I've wanted to build for a long time kind of thing.
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Offline crazyroosterman

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #161 on: June 16, 2016, 06:54:00 pm »
so I finally gave this a proper play and I think I'm love with it (: its got the sort of play I like from hs expect instead of the wacky try hardy bullshit it has actual interesting mechanics like for instance blast now THATS an interesting ability but does anybody else think its a bit weak sauce? particularly since you don't seem to be able to go diagonally?
the shadow watcher seems really power full if you can get going with the number token numbers
and something I discovered to my amusement is that giving scions second wish on a provoke creature and then putting it next to the enemy general makes it impossible for him to do anything provided he cant kill it with a spell and that you can deal with any creatures he throws out.
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Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #162 on: June 17, 2016, 04:17:31 pm »
Hmm, think I'll add Duelyst to the queue to play. I'm looking for something post Hearthstone and have been poking around in Chronicle: Runescape Legends but it's not pushing the right buttons for me.
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Offline crazyroosterman

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #163 on: June 17, 2016, 04:32:40 pm »
Hmm, think I'll add Duelyst to the queue to play. I'm looking for something post Hearthstone and have been poking around in Chronicle: Runescape Legends but it's not pushing the right buttons for me.
id absolutely recommend it so far it seems better balanced and is giving me the chance to buy packs at a fair frequency but just as a warning if you get into a match with an abyssian and they get a shadow watcher kill that thing hard those things can ramp up endless ley given the chance.
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Hearthstone
« Reply #164 on: June 17, 2016, 04:33:22 pm »
Hmm, think I'll add Duelyst to the queue to play. I'm looking for something post Hearthstone and have been poking around in Chronicle: Runescape Legends but it's not pushing the right buttons for me.
I'm curious as to why it isn't. I was kinda interested in that game, just because of how different it was. For CCGs I have Shadow Era. Don't need anything else.
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