Borderlands 2

[zespri]

I just picked up Borderlands 2 on steam sale and there is something I don't understand about its implementation of combat. I chose gunzerker as my class and I noticed those things

• You run out of ammo real fast. In most fights I'm out of ammo by the middle of the fight. There is a limit how much ammo you can carry so it's not possible to start the fight with enough ammo
• Punching adversaries in the face deals significately more damage than shooting at them. Really? Why is that? And I'm not complaining about realism, just about combat mechanics. How is this supposed to work?
• Additionally shooting at enemy point blank seems to deal the same puny damage you deal when you shoot at distance.
• Can't stock up on health potions. They are used on pick-up. How backwards is that?
• Everything costs money. The freaking potions you pick up cost money. When you die it costs money. One of the first quests that you have is to buy a shield and that sucks you dry out of your pocket.

I'm level 4 so far.
Now I understand that not each game is for everybody and sometimes you just don't like mechanics. My last two points seems to fall into that category so this is mostly bit*ing. But the first three, I would really like to make sense of. You see, I'd like to like this game but I feel like I do not understand how this particular implementation of combat is supposed to work. Could you please share your experience.

[Hearteater]

The ammo situation will resolve itself as you get a bit further. For the late game you can buy ammo capacity upgrades later.

[orzelek]

Hmm tbh never did gunzerker but ammo situation you describe is kinda extreme. That punching thing might be slightly related to class but I'm not sure.
It seems like you have weapons that work based on spray and pray. I'm more of a sniper guy so I can run through few combats at start with sniper and assault rifle.

Ahh also look into anything that looks like container and has a green light - all of those can contain ammo. At starting location also some of the snow mounds are destructible and also drop cash/ammo.

[Toranth]

Hmm tbh never did gunzerker but ammo situation you describe is kinda extreme. That punching thing might be slightly related to class but I'm not sure.
It seems like you have weapons that work based on spray and pray. I'm more of a sniper guy so I can run through few combats at start with sniper and assault rifle.

Ahh also look into anything that looks like container and has a green light - all of those can contain ammo. At starting location also some of the snow mounds are destructible and also drop cash/ammo.

I always had ammo issues in that game, I just needed to keep switching weapons and buying more ammo capacity upgrades.  Once you can buy upgrades, that is.

At the Level 4 point in time, players still in the tutorial phase, so they shouldn't be surprised there are limits.  By level 10-ish, it should be less of an issue, and money will certainly stop being an issue.

[Misery]

• Can't stock up on health potions. They are used on pick-up. How backwards is that?

Wait, what?

There's an FPS actually using this type of healing model?  Really? 

I havent seen this since the days of Doom.  The ability to just heal "whenever" is one of the things that made me lose interest in the FPS genre as a whole (it's way, WAY too easy most of the time, and thus boring).  I'd wondered if any of them were going to do anything like this again.  This has my interest now.

[madcow]

I played through as siren myself.

You can buy ammo upgrades later which really help.  It also helps to have different weapons in each slot. You basically need to vary up the guns so that you conserve ammo. Loot all the boxes and be sure to buy ammo at vending machines as well.



I'll go on a side tangent to rant my big beef with the game. I thought it was fun at first, but as I got to the end (especially playing the DLC after the main campaign at levels 40+) it just became a tedious slog.


To be honest though, I didn't really find the game as good as many people. The writing wasn't just bad, it really detracted from the game for me. The "jokes" and writing (hello claptrap & jack) are that cringe-worthy.  The looting mechanic wasn't that great either. Basically by mid to late game, you will almost never find good weapons out in the wild despite how many drop. The only real way to upgrade weapons is using the golden key chests (check the wiki and you can get more than you need). Late game, the enemies get so damage-spongy that it's not even funny. The small guys aren't really an issue. The badasses can take so much damage, by the last area of the last dlc it was such a slog to go through I was just ready to end it all.

Mindlessly killing stuff was fun, but about halfway through it kind of starts to get tedious, and once you notice how fundamentally broken the loot system and damage-sponge nature of enemies is - it kind of kills the experience.

Edit: There's two forms of health. A shield which regenerates, and health which requires a pickup. Many enemies drop health when killed, and you can buy health at vending machines. The shield regenerates like most modern FPS games. So it's kind of halo-esque in that regard.

[Coppermantis]

• Can't stock up on health potions. They are used on pick-up. How backwards is that?

Wait, what?

There's an FPS actually using this type of healing model?  Really? 

I havent seen this since the days of Doom.  The ability to just heal "whenever" is one of the things that made me lose interest in the FPS genre as a whole (it's way, WAY too easy most of the time, and thus boring).  I'd wondered if any of them were going to do anything like this again.  This has my interest now.

Half-life 2 does this too. I always liked that model better since it allows the designer better control over the flow of the game and that heal-anytime mechanics tend to mean that fighting becomes balanced around wars of attrition rather than skillful play. Also, it's great for instilling a sense of dread--"there's a bunch of health pickups right here, what's about to happen?"

[Misery]

I played through as siren myself.

You can buy ammo upgrades later which really help.  It also helps to have different weapons in each slot. You basically need to vary up the guns so that you conserve ammo. Loot all the boxes and be sure to buy ammo at vending machines as well.



I'll go on a side tangent to rant my big beef with the game. I thought it was fun at first, but as I got to the end (especially playing the DLC after the main campaign at levels 40+) it just became a tedious slog.


To be honest though, I didn't really find the game as good as many people. The writing wasn't just bad, it really detracted from the game for me. The "jokes" and writing (hello claptrap & jack) are that cringe-worthy.  The looting mechanic wasn't that great either. Basically by mid to late game, you will almost never find good weapons out in the wild despite how many drop. The only real way to upgrade weapons is using the golden key chests (check the wiki and you can get more than you need). Late game, the enemies get so damage-spongy that it's not even funny. The small guys aren't really an issue. The badasses can take so much damage, by the last area of the last dlc it was such a slog to go through I was just ready to end it all.

Mindlessly killing stuff was fun, but about halfway through it kind of starts to get tedious, and once you notice how fundamentally broken the loot system and damage-sponge nature of enemies is - it kind of kills the experience.

Edit: There's two forms of health. A shield which regenerates, and health which requires a pickup. Many enemies drop health when killed, and you can buy health at vending machines. The shield regenerates like most modern FPS games. So it's kind of halo-esque in that regard.

Yep, alot of these are issues/elements of a Diablo style game, which is exactly what Borderlands is and always has been, albeit in FPS form.  Getting truly good equipment is difficult, yet you need it in order to progress.  Well, in most of that genre anyway;  this one seems to lack the part where "need" really does mean NEED.  As I understand it this one can still be entirely gone through even if your equipment is sub-par.  Which isnt really viable in most games that use Diablo style mechanics.

[madcow]

I've played a lot of diablo-esque games (starting with the first diablo heh. Find memories playing that on dial up!). Borderlands just the lootig mechanic exceptionally badly. I don't mean good guns rarely drop. I mean during a regular playthrough. Gun replacements never drop. Literally the only way to get half decent weapons is through loot chests.

I'm sure some people play through gear runs against bosses hoping for certain drops, but I've never enjoyed that. And I had a blast on the other diablo-likes playing that way and there is a decent gear progression. Borderlands just has an exceptionally bad loot system.

Loot games that have such a bad chance of dropping decent stuff that I literally stopped checking them at all feel like they're missing the point.

[Misery]

I've played a lot of diablo-esque games (starting with the first diablo heh. Find memories playing that on dial up!). Borderlands just the lootig mechanic exceptionally badly. I don't mean good guns rarely drop. I mean during a regular playthrough. Gun replacements never drop. Literally the only way to get half decent weapons is through loot chests.

I'm sure some people play through gear runs against bosses hoping for certain drops, but I've never enjoyed that. And I had a blast on the other diablo-likes playing that way and there is a decent gear progression. Borderlands just has an exceptionally bad loot system.

Loot games that have such a bad chance of dropping decent stuff that I literally stopped checking them at all feel like they're missing the point.

Aye, that's a good point.  I forget who it was but there was some developer who explained the psychology behind a good loot system;  which is that while a great many loot drops in such a game are crappy (particularly in a game such as Path of Exile where enemies explode into swords and helmets like some sort of horribly distorted piñata) there's always that CHANCE, however small, that the next drop could be the one that gives you something great.  So you keep going, because "it might be the very next one!  I gotta go a bit further to find out!".

So it is indeed kinda derpy if a game of this sort doesnt manage that.

[zespri]

Yep, alot of these are issues/elements of a Diablo style game, which is exactly what Borderlands is and always has been, albeit in FPS form.  Getting truly good equipment is difficult, yet you need it in order to progress.  Well, in most of that genre anyway;  this one seems to lack the part where "need" really does mean NEED.  As I understand it this one can still be entirely gone through even if your equipment is sub-par.  Which isnt really viable in most games that use Diablo style mechanics.

As you can see I have not played that much, but this was the main attraction to me - "look it's just like Diablo, but different, that's going to be fun!" I don't really like FPS. Doom 3 was a rare exception, that one was outstanding.