Author Topic: Guild Wars 2  (Read 27206 times)

Offline Wingflier

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,753
  • To add me on Steam, click the little Steam icon ^
Re: Guild Wars 2
« Reply #45 on: March 17, 2016, 03:33:25 am »
Quote
I mean, buying the expansion is going to require the base game to run anyway and trying to double dip on new players to require them to buy both the base-game and expansion as separate purchases won't win you any fans.
Granted, BUT I feel like there should be some sort of discount (even up to 50%) to those who already own the base game. I mean it's only fair right?

Technically the game is F2P, so you don't have to spend any money on it at all. So to those who already bought the core game before the F2P model came out, I mean in some way they already got screwed over, but the expansion giving you all the benefits of the base game + the expansion just seems like the nail in the coffin.

Quote
As for me, I definitely regret buying that expansion because I only lasted another month before quitting for a while. I never should have bought it but I thought some friends were going to keep playing. When they didn't, I lost the last bit of interest I had in it.
That's really sad to hear, and really sad to know that they didn't reduce the grinding at all in the expansion (which was my main beef with the game). The grinding was just extremely intense, I don't know what else to say. For a game that marketed itself as "the end of grinding", I don't know if I've ever had to grind that much in any MMO I've ever played.

Perhaps it wasn't supposed to feel like grinding, but it did. Then again, when I played the servers were already dying, so things could have changed with the huge influx of players during the F2P transition.  A lot of the game's "quest areas" (or whatever they're called) were really made for a lot of people at once.
"Inner peace is the void of expectation. It is the absence of our shared desperation to feel a certain way."

Offline Aklyon

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,089
Re: Guild Wars 2
« Reply #46 on: March 17, 2016, 03:49:09 am »
I wouldn't call it now having f2p having screwed over anyone Wingflier, anyone still around certainly must've gotten at least the original price worth out of the game, and you certainly don't need to get the ultimate edition, from the look of that. I would just call it older b2p mmo makes expansion, continues being b2p, but now with a semiunlimited trial mode.

Offline Wingflier

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,753
  • To add me on Steam, click the little Steam icon ^
Re: Guild Wars 2
« Reply #47 on: March 17, 2016, 04:24:24 am »
Hmmm, if it doesn't seem as unfair to others as it does to myself, perhaps I should re-evaluate my opinion.

Though I'm not sure what "the original price worth" out of the game would even entail, especially given that the game was so badly received on launch (at one point it was down to a few thousand players before it went F2P), but that would be extremely hard to do, in my view, because of the reasons stated. HoT fixed most of the major problems with the game (or at least that's what it was marketed as doing), but the people who supported the company before they fixed all the major flaws in the expansion seem to be the only ones leaving empty-handed.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2016, 04:29:43 am by Wingflier »
"Inner peace is the void of expectation. It is the absence of our shared desperation to feel a certain way."

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,332
  • A Paladin Without A Crusade...
Re: Guild Wars 2
« Reply #48 on: March 17, 2016, 06:36:33 am »

Quote
As for me, I definitely regret buying that expansion because I only lasted another month before quitting for a while. I never should have bought it but I thought some friends were going to keep playing. When they didn't, I lost the last bit of interest I had in it.
That's really sad to hear, and really sad to know that they didn't reduce the grinding at all in the expansion (which was my main beef with the game). The grinding was just extremely intense, I don't know what else to say. For a game that marketed itself as "the end of grinding", I don't know if I've ever had to grind that much in any MMO I've ever played.

Perhaps it wasn't supposed to feel like grinding, but it did. Then again, when I played the servers were already dying, so things could have changed with the huge influx of players during the F2P transition.  A lot of the game's "quest areas" (or whatever they're called) were really made for a lot of people at once.

Honestly, I think the problem with GW2 is that its all so meaningless and the combat is just rinse and repeat spells until all creatures in the area die. I just hate the combat if I'm being blunt, it's far too steeped in WoW's to be enjoyable. I think the WoW combat model needs a complete and total re-thinking to make it less about standing in one place and beating the crap out of anything that moves. That's what kills me too because it clearly tries to make the player move around but then there are abitrary limitations to dodge rolling and most of your spells require you to face the target and be within range of them and there's not a lot of reason to move around.

I give them kudos for trying to have world and local events that can affect the game but they never matter in the long run. And kudos for trying to make questing as rewarding as possible but. Oh no, a city got captured by some enemy! Well, just wait 20 minutes and we'll be able to recapture it from them. Nothing is permanently affected, just a minor inconvenience. For as alive as the world pretends to be and how quests try to hide their numbers, you start figuring out that the world is rather static and the quests will require a certain amount of time. Sure, they vary but ultimately the result is the same. The only time the world permanently changes is when the developers make it so. As such, it's hard to get invested into it.

About the only thing that really held my attention was the actual story missions. Those seemed to have the best ideas put into them with actual hard choices that permanently affected "the world" of the player. Unfortunately, they're also marred by the combat so I just went meh....

Did I mention I don't like the combat? Because I really don't.
Casual reviewer with a sense of justice.
Visit the Arcen Mantis to help: https://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/
A Paladin's Blog. Long form videogame reviews focusing on mechanics and narrative analyzing. Plus other stuff. www.kingisaaclinksr.com

Offline Aklyon

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,089
Re: Guild Wars 2
« Reply #49 on: March 17, 2016, 01:22:10 pm »
Yeah, the combat was pretty eh from what I'd seen of it from f2p.

Offline TheVampire100

  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,382
  • Ordinary Vampire
Re: Guild Wars 2
« Reply #50 on: March 17, 2016, 03:13:54 pm »
When it comes to combat in MMOs I think Mabinogi is still on the top.

I never played Guild Wars 2 despite having a copy (from a computer mag). Charging for an expansion is not unusual in MMOs that went from pay to play to free to play. defiance has turned as well to F2P but still sells the expansions for the full price.
44$ sounds however a little much for an expansion. And the 100$ packet is way over the top but not the most expensive piece of junk I've ever seen. Eelectronic Arts does this since ages, charging for stuff that should be literally part of the game. And int heir freemium games it is common practice to sell packages of premium currency for 100$.
Of couse you cannot compare this, GW2 is a full fledged MMORPG with story, questing and other stuff but it does it in a similiar way. "Pay us extra and you get a lot of our premium currency in the game."

Offline Wingflier

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,753
  • To add me on Steam, click the little Steam icon ^
Re: Guild Wars 2
« Reply #51 on: March 17, 2016, 03:40:54 pm »
I'm just surprised that people are so accepting of it.

Just think, if a company like EA did this.

First, force people to pay full price for the game. Then, when you find that method to be unsustainable, make it free to play. Then create an expansion with all the content and features the original was supposed to have, and charge people full price for it again. But ignore the original paying customers because, "They should have gotten their money's worth".

Can you imagine if Uber had done this for Planetary Annihilation? There would have been an absolute outrage. PA:Titans was free for all the Kickstarter backers and less than $10 for anyone who already owned the game. People wanted to kill them. Maybe things are different in the MMO world, I don't know. I just highly doubt this model would have succeeded in any other case.
"Inner peace is the void of expectation. It is the absence of our shared desperation to feel a certain way."

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,332
  • A Paladin Without A Crusade...
Re: Guild Wars 2
« Reply #52 on: March 17, 2016, 05:47:33 pm »
First, force people to pay full price for the game.
Except no one is forcing anyone to pay full price for any game. I get what you're saying but it should be clear that of course companies are going to expect a price when they launch the title and expect you to pay for it if you want to play. 
Then, when you find that method to be unsustainable, make it free to play. Then create an expansion with all the content and features the original was supposed to have, and charge people full price for it again. But ignore the original paying customers because, "They should have gotten their money's worth".
It's not the greatest thing to do to your customers, I won't dispute that. But I've seen worse behavior. This is an MMO which has a general acceptance that you're going to pay money to play on it. And considering that if people had been paying a subscription to play GW2, they would have paid $500+ by this point. ($15 per month for three years). In addition to the initial asking price of $50/60?. And let's be real, you don't need the $100 version of the expansion, that's a bonus to those willing to pay the money. But it generally seems like a silly thing to do. Should they get a discount? It's extremely debatable. But the thing is, they technically gave people who bought the original game a bonus. Even if that bonus wasn't that great to you, they did at least try.

Can you imagine if Uber had done this for Planetary Annihilation? There would have been an absolute outrage. PA:Titans was free for all the Kickstarter backers and less than $10 for anyone who already owned the game. People wanted to kill them. Maybe things are different in the MMO world, I don't know. I just highly doubt this model would have succeeded in any other case.

Planetary Annihilation is not an MMO, it's a traditional RTS that I'm assuming has no or limited server costs. It was a company whose game was Kickstarted promising certain features to its backers on initial release. They failed to do that and released a product in a troubled state. Titans was certainly a step in the right direction for its backers but they did anger those who bought the game on release. That anger was probably not justified, speaking as someone who was angry about it. Arenanet doesn't have that same set of expectations on them and even then, they at least released a product and continued to support it three years afterwards without charging for an expansion and making sure the game worked. Were certain things still not put in three years later? I guess so according to what you said. But no one can say that they give those original $50 purchasers nothing.
Casual reviewer with a sense of justice.
Visit the Arcen Mantis to help: https://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/
A Paladin's Blog. Long form videogame reviews focusing on mechanics and narrative analyzing. Plus other stuff. www.kingisaaclinksr.com

Offline Wingflier

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,753
  • To add me on Steam, click the little Steam icon ^
Re: Guild Wars 2
« Reply #53 on: March 17, 2016, 07:41:56 pm »
Quote
Except no one is forcing anyone to pay full price for any game. I get what you're saying but it should be clear that of course companies are going to expect a price when they launch the title and expect you to pay for it if you want to play. 
Wording here. I should have said "ask".

Quote
It's not the greatest thing to do to your customers, I won't dispute that. But I've seen worse behavior. This is an MMO which has a general acceptance that you're going to pay money to play on it. And considering that if people had been paying a subscription to play GW2, they would have paid $500+ by this point. ($15 per month for three years).
Well that's my point though. Most of the paying customers had quit before it went free to play, in large part because of the game's problems. The F2P transition was, in some ways, a last ditch effort (that worked). So the idea that you would have been using the paid account for 3 years seems a little farfetched to begin with. I mean ideally that's the way it works, but ideally Uberent would have had a better release with the original PA.

Quote
But the thing is, they technically gave people who bought the original game a bonus. Even if that bonus wasn't that great to you, they did at least try.
A bonus over the free to play users? Certainly (my god if they didn't at least do that, it would have been practically unforgivable). But technically, the Free to play users who went on and bought the expansion got a bonus over the original purchasers. They paid $10 less, got the original game + the massive amount of expansion content.

Quote
Planetary Annihilation is not an MMO, it's a traditional RTS that I'm assuming has no or limited server costs.
I agree with most of what you said in your last paragraph, but perhaps not this part. I'm pretty sure PA has some substantial server costs, because the entire game is hosted on their servers. You can't even play single-player without using an Uberent server. That's because the entire design was centered around server-side hosting, which would prevent the inevitable lag problems that most RTS games have in multiplayer, when one person's computer can no longer handle the strain and slows down everybody else. And given that their servers simulate Solar Systems, I would imagine that the cost of this is not negligable, but obviously not on the same scale as an MMO, I'll grant you.

Anyway, you're right about one thing: If I don't like the way they do business, I don't have to purchase the expansion. I do think the way they did it was a little scummy. I see no harm in giving a hefty discount on the expansion for those who already owned the original game (hell, when Titans did it, people STILL complained as if Uber had shot their dogs and stolen their girlfriends), but in the end what happened happened so, it's up to the customer now whether to encourage it.
"Inner peace is the void of expectation. It is the absence of our shared desperation to feel a certain way."

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,109
Re: Guild Wars 2
« Reply #54 on: March 17, 2016, 08:02:26 pm »
Honestly, I think the problem with GW2 is that its all so meaningless and the combat is just rinse and repeat spells until all creatures in the area die. I just hate the combat if I'm being blunt, it's far too steeped in WoW's to be enjoyable. I think the WoW combat model needs a complete and total re-thinking to make it less about standing in one place and beating the crap out of anything that moves. That's what kills me too because it clearly tries to make the player move around but then there are abitrary limitations to dodge rolling and most of your spells require you to face the target and be within range of them and there's not a lot of reason to move around.

I'll agree with the bit about the combat, ugh.

I used to be really into MMOs.  Like, really into them. You name it, I've probably played it.  But.... as I often tell people, WoW came along and freaking CORRUPTED the genre.  It's dead to me now, and it's entirely because of that one damn game.  And the fact that corporate suits are too damn stupid to do anything other than stare at WoW and go "I know!  That game over there prints money... if we copy it, we'll be DROWNING in the stuff!" so every game does it... ugh.   And WoW's combat is TERRIBLE to begin with.  Hell, you dont even need to pay attention to WHAT you're fighting.  Is it a skeleton?  A flaming monkey?  An alien from space?  A magical entity from ancient times?  It doesnt matter; internally, there's barely even stat differences, all you need to know is what level it is.   And then you just hit your typical spells over and over.

Someone once told me that "With WoW, the REAL fun begins at level 60!!!!111", since the devs went totally overboard with the blasted raid stuff.  And so other games now do that sort of thing too.  Where the entire game may as well JUST be raids, because that's all the devs actually care about.  So every other part of the game... mindless grinding.   See, I'd rather have a game where the real fun begins at level 1... maybe I'm just crazy.  And when you DO raids, you cant even see what's going on!  You just watch arbitrary little meters and occaisionally hit buttons.  Ugh.   I dont know if GW2 had that issue, I never got particularly far in it.

I *do* remember their attempt to make the combat sound "active" though, with that stupid dodge roll.  But I remember groaning when I heard about that, because I had a feeling as to what they were going to do with it.  I mean, MMOs are basically like normal RPGs... they're not exactly about extreme coordination and reflexes.  Most MMO or just normal RPG fans I know of IRL, that tend to stick to JUST games like that, are slower then a brick in sludge when it comes to reacting to things, and not very coordinated either.  So in an MMO with dodging, if you give the players *full* dodging, as in, unrestricted, anyone with actual reflexes will be damn near invincible compared to... basically every other average player.  BETTER DUMB IT DOWN!!!  Restrictions!  Why the stupid dodging is even in that game, is something I never figured out.

Bah.  I'll stop here before this becomes another one of my full rants about the MMO genre.  I havent played one in ages.  The last straw for me was City of Heroes shutting down.  That game did everything right.  It was grand.  And then it shut down, and... yeah, I was just done after that.  Havent touched the genre since.   For those that have... has ANYTHING changed?  Or is everyone STILL just copying WoW? 


I will say one other thing though:  I still remember the ORIGINAL Guild Wars.  Back when it first came out.  Now THAT was different... there wasnt really anything else like it.   Why they couldnt have just stuck to the formula it created initially, I dont know.  At least we'd have something INTERESTING on our hands maybe.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2016, 08:05:22 pm by Misery »

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,332
  • A Paladin Without A Crusade...
Re: Guild Wars 2
« Reply #55 on: March 17, 2016, 08:06:21 pm »
Quote
Except no one is forcing anyone to pay full price for any game. I get what you're saying but it should be clear that of course companies are going to expect a price when they launch the title and expect you to pay for it if you want to play. 
Wording here. I should have said "ask".

Quote
It's not the greatest thing to do to your customers, I won't dispute that. But I've seen worse behavior. This is an MMO which has a general acceptance that you're going to pay money to play on it. And considering that if people had been paying a subscription to play GW2, they would have paid $500+ by this point. ($15 per month for three years).
Well that's my point though. Most of the paying customers had quit before it went free to play, in large part because of the game's problems. The F2P transition was, in some ways, a last ditch effort (that worked). So the idea that you would have been using the paid account for 3 years seems a little farfetched to begin with. I mean ideally that's the way it works, but ideally Uberent would have had a better release with the original PA.

Quote
But the thing is, they technically gave people who bought the original game a bonus. Even if that bonus wasn't that great to you, they did at least try.
A bonus over the free to play users? Certainly (my god if they didn't at least do that, it would have been practically unforgivable). But technically, the Free to play users who went on and bought the expansion got a bonus over the original purchasers. They paid $10 less, got the original game + the massive amount of expansion content.

Quote
Planetary Annihilation is not an MMO, it's a traditional RTS that I'm assuming has no or limited server costs.
I agree with most of what you said in your last paragraph, but perhaps not this part. I'm pretty sure PA has some substantial server costs, because the entire game is hosted on their servers. You can't even play single-player without using an Uberent server. That's because the entire design was centered around server-side hosting, which would prevent the inevitable lag problems that most RTS games have in multiplayer, when one person's computer can no longer handle the strain and slows down everybody else. And given that their servers simulate Solar Systems, I would imagine that the cost of this is not negligable, but obviously not on the same scale as an MMO, I'll grant you.

Anyway, you're right about one thing: If I don't like the way they do business, I don't have to purchase the expansion. I do think the way they did it was a little scummy. I see no harm in giving a hefty discount on the expansion for those who already owned the original game (hell, when Titans did it, people STILL complained as if Uber had shot their dogs and stolen their girlfriends), but in the end what happened happened so, it's up to the customer now whether to encourage it.
Oops, I completely forgot about the always online component. I have no idea how as we discussed that at length....

But I'll still grant that us angry people, regardless of server costs, overreacted to Titans. Which isn't to say that they couldn't have handled that better but our response was way over the top.
Casual reviewer with a sense of justice.
Visit the Arcen Mantis to help: https://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/
A Paladin's Blog. Long form videogame reviews focusing on mechanics and narrative analyzing. Plus other stuff. www.kingisaaclinksr.com

Offline Wingflier

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,753
  • To add me on Steam, click the little Steam icon ^
Re: Guild Wars 2
« Reply #56 on: March 17, 2016, 08:54:03 pm »
Quote
I will say one other thing though:  I still remember the ORIGINAL Guild Wars.  Back when it first came out.  Now THAT was different... there wasnt really anything else like it.   Why they couldnt have just stuck to the formula it created initially, I dont know.  At least we'd have something INTERESTING on our hands maybe.
Oh man, the original Guild Wars was an amazing game. So ahead of it's time. So ahead of its time in fact, that nothing has even been able to replicate its virtues, not even Guild Wars 2.

The thing that made GW1 so amazing though wasn't the PvE (which I found to be lackluster myself, even though at the very least it was extremely story driven), it was the PvP.

In Guild Wars 1 you could start a max level PvP character from the very beginning, and just skip all the hassle and bull**** of the infamously grindy PvE portion of any given MMO.

And man, was the PvP fun. What made GW2 pvp fun was simply the diversity of options the game afforded you. Whatever you can think of, you could it. It wasn't like the typical MMO where it's tank/healer/DPS. The game had 8 classes, and any class could become a hybrid with any other class, giving you an incredible amount of options. Each class had around 100 skills, and the player could have 8 skills in their skillbar, so you do the math. The amount of class customization (and not in a retarded, superficial way) was near limitless.

The kind of things you would experience in PvP would need to be seen to be believed. You never KNEW what you were going to encounter next, because the only bottleneck to potential builds was each player's creativity. Sure, there were cookie-cutter builds that you saw often, but there were so many ways to counter them that generally, anything which become too popular was like a curse upon itself.

The battle interactions were definitely the most exciting thing I've ever experienced in an MMO or RPG pvp setting. My god, the game had MAGE battles. Seriously, it was basically Harry Potter. Anything you wanted to do, you could do. Massive direct damage? Check. AoE death over a large area? Check. Damage over time that also heals you? Check. Oh what's that, you don't want your opponent to cast spells at all? You could create an entire build whose only job was to cripple enemy mages, countering every spell they attempted to cast and shutting them down to near uselessness, allowing your team to finish them off.

One of the things that really made it shine were the amount of proactive/reactive choices the player was forced to make at any given time. Imagine as a healer, your teammates are dying, and your only job is to save them. But you have a hex on you which deals massive damage each time you cast a spell. Do you continue to heal your friends, putting your own life in danger, or wait until it wears off, and hope you can save what's left?

Of course allies could then take any kind of negative hex or curse off of you, and sometimes even place it on somebody else.

I mean...you know what I'm done trying to explain it. It was incredible. Play, counterplay, proactive, reactive, outsmart your opponent, outdamage your opponent, punish him for every action, or prevent him from even taking action. It was all there, you could do it.

I was really hoping that they would take this same philosophy and apply it to Guild Wars 2, but they most definitely did not. The classes became much more cookie-cutter, the cross-class hybridization was removed, and apparently since the instanced-based server architecture of the first game had been removed in favor of the typical mass server MMO style, the game can't handle the same kind of quick-reflex mechanics the original one had, so they had to drop that in favor of a more...traditional MMO approach (we'll all do a bunch of damage weeeeeee!)
"Inner peace is the void of expectation. It is the absence of our shared desperation to feel a certain way."

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,109
Re: Guild Wars 2
« Reply #57 on: March 17, 2016, 09:16:16 pm »
Yeah, honestly, GW2 really was Guild Wars in name only.  Aside from the name, it may as well just be any other boring MMO.  All, I assume, because of corporate stupidity.  And WoW.  Have I mentioned I hate WoW?  'Cause I do.  I always respect Blizzard as a dev, but I wish that game had never existed.

At the very least I wish it would come to a freaking END sometime this century.  It's held on WAY too long.  And is still corrupting the genre.

Offline TheVampire100

  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,382
  • Ordinary Vampire
Re: Guild Wars 2
« Reply #58 on: March 17, 2016, 09:25:17 pm »
I'm glad that I never played WoW. It does not seem like a good MMo but everyone pretends it is.
I like the comple combart from Mabinogi but I don't know if it is similiar to WoW (i doubt it).
Generally it is a Rock-Paper-Scissor System. Diffeent abilities negate other abilities. Autoattack beats Smash, Smah, a slower but stronger version of the standard attack, beats defense, Defense beats the normal attack. Counterattack beats both normal attack and smash, windmill beats counterattack. And Normal attack beats windmill. And don't get me started on the non-standard attacks.

I do however think that int he last years Mabinogi kind of suffered from the typical MMO illness, that it tries to copy other stuff. it ran multiple Anime-crossovers which certainly don't fit the game or its lore. And they launched a new "class", the ninja, which is more like the Nauroto interpretaion of ninjas.
There were also the dual gunners along the way, who are no brainers to use compared to the complex arhers that existed before. I hink Mabinogi tried to make the game more intuitive and engaging for newer players that complained the system was hard to learn because it wasn't like other MMOs.

Offline Mánagarmr

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,272
  • if (isInRange(target)) { kill(target); }
Re: Guild Wars 2
« Reply #59 on: March 17, 2016, 09:35:36 pm »
But the grind is so mind-numbing that I basically have to run YouTube/Netflix/Hulu on the other monitor to keep interested in the game. I know for some on here, *cough* Managarmr *cough* that's nothing special but I don't do that
Hey now! It's not my fault my brain is overactive and 90% of all games don't manage to keep me interested or engaged enough. :(
Click here to get started with Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports.

Thank you for contributing to making the game better!