Author Topic: Gratuitous Tank Battles  (Read 6553 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Gratuitous Tank Battles
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2012, 12:35:54 pm »
Ah, good to hear it worked out :)  Certainly not the first "Mea Driver Culpa" incident I've seen.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Coppermantis

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,212
  • Avenger? I hardly know 'er!
Re: Gratuitous Tank Battles
« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2012, 09:43:20 pm »
Just going to chime in and say I've really enjoyed my GSB experience thus far. If I had money to spare I'd certainly buy GTB as well. The lack of controllable ships isn't an issue for me, I rather like the uniqueness.
I can already tell this is going to be a roller coaster ride of disappointment.

Offline orzelek

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,096
Re: Gratuitous Tank Battles
« Reply #32 on: May 20, 2012, 01:31:53 pm »
Heh always something nice to find in here.
While I didn't enjoy the space ones.. I'm sucker for tower defense of any kind :D

While I'm not sure how all this destroyable TD works.. lets see :)

Offline chemical_art

  • Core Member Mark IV
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,952
  • Fabulous
Re: Gratuitous Tank Battles
« Reply #33 on: May 20, 2012, 07:45:37 pm »
Heh always something nice to find in here.
While I didn't enjoy the space ones.. I'm sucker for tower defense of any kind :D

While I'm not sure how all this destroyable TD works.. lets see :)

Do yourself a favor:

NEVER look up a guide.

Half the fun is discover the most efficient way to play the game.

Don't short change that fun.
Life is short. Have fun.

Offline zespri

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,109
Re: Gratuitous Tank Battles
« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2012, 10:27:37 pm »
Do yourself a favor:

NEVER look up a guide.

Half the fun is discover the most efficient way to play the game.

Don't short change that fun.
You know, everyone is different. What works for you may not work for me and the other way round. If a person makes a concious choice to short-circuit I'd gave them some credit and not just assume they did it because they did not have the capacity to restrain themselves.

Offline Volatar

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,055
  • Patient as a rock
Re: Gratuitous Tank Battles
« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2012, 09:30:56 pm »
Do yourself a favor:

NEVER look up a guide.

Half the fun is discover the most efficient way to play the game.

Don't short change that fun.
You know, everyone is different. What works for you may not work for me and the other way round. If a person makes a concious choice to short-circuit I'd gave them some credit and not just assume they did it because they did not have the capacity to restrain themselves.

You think too much of people.

Offline zespri

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,109
Re: Gratuitous Tank Battles
« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2012, 03:01:07 am »
You know what, it worked... (your ad) If they have a demo I'll be trying it when I have a bit of time.
Now there is a demo on steam. In case anyone else is interested.

Offline Volatar

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,055
  • Patient as a rock
Re: Gratuitous Tank Battles
« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2012, 09:46:19 am »

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Gratuitous Tank Battles
« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2012, 10:55:29 am »
I spent some time with the demo when it came out and enjoyed it, but one of the main issues with GSB appears to still be present: balance.  That said, it was fun.

I initially focused on 5 custom unit designs when playing defender: shield-stripping infantry, shield-stripping turrets, hull-killing infantry, and hull-killing turrets (there's also armor but I found those 4 units could handle the armor without specific bonuses against it), and an infantry-killing light machine gun turret.

That worked pretty well, and all were necessary: the shield-stripping stuff was generally ineffective against armor, and the hull-killing stuff was generally ineffective against shields (laser infantry against a shielded mech is an exercise in frustration for the infantry, for example).  And all but the hull-killing infantry was largely inefficient at killing enemy infantry.  But the anti-infantry machine gun turret could eat huge amounts of infantry for lunch (it's a super-hard counter).

Gradually I shifted more to just using as many of the heaviest cannon (anti-shield) turrets I could and filling in the relevant infantry trenches (infantry on defender mode was like 1/10th as expensive as on attack mode), and found that particularly when I used the range-upgrade augments those cannons could shred most things without difficulty.  But some of the heavy-armor tanks were troublesome.

But then one of my victory unlocks was the mkV missile launcher.  Game over, man.  Game over.  Well, not really, I still had a lot of fun, but it was like plasma torpedos from (early-in-the-patch-process) GSB all over again.  All I had to do in that game in the time when I played it heavily was stack as many plasma torp modules on my ships as was physically possible, put some half-decent shields/armor on, and plunk down as many copies of that as I could on each map.  There may have been a few exceptions, it's been a while for my memory.

Here the missile launcher seems to fill the same gap due to a combination of factors:
- It has no negative against either shields or armor (no bonus either, but this really sets it apart from cannons and lasers).  So it can effectively hurt mechs and tanks regardless of defensive loadout.
- It still has a major accuracy penalty against infantry (heavy cannon and heavy laser turrets have abysmal accuracy against infantry, to the point that they simply cannot take down large groups), BUT it does a significant area of splash damage.  So nowhere near as effective as a machine gun turret but still capable of mowing down swaths of infantry given sufficient time.
- It has the longest range of anything I've seen in the game thus far.  And the range-boost augment is percent-based, so that boosts it still higher.

So for defender mode I basically had 2 designs: the heaviest missile V turret I could build, and some anti-infantry/anti-hull infantry to fill out the trenches.  If the infantry weren't so cheap in defender mode I might not have bothered with them.

The results were basically superior to anything I'd done before, all around.  There were a few cases where judicious use of an anti-shield or anti-armor unit might have gotten some kills faster, but I think the missiles still would have outperformed overall.

Thankfully, this sort of balance issue is reasonably easy to fix (maybe make missiles fire a lot slower, be way more expensive, have penalties against both shields and armor or maybe just a big penalty against shields, etc), but as of the time I played mkV missiles were basically the "can kill anything reasonably well, and have so much range you can saturate an area of the map with their coverage" module.  My understanding is that the lower-mark missile modules aren't nearly as overpowered, so at least you have to get this unlock first to use the strategy, but I haven't tried the lower-mark ones.

Will it get fixed?  I dunno.  I don't know if the plasma-torp thing in GSB really got fixed or not, I think it did.  I think the main unbalancing thing left in GSB is the effectiveness of stationary ship designs.  There's a lot less room in GTB for that kind of thing because everything has to have all its primary slots filled (and you only get one of each primary slot type... not so happy about that).  So perhaps balance is more attainable here.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Wingflier

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,753
  • To add me on Steam, click the little Steam icon ^
Re: Gratuitous Tank Battles
« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2012, 11:30:06 am »
Unfortunately, Cliffksy doesn't seem to put a lot of attention/effort into balance, and I find it to be one of the main detractors of his games.

Nothing frustrates me more than developers or companies who continually pile on new content to their base game, without ever fixing the glaring problems that are there.

Of course I realize he's a one man show (well not really, I know he hires an artist to do some of the work), but this kind of design philosophy is unacceptable.  People in the GSB forum begged him for balance changes, there were entire threads where people had basically done all the numbers work for him, he just had to put it into the game.

Cliffsky's entire design philosophy seems to be "Wouldn't it be cool if?", then he makes something with that concept in mind, without a lot of attention to all the important details.  True multiplayer is another example of something the games lack.

For a $20 game (+inevitable expansions), this may not bug some people, but it bothers me immensely.
"Inner peace is the void of expectation. It is the absence of our shared desperation to feel a certain way."

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Gratuitous Tank Battles
« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2012, 12:00:14 pm »
The multiplayer thing I can understand not being there: that's really a freight-train-load of work.  And honestly some designs are incompatible with network multiplayer.  Does that mean those designs should never be explored?  Etc.  In GTB's case true multiplayer would be possible, but I imagine it would have made the game cost 50% more to make.  Given the relatively small percentage of customers that actually use multiplayer in most non-MMO/MOBA games (I may be missing a few multiplayer-primary genres there), I'm not exactly surprised he didn't take that deal.

On the balance philosophy... yea, that bugs me too.  My guess is that he figures the game is moddable enough for people to fix it (and that's mostly true), but that's not exactly what I call support ;)  One of the reasons I agree with Chris's "we don't do game-modding support" stance is that it forces us to solve balance problems (in a way that all players benefit, not just the mod-users), not farm them out.

So, probably another game that is fun but with way more (relatively-easily-reachable) potential than is ever actually reached except possibly via mod for those that know which mods to install.  I think it's still worth it, but yea, these frustrations are real and certainly not new either to the industry or this particular studio.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline chemical_art

  • Core Member Mark IV
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,952
  • Fabulous
Re: Gratuitous Tank Battles
« Reply #41 on: June 20, 2012, 01:34:51 pm »
Just tried GTB.

I don't know what to think.

It's much more...involved. Normally that's good. But my appeal for GSB was because it was not invovled.

I also don't like that you already have so much stuff. Starting out with MK III's or higher on so many things make earning MK II stuff feel wasted. Feels less incrementally. 

I feel bottled up on offense. Game feels like tower defense game variant. Not what I was hoping for. I was expecting tanks shooting each other and what not, not a tower game.

Meh, will try more after work.

Life is short. Have fun.

Offline chemical_art

  • Core Member Mark IV
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,952
  • Fabulous
Re: Gratuitous Tank Battles
« Reply #42 on: June 21, 2012, 01:44:46 am »
Played it a bit more.

Offense feels messy.

I did a map where I felt like I was losing the whole game. I had maybe 10% of the needed winning points when my supplies ran out. I had given up and just bought random units in all my lanes. I expected disaster.

But when I came back, I had won by the skin of my teeth?

lol wut.
Life is short. Have fun.

Offline chemical_art

  • Core Member Mark IV
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,952
  • Fabulous
Re: Gratuitous Tank Battles
« Reply #43 on: June 21, 2012, 04:39:34 am »
I'm really annoyed that the game gives some really advanced stuff, but keeps other hidden.

I want support units, but nope, can't have them while the AI does.

So I'm resigned to defense, because a good offense MUST have support.

GRRRR

Either give it all, with some upgrades (GSB) or just keep it all basic and allow it all to be upgraded.
Life is short. Have fun.

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Gratuitous Tank Battles
« Reply #44 on: June 21, 2012, 09:37:52 am »
So I'm resigned to defense, because a good offense MUST have support.
I found that just loading up a bunch of heavy tanks with missile Vs was enough (mixing it up got better results, but this worked) for the one offense map I played, but those aren't unlocked at the beginning either.

But yea, the unlock system feels immature: starting at the bottom and working up (not hopping all the way from I to V, but going in order or something like that) would feel much more "solid", I think.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!