Glorifying War

[Wingflier]

Recently I was visiting the Company of Heroes 2 website, and I came across one of their new trailers:  http://www.companyofheroes.com/news/company-heroes-2-debut-trailer-has-arrived

I found it interesting because they called it the "Forgotten Sacrifice Trailer".

You'll have to watch it yourself, but basically the premise is that the Russians gave up astronomically more soldiers (and innocent civilians) than the Allies did over the course of the war, and very few people know about it. The best way to remember "their sacrifice", I guess, is to glorify it in a video game?

I was a bit shocked when I read: "Their front, Their courage, Their story, Your War".

I don't know, it just seems like a crappy marketing gimmick gone wrong. What do you guys think?

[Hearteater]

I think if I had one wish, it would be that all modern warfare shooters disappeared from existence forever.  I can not think of a single redeeming quality in any of them.

With my second wish, I would then make those dang kids get off my lawn.

[keith.lamothe]

... Interesting.  That trailer isn't the angle I would have taken.  There was a great deal of courage and sacrifice involved (by the troops, mainly) but that whole set of events is a hard one to celebrate; very bittersweet.  A lot of awful things were done, by the Axis, Allies, and Comintern, both outside the fighting itself and in it.

Seems risky territory for marketing material.  Though I guess it kind of comes with the subject of the game.

[tigersfan]

I think if I had one wish, it would be that all modern warfare shooters disappeared from existence forever.  I can not think of a single redeeming quality in any of them.

With my second wish, I would then make those dang kids get off my lawn.

But COH isn't a shooter.

[keith.lamothe]

I think if I had one wish, it would be that all modern warfare shooters disappeared from existence forever.  I can not think of a single redeeming quality in any of them.

With my second wish, I would then make those dang kids get off my lawn.

But COH isn't a shooter.

But the guy with the shotgun on the porch is.  And you're on his lawn

[tigersfan]

I think if I had one wish, it would be that all modern warfare shooters disappeared from existence forever.  I can not think of a single redeeming quality in any of them.

With my second wish, I would then make those dang kids get off my lawn.

But COH isn't a shooter.

But the guy with the shotgun on the porch is.  And you're on his lawn

Heh. Being the oldest person on staff here. There are many times I feel like the guy on the porch.

[Hearteater]

I think if I had one wish, it would be that all modern warfare shooters disappeared from existence forever.  I can not think of a single redeeming quality in any of them.

With my second wish, I would then make those dang kids get off my lawn.

But COH isn't a shooter.

I stand by both wishes.

Actually, that trailer isn't as offensive as a lot of modern war games.  At least the kids that play it get a little education.

[Wingflier]

Out of curiosity, what is your beef with wargames Hearteater?

Or are you just against glorifying war in general?

[Hearteater]

I'm against modern FPS.  Modern combat makes for terrible gameplay, which means game makers have come up with a ton of really stupid mechanics to keep people interested, which completely negates all the important aspects of modern combat.  CS probably got it closest to correct, but I just found it boring.  I like my combat to have meat to it.  If I get completely destructed by an opponent in a 1v1 duel, it should probably take 15-25 seconds to resolve.  It's like everyone playing Rogues back in the days of stunlocks.  Blah, no thanks.

Note this is just FPSs, and mainly those with "modern" mechanics.  I'm ok with Tribes, that has a good enough combat feel to be fun.  TF2 though is too lethal.  I also don't like the map layout memorization of games with 3D environments.

[Echo35]

I read an article once, kind of the same premise where the author was making the argument that modern military games (Mostly shooters) glorify war to the point of making it into perpetual war. How the constant feed back of killing more and more people rewarding you more and more (Multiplayer focus, unlocks, etc) makes war into some persistent, perpetual thing that should be enjoyed and reveled in. It was pretty interesting.

[Hearteater]

Spec Ops: The Line.  I won't spoil it, but it is an interesting game that has relevance to that theme.

[Echo35]

Spec Ops: The Line.  I won't spoil it, but it is an interesting game that has relevance to that theme.

Indeed. I even read the book about it.

[Cyborg]

Oh come on now. Didn't we all grow up on duck hunt, operation wolf, and hogan's alley?

I don't really like shooting games, but humankind has been playing war games since probably forever. This is just the next step: cartoon violence.

Anyway, if they are going to deal with Russia, I hope they also make mention of their own "work camp" crimes against humanity and of course the Caucasus. It's not that Russia/Stalin were the good guys, they just couldn't coexist with another megalomaniac in Germany.

No offense of course. I'm fully aware America has its share of blood on its hands.

[keith.lamothe]

I don't think mock violence is the dominating factor in dehumanization (or at least, in people thinking it's ok to kill other people), at least in the society I live in.  There are other cultures where I see a much deeper immersion into games and a different overall way of looking at the world which could be more susceptible to that kind of thing.  Even in those cases, I don't think the games are driving anything that's not already there.

I think a strategic and/or tactical game exploring the Soviet involvement in WW2 from a moral perspective would be fascinating.  I think it's a dark shade of gray for the most part, but it wasn't solid black either.  Something similar could be said for my own country's involvement in some (less frequent, imo) cases, though I naturally see it in a kinder light even if I'm trying to be objective.

But my guess is that CoH2 is mainly concerned with the warfare, and less with the harder questions.  I could be wrong.  It would be interesting to know if there's any overlap in Relic's CoH2 team and their past Dawn of War teams.  Talk about chilling (yet strangely fascinating) depictions of war and overriding perspectives.

[Wingflier]

I don't think mock violence is the dominating factor in dehumanization (or at least, in people thinking it's ok to kill other people), at least in the society I live in.  There are other cultures where I see a much deeper immersion into games and a different overall way of looking at the world which could be more susceptible to that kind of thing.  Even in those cases, I don't think the games are driving anything that's not already there.

Agreed with you Keith.

It's just like many people in our society who think that teen sex, STDs, and pregnancy result from proper contraceptive sex education (as opposed to abstinence-only education). Yet places all over Europe are much more open about sex, and have better educational programs, and it results in many less pregnancies and STDs. I guess the argument in America is that by teaching kids how to properly have sex using protection, you are somehow promoting it. It's just as silly as the idea that creating a violent video game is the same as influencing someone to go kill people.

I'm not against what Sega is trying to do with the Company of Heroes 2 theme/story. What I'm against is my perception of WHY they're trying to do it. It doesn't seem very genuine to me, it seems like a dishonest marketing ploy.

Also, Hearteater, WHO says you can't be innovative in modern shooters?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-QzM_2pdH1Y