Author Topic: (off-topic) DRM again  (Read 12132 times)

Offline Cyborg

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Re: (off-topic) DRM again
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2011, 02:50:46 pm »
:) Yes, I agree that heavy DRM protection is a pain in the butt, but it's unfortunately the game creator's decision, not ours...

This is how change happens. You identify a problem, discuss it, and submit solutions and ideas. If there is a problem, and you just roll over and lay there "because that's the way it is" or whatever, things will never change. People have a right to complain and point out the clear differences between DRM and not. It's factually incorrect to say that DRM has not caused lost sales, as certain publishers have relented to some degree.

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Offline BobTheJanitor

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Re: (off-topic) DRM again
« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2011, 03:46:32 pm »
It's factually incorrect to say that DRM has not caused lost sales, as certain publishers have relented to some degree.

Exactly that. I have refused, and still refuse, to buy Assassin's Creed (either of them) because of terribly restrictive DRM. So there's a perfect example of DRM causing a lost sale.

And yes, the publisher has the right to put out whatever they want to put out. They can pile on GFWL and Securom and require a CD in the drive and require an always on internet connection and if they see a blip in your internet connection they can force the game to exit and run an automatic uninstaller. This is all technically possible to do.

We as the consumer base reserve the right to refuse to play their intentionally crippled games, and we deserve the right to complain about it. As a lone consumer refusing to buy a game, I can't really effect any change in the system. But if I complain about it every time the subject comes up on forums, I can help change minds and cause more people to refuse to buy these games. That's my tool for changing the system. (Note that I'm not promoting piracy here. The whole point of refusing to buy a game flies out the window if you give up the moral high ground by stealing it.)

And the argument that by buying a game, you waive all rights to complain about the DRM is just nonsensical to me. Each person has to weigh how much they value playing a game versus how much pointless crap they're willing to put up with to play it. Shoddy DRM causing game issues because an internet connection blipped for a few seconds isn't the consumer's fault. They have no say in the matter.

No one at Blizzard is calling up players and asking if they'd like it to work that way. Players put up with it because they have to, because they want the game bad enough that they're willing to ignore it. That doesn't mean they like it, and it absolutely does not mean that they should be expected to like it. The consumer's only choice is to buy the game or not. They may hate the DRM, but they hate the idea of never being able to play the game more. That's fine, that's a personal value judgment that everyone has to make when confronted with this situation. But that doesn't mean that by buying it that they're agreeing that all the DRM on it is great and that they love it. Just that they're grudgingly willing to put up with it. Not remotely the same thing.

Offline Frantz22

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Re: (off-topic) DRM again
« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2011, 03:55:40 pm »
:) Yes, I agree that heavy DRM protection is a pain in the butt, but it's unfortunately the game creator's decision, not ours...

This is how change happens. You identify a problem, discuss it, and submit solutions and ideas. If there is a problem, and you just roll over and lay there "because that's the way it is" or whatever, things will never change. People have a right to complain and point out the clear differences between DRM and not. It's factually incorrect to say that DRM has not caused lost sales, as certain publishers have relented to some degree.



I didn't say that DRM has not caused lost sales. I know that it has (BobTheJanitor, as an example). My point was specifically for Blizzard; they have very high sales numbers even though SC2 has DRM protection. I also didn't say that people don't have a right to complain. Like I mentioned in the post that you quoted, "DRM protection is a pain in the butt..." I'm not "rolling over and laying there" about this problem, but I'm not going to let it affect the games that I enjoy. I like playing games enough to where if I have to go through a little longer of an activation process to play them (or something similar), I will.

Offline Hearteater

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Re: (off-topic) DRM again
« Reply #33 on: June 29, 2011, 04:07:36 pm »
I didn't say that DRM has not caused lost sales. I know that it has (BobTheJanitor, as an example). My point was specifically for Blizzard; they have very high sales numbers even though SC2 has DRM protection. I also didn't say that people don't have a right to complain. Like I mentioned in the post that you quoted, "DRM protection is a pain in the butt..." I'm not "rolling over and laying there" about this problem, but I'm not going to let it affect the games that I enjoy. I like playing games enough to where if I have to go through a little longer of an activation process to play them (or something similar), I will.
Just to mention, I haven't played SC2 since then.  I bought it shortly after release.  I also am strongly against ever buying another Blizzard title because of their DRM and how they tie accounts in to social media and basically require me to share my email address with strangers.  I am not on Facebook for a reason.  So basically Blizzard was able to turn me off to every single future title they make thanks to their DRM.

That being said, and the main point of my first post, is that I have no problem with a company that wants DRM in their software.  They just can't break my computer with it, or mangle my game experience with it.  I am becoming increasingly less tolerate of shitty DRM, not more.  Either game companies will get on the ball, or they'll not get any of my business.  I've already had more fun in AI Wars than I've had with SC2 and I'm on only my second game.

Now this isn't all the game companies' fault.  Our OSes are terribly designed to support our current software model.  I could expound upon this but that'd be going pretty far afield.

Offline Frantz22

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Re: (off-topic) DRM again
« Reply #34 on: June 29, 2011, 04:20:24 pm »
Just to mention, I haven't played SC2 since then.  I bought it shortly after release.  I also am strongly against ever buying another Blizzard title because of their DRM and how they tie accounts in to social media and basically require me to share my email address with strangers.  I am not on Facebook for a reason.  So basically Blizzard was able to turn me off to every single future title they make thanks to their DRM.

SC2 doesn't require you to tie your account with social media. It's merely an option if you're looking to play with friends.

Quote
That being said, and the main point of my first post, is that I have no problem with a company that wants DRM in their software.  They just can't break my computer with it, or mangle my game experience with it.  I am becoming increasingly less tolerate of shitty DRM, not more.  Either game companies will get on the ball, or they'll not get any of my business.  I've already had more fun in AI Wars than I've had with SC2 and I'm on only my second game.

I can respect that!

Offline BobTheJanitor

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Re: (off-topic) DRM again
« Reply #35 on: June 29, 2011, 04:49:04 pm »
I could expound upon this but that'd be going pretty far afield.

What, you mean this topic didn't start out being about the chief exports of Wales? My God, we're on the third page and it's still on topic!

I'll soon put an end to that!

Since you mention the social integration junk in Blizzard's games, let me ramble about that for a bit. I think it's the dumbest idea ever. (Although thus far it has been a light touch, I don't think they're going to give up on it any time soon. Look at the proposed WoW change requiring real names for the forums, and the massive outcry it took to get that stopped. They want this.) Games have perfectly good social structures already. I don't ever need to know that you're John Smith, that you live in Illinois, that you work at a construction job, or whatever. I'm content to know that you're Zog the Barbarian and you have an axe. That's the level of social interaction that games should be on. Sure, you can make some good acquaintances and have some good conversation in games or on game-centered forums. (Like this) And in-game conversations like an MMO with guild chat or an integrated IRC chat (like I hope AI War will get eventually if everyone will go vote up http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=698 :) ) are great. They bring together like minded people to talk about their pastimes. Fine. Games don't need to be closely tied to real life. They're often used as a tool for ignoring real life.

Maybe later generations will see this differently, but this current generation of gamers came of age in a gaming world where they were known by their handle or their avatar's name and it was kept completely separated from their real life. Privacy may not have been the intention of this system, but it was the result of it. That is what we're used to. And the aggravating part is that the game companies that are trying to force this social integration on us aren't doing it for altruistic reasons. As far as I can tell their main interest seems to be getting a tighter hold on your personal information so they can use it for marketing purposes. Ugh!

Offline Cyborg

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Re: (off-topic) DRM again
« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2011, 04:55:21 pm »
As far as I can tell their main interest seems to be getting a tighter hold on your personal information so they can use it for marketing purposes. Ugh!

Right. Today's generation is quite ready to give up all of their personal information on Facebook. Facebook in general is such a narcissistic self-centered application. A whole page about you with all of your crap on it, with everything and everyone you know, where you can click the like button on everything you like, and raise virtual farm animals. I like South Park's interpretation of it. Not surprisingly, businesses want this information for themselves. Obviously, someone like me won't bite on that bait, but I have to put up with it in my games now because a lot of people will.
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Offline BobTheJanitor

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Re: (off-topic) DRM again
« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2011, 05:04:22 pm »
Right. Today's generation is quite ready to give up all of their personal information on Facebook. Facebook in general is such a narcissistic self-centered application. A whole page about you with all of your crap on it, with everything and everyone you know, where you can click the like button on everything you like, and raise virtual farm animals. I like South Park's interpretation of it. Not surprisingly, businesses want this information for themselves. Obviously, someone like me won't bite on that bait, but I have to put up with it in my games now because a lot of people will.

Preach on, brother! (and/or sister, I don't want to presume) I see the younger generation flocking to Facebook in droves, but a lot of crotchety older gamers tend to look on it rather warily at best. I think a large part of it is what I mentioned before. We like the anonymity and don't see any reason to give it up. A friend of mine actually made an FB page for me, and then gave it to me, because I refused to use it for so long. And now I'm all linked up with every relative that I never see and every random person that I didn't like back in high school. Hooray. I almost never use the page, but it's still there, with my name on it. I'm fine with posting on a forum, under an alias, and letting any random person on the wide internet read it. Yet conversely I'm not fine with posting something under my real name and letting a bunch of people I'm vaguely socially connected to read it on Facebook.

And no, game, I don't want you to post on Facebook when I get an achievement. No, I don't want you to tweet about it. Let me continue to hide in my own little social circle and family group. I'm happy with that. I'm just as anti-social as I want to be.

Offline Cyborg

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Re: (off-topic) DRM again
« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2011, 05:14:11 pm »
I am hoping that today's generation will realize how uncool it is.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/05/14/facebook_trust_dumb/

When the founder is reported to be calling his own users dumb f***s   ( that's the actual word used)...maybe everyone should get a clue.
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Offline Frantz22

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Re: (off-topic) DRM again
« Reply #39 on: June 29, 2011, 05:25:46 pm »
I don't ever need to know that you're John Smith, that you live in Illinois, that you work at a construction job, or whatever.

But we all know now that you're Bob the Janitor! Haha, only kidding.

Offline Nalgas

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Re: (off-topic) DRM again
« Reply #40 on: June 29, 2011, 05:53:13 pm »
Man, I take a day or two off from my usual stalking of the forums here, and you guys manage to say everything I was going to say for me while I was gone anyway.  Blah blah blah, overly intrusive DRM sucks, blah blah blah, it's their decision to use it and I can just avoid it by not buying/playing those particular games but miss out on some good games as a result, blah blah blah, social network integration can eat a dick, blah blah Facebook, blah blah privacy.  Blah.  Heh.

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: (off-topic) DRM again
« Reply #41 on: June 29, 2011, 06:18:54 pm »
Not that I trust Facebook with my life, but Facebook has brought me in touch with my relatives and family members more often because many of them just never check their email.  (Due to lack of tech know-how) It also made a few of them receptive to gaming.  Say what you will about Farmville, but at the very least they can appreciate gaming more because of Farmville.  (I do not play Farmville).  So its not all bad you negative people :P  Or maybe I'm the exception as our family and extended family gets along well.  I'm not sure =\

On Blizzard's Social networking, it is way too limited to be of any real use.  Plus, real names = no-go in a gaming environment.  Actually, Eve Online's "social networking" AKA EveGate is my ideal social networking in-game if companies were going to add any at all.  Avatars and usernames only, none of your personal information.  (At least, none more than you gave the company in your account to get a subscription).  With email, calendar and that sort of thing I'm ok with it.  But really, this is only going to work in an MMO.  Even in competitive games like Team Fortress 2 or Starcraft 2, I don't really see the point of it.  If I'm going to pass off my contact information, I'll give a person my steam account name.  (Not that its hard to figure out :P)

Btw, Facebook's CEO is not the only idiot to spew something like that, Activision's CEO also believes his customers are idiots and tools to just soak the $$ out of. 

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Offline Nalgas

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Re: (off-topic) DRM again
« Reply #42 on: June 29, 2011, 07:20:52 pm »
Activision's CEO also believes his customers are idiots and tools to just soak the $$ out of.

No kidding.  Him being allowed to speak in public is probably 50% of their PR problem all by itself, thanks to the crap like that he says...