FTL: A space based roguelike

[Hearteater]

And here my first victory on Normal used no boarding at all, Kestrel A, and my missile weapon was the starting Artemis launcher.

[keith.lamothe]

Maybe the mothership rolled a 1.

[Hearteater]

Nope.  Drones .  Anti-Ship II and Beam I.

[keith.lamothe]

That'll do it   Add cloaking device for extra fun.

[Wingflier]

I don't get why people whine that boarding is OP. Boarding is a fight like any other and with some serious risks. If you don't use tactics you'll get murdered fast but quick retreating to the medbay pretty much always gives the defender the edge. Of course that's one reason crystals are so awesome on the offense, lockdown prevents access to the medbay so even the final boss crew goes down easily.

Boarding has risks just like all strategies in the game has risks, nobody is arguing that.  The argument is that it has LESS risk and GREATER reward than the others.

I mean think about!

-Boarding bypasses shields completely.
-It can't miss.
(You've already exceeded the usefulness of missiles and bombs now)
-If it goes wrong you just teleport your guys back.

With just a "brute force" strategy you're relying (to a huge degree) on luck.  I've seen 6 laser shots miss the target on more than one occasion, and missing a lot has either cost massive damage to my ship, or caused me to lose the game.  Sometimes whether or not you can bypass or shut down the shield relies completely on how many times you can hit it.

Boarding crews don't have to worry about this.  IN FACT, boarding crews can make sure you DONT miss by targetting the pilot's room.  Once you kill that, everything you shoot after can hit; so in essence you're increasing the effectiveness of everything else with boarding.  It's really not that expensive:  At the basic level it just takes 2 Mantis Crew Members and a teleportation module.

Finally, and this is the nail in the coffin:  If you successfully win by boarding, you reap a HUGE reward that you wouldn't have otherwise, which often includes augments and weapons, which can definitely mean the difference between victory and defeat.

Can you win without boarding?  Yes, nobody is saying you can't.  However, your victory WILL depend, in large part, on luck - hoping your weapons don't miss at critical times (and that theirs do), where boarding is much safer and less risky, contrary to what seems to be popular belief.

The ONLY disadvantage I can think of regarding boarding is that it spreads out your attention more.  If there were no pause feature in the game, it would probably be balanced for that reason alone

[Mánagarmr]

I find the huge risk of killing your crew inadvertently or the risk of them being stuck on the ship as it warps off is a valid drawback. It PERMANENTLY gets rid of your "weapons", so to speak.

[chemical_art]

I don't get why people whine that boarding is OP. Boarding is a fight like any other and with some serious risks. If you don't use tactics you'll get murdered fast but quick retreating to the medbay pretty much always gives the defender the edge. Of course that's one reason crystals are so awesome on the offense, lockdown prevents access to the medbay so even the final boss crew goes down easily.

Boarding has risks just like all strategies in the game has risks, nobody is arguing that.  The argument is that it has LESS risk and GREATER reward than the others.

I mean think about!

-Boarding bypasses shields completely.
-It can't miss.
(You've already exceeded the usefulness of missiles and bombs now)
-If it goes wrong you just teleport your guys back.

With just a "brute force" strategy you're relying (to a huge degree) on luck.  I've seen 6 laser shots miss the target on more than one occasion, and missing a lot has either cost massive damage to my ship, or caused me to lose the game.  Sometimes whether or not you can bypass or shut down the shield relies completely on how many times you can hit it.

Boarding crews don't have to worry about this.  IN FACT, boarding crews can make sure you DONT miss by targetting the pilot's room.  Once you kill that, everything you shoot after can hit; so in essence you're increasing the effectiveness of everything else with boarding.  It's really not that expensive:  At the basic level it just takes 2 Mantis Crew Members and a teleportation module.

Finally, and this is the nail in the coffin:  If you successfully win by boarding, you reap a HUGE reward that you wouldn't have otherwise, which often includes augments and weapons, which can definitely mean the difference between victory and defeat.

Can you win without boarding?  Yes, nobody is saying you can't.  However, your victory WILL depend, in large part, on luck - hoping your weapons don't miss at critical times (and that theirs do), where boarding is much safer and less risky, contrary to what seems to be popular belief.

The ONLY disadvantage I can think of regarding boarding is that it spreads out your attention more.  If there were no pause feature in the game, it would probably be balanced for that reason alone

Yet if a boarding goes bad for any reason, you lose at least 40 scrap, more like 80+ scrap.

Aside from the dedicated teleporter ships, you can't get more then 2 people teleporting at a time reliably. That will allow enough time to disable the pilot drive if you want, but that won't disable shields nor weapons, so your weapons will still have to penetrate the shields, and it takes at least ~12 seconds to start hitting the pilot drive to damage it so that's certainly enough to have to take one full salvo from the enemy.. You might hit 100% of the time, but you've devote 200+ scrap in a weapon system (do teleports cost 150? Maybe they are 75. But 2 mantis are 45 each so that's 90 scrap alone so you are paying at least 165 scrap AND you can't rely on it happening.)

Both shields and weapons sometimes have 4 room slots, and if so you are in a finicky situation in later game when you're 2 boarders get hit by 4 of the enemy crew. if the enemy lobs a missile that hits your teleport room, there goes 90 scrap down the drain for your 2 mantis crew. Even if you teleport your 2 people in and out, suddenly you are getting a system that is taking 30 seconds or more to disable a single system, which is much more reliably done by a 12 scrap missile barrage as opposed to your 165 scrap teleport system...and missiles can't go wrong on their second barrage their first barrage is on the pilot drive.

So to conclude from these facts alone, the optimal mantis party + teleport system requires a very focused and somewhat lucky game to acquire in the first place in raw scrap, and if anything goes wrong you lose far more scrap then from other systems. Launching your crew in any solar flare or asteroid system or a ship with cloaking or with a anti-boarding drone or with missile system or with their own boarding crew or enabled pilot drive can lead to a very costly failure.


Use a dedicated teleport ship, you might say? Late game having 4 teleporters alleviate a lot of problems, but what is not mentioned is the difficult early game. You get no weapons with a boarding ship, so Zolten ships are a no go, ai ships are almost a no go (you can wait for boarding drone in the mantis to very eventually acquire victory, but the crystal is a no go), and any missile barrage that hits your teleport room makes boarding a match of sudden death. If you overcome these facts through sector 3 you typically are in the clear, but that's with around a 15% percent chance of success ...and you still have to deal with cloaking and asteroids.

[Wingflier]

I find the huge risk of killing your crew inadvertently or the risk of them being stuck on the ship as it warps off is a valid drawback. It PERMANENTLY gets rid of your "weapons", so to speak.

No it doesn't.  Think about it:  The Kestrel B starts with a Mantis and 3 other crew members.  With 3 crew members, you can easily operate a ship.

If you pick up another Mantis along your journey (not hard to do if you visit Mantis space), you simply pay the 75 for the teleporter, and now you have a powerful new "weapon".

Even IF you somehow mess up because A) You weren't paying attention or B) Your teleporter gets damaged at a bad time, this method of attack will have MORE than paid for itself in the end, with all the extra scrap, fuel, missiles, and weapons you'll pick up by using it along the way.  So you're still really not losing much of anything. 

If you go a COMPLETE boarding strategy, and focus entirely on that, then lose your entire boarding crew - well yea, you're screwed.  But that's no different than any other strategy.  If you have 4 weapons on your ship and your weapons room goes into the red during the final boss fight, you're in some serious sh*t. 

[Wingflier]

Aside from the dedicated teleporter ships, you can't get more then 2 people teleporting at a time reliably.

You don't need more than 2 in most cases.  Anything more than that gets a little dangerous and is mostly unnecessary with proper use of weapons (Firebombs are a good help).

That will allow enough time to disable the pilot if you want, but that won't disable shields nor weapons, so your weapons will still have to penetrate the shields, and it takes at least ~12 seconds to start hitting the pilot drive to damage it so that's certainly enough to have to take one full salvo from the enemy..

Umm, you would have had to penetrate the shields and weapons anyway, what's the difference?

You might hit 100% of the time, but you've devote 200+ scrap in a weapon system (do teleports cost 150? Maybe they are 75. But 2 mantis are 45 each so that's 90 scrap alone so you are paying at least 165 scrap AND you can't rely on it happening.)

It's 75 scrap, and I wouldn't do it unless I had 2 Mantis on my ship (not hard to get).  You're paying 75 scrap (maybe 100 if you add the power) to a strategy which will MUCH MORE than pay for itself in the end, even if you do lose your 2 Mantii.

The rest of your argument seems based on those points so I don't feel I need to address it.  If you don't get the extra Mantis (you start with 1 on Kestrel B), or have the 75 scrap for a teleporter (you'd have to be really poor), then you simply don't go for a teleport strategy.  It's a win/win situation.

[chemical_art]

Aside from the dedicated teleporter ships, you can't get more then 2 people teleporting at a time reliably.

You don't need more than 2 in most cases.  Anything more than that gets a little dangerous and is mostly unnecessary with proper use of weapons (Firebombs are a good help).

Unless you have a crystal crew, you can't reliably hit the shields and weapons with only 2 crew since the enemy ship will mob your mantis crew. Early game sure, but late game you can't. 2 mantis boarders < 4 enemy crew. If you say "you got to use weapons too". You are devoting well over 250 points to one single strategy. If I devoted 250 points toward weapons, I could pop the flagship with no crew

That will allow enough time to disable the pilot if you want, but that won't disable shields nor weapons, so your weapons will still have to penetrate the shields, and it takes at least ~12 seconds to start hitting the pilot drive to damage it so that's certainly enough to have to take one full salvo from the enemy..

Umm, you would have had to penetrate the shields and weapons anyway, what's the difference?

Not if you used missiles . Or devote that 165 scrap for an upgraded weapon system which pierce the shields outright...and if that fails the first volley? Launch another volley. In contrast, a failed boarding party at best makes it useless for 15 seconds, and at worst loses you the equivalent of an augment or weapon system.

You might hit 100% of the time, but you've devote 200+ scrap in a weapon system (do teleports cost 150? Maybe they are 75. But 2 mantis are 45 each so that's 90 scrap alone so you are paying at least 165 scrap AND you can't rely on it happening.)

It's 75 scrap, and I wouldn't do it unless I had 2 Mantis on my ship (not hard to get).  You're paying 75 scrap (maybe 100 if you add the power) to a strategy which will MUCH MORE than pay for itself in the end, even if you do lose your 2 Mantii.

The rest of your argument seems based on those points so I don't feel I need to address it.  If you don't get the extra Mantis (you start with 1 on Kestrel B), or have the 75 scrap for a teleporter (you'd have to be really poor), then you simply don't go for a teleport strategy.  It's a win/win situation.

But the teleport strategy is almost all or nothing. If you get the teleporter but no mantis crew, you've thrown 75 scrap down the drain. Every mantis member you get that's without a teleporter is worst then every other race of crew unless you are under boarding attack from the enemy. You are gimping yourself up to the point you get everything, and in a game such as this where you can't save, it makes much more of an impact then it otherwise would. The 165 cost from start to finish is worth more then a full extra weapon, drone, shield or 2 for any of them. It's a significant investment that can easily be lost.

Keep in mind as well that you can't get the scrap to get the huge investment unless you already can hurt the enemy to blow them up, so its even more high risk.

No one sings the songs of "If i had my teleporter, I could have won! Instead I had these mantis that couldn't repair anything!" or "I was saving to get a boarding crew, but I couldn't hit the enemy with my dinky weapons!"  At least not in the volume of the amazing mantis boarding crew. Yet the formers is % wise much more common then the later. 

[keith.lamothe]

Boarding crews don't have to worry about this.  IN FACT, boarding crews can make sure you DONT miss by targetting the pilot's room.  Once you kill that, everything you shoot after can hit

Taking the pilot room down to red can take a fairly substantial amount of time, and basically not happen if there's an unsuppressed enemy medbay and 4+ enemy crew.  In theory as long you're in the room it should be setting the enemy's evade chance to zero since the pilot can't pilot... but either AI ships put early points into pilot room (auto-pilot) or something else is going on, because they keep dodging when I try that.  I still usually hit the pilot room first because it's generally the most reliable way for 2 mantis to catch 1 enemy in a 2-square room.

And I've actually seen an enemy ship with a red pilot room dodge many shots.  Not as many, but more than you'd think.

And the risk of losing a crew member is more than just 45 scrap per mantis, it's that plus how long it takes to find an opportunity to hire/find one.

Further, the 165-scrap initial investment (75 for tele, 45*2 for 2 mantis) is not really sufficient for serious boarding: 2 mantis can do it, but in stickier situations (which abound in the mid/late game) you need either more troops (more scrap, and tricky to deliver/retreat efficiently without an upgraded tele, which is yet more scrap) or higher melee-experience-levels on your mantis.  Which increases the risk if one or both are lost.

I do think boarding is slightly more powerful than it should be given the risks; I think maybe reducing crew damage output (against any target) by 10% or so wouldn't be a bad move.

But I don't think it's all that far off from where it should be.

[Mánagarmr]

But I don't think it's all that far off from where it should be.

This is what I think as well.

[Wingflier]

Agreed it's not all that bad. The game seems remarkably well balanced. I would make the argument that if you removed the bonuses for taking a ship without it's crew it would be fair. That just kills it for me.

YES,  it's realistic, but it's not that realistic. In my last game I had a full hp enemy cruiser in my possession, with MORE than even enough crew to pilot both ships, and I didn't take it with me why?

[Wingflier]

OH, forgot to mention:  VERY OFTEN, new crew members as well.  Can't put a price on that.

[keith.lamothe]

I started off my last easy game pretty normally, saving up for the tele, got to the first store, and sure enough the tele was on offer.

But there was also an Ion Blast II.

A fateful moment.

You see, as an Engi-A I already had an Ion Blast II.  The thing only does one point of ion damage, but its base cooldown is 4 seconds.  That's really fast.  Even faster with someone manning weapons.  And with a max-skill weapons guy manning it, it gets kinda ridiculous.

So I didn't buy the tele, I built "Ridiculous"x2.

And as it turned out over the next few sectors, was able to buy two of the Automated Reloader augmentations (yes, they stack).

I didn't actually time the interval between the ion blast shots, but it was pretty short.  Basically I'd batter the shields into disabled pulp in about 3-10 seconds depending on how much shield strength, and then the ions would punch through and scramble the weapons before they even charged for the first time.  Then I tended to put one ion on the shield generator and one ion on the engines to make sure it stopped evading and couldn't jump out, and rotated around to keep the thing toothless as necessary.

Somewhere in sector 5 or so I finally bought a tele, and it was a good thing because I'd really run down my drone stockpile having to use an anti-ship-I drone to actually kill anything, and the teleporter let me end fights without having to use drone parts (and increased my salvage, of course).

Never got any mantis (had an opportunity to buy them right after I bought 2 rockmen), but had 3 rock guys and a human, all with max-melee-skill before too long (I exploited one self-repairing autodrone to train up a couple of the rockmen, and exploited its drones to train up my shield, engine, and pilot guys).

Then hilarity struck again and I was able to buy a halberd beam.  First real use of a beam for me; those auto-drone ships died fast when I charged that thing up (though I had to drop an ion out of the circuit first).

In the second to last sector I actually bought a small bomb (2 personnel damage, 2 system damage, no hull damage) to replace the halberd beam because it gave me more ability to render a target helpless.  And I had enough drone parts to not worry about what few auto-drones might be left that I'd have to drone-kill.  And I could run the bomb and both ions at once.


(mothership spoilers below)


The first mothership stage wasn't too much of a challenge.  The second was a bit tough and I was not pleased when the mothership's "power surge" caused it to throw like 8 attack drones at me that worked fine despite the fact that the mothership's drone room was red and heavily ion'd.  Not pleased.  What's the point of these rules, game, if you're just going to use them for toilet paper during the fight that really counts?  Anyway, it went down with my hull only 4 points below max, so no big harm.  Big scare when the early boarding drone pulled a kool-aid man into my ship and nearly killed a number of crew via damage and asphyxiation.

The third mothership stage was the first time I'd seen it but I knew from this thread to expect some kind of superweapon.  I went about my business of dismantling the weapons and ion'ing the shields, etc.  First superweapon burst messed me up pretty good because I didn't know what it would be.  Second one I just triggered my 3-point cloak midway through the power-surge notification.  But it somehow drained that full 3-point cloak in like 2 seconds, forced me out of cloak, and nailed me with the superweapon anyway.  Wasn't too happy about that.  Maybe I left a weapon on or something.  For the third burst I waited for it to actually fire the superweapon, then hit the cloak to bring my evasion up to 100% and that did work.  It got a fourth burst off before my cloak recharged (ow, but someone did warn me about that here), and before a fifth could go off my pair of anti-ship-I drones finished off the mothership.

By then I'd just stopped sending the bombs and boarding parties over because there weren't any more systems I wanted hurt, and I didn't want to kill off the one crew member left lest the AI I was warned about in this thread take over and repair all kinds of stuff   Anyway, that halberd beam might have actually been a better choice in the last stage, I dunno.

Anyway, first win for me   On easy, but I'll take it.  Incidentally, no crew casualties at all.