Enter the Gungeon (Bullet Hell/Rogue-like)

[Wingflier]

And the sad thing is, if they just fixed those couple of things.... to actually give you the damn guns and ammo to use.... it'd be a MASSIVE improvement to the game.

I read that just a few days ago they released a patch to increase the rate of ammo drops, and a lot of people were saying that they're getting way too much of it now. I've had situations where every single room I'm getting an ammo crate and it's just kind of obscene because I barely have time to use my gun before topping it off again.

Wingflier:  I'm curious, how many guns are you typically finding on a particular run, and how far do you typically get?   I'm pretty curious as to just what the game's overall drop rate for guns is here; I mean, really, it just never seems to give any.  And in this game, even having like, 5, 6 guns, really just isn't all that many if you want to actually USE them.   Ammo drop boxes are so freakishly rare that I almost never, ever see any ever.  MOST runs, I never see an ammo box.   If I DO see one, it's always in the store.   MAYBE two times I found one outside of the store.  I figured the world must be ending or something. 

I find at least 1 gun per floor 99% of the time, and then sometimes if I'm lucky I'll find 3-4 guns in a single floor. There have been times where I've had so many freaking weapons I didn't know what to do with them all.

Granted, not all guns are created equal, and the quality of the drops are just as important as the quantity, but overall I'm usually blessed with several decently useful tools, and if I'm lucky it goes way beyond that.

I'm going to do a run right now and just report the results.

Okay first floor. I found a Tommy Gun in a blue chest (pretty powerful weapon, though inefficient on ammo [it's a freaking Tommy Gun]). So that made the first boss fight relatively quick and painless. I'm almost out of ammo at the end of this fight, however since I'm playing Marine I get a call-in which allows me to refill it to max again, so no problem. After the boss fight I was rewarded another gun, the Barrel, which shoots out fish as a weapon. I also found 3 keys on the floor, and bought 2. Since I used 2 on chests, I now have 4 keys and two decent non-starter weapons going into the second floor. I also have a couple decent passive items but you didn't ask about that so I won't go into detail (I have 4 hearts now).

Second floor I found 2 more keys just for playing, bought a 3rd key, then picked up a Hexagun, which as far as I'm concerned is one of the most powerful weapons in the game. After I defeated the Medusa boss (once again with the Tommy Gun ["Mmyah see"]) she dropped 2 more keys, another heart container, and a passive item called Crutch which makes all my bullets homing. Not bad.

So going to the 3rd floor with 2 decent guns, one amazing gun, my pistol, 6 keys, 5 hearts, and 96 of the game's currency.

Obviously, this run is luckier than normal, but not that much luckier. Sometimes I'll have more guns but less keys, or decent activatible items or whatever.

On the third floor I found the Huntsman, which is a pretty decent shotgun that reflects bullets while reloading. Found a couple more passive items. Found an ammo crate about halfway through the floor which I used to reload my submachine gun from the last boss fight. Then I used all my SMG ammo to kill the 3rd boss, and traded my Barrel gun and the Tommy Gun to the muncher for a new weapon. The vendor was also selling a key and an ammo crate, and since I had a lot of money I decided to buy both. I refilled the ammo on my Hexagun.

So I'm going into the 4th floor with 2 decent weapons, a powerful weapon, my pistol, 5 keys, 67 currency and 4 hearts. Granted, I haven't been getting as many weapons as I normally do, but I've been getting a lot of keys and money which essentially translates into weapons as you continue to descend.

On the 4th floor I discovered three ammo crates that dropped on their own, plus a new weapon the "Winchester", which the game claims is 'better than a box of roses'. I died to the 4th level boss, The Kill Pillars, because I had never faced them before (pretty intense!).

But overall, that run wasn't so much different than my normal runs. I might have gotten more guns or less keys but whatever, it turned out pretty well overall.

[Misery]

I'd been thinking about getting in on this discussion. Then suddenly a whole page of walls of text. Alright then!

Why would you expect anything else here?

[crazyroosterman]

I'd been thinking about getting in on this discussion. Then suddenly a whole page of walls of text. Alright then!

Why would you expect anything else here?

at least this thread hasn't been derailed(yet) weve amazingly managed to stay on topic for 6 whole pages.

[Misery]

I'd been thinking about getting in on this discussion. Then suddenly a whole page of walls of text. Alright then!

Why would you expect anything else here?

at least this thread hasn't been derailed(yet) weve amazingly managed to stay on topic for 6 whole pages.

OR HAVE WE?

*ahem*


So, I'm still playing this, I'm determined to bloody well keep at this until it "clicks" with me.  I've had games take longer than this to click and make me even angrier so.... yeah, I'm keeping at it.

Now I will say this:  things start to get more interesting, as I'd hoped, when NPCs start to be unlocked.  These guys are clearly where the "interesting rooms" from Isaac are.  The more of these guys I (very, very slowly) unlock, the more interesting and engaging each floor becomes.  This includes things like shops and buying stuffs... with characters offering me more than JUST "pickup" type items and the occaisional shotgun there's a lot more thought to put into the buying.  Suddenly there's items on offer that might be better than getting a damn key.   Granted, in this process I'm also starting to run into items that generate "curse" but that's fine.   I already read about that mechanic and how it works.   I've seen similar mechanics in other games. 

I've unlocked more weapons too naturally but have only seen so many of those.

Ammo boxes are still nearly non-existent.   The concept of excess keys is still a fantasy.  But some of these things I can buy now make up for that a bit (but it still doesn't really excuse it).  I have found a passive item that causes ammo boxes to have a chance of appearing on kills, but I'm not really counting that in my complaints since, obviously, if I have to rely on such an item in a run to get any ammo boxes at all, it doesn't really count.

As it is, I went through down to floor 5 on the last run I did (mighta gone further if I could have stopped waddling idiotically into EVERY DAMN HOLE EVER, ugh... it's like walking into NT's damn flame turret traps all over again).   Never saw one ammo box appear.  Even in the shop.  AT ALL.  I did have some interesting weaponry that time but much of it came from buying stuff (and two guns generated curse when purchased), and one from the chomper, and once I ran out with a gun, that was the end of it (thus, fortunately the chomper appeared, so got lucky there).  Though as I was using the soldier guy (and didn't find any super important active items to replace his with) I was able to generate exactly one ammo box.  Used it on the barrel weapon that fires fish, which turned out to be pretty good.

Also, I set myself on fire like 3 times with a big blue ant gun.   This is kinda par for the course for me when it comes to dangerous weapons (NT's damn explosives, for example... ugh, so many embarrasing moments with those).  Okay that bit isn't actually at all important but it's entertaining so I mentioned it anyway.  On the plus side, other things were also on fire.

[crazyroosterman]

I'd been thinking about getting in on this discussion. Then suddenly a whole page of walls of text. Alright then!

Why would you expect anything else here?

at least this thread hasn't been derailed(yet) weve amazingly managed to stay on topic for 6 whole pages.

OR HAVE WE?

*ahem*


So, I'm still playing this, I'm determined to bloody well keep at this until it "clicks" with me.  I've had games take longer than this to click and make me even angrier so.... yeah, I'm keeping at it.

Now I will say this:  things start to get more interesting, as I'd hoped, when NPCs start to be unlocked.  These guys are clearly where the "interesting rooms" from Isaac are.  The more of these guys I (very, very slowly) unlock, the more interesting and engaging each floor becomes.  This includes things like shops and buying stuffs... with characters offering me more than JUST "pickup" type items and the occaisional shotgun there's a lot more thought to put into the buying.  Suddenly there's items on offer that might be better than getting a damn key.   Granted, in this process I'm also starting to run into items that generate "curse" but that's fine.   I already read about that mechanic and how it works.   I've seen similar mechanics in other games. 

I've unlocked more weapons too naturally but have only seen so many of those.

Ammo boxes are still nearly non-existent.   The concept of excess keys is still a fantasy.  But some of these things I can buy now make up for that a bit (but it still doesn't really excuse it).  I have found a passive item that causes ammo boxes to have a chance of appearing on kills, but I'm not really counting that in my complaints since, obviously, if I have to rely on such an item in a run to get any ammo boxes at all, it doesn't really count.

As it is, I went through down to floor 5 on the last run I did (mighta gone further if I could have stopped waddling idiotically into EVERY DAMN HOLE EVER, ugh... it's like walking into NT's damn flame turret traps all over again).   Never saw one ammo box appear.  Even in the shop.  AT ALL.  I did have some interesting weaponry that time but much of it came from buying stuff (and two guns generated curse when purchased), and one from the chomper, and once I ran out with a gun, that was the end of it (thus, fortunately the chomper appeared, so got lucky there).  Though as I was using the soldier guy (and didn't find any super important active items to replace his with) I was able to generate exactly one ammo box.  Used it on the barrel weapon that fires fish, which turned out to be pretty good.

Also, I set myself on fire like 3 times with a big blue ant gun.   This is kinda par for the course for me when it comes to dangerous weapons (NT's damn explosives, for example... ugh, so many embarrasing moments with those).  Okay that bit isn't actually at all important but it's entertaining so I mentioned it anyway.  On the plus side, other things were also on fire.

yea the friendly fire in nuclear throne(I know its for you and not for your non existent friends but you know what I mean) surprised me quite a bit particularly when I killed my self with a disk when I was at full health.

[Wingflier]

yea the friendly fire in nuclear throne(I know its for you and not for your non existent friends but you know what I mean) surprised me quite a bit particularly when I killed my self with a disk when I was at full health.

Ah yes, you must have missed that part of our spirited discussion. In NT, never pick up anything that starts with the word "Disc". Not only is the damage subpar, the projectile painfully slow, and the ammunition easily depleted, but it has a high tendency of killing you outright, especially if the screen is full of 'em,

[crazyroosterman]

yea the friendly fire in nuclear throne(I know its for you and not for your non existent friends but you know what I mean) surprised me quite a bit particularly when I killed my self with a disk when I was at full health.

Ah yes, you must have missed that part of our spirited discussion. In NT, never pick up anything that starts with the word "Disc". Not only is the damage subpar, the projectile painfully slow, and the ammunition easily depleted, but it has a high tendency of killing you outright, especially if the screen is full of 'em,

he I don't remember the disk being shit on btw at the time I didn't know friendly fire was a thing and although I usually find projectile bouncing to be completely redundant when I find it in games this one surprised me by making me actually care about it so I figured the disk launcher might be awesome but well......yea
also id like to ask if the flak cannons as crappy as it feels in the last run I got and it felt really piss weak I took it because I thought it would be really useful in the geometry of the frozen mountains but I well......died so I never really got to test that theory out properly.

[Wingflier]

The Flak Cannon is actually pretty good, especially in closed areas. It's better against big units, if you can hit them with the initial shot it's usually pretty deadly. Unfortunately it's not as strong against the little things because of ammo consumption and long reload times. Which makes it overshadowed by better "heavy" weapons for killing big units and better light weapons for killing small enemies. The Super Flak Cannon is definitely a better representation of what the weapon can do. Unfortunately, the ammo consumption is massive and regardless of what Misery says, certain weapons use so much ammo that keeping them is unsustainable. The Super Plasma Cannon for example gets what, 2 shots before you have to refill it? I think Fish's ultra mutation might be the only thing to make that viable in the long term.

[crazyroosterman]

The Flak Cannon is actually pretty good, especially in closed areas. It's better against big units, if you can hit them with the initial shot it's usually pretty deadly. Unfortunately it's not as strong against the little things because of ammo consumption and long reload times. Which makes it overshadowed by better "heavy" weapons for killing big units and better light weapons for killing small enemies. The Super Flak Cannon is definitely a better representation of what the weapon can do. Unfortunately, the ammo consumption is massive and regardless of what Misery says, certain weapons use so much ammo that keeping them is unsustainable. The Super Plasma Cannon for example gets what, 2 shots before you have to refill it? I think Fish's ultra mutation might be the only thing to make that viable in the long term.

1 alright then ill keep an open mind on that weapon and 2 I'm honestly really like ing the fact that theres ammo to be be collected in pretty much every stage that and the fact the ammo chests let me pick exactly what ammo they give me.

[Misery]

I seriously don't have ammo problems with the huge weapons.

I do grab the super plasma cannon pretty much any time it shows up;  it does it's job well.  It's not MEANT to be fired often.  If you fire it, and it DOESNT kill half of the level, you've fired it wrong.  You need to be careful of where you fire it though.  It shouldn't be used much in a more cramped area like the sewers, unless you're firing it at Ballmum.  Useless in the labs... the boss that appears there on loop isn't hard enough to really warrant it's use and the Labs are cramped otherwise.  Best to save it for the Palace.

That's the thing about heavy weapons though; they tend to be capable of killing so many things with one shot (or doing a ton of damage to a boss) that when used right, they more than make up for their ammo cost.  For the plasma cannon, for instance, you can do HUGE damage to a full room.  Using an earlier room-clearer like the laser minigun though, while that really is very effective when used right and can certainly clear a huge area, you typically have to dump *all* of your ammo into it.  It only uses one ammo per individual laser, but it adds up fast.  It's a heavy weapon in it's own right.

The super flak cannon... honestly I've barely seen that one.  Plasma cannon, yes.  But that one, not so much.  I know the game theoretically has the same chance of producing any gun that's available for that level range, there's no rarities or anything, but still, I've barely seen that weapon.

Normal flak cannon, sure.  It works out well enough but it depends on how you use it.   It can be better with Shotgun Shoulders (makes it good in more confined areas particularly when those areas have a whole bunch of little guys in it) so it does have good usage against smaller foes (I just fire it at whatever, I tend not to be picky about targets).  One of those weapons that really takes some practice but it does well enough.  Though for heavier shell-based weapons I prefer something like the Heavy Slugger (now that thing is satisfying to fire) or the Wave Gun.


Anyway the best advice I can give anyone for weapons in nuclear throne is no matter how funky they might be at first, grab it, and just keep using it anyway.   Experimenting a ton with all the guns in the game is very important.  There's very few genuinely bad ones.

[Wingflier]

Misery is right, Shotgun Shoulders increases the effectiveness of the weapon significantly.

The way I usually play is to take one reliable weapon and one frontloaded weapon. Reliable weapons are the type that kill small things en masse but can also be used to finish off heavier things in a pinch. Pretty much any melee weapon qualifies, various shotguns, assault rifle, heavy assault rifle, heavy pistol, lightning rifle and shotgun, most of the hyper guns are fine as well if you're careful.

Frontloaded heavy weapons are like the bazooka, super bazooka, gatling bazooka, heavy crossbow, heavy grenade launcher, cluster launcher, heavy slugger etc.

The problem with the in-between weapons that can kill both big and small enemies effectively (like the Plasma Cannon, Flak Cannon, Energy Hammer etc.) is that they're so ammo consuming that you're liable to run out and then have a useless weapon for awhile. In an IDEAL scenario you can clear out half a level with a couple shots but relying on that can also backfire as well. Many levels do not have a huge, open area where all the enemies spawn and can be taken care of simultaneously. Many levels are long, winding, with a lot of narrow corridors and enclosed spaces. It all just depends on chance. Even if you fire your 'room clear' weapon into an open space, most of them don't "explode" until they hit an extremely heavy unit or a wall, and so there's a lot of luck involved in the execution of this plan as well. In addition, once you start hitting the loops, police start spawning like mad so that clearing half the level can actually be harmful in that the police and monsters often kill each other and you'll be out of ammo when they arrive. There's also the fact that whether you ever get ammo for the gun again is heavily based on a coin toss...

Which isn't to say that you can't use these extremely ammo consuming in-between weapons, but you better have an extremely ammo efficient alternative or be willing to drop the gun and pick up whatever is available when things go South. That's why I generally play it safe.

[Misery]

Best way to deal with the IDPD on loops:  Get the van to spawn, get behind it, fire some very heavy attack at it the moment they pop out of the doors.  Typically flattens every single one of them in one shot.  The more "normal" IDPD spawns aren't even close to as much of a threat, I just ignore them until I get close.

I don't usually worry too much about them overall to be honest (unless there's an Elite Inspector that doesn't die to that first shot).  Most of the time there's much bigger threats.  Particularly if the area boss is around.  If a newer player wants to get used to dealing with the IDPD... use Rogue.  You'll learn fast.

On loops I'll tend to take either super heavy weapons, or hyper-fast weapons most of the time.  Sometimes Ultra weapons as well.  When a loop level starts you want all nearby things dead really freaking fast to give you some space not to die in.

Just... don't hit a Shielder with some ultimate attack or whatever.  That ends about as well as you'd expect.  Well, don't hit them with anything when they're shielding, really... except lasers, bolts, and melee.

[Misery]

Well, another run, another total lack of ammo boxes.  Not even in the shops this time.

Speaking of which, I found something out via the wiki that sorta confirms the problem here:  The actual starting chance of an item appearing on room clear is..... 1%. 

That's it.  1%.   Each room clear brings it up by..... 1%.    Until it finally drops something (most of the time, this seems to be a half heart) at which point it's back to 1%.

.....what dimwit thought THAT was a good idea?  No wonder keys and ammo are bloody impossible to come by.   The chances of ANYTHING appearing are exceedingly slim until you've gone through many rooms, and even then, there's enough items to pick from (hearts, half hearts, blanks, keys, ammo) that the chances get even smaller for the two most important items in the game.    There's an extremely tiny number of passive items that can increase the base chance of items appearing, but for the most part (aside from the hunter, who starts with such an item) you're stuck with the super slim chance most of the time.


That being said, some interesting items found this time.  The Molotov cocktail gun is pretty useful.  The Molotov cocktail gun with homing shots is even more useful.  The garbage can gun or whatever it is is.... interesting.  Reminds me of some of the screwier weapons in NT in that it can do loads of damage but is so bloody strange to use that you really have to know what you're doing with it.  Gas mask let me fire it more often though.

I do wish they had more bosses available though.  Once you get the hang of one, which doesn't take all that long, they feel repetitive since there's only a couple of possible bosses per floor.  Which wouldn't be so bad if they didn't all have 10 squillion HP (NT gets away by having only ONE possible boss each time by having them have very little HP except for the Throne and Ballmum).

[Wingflier]

That's weird man, I'm finding ammo boxes and keys galore usually.

By the way, have you encountered the Kill Pillars? I think it's one of the three 4th floor bosses. I got so wrecked I had to call my insurance company.

[crazyroosterman]

something odd just happened in my latest run I was playing as plant man was beating the snot out of everything with a wrench with a poppy gun just in case I ever really needed to murder something at range and I spawned in 3.2 with half the enemy's already dead with police running around is this meant to happen when you haven't beaten the throne yet like my self?.
ps is there some kind of hidden unlocking mechanic in this game for enemy's at all? because it suspiciously seems to be the case as of late