Author Topic: Endless Space  (Read 36558 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Endless Space
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2012, 08:43:52 pm »
I would disagree that 4x fans can never be satiated though.
If that's in regards to my comment: what I was saying is that 4X games cause a desire in many (not all-4X-fans) gamers that no 4X game (to-date) has fulfilled.

If I had to hazard a guess as to the main reason, it's that meeting that need requires a great deal of complexity, but also an ease-of-use so that mid/late games don't become Player Vs. The-Interface.  Some games deliver on that complexity in spades (Space Empires IV, imo) but late-game it can take an hour to play a turn "effectively" (without leaving a ton of stuff up to highly-sub-optimal automation or doing-nothing).  And some games are a lot simpler and have a relatively easy-to-use interface (SotS1 was like this for me, though I only managed to sustain interest for a couple of full games).

The second reason I can think of would be balance: colony-rush and/or infinite colony sprawl so very frequently being optimal strategies, and the game being effectively over by the chronological-midpoint because of tech advantage and/oror the human being able to game the AI really heavily.

That's not to say it's not fun, it's just "this could be so much better..." to the point that it's kind of a deterrent from sinking much time into the genre for me.
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Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Endless Space
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2012, 09:31:07 pm »
But isn't that truly befuddling? Clearly with so many Indy devs tackling this you'd think one of them makes their dream 4x game, but all i see are comprises and retreads of old concepts. When what this genre needs is IMO and clearly a better idea as to how to tackle the whole concept. Immortal Empires at least *tried* story telling with the immortals where you can ally with one or the other and do missions for em, but this is not fleshed out properly (like so many things in that game)

4x games on LAND kinda suffer the same problems too.

Imo the best 4x game ever could easily be made, the concepts are all there. They just need to be ripped straight out and put together properly and so that they are fun and have a ease-of-use that makes it possible to actually play these games... the real problem is that you essentially need to develop 2 games that have to interlink properly as one game. Recent games showed nicely that 1-system-fits-all does not work right, no matter what you try.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 09:33:17 pm by eRe4s3r »
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Offline BobTheJanitor

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Re: Endless Space
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2012, 09:36:53 pm »
  • Buy this game.

Oh were you recommending this? Because I sure didn't say it.

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Offline Volatar

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Re: Endless Space
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2012, 09:37:09 pm »
I am kind of wondering if taking the whole colonization part of 4X games would help things. Start on an even keel with the opposing empire(s), and restrict colonization to limited border expansion. Only very slowly would scientific expeditions discover viable colonization prospects. I would hope this would shift focus to the diplomacy and strategic warfare aspects. Strongly discourage glassing planets in favor of conquest as well as make each conquest meaningful. Make an interesting, expansive tech tree that promotes a constant arms race by having many desirable unlocks, rather than +10% laser cannon damage #34.

I actually don't like combat abstraction in the early and mid game. I would prefer for each ship to be meaningful during these periods, and would like feedback on my tech, ship loadouts, and other such choices. However, there does need to be a gradual curve of abstraction as the late game looms.

Basically I would like a David Weber novel in game form. But that's just me.

Offline Cyborg

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Re: Endless Space
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2012, 09:44:12 pm »
With a planetcracker, and I'm on board.

I consider X to be a 4X game because it does allow exploration, expansion, exploitation, and extermination. It isn't your typical research tree, it's more mercantile in nature. I think this is an issue of mechanics more than anything. And you have factions. Isn't the deepest? No, but it's damned good at what it does even if it isn't civilization in space.

And I don't think we want civilization in space. There are two parts of the 4X system that keep getting screwed up.

I think that the diplomacy system needs to be renovated across the board. It shouldn't be just a bunch of ass-kissing with resource trading. There needs to be common goals, grudges, and more- and these need to be something to be discovered. There needs to be certain behaviors in the game that attract or repel other civilizations. They need to have a plot where you might not know what it is yet. Crusader Kings 2 is a great example of this. Not every plot is about taking over the world. Maybe the next great 4X game should consider some kind of secondary goals besides "kill everything." It's optional, but not the be-all end-all plot of playing.

The second thing that needs fixing is expansion. There needs to be other ideas for what expansion means besides just "taking more planets." Expansion needs to be about culture as well, technology, trade routes, and not just about how many planets you have. The amount of planets you own should give you some benefit, but controlling trade routes and mercantile shenanigans are just one example of something that should be able to act as a counterweight to massive sprawl. And those shenanigans need to be fun; I don't want to know about some planet that needs titanium delivered. It has to be more than that. It has to involve factions, and there needs to be emergent behavior across actors.

Exploration and extermination has been done very well across many games. I'm not worried about the stuff except to say that if this is going to be turn-based, it needs to be better than rock paper scissors, and needs to be more than just winning battles by blowing up ships. There should be capturable ships, fortresses to invade, planets to invade, and reasons and consequences for doing it. For example, maybe you need some special element of technology that's only held by one of your allies on some planetary fortress, and you have to make a decision about whether the alliance is worth it or the repercussions from that across the galaxy. Who is going to care about that? Would you even succeed at invading the fortress? This is one thing we could have with AI war that we don't right now, and that's the feeling of a deep planetary invasion or planetcracking.

Did I mention I like planet cracking.  8)


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Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Endless Space
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2012, 09:56:42 pm »
Mhhhhhh... in that case we'd be essentially talking about a Spore like approach. You start as 1 planet 1 /custom designed\ explorer ship (and maybe the first localized terraforming and mining attempts). Due to movement issues you'd have to do a sort of mass effect approach to travel though. Maybe by limiting quick travel possibilities to energy output of a civilization and only on very narrow paths (with many other stars relatively close by that can be reached by "standard" travel)

Outside quick travel network colonies would remain small and stagnant hubs of criminals, bounty hunters and grey-businesses  (but there'd be many story possibilities with that.. border worlds and such ,p)

While main-route planets could be developed sufficiently faster and thus unlock the next gate. Obviously similar to Mass Effect there should be a reason for these gates, and it might not have to be a good one.

That way you could balance progression and spread so each empire is about the same size (but with extremely random "side" worlds off the beaten path giving them specialization tech access. Because I find is unrealistic that research would progress differently for other species just like that. The "stone age to space age" transition must be nearly identical for any intelligent species. But in space age, remnants of old death civilizations or rare alien plants/bacteria/species we find at remote locations are likely gonna be far more important. And this could be used to guide empires into directions (randomly, obviously).

3rd Stage would be Empire stage with the central location being the council world (as lame as it sounds) again, lots of story possibility. And 3rd stage is when 1 empire gains supremacy in some way, the game would do a realm divide to unify the galaxy and/or face the plot threat.


Essentially, we'd be talking about at least 3 distinct game stages. A concept no 4x game ever even attempted by the way. And if moddability and scripting is strong enough, side worlds could be seeded with random RPG like missions. And maybe even an "immortal" player avatar so that we can get immersion into the whole thing. We could be playing the first mobile quantum AGI platform in the shape of a human or other shapes we could choose (robot or even animal like body). When money is abundant.. walking around space stations or on locations on planets would be awesome too.

I think for a 4x game to be really successful it has to actually allow you to experience the empire and see how it changes as it grows. Or see what is wrong on a certain colony, talk to people there or experience situations or plots that pop up. There could be done so much with that (Cowboy Bebop and Ghost in the shell united ;P)

Like you say Cyborg, every system in a 4x game needs to be taken at face-value, re-examined, re-tooled. Needs to be immersive, fun and interesting, but also somewhat complex and easy to *understand* and control.

There also needs to be some way to make these things not all happen in 1 game.

Heck, if we are crazy why not change the "uber-plot-end-game thread" and have at least 3 or 4 different end situations that are vastly different. With different goals.

And imo, race interactions should become more advanced too. There should be options of symbiotic alliances. And these should be emergent situations. So not predictable, but when there and the player likes it, extremely satisfying and deep.

I feel like we are describing like 3 games here. But it can be done. Someone just needs to have the intention to really shake this genre.

And just thinking about it, even the start premise (the *reason* of expansion) could be vastly different, we could even do "dieing homeworld" situations or "safe us please" or the like. Or we could play an empire under an symiotic (good or bad) situation either playing within these boundaries (a sub-empire?) or trying to break free and dominate the other empire...

« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 10:10:00 pm by eRe4s3r »
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Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: Endless Space
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2012, 10:19:15 pm »
The problem with shaking the genre is whether there are enough people interested in said genre to fuel it. I have no idea but I get the impression generally that it isn't a profitable genre to take huge risks in atm...sadly, X4 is in somewhat the same boat that RTS is in. The genre feels pretty dang stale and the only big one right now is Starcraft II.

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Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Endless Space
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2012, 10:31:35 pm »
and the biggest rts is a carbon copy of a decade old game with 0 gameplay changes and literally 0 innovations

At this point I don't really care if it sells well. I just want to play it. ^^

The thing about 4x is that no 4x sci-fi game so far was really good. Some had good ideas, and might even be fun. But they were incredibly niche because they just had complexity (or lack of it). No new fresh ideas at the base level.

Also, no 4x game has a really well done dynamic campaign structure that is anything but a glorified skirmish mode. And the money is still to be made with SP. (Because there is no way more than 100 people even if you sell 400k copies plays 12+ hour games in MP, ever).

Not to mention that large 4x games have the problem of "drop once, never pick it up again" so a clean and lean campaign and progression structure seems absolutely mandatory.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 10:33:56 pm by eRe4s3r »
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Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: Endless Space
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2012, 10:36:29 pm »
and the biggest rts is a carbon copy of a decade old game with 0 gameplay changes and literally 0 innovations

At this point I don't really care if it sells well. I just want to play it. ^^

The thing about 4x is that no 4x sci-fi game so far was really good. Some had good ideas, and might even be fun. But they were incredibly niche because they just had complexity (or lack of it). No new fresh ideas at the base level.

Also, no 4x game has a really well done dynamic campaign structure that is anything but a glorified skirmish mode.

Well, there is a saying don't fix what isn't broken... :P  But I get what your saying, though there was some gameplay changes, I mean as far as unit balance goes so..that's something?  *shrugs*.  Not defending SC2, it can handle itself  ;D

Idk, the one dip into X4 I've had was the Space Empire series thanks to MoonshineFox. Beyond that though, I haven't had a lot of interest in what few games are out there for the genre, especially after the horror story I heard about one game that got released in an alpha state as a full game....nice.  Its probably a combination of complexity and lack of market interest that prevents anyone wanting to risk their time and money on such a project. I don't blame them either.

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Offline Cyborg

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Re: Endless Space
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2012, 10:45:29 pm »
Heck, if we are crazy why not change the "uber-plot-end-game thread" and have at least 3 or 4 different end situations that are vastly different. With different goals.

Right. If you haven't seen Crusader Kings 2 yet, it's the best Paradox game they have made in my honest opinion. It does the most excellent job of not giving you a winning condition, only a losing one. Some games I play, I'm trying to unite a kingdom. Other games I'm just experimenting with a crappy Count from who knows where. And someday I actually plan to launch a crusade, but I'm not as good as you need to be to do that yet. My point is, there's not the singular goal of take over the world. There are many goals you could have. And the game is full of actors with emergent behaviors brought on by randomized factors. Every game is different, every actor has a set of goals, and it is a joy to discover what those are and how to exploit them.
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Offline BobTheJanitor

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Re: Endless Space
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2012, 01:19:38 am »
Well I just sat down to play a few more quick turns of Endless Space about 4 hours ago, and just finally stopped. So it's got to be doing something right. I wish I had enough expertise in 4X to quantify which buttons it is pressing correctly, but my experience is honestly just limited to Civs. For some random reason I never got in to the others. I kept meaning to try SotS. I have played some Sins but it's not really all that much of a 4X... so yeah. Anyway, it's definitely doing some things right.

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Endless Space
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2012, 09:11:14 am »
All said and done I wait till its complete and buy it on release, the game does look incredibly spiffy. Let's hope it has enough substance to sustain more than 1 large game ;p
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Endless Space
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2012, 09:55:42 am »
I might be blind, but why haven't anyone of you mentioned the Space Empires series yet? In my eyes, they are the best 4X games out there. Old as hell, but really good. SE5 with the Balance mod is magic. Too bad it runs like a crippled hippo on modern systems :(


EDIT: Yeah, I was blind. As for Space Empires combat, I just run with auto-resolve tbh. Playing every battle by yourself is agonizingly slow. I set the formations, tactics and let my ships duke it out and they do a decent job as well.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 09:57:26 am by Moonshine Fox »
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: Endless Space
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2012, 10:24:23 am »
I still play MOO2.  By far my favorite X4.  If I had the source to tinker with it, I might not have to take a few months off of work.  I cry every time I hit the special system limit on my starships.

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Endless Space
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2012, 10:41:13 am »
Regardless of old 4X titles, Endless Space had me intrigued the second I saw the trailer. It LOOKS good, and information seems to be intelligently conveyed too, which is a must in a micro-intensive genre such as 4X. Wether it delivers or not is a the question though. I'll keep my eye on it, but I'm not certain that I want to put down any money yet. 4X is, as many have said before, more miss than hit.
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