Author Topic: Endless Space  (Read 33981 times)

Offline BobTheJanitor

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,689
Endless Space
« on: May 06, 2012, 11:07:27 pm »
So Endless Space was (sort of) released a few days back. Actually it's a pre-release alpha that you can get access to right now if you buy it. I figure there are probably at least a few people kicking around here that will like it though. It's very much 4X. Turn based, and all that. Has a unique sort of combat system that's almost entirely cinematic, your input is only to select actions for different phases of combat and then watch them play out automatically. I'm not sure if I entirely like that or not, but it also has an auto resolve option that is, as far as I can tell, pretty standard, the stronger will just kill more of the weaker fleet than the weaker will of theirs.

It also has some sort of crowdsourced development thing going on. I'm not too sure how all that works. So far all I've seen is that you get to vote on which ship design or race symbol you want, and the winner ends up in the game. Cute, but not exactly what I would class as really helping to develop the game. Of course maybe I'm just spoiled by spending too much time with Arcen games.

It is very much an alpha right now though. Oddly, the graphics and UI are exceedingly slick looking. Some of the gameplay balance is off and there are plenty of annoying bugs to go around. Kind of wish they'd prioritized the one over the other. They are working in Unity, so they're running in to a lot of the same old bugs that should be familiar to folks around here. Amusingly, I knew it was Unity not because I read up on the game, but because I tabbed out for a minute and came back to find that my view had shifted down and to the right. A little light went on, because I'd seen that behavior from AI War about a million times. :)

Anyway, the site is here and the game right now is 20 bucks and change, which is actually a little high for me, especially when pre-purchasing access to an alpha for a game I know little about. But everyone who had tried it kept going on about how great it is, and I will admit that it is a whole lot of fun when it's working right and rage inducing bugs aren't keeping you from playing correctly. Definitely one to watch.

Offline Volatar

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,055
  • Patient as a rock
Re: Endless Space
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2012, 09:36:54 pm »
Yep. Definitely have had my eye on this one since I first heard of it. Waiting until release though. Star Ruler kinda burned me on picking up indie 4X's without playing a demo first.

Offline Cyborg

  • Master Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,957
Re: Endless Space
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2012, 10:52:01 pm »
Yep. Definitely have had my eye on this one since I first heard of it. Waiting until release though. Star Ruler kinda burned me on picking up indie 4X's without playing a demo first.

I saw Star Ruler's issues a mile away, and I see one with this game also. Depth. What is it that they do better than sword of the stars? I'm not seeing it besides a smooth graphic interface.
Kahuna strategy guide:
http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,13369.0.html

Suggestions, bugs? Don't be lazy, give back:
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/

Planetcracker. Believe it.

The stigma of hunger. http://wayw.re/Vi12BK

Offline Volatar

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,055
  • Patient as a rock
Re: Endless Space
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2012, 11:23:23 pm »
Yep. Definitely have had my eye on this one since I first heard of it. Waiting until release though. Star Ruler kinda burned me on picking up indie 4X's without playing a demo first.

I saw Star Ruler's issues a mile away, and I see one with this game also. Depth. What is it that they do better than sword of the stars? I'm not seeing it besides a smooth graphic interface.

I hate to derail things, but everyone seems to dislike a different thing in Star Ruler. What issues popped out to you?

Offline BobTheJanitor

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,689
Re: Endless Space
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2012, 10:53:09 am »
What is it that they do better than sword of the stars? I'm not seeing it besides a smooth graphic interface.

At the moment, it seems that smooth graphics are pretty much the most important thing it has to offer. It's odd, but that can go a long way towards making a game enjoyable to play even if it has other issues. It's hard to explain well, but having tried it I know that the glossy finish and the soothing music and the subtle sound effects are really making a lot of the game for me right now. I mean, it still has all the standard 4X-ish things, planets, tech tree, ship design, diplomacy, etc, but the real reason that I find myself one-more-turning it is because it's simply pretty.

Offline eRe4s3r

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,825
Re: Endless Space
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2012, 11:37:58 am »
But is it fun? How much 4x choice do we really have?

Star Ruler (despite me actually having worked on that as artist) just tried too much and I am not a huge fan of Newtonian physics in 4x games (not seen a single game yet where that did not outright suck). It is fun up to that point where you stop playing for "designing stuff" and "maxing out stuff" or blowing up stars (which is awesome) and actually look for the the immersive empire building experience. The AI can actually get extremely OP if you let it and if the random luck gave it the template with a balanced but still focused on attack/defense fleet.

Sots2 is still a broken unoptimized mess (yes, latest patch and all) What sots 2 needs is someone clobbering Mecron into submission so that he finally gets a proper GUI designer and GUI artist. Also Sots 2 is not fun. Everything in Sots2 works against you, even the GUI hides important information. Also it doesn't take itself serious (Kingfisher.. semper-fi modules.... 1st graders could come up with better names!) and this makes it even less like-able for me. The AI is beyond brain-dead. It is blatantly cheating.

SINS is not a 4x game imo. You can hardly call what you create there an empire, everything feels too local. And the AI is brain-dead

GalCiv ... too shallow and arcade.. how to describe. The AI is great but there is really not much for it to mess up, so yeah...

Distant Worlds... can we even call that a game? When developers make features whose sole goal is to make you not play that part of their game.. you gotta wonder.

Sots 1 - With mods, still the defacto best total-war'ish space war empire game. It does deteriorate beyond turn 400 into a grind though. The AI is semi-able. And if you are merely unlucky it can pwn you.

Moo3 - despite negativity, with mods still the most fresh and intelligent 4x game ever made. AI is competent. Ship designs and fleet designs play huge impact. Game never deteriorates into a grind thanks to up-scaling fleets and hands-off combat.

Lost Empire Immortal - Actually a decent Idea... not so good execution (been a while since I played it...)

Armada 2526 - Terrible!

So yeah.. very few good 4x games all around. Some that tried to do new thinks but tried to do too much (Star Ruler, Lost Empire) some that are too shallow (SINS, Galciv) some that are broken beyond repair (Armada 2526) and some that had potential (MOO3 and SOTS2 , SOTS1) but ultimately failed at some important part that soured the experience.

Its pretty telling that I love this genre but have no game I would go back to if I have the urge for 4x. Besides SOTS1 and maybe MOO3 but the only with a "If only someone would do it better" mindset
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 11:39:56 am by eRe4s3r »
Proud member of the Initiative for Bigger Weapons EV. - Bringer of Additive Blended Doom - Vote for Lore, get free cookie

Offline Volatar

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,055
  • Patient as a rock
Re: Endless Space
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2012, 01:32:52 pm »
Man eRe4s3r, I agree with your every word on those games in your list that I have played. I love the 4X genre but man does it seem hard to make a good one.

I have not played Sots1 or Moo3, the only two games you praise. I think I need to remedy that.

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Endless Space
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2012, 01:44:04 pm »
There's something odd about the 4X space genre.  In many gamers it provokes a desire that no existing 4X space game can fill. 
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Dizzard

  • Sr. Member Mark II
  • ****
  • Posts: 380
Re: Endless Space
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2012, 02:17:42 pm »
I heard about this today, I have never played a 4X space game before but I'm interested in trying.

A.I War isn't a 4X space game is it? I'm guessing not...

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Endless Space
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2012, 02:56:05 pm »
I heard about this today, I have never played a 4X space game before but I'm interested in trying.

A.I War isn't a 4X space game is it? I'm guessing not...
AIW has been called a 4X but it's really a misnomer given that Master Of Orion, Civ, and such games were among the original recipients of the term (iirc).
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline orzelek

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,096
Re: Endless Space
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2012, 03:04:25 pm »
Yep. Definitely have had my eye on this one since I first heard of it. Waiting until release though. Star Ruler kinda burned me on picking up indie 4X's without playing a demo first.

I saw Star Ruler's issues a mile away, and I see one with this game also. Depth. What is it that they do better than sword of the stars? I'm not seeing it besides a smooth graphic interface.

I hate to derail things, but everyone seems to dislike a different thing in Star Ruler. What issues popped out to you?

I actually liked it. Even engaged into some coding there. It has for me one main issue - I don't see to much re-playability there. Especially in single player. I simply got bored at some point figuring out how to build largest ship or not get eaten by AI. I simply prefer replaying other games ;)

SotS 2 may get nice once it's finished properly. Altho seeing Endless Space GUI I admit it's very slick and SotS 2 could use some improvements in that area.

I'm looking at Legends of Pegasus currently since it seems to have nice ship design system similar to space empires which I really liked. I'm hoping for at least directional weapons etc.

Offline BobTheJanitor

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,689
Re: Endless Space
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2012, 06:10:33 pm »
A.I War isn't a 4X space game is it? I'm guessing not...

AI War is 4X-ish... sort of. But not really. Like everything Arcen it really can't be easily categorized because it's just too different from all the standards.

Endless Space seems pretty fun to me right now. It definitely has some rough edges, being alpha, but it is at least pretty intuitive and doesn't suffer much that I've noticed from hiding important details in sub sub sub menus. I haven't yet completed a game though, because there's some kind of unity 'fatal error in gc' error (that I believe AI War suffered from many ages ago in the 1.x days) that crops up after 100 or so turns. And the balance really hasn't been done yet, nor are all the races in. But what's there is fun.

Offline Cyborg

  • Master Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,957
Re: Endless Space
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2012, 07:45:19 pm »
What is it that they do better than sword of the stars? I'm not seeing it besides a smooth graphic interface.

At the moment, it seems that smooth graphics are pretty much the most important thing it has to offer.

I haven't yet completed a game though, because there's some kind of unity 'fatal error in gc' error (that I believe AI War suffered from many ages ago in the 1.x days) that crops up after 100 or so turns. And the balance really hasn't been done yet, nor are all the races in. But what's there is fun.

  • You haven't completed a game.
  • All it has right now is good graphics.
  • You can't actually complete a game because it crashes after 100 turns.
  • Buy this game.

WTF?  :D


But yeah, in regards to star ruler, you may as well call it triangle wars because you don't actually get to see gigantic battles like sins. You see a whole lot of triangles except in one view where you have to be extremely close up. The interface is terrible (and what is with that stupid petri dish). You can tell me, it was only the demo, or it wasn't released yet, or it was updated, but my first impression was an unfinished ugly unintuitive mess of a game that still didn't offer anything better than Master of Orion. I think what it did have was the potential to have a gigantic universe, but you may as well play distant worlds for that. It just was not fun.

The other comments that eraser made are accurate. I'm surprised you left out the X series from your 4X review.
Kahuna strategy guide:
http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,13369.0.html

Suggestions, bugs? Don't be lazy, give back:
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/

Planetcracker. Believe it.

The stigma of hunger. http://wayw.re/Vi12BK

Offline Volatar

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,055
  • Patient as a rock
Re: Endless Space
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2012, 08:13:15 pm »

But yeah, in regards to star ruler, you may as well call it triangle wars because you don't actually get to see gigantic battles like sins. You see a whole lot of triangles except in one view where you have to be extremely close up. The interface is terrible (and what is with that stupid petri dish). You can tell me, it was only the demo, or it wasn't released yet, or it was updated, but my first impression was an unfinished ugly unintuitive mess of a game that still didn't offer anything better than Master of Orion. I think what it did have was the potential to have a gigantic universe, but you may as well play distant worlds for that. It just was not fun.

I really liked the concept of fully customization ships and huge battles. In practice there was so little direction to the customization that you had no idea what worked or not (and the triangle effect didn't help you learn). I don't mind Triangle wars if I know what is going on, but I had no idea what was going on in Star Ruler. Then I realized that the ships were using Newtonian physics. Ok, that's kinda cool, except for the part where the AI has no idea how to FIGHT using Newtonian physics. (See the Lost Fleet series by Jack Campbell for how to fight with Newtonian physics (and lightspeed communications and sensors.)) Battles took FOREVER to resolve. I played a coop game with a friend and we had one system that was constantly being fought over for two hours.

Load on top of that the clunky interface and crappy empire control (especially ship production) and the game doesn't get good marks from me.

I'm surprised you left out the X series from your 4X review.

I absolutely ADORE the X series, but I don't get why people classify them as 4X games. They are amazing space sims though. Amazingly immersive given good headphones and a big monitor.

Offline eRe4s3r

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,825
Re: Endless Space
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2012, 08:17:52 pm »
Yeah x games... no research, barebones diplomacy and no ship designer which means it ain't really a 4x game ;p

What I liked about Star Ruler was the ship designer though (all the tech art icons of that are by me so yeah), the idea and concepts behind it are great. Sadly in actual gameplay when it comes down to it, you need like 200 or 300 ships.. at that point it becomes irrelevant how well you designed them as long as they have a shield, armor, engines and guns.. and enough fuel to not die before they reach the enemy. The "no limit" gameplay really doesn't work in games *cough* Distant Worlds *cough* because you can't manage it.

A good 4x game handles solar systems like a normal 4x game handles planets. And uses the MOO3 concept of planet regions (Which is an awesome concept) for everything. So basically, you build mining colonies on planet regions with high minerals but do you really care where exactly that then is?. Combat is abstracted to solar system level and only the central government planet (the "capital" per solar system) has a dedicated battle abstraction (Outer orbit, lower orbit, ground), because let's face it. Taking a mining colony on planet 3 is irrelevant when a hugely developed world has orbital cannons that can shoot at other planets. You need to take and replace the government. That is how, realistically, space conquest would work. Destroying anything beyond the most annoying military installations would be a huge waste. And in best case you even let local government continue and just oversee that from orbit. Obviously the orbital elevators would be the prime focus point. In the end what developed empires would care about are raw materials, food, and skilled people for military or empire duty.

Oh boy, i forgot Space Empires totally ;)

I would kinda say these (the whole series) are good 4x games, where it not for the pain-in-the-backside that is... COMBAT.. urgh. For me, the game stops being fun when I have to fight on equal terms (ie, when I meet a same-strength enemy). I think when a 4X games takes itself seriously you have to absolutely abstract fleets. At best you should order fleets around. You have so many possibilities but reality is.. that you have to camp on the warp-points. Which is what I said above... combat needs to be abstracted to at least solar system level. And a gameplay element should exist that limits movement in certain space regions into (large, but still in some way corridors) so as to allow fortresses that have a point and work like the "zone of denial" in total war games.

There was a japan-only game based on LOGH (Legends of the Galactic Heroes) which did this nearly perfectly. The combat, that is.

I would disagree that 4x fans can never be satiated though. Reality is no sci-fi 4x game so far was the *one* super awesome one that shifted this genre into a golden age. The 4X genre never did have it's quake, doom, halflife or Deus EX equivalent. There is just too little innovation in that genre. And whats really missing is admiral and government systems that feel real. A proper power progression for the player (Why do we start as emperor?). And somehow no 4x game ever got the Immersion right.
Proud member of the Initiative for Bigger Weapons EV. - Bringer of Additive Blended Doom - Vote for Lore, get free cookie

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk