Endless Legend?

[Wingflier]

I know this community is kind of a 4X haven, so I felt this would be a perfect place to ask opinions about Endless Legend, a game I've had my eye on for quite awhile, but which I'm finally considering now that the entire collection is on sale.

http://store.steampowered.com/sub/85250/

I'm a little hesitant just because Endless Space was kind of a disappointment.

For those who have tried it, what are your opinions?

[Draco18s]

Endless Space was kind of a disappointment.

Which pretty much made me ignore the studio.
Unless it somehow turns out to be made of gold, by which I mean mailed me me as a gold bar etched with the full source code, as a USB drive with the installer on it, I'm pretty much going to pass.

[ptarth]

Endless Space - Filled me with so much internet rage. Combat was wrong.
Endless Legend - Like all of their products it looks good, but lacks depth. Too much stuff that doesn't actually matter, little information on relevant mechanics, and the AI is braindead. 

[crazyroosterman]

I've been at half's when it comes to that game for a long time on one hand the playable factions sound really interesting to play but on the other hand I've heard a good deal of confliction from here so ill wait and see what people say hear then make my mind up for good.

[Shrugging Khan]

It's bad. It's really, really bad. It's so bad RPS named it their game of the year, which was a turning point for me as an RPS reader - from there on I knew they really, really didn't play the games they reviewed for any longer than it takes them to find three things to write about. To hell with that. So many people jumped on the bandwagon and hyped the sh!t out of EL, and yet there's just next to nothing good about it.

What I liked:

• The terrain generator did some moderately interesting stuff
• I pirated it and didn't pay a damn cent into amplitude's pockets. F0ck you amplitude, I'll never forgive you for taking my money for ES.

Most other things:

• It's often said that the factions are unique? Only in being severely limited. They essentially divvied up the game's mechanics and gave some of them to each faction, which really just means that what you can, have to and will do is set in stone from the moment you start playing.
• The visuals are very lazily designed. Nothing looks remotely authentic, everything is just meaningless decoration. The geometry of it all has no sense of purpose, creates no atmosphere at all. Same as in ES - recognizable factions, yes, but they all look genuinely stupid.
• Combat is atrociously bad. I shouldn't have expected anything else after ES, but come the fick on! This would've been sub-par thirty years ago, but by now that's not even beta-testing levels of dropped-mid-development. There's not much to think about or do strategically or tactically, and it's not like the nonexistant AI could've handled anything anyways.
• Performance is so bad, so very very bad, and there's no way to turn the settings low enough to make it run well. It's a turn-based game, for fock's sake, what the f?ck is it even doing with all that CPU!?
• Have I mentioned that the AI does not, in any way, bear any resemblance to intelligence? It's approximately as intelligent as a fish on dry land, three weeks after it died, was eaten, digested and excreted. It cannot do anything. Not anything. No thing. Is it even there?
• The interface gets a lot of praise, doesn't it? Well sod that. It does confirm to current fashions, but it really is a chaotic mess with no real advantages over something more traditional - everything's all over the place, the UI's reactions to user input are not at all uniform, it's extremely space-inefficient and conveys important information really, really poorly.
• City-building is, in spite of the seemingly many options, very very linear. There is almost always a mathematically superior choice, and it's really not hard to figure out. Oh, hey, that's actually one thing the AI did well - you won't even have to do it yourself. Same as in ES.
• The tech tree is subdivided into eras, and to reach the next you need to unlock most of the preceding ones. Which, again, makes it a very linear affair.
• Again as in ES, unit-building, city-building, the tech tree and the heroes mostly just come down to simple, straight-up, no-drawbacks numerical bonuses. There really is no thinking to be done about most anything; the majority of the game's content is just trivial, linear upgrading.
• The quests have no pacing, are badly written, respond insufficiently to the actual state of the game world and are frequently impossible to complete because a necessary element is not present in the world.

I could go on, but the first wave of choler has passed and I'll take this opportunity to stop wasting time on what is really, really a steaming pile of horsesh?t.

[Wingflier]

It's interesting that the reviews here have been so different than the average Steam review, which are mostly positive. Then again I see that the Steam reviews for Endless Space are mostly positive as well, and I've heard nothing but bad things about that game from this forum.

[crazyroosterman]

It's bad. It's really, really bad. It's so bad RPS named it their game of the year, which was a turning point for me as an RPS reader - from there on I knew they really, really didn't play the games they reviewed for any longer than it takes them to find three things to write about. To hell with that. So many people jumped on the bandwagon and hyped the sh!t out of EL, and yet there's just next to nothing good about it.

What I liked:

• The terrain generator did some moderately interesting stuff
• I pirated it and didn't pay a damn cent into amplitude's pockets. F0ck you amplitude, I'll never forgive you for taking my money for ES.

Most other things:

• It's often said that the factions are unique? Only in being severely limited. They essentially divvied up the game's mechanics and gave some of them to each faction, which really just means that what you can, have to and will do is set in stone from the moment you start playing.
• The visuals are very lazily designed. Nothing looks remotely authentic, everything is just meaningless decoration. The geometry of it all has no sense of purpose, creates no atmosphere at all. Same as in ES - recognizable factions, yes, but they all look genuinely stupid.
• Combat is atrociously bad. I shouldn't have expected anything else after ES, but come the fick on! This would've been sub-par thirty years ago, but by now that's not even beta-testing levels of dropped-mid-development. There's not much to think about or do strategically or tactically, and it's not like the nonexistant AI could've handled anything anyways.
• Performance is so bad, so very very bad, and there's no way to turn the settings low enough to make it run well. It's a turn-based game, for fock's sake, what the f?ck is it even doing with all that CPU!?
• Have I mentioned that the AI does not, in any way, bear any resemblance to intelligence? It's approximately as intelligent as a fish on dry land, three weeks after it died, was eaten, digested and excreted. It cannot do anything. Not anything. No thing. Is it even there?
• The interface gets a lot of praise, doesn't it? Well sod that. It does confirm to current fashions, but it really is a chaotic mess with no real advantages over something more traditional - everything's all over the place, the UI's reactions to user input are not at all uniform, it's extremely space-inefficient and conveys important information really, really poorly.
• City-building is, in spite of the seemingly many options, very very linear. There is almost always a mathematically superior choice, and it's really not hard to figure out. Oh, hey, that's actually one thing the AI did well - you won't even have to do it yourself. Same as in ES.
• The tech tree is subdivided into eras, and to reach the next you need to unlock most of the preceding ones. Which, again, makes it a very linear affair.
• Again as in ES, unit-building, city-building, the tech tree and the heroes mostly just come down to simple, straight-up, no-drawbacks numerical bonuses. There really is no thinking to be done about most anything; the majority of the game's content is just trivial, linear upgrading.
• The quests have no pacing, are badly written, respond insufficiently to the actual state of the game world and are frequently impossible to complete because a necessary element is not present in the world.

I could go on, but the first wave of choler has passed and I'll take this opportunity to stop wasting time on what is really, really a steaming pile of horsesh?t.

oh my that's pretty damming makes me glad I decided to get age of wonders instead of that game.(although I haven't really done anything age yet its just that I was on the verge of getting it for a while and then decided to go full ham when it went on sale)

[Cyborg]

I liked the game, and I just started playing it again. I also like endless space, though. And dungeon of the endless. The problem is, on this forum, 4x is nearly impossible to get good reviews on because everyone has played so many of them, anything less than the ultimate infinite game just won't do. Endless legend is not an infinite game. If you know how to play 4x games, there's nothing here that's going to confuse you. You can jump right in and start playing. Personally, I like that. I was able to have fun nearly immediately, and I continue to get enjoyment out of it. I enjoy exploring the world, doing quests, and even if it isn't top-of-the-line AI, it's fun.  Frankly, AI is just going to be a problem for nearly every 4X game. It needs to have the ability to be modded, or it will be quickly exploited. Stars beyond reach will have the same problem. AI war already has this problem, but you can compensate for it because there are so many challenging things you can add to the game to make it harder. Some of the reviews for 4X games on this forum can't be relied upon, anyway. There's a natural negative slant on this forum about this particular genre to the point that we can't enjoy the fun parts about games without focusing on the bad.  Shrugging, I don't know who you think you're sticking it to by pirating, but it's not cool. There is no game or situation where I would say that stealing somebody work is cool. Certainly not because you think they do bad work therefore it's okay or something like that.

[Toranth]

It's bad. It's really, really bad. It's so bad RPS named it their game of the year, which was a turning point for me as an RPS reader - from there on I knew they really, really didn't play the games they reviewed for any longer than it takes them to find three things to write about. To hell with that. So many people jumped on the bandwagon and hyped the sh!t out of EL, and yet there's just next to nothing good about it.

So, you're saying I should wait for the bundle?

The problem is, on this forum, 4x is nearly impossible to get good reviews on because everyone has played so many of them, anything less than the ultimate infinite game just won't do.

(...)

Some of the reviews for 4X games on this forum can't be relied upon, anyway. There's a natural negative slant on this forum about this particular genre to the point that we can't enjoy the fun parts about games without focusing on the bad.

While true, it is also true that many of the recent 4x games that have been released have been very low-quality.  Many were very unbalanced, or had poorly thought-out game mechanics.  Some were very buggy, others abandoned incomplete.  Just look at the unfortunate history that led to Fallen Enchantress: Legendary Heroes.  Or the most expensive Civ 5 mod ever: Beyond Earth.  Even on the 'successful' end of the spectrum, you end up with the 'almost but not quite' games, like Worlds of Magic.

Lots of people disliked what Endless Space turned out to be, as opposed to what it was presented as.  Since that's the previous game by this same company, I'd be surprised if people weren't somewhat cautious.  I'm interested in Endless Legend, because I have hopes that they learned from Endless Space.  But once bitten...

[Shrugging Khan]

So, you're saying I should wait for the bundle?

If it happens to be in a bundle that also contains stuff worth getting, sure. Get it accidentally and see for yourself.

Frankly, AI is just going to be a problem for nearly every 4X game. It needs to have the ability to be modded, or it will be quickly exploited. Stars beyond reach will have the same problem. AI war already has this problem, but you can compensate for it because there are so many challenging things you can add to the game to make it harder.

Yes, AI is hard. But still lots of games manage to either make sufficiently good AI, or design their game in a way that lets it work without. EL did neither, and ended up complete unchallenging for it. Yes, you can always just turn up the difficulty and heap bonuses on the enemy, but that doesn't really, in itself, make for a better game. In my time playing EL the AI just sat around and did either nothing at all or nothing that could've ever worked, to the point where completely random behaviour would've probably been better. And that's just a great deal worse than what many 4X have already achieved.

Some of the reviews for 4X games on this forum can't be relied upon, anyway. There's a natural negative slant on this forum about this particular genre to the point that we can't enjoy the fun parts about games without focusing on the bad.  Shrugging, I don't know who you think you're sticking it to by pirating, but it's not cool. There is no game or situation where I would say that stealing somebody work is cool. Certainly not because you think they do bad work therefore it's okay or something like that.

I don't buy games unless they're either dirt cheap (bundles, 90% discounts, freeware) or so good that I really want to support the developer. These days I'm too poor to just buy a game on impulse and see if it works; I did that with ES and the ES expansion and got burned pretty bad, because by Jove I cannot see what you like about that abomination of bad design. And by paying full price for ES, I hope I can somewhat buy myself the right to judge in this case; in your eyes. So yes: it's bad, therefore it's okay for me to not pay for it, because it's not really stealing - in a world with perfectly accurate game reviewers or demos, I could've saved myself the effort and seen right in advance that I'd dislike EL. But lacking that kind of accurate information, and having relied on inaccurate info for ES already, I could've either abstained or made the same mistake again. I did want to give amplitude another chance though, especially in light of all the good reviews. (And in trying to soften the feeling sunk cost.)

If EL had been good, I'd have bought it on a discount by now. If it had been really good, I'd have bought it right after playing it, at a full price. But it was truly horrible sans saving graces, I deleted it and never considered getting it again, saving me some money that I could instead donate to Bay12, spend on more Arcen games, throw at Illwinter or invest in a bundle of bundles.

That's my system that let's my play games on a severely limited budget, while paying those who make good ones.
I think that's effectively better than the alternative.

[Cyborg]

And by paying full price for ES, I hope I can somewhat buy myself the right to judge in this case; in your eyes. So yes: it's bad, therefore it's okay for me to not pay for it, because it's not really stealing - in a world with perfectly accurate game reviewers or demos, I could've saved myself the effort and seen right in advance that I'd dislike EL. But lacking that kind of accurate information, and having relied on inaccurate info for ES already, I could've either abstained or made the same mistake again. I did want to give amplitude another chance though, especially in light of all the good reviews. (And in trying to soften the feeling sunk cost.)

If EL had been good, I'd have bought it on a discount by now. If it had been really good, I'd have bought it right after playing it, at a full price. But it was truly horrible sans saving graces, I deleted it and never considered getting it again, saving me some money that I could instead donate to Bay12, spend on more Arcen games, throw at Illwinter or invest in a bundle of bundles.

That's my system that let's my play games on a severely limited budget, while paying those who make good ones.
I think that's effectively better than the alternative.

No. If you take something that isn't yours, it's stealing. It doesn't matter what mental gymnastics you are doing to rationalize the behavior. The so-called perfect world that would let you know you are getting your money's worth doesn't exist. It's generally agreed-upon that you have to pay for goods and services. If you can't afford it, then you can't have it. That's how it works. I can't have everything I want, either.

It would be one thing if you admitted that it's wrong but it doesn't bother you and you're going to do it anyways. It's another thing to actually claim there's some kind of justice here. I don't really care what you do, I just felt like commenting because of the righteous attitude you had over taking someone else's stuff and then blaming them for it. lol…

[crazyroosterman]

And by paying full price for ES, I hope I can somewhat buy myself the right to judge in this case; in your eyes. So yes: it's bad, therefore it's okay for me to not pay for it, because it's not really stealing - in a world with perfectly accurate game reviewers or demos, I could've saved myself the effort and seen right in advance that I'd dislike EL. But lacking that kind of accurate information, and having relied on inaccurate info for ES already, I could've either abstained or made the same mistake again. I did want to give amplitude another chance though, especially in light of all the good reviews. (And in trying to soften the feeling sunk cost.)

If EL had been good, I'd have bought it on a discount by now. If it had been really good, I'd have bought it right after playing it, at a full price. But it was truly horrible sans saving graces, I deleted it and never considered getting it again, saving me some money that I could instead donate to Bay12, spend on more Arcen games, throw at Illwinter or invest in a bundle of bundles.

That's my system that let's my play games on a severely limited budget, while paying those who make good ones.
I think that's effectively better than the alternative.

No. If you take something that isn't yours, it's stealing. It doesn't matter what mental gymnastics you are doing to rationalize the behavior. The so-called perfect world that would let you know you are getting your money's worth doesn't exist. It's generally agreed-upon that you have to pay for goods and services. If you can't afford it, then you can't have it. That's how it works. I can't have everything I want, either.

It would be one thing if you admitted that it's wrong but it doesn't bother you and you're going to do it anyways. It's another thing to actually claim there's some kind of justice here. I don't really care what you do, I just felt like commenting because of the righteous attitude you had over taking someone else's stuff and then blaming them for it. lol…

I just want to say that I think its morally fine if he was using that as a demo which the game should have had in the first place civ 5 had one (which is what lead to me buying the game in the first place heck I might have bought endless it self a bit ago if it had a demo for me to try) which did its wonderfully although it could have done with being just that bit longer. ps that is providing he's being honest which I'm going to assume he is being since I don't a method of determining otherwise

[Wingflier]

In the end, the moral act is completely subjective anyway, and there's no use trying to force your opinion on someone else. People are going to get what they want to get, which is the biggest reason the "drug war" has been such a miserable failure, despite however many billions of dollars we've sunk into it, nothing has changed.

Besides, people violate their own morality all the time. If they didn't then what would be the use of religion? If there's nothing to ask forgiveness for then you can throw all that out the window, making any talk of morality a bad joke in the first place.

I appreciate SK's honesty.

[Shrugging Khan]

No. If you take something that isn't yours, it's stealing. It doesn't matter what mental gymnastics you are doing to rationalize the behavior. The so-called perfect world that would let you know you are getting your money's worth doesn't exist. It's generally agreed-upon that you have to pay for goods and services.

My mental gymnastics allowed me to put my money where it belonged, while also giving Amplitude a chance to convince me that it belonged to them.

If you can't afford it, then you can't have it. That's how it works. I can't have everything I want, either.

By that logic I'll never play a game again because your generally-agreed-upon method is just really not affordable for me. Which means no games developer will ever make a penny from me again.
So from my point of view it's

• either pirating everything and handing what money I have to those devs who, by my judgement, deserve it the most,
• buying blindly and, in most cases, wrongly - giving me bad games, encouraging bad game development, and depriving good devs of some income
• or not buying or pirating at all, so nobody gets my money and game development is not encouraged at all

It would be one thing if you admitted that it's wrong but it doesn't bother you and you're going to do it anyways. It's another thing to actually claim there's some kind of justice here. I don't really care what you do, I just felt like commenting because of the righteous attitude you had over taking someone else's stuff and then blaming them for it. lol…

I'm sure you can argue that this is somehow not ethically flawless, and illegal besides, but by my own moral compass I'm doing all right by all those involved. And can you really say that I did someone harm? By not giving money to Amplitude, for example? After ES, I only would've done that if EL really had been good. Without piracy, I would've assumed it to be bad by default, and not given them any money.

It may be self-righteous, but I like games and I especially like supporting good games. Call it illegal mental gymnastics; it gets my money to where it belongs.

[Mánagarmr]

[justify]The difference is that you are keeping up playing their games, thus stealing from them. I used to pirate games to see if they were any good, then buy them. These days, I barely see the point in even pirating first as there are several review sites and places to research games prior to buying, not to mention friends. In addition, games are stupidly cheap these days. The age of $60 AAA releases is coming to an end, and only a few companies still desperately try it and fail over and over (Hello EA).[/justify]