Author Topic: Drox Operative  (Read 81336 times)

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Drox Operative
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2012, 08:29:51 pm »
You are right, my issue with command is that it should not be something we choose at level up, it should be the whole of all other stats, the potential and experience, a reward. This is the 1 main reward mechanic, and its not rewarding.

I will post on Soldak but doing some GUI mockups, because I do not like the GUI ,p
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Drox Operative
« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2012, 08:48:07 pm »
You are right, my issue with command is that it should not be something we choose at level up, it should be the whole of all other stats, the potential and experience, a reward. This is the 1 main reward mechanic, and its not rewarding.
Perhaps a different model would be better, but I've been at 11 command (the second upgrade; 4/4/3 light/medium/heavy) ever since part way through the first sector and I've felt a tremendous sense of reward at each step when I managed to squeeze in enough stat points and just the right gear to be able to (for example) drop down from 1 reactor + 1 solar panel (1 heavy + 1 medium) for power-load provision to just the reactor (freeing up the medium slot for a computer, which gave me enough attack so I could hit things reliably without relying on a bunch of +attack stats on my shield module and reactor module that was holding me back from obvious upgrades that had better core stats but without the +attack, and so on).

So I really don't think it's even the main reward mechanic, in practice.  I've just now gotten to the point where I'm saving up points for the next command upgrade (because I've got the thrust to maintain near-max-speed even with 20 more weight, and I'm getting to the point power-wise where I'm feeling the need for 2 reactors at least until I find something better than my +662 power-load Nuclear Reactor V), and when I get that 4th heavy slot that's going to be a very rewarding moment.  Of course, it's going to take two upgrades because the third upgrade just doubles your base structure (which I think could be more attractive, yes), and thus a bit more helm so I can use some of the better thrusters I've stored away, but I'll get there ;)
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Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Drox Operative
« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2012, 09:01:45 pm »
Mhh, you are right again, gonna remove that point from my (future post) in beta feedback forum ,p I did the error to skill that first I guess.

Ok, lol, I give up. Posts are moderator approved, and I didn't see that (actually I've never seen that in a forum until now). So now 3 times the same topic is in the queue, but not showing. Well sod it. I can't wait for ages, i wanted to link it here but it takes too long. So here is the post thats gonna show up eventually at Soldak. but I don't care, I got other things to do now ^^ Like actually playing the game ;P

Quote
First of all this is rather a collection of things from a discussion over here and some other stuff
http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,10939.0.html

If you know me from there, you know you can expect some deeper points on GUI in this topic ;p

Now not going to write too much, just some points. This is not going to be about what I like, because it's a lot. It is about what I think needs some do-over for this to become a great game, as such, it is my personal opinion. It is going to be linked from that topic above as well.

- The game needs quest direction indicators as a RING direction indicator on the minimap (at the very least) because space can be huge, and objectives move. The game is already way too fast paced to "search" randomly for kill missions. Of 12 kill missions I did not reach a single one before it ran into a planet or got killed by something else. (Probably it's me sucking)

- The game also needs a "set quest goal as waypoint" and "set waypoint here" function in the system map, display the way point there, and display quest coals there.

- The minimap needs to be.. better, show more, and be slightly larger.
# Directional outer-ring indicators for quest objectives (Golden) and Waypoints (blue)
# Different zoom levels

- The GUI (and oh boy, this is gonna be a huge point) has peculiar design choices everywhere
# The font is peculiar
# the color choices are particularly peculiar
# The GUI is extremely uninformative on first glance, I also don't like when GUI elements hide information that is vital from you (with my lazy mockup next to it attached the worst offending piece of GUI) I am not a huge fan of splitting armor and hull apart in GUI display of health, . Because it's health. So 50% health would mean all armor is destroyed. These bars are also not random, there are 20 bars for the ability to display 5% increases or decreases, for health 10 bars double as armor display when armor is installed.. Notice that in my mockup you can instantly see you are at full health and bars no longer clip over when they are above a value in relation to other bars. And further note, less strong colors, because the last thing you want in a GUI is R Y B at literally 100% saturation.


And also.. one never ever uses the FULL saturation values of colors in a GUI, NEVER, EVER. Open up the mockup in photoshop if you want to see what color values look pleasing, and for all I care, reuse the bars although they are the laziest possible bar design (I am not exactly going to put any large effort in mockups). All my mockups are free to abuse, discuss rip apart and modify. In fact, my mock-up is not to be used as-is but rather as an "this is how it could look"...

- Maybe turn rate should also be a stat on engines?

- More interactions between items, these are not armor pieces that exist without connections, what is connected to what, and what is in a slot next to what or below or above what could matter.

- When I select very slow game pace, I do not want that the game should have major events every 5 seconds. Maybe the pacing still needs some adapting ;)

- Because this is an indy game I am not gonna bash the Intro movie. Though it might be advisable that when Drox gets on Steam not to play it at the start then. ;)

- I actually like the explosion and weapon effects, kudos for those ;)

- the fog of war and the border of the system need to be displayed properly in the actual game window. Having to explore by looking all the time on the minimap to see where to go is suboptimal.

Well that's all. Flame, enjoy and comment ;)

So yeah, that's my thoughts so far. I spend way too much time on that, nearly an hour o.O.  I should really start to save my mock-ups.. I still haven't found the cool font i used for the AVWW gui mockups again.. blimey ;)

And obviously my noob'ness in reading that the topic is moderator approved is gonna be hilarious if all 3 topics are approved (lets hope someone sees my fault and corrects it, but as I now have no idea when my topic is posted, I can't edit it to fix the image link, which somehow lost it's .jpg ) ^^ Also Soldak forums limit you to 5 images, that means 5 smilies OR 5 real images, or 5 real images, and no smilies  :-X  :'( :-* ::) :o How am I ever to post there without smilies?
« Last Edit: June 17, 2012, 09:20:22 pm by eRe4s3r »
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Drox Operative
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2012, 09:41:21 pm »
I didn't read it all (in an MP game of something else right now) but I love your alternate bar graphics.

One point of fact: armor and health are different; taking armor damage is just armor damage, but when you're taking structural damage you're also taking component/crew damage, which can hose you up handily.
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Offline Cyborg

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Re: Drox Operative
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2012, 10:14:28 pm »
Okay, so I tried it out for an hour:

* Don't know where I'm going despite having quests to go there
* Upgrading and items feel clunky. I can't tell when something is an upgrade or what slot it goes into quickly and easily
* Combat is annoying trying to click everything as fast as possible, including incoming missiles
* Quests feel like standard fetch and postal from MMORPG's

I'm going to give it more time, but I didn't get near the feeling of what you posted. I decided to try it because it does have a money back guarantee.
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Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Drox Operative
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2012, 10:22:16 pm »
Yeah but in display there is really no need to have 2 bars for something you can do in 1. ^^ When armor is gone, it's much more noticeable when the bars are gone and your HP reaches 50%. That way you don't have to keep track of 2 different bars. And you could even turn the color of the percentage to red when actual structural damage is taken. In any way, such "switch-over" gui bars are pretty nifty because you can quickly see WHEN you have armor how much of it is intact and if not, the health bar doubles as a full health bar. Obviously takes some effort to code that ;p

Also it's worth noting that the default GUI does not have bars. Without hovering over it, you would never know what the bar represents right now in terms of value. and 1% Health would be far more informative, and adding armor would add it to 51% which means, 1 green bar and full dark grey bars. Superior in every way ,)

Obviously the 0,0,255 blue GUI is overall something that pokes at me badly. As I said, you never do GUI with single full saturation colors of the base RGB level. It's like the first thing they teach you at digital art. In nature, 0,0,255 does not exist so humans regard it as unharmonious and alien.

And yeah, missile defense needs to become automated, items have very bad separation for categories. It's extremely hard to tell what is small/medium/heavy and combat needs a eve online like system for targeting, click and it shoots at it until its dead. It doesn't help that the Item Info text is also extremely ugly and overcolored (heh, yes there is such a thing ,p).

Gonna mock that up later depending on when my topic appears officially (haven't checked yet whether it has ,p) because the points mentioned by Cyborg are a good part 2.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Drox Operative
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2012, 11:54:08 pm »
* Don't know where I'm going despite having quests to go there
Yea, you have to scout to find starlanes and wormholes and go through them to find out how to get to the various stars.  Getting that done fast without taking too much time away from other critical early game activities is one of the challenges.  But it would be better if:
- add a diplomacy option to give/sell info on the location and destination of starlanes/wormholes.  This is already doable for jump gates in the player-buying-from-race direction (races don't use jump gates, so they wouldn't care) and for planets in the race-buying-from-player direction (though that would be nice to be done in both directions though it might generate a longer list than desirable).
- have races not give quests for places they don't know how to get to.  I mean, c'mon :)  Quests for "we've heard of star so-and-so but don't know how to get there, please find out how" would be ok, I think, since it wouldn't surprise the player if they didn't know where it was.
-- that said, since I started my second sector I only rarely hear about quests I care about where I don't know how to get there since I'm really aggressive in early scouting.

Quote
* Upgrading and items feel clunky. I can't tell when something is an upgrade or what slot it goes into quickly and easily
You can tell what type of slot takes an item by the borders: blue triangles in three corners is a heavy slot, orange triangles in two corners is a medium slot, a green triangle in a single corner is a light slot.  Cargo holds go in cargo slots but you won't pick those up often at all (I've seen about 1 per sector).

Edit: but I would dearly love some way to sort/filter my inventory and/or a vendor's items by slot type or main-stat (like +max-power-load or is-a-weapon or +attack or +thrust, etc).  I would have loved something similar in every ARPG I'm aware of; I think some WoW addons actually had workable features like that, but that's the only place I've seen them.  But my breadth of ARPG experience is relatively narrow so I may just be missing a good example.

Quote
* Combat is annoying trying to click everything as fast as possible, including incoming missiles
Mouse-only targeting is basically the same finger-buster as it has been in any ARPG for me.  Thankfully I've not had to do mouse-only targeting at all in this game:
- if I press 1, it uses the ability in slot one on the nearest target eligible for it.  And 2 uses the second slot, etc.  Simple flight and combat is actually possible one-handed if you leave movement on WASD and the abilities on Alpha1, Alpha2, etc; I've moved movement to Numpad8,4,5,6 so I more readily access all 10 ability slot keys. 
- There is some annoyingness in how once you have locked on to a target mashing the button won't do anything if the locked-on target is out of range; that makes sense from one perspective but not from my standard "make something die, there's like 20 things on my tail" perspective.  Given the number of input-mode toggles already present, I think he'll be willing to add one for "make direct-trigger abilities ignore locked-on-target if said target is out of range".

Quote
* Quests feel like standard fetch and postal from MMORPG's
A lot of the individual tasks are pretty similar, yea.  The difference is in what they mean:
- In an MMO or most any other ARPG, if they tell you something like "go buy some non-lethal weapons and sell/give them to planet X so they can handle some unrest" then the game will jolly well wait 20 years for you to do that and totally not care about the delay (and possibly refuse to advance the game at all until you do as you were told).
- Here:
-- In the meantime, that planet's production and whatnot is actually reduced, making it harder for them to build/replace defensive ships (edit: or combat ships to explore/patrol/attack, or passenger cruise ships for money runs, or diplomacy ships for +relations runs, or colony ships for new colonies; I've seen all those behaviors), and contributing less money to their race, etc.  That can be significant.
-- If you wait too long, either the unrest is resolved naturally (rare) or breaks out into a fiercer unrest or even outright rebellion (more penalties; I don't remember actually seing a planet change owners through rebellion, dunno if that's implemented).
-- Depending on which race it is and the diplomatic situation, you may not want to help them with the unrest.  And the game does not make you do it.  You might want them to get hurt.  You might have started the unrest yourself.  You might choose to run guerrilla weapons to the rebels instead.

And of course the ol':
- "if you don't kill this uprising, it might promote one of its members to a boss" (just saw this happen)
- "if you don't kill this boss, it might form a fleet"
- "if you don't kill this boss fleet, it might do a bunch of other nasty things, like start uprisings or even invasions" (just saw a three-wave invasion go across the announcement log)
- And the part that was new in this game compared to Din's for me: that invasion made me happy, because it was in the territory of the main remaining opponent race, so I was cheering for the monsters :)  Of course if it had been in my allies' territory I'd have felt differently about it.

Quote
I'm going to give it more time, but I didn't get near the feeling of what you posted. I decided to try it because it does have a money back guarantee.
The first sector had some oddness for me; the Dryad were colonizing like crazy in a way I haven't remotely seen in any of the other 4 sectors I've played.  I didn't mind so much, but it did lead to some other weirdness (the Dryad just giving me heaps of credits towards the end of my time in the sector, etc) and it does indicate that there may be bugs more subtle than any one tester is going to necessarily notice, but which lead to an undesirable range of experience.  I don't think that's what's going on here, I think partly it takes a while for interesting gear choices and quest situations to both happen and the player to understand what's going on.  That's a flaw, but I think it can be worked out in the beta.

And yes, the money-back guarantee is a good point.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 12:01:32 am by keith.lamothe »
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Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Drox Operative
« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2012, 12:25:28 am »
One of the primary gameplay issues is imo that you have no idea where anything is, but the game is way ahead of you if you explore first (Dryads.. yeah, they wiped out all 5 other races before i even got to the 3rd sector) I wasn't even able to find a system the Dryads had not yet reached, because their colonization fleets where the only easy way to find planets and space lanes
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Drox Operative
« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2012, 12:38:36 am »
One of the primary gameplay issues is imo that you have no idea where anything is, but the game is way ahead of you if you explore first (Dryads.. yeah, they wiped out all 5 other races before i even got to the 3rd sector) I wasn't even able to find a system the Dryads had not yet reached, because their colonization fleets where the only easy way to find planets and space lanes
Sounds like you had a similar first sector to mine.  Future ones have seen maybe 1/10th that intensity of colonization (I think it's because the monsters actually bite).

To find starlanes, just circle around the edge of the system such that you're just barely revealing the very edge, and you should find every starlane/wormhole (I generally see 2 per system, sometimes 3, rarely more).  Planets are all generally closer to the center.  0.901 added a tip about the starlane placement thing.

Regrettably, 0.901 also made missiles and mass drivers cost way more energy because apparently it wasn't intended that they be roughly 1/3rd and 1/2 (respectively) as much energy-per-second for sustained fire as beam weapons.  Seemed fine to me before, but now I really have to guzzle the energy-recharge consumables to fight much.  That works for me since they're cheap, but hopefully a different balance point will be found on energy costs, or it will be made clearer what sort of builds we're supposed to run if we want to be able to finish a fight without running dry (battery packs, backup batteries, emergency power, etc; I've seen several kinds of cool-looking toys all in some way designed to give you lots of energy, I just preferred the passive-regen ones... that aren't cutting it anymore).

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Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Drox Operative
« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2012, 01:22:29 am »
Yeah I find the early game (new ship) now nearly impossible. Or at least, you die a lot more, which means everything takes even longer and moves by you even faster. That said, by now my topic has yet not appeared and that makes me sad. I think I am gonna chalk this off as "maybe next week" ;p

I think the best way to beta test balance is by starting a really new game. Because you know nearly no beta tester is actually gonna do this ;p

I am gonna do some more GUI mockups for giggles though ^^
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Offline madcow

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Re: Drox Operative
« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2012, 10:29:31 am »
Went ahead and got it. I'll probably play a sector later this evening.

Edit: I know we were warned about the intro video, so I just had to watch it. Ahahaha, its like Keanu Reeves is doing the voiceover, its hilarious but unintentionally so I think.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 11:30:01 am by madcow »

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Drox Operative
« Reply #41 on: June 18, 2012, 03:48:41 pm »
So apparently my topic on Soldak was not approved then as it is not visible yet. Mhhh that's not exactly improving my motivation to bother continuing my constructive dismantling of the current flaws. Game is in a unique way fun though. But this reminds me why I only bother to be helpful here. Elsewhere people see -1- Post topic listing all the flaws and think I am just hating. Gah. I really should stop caring. :D
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 03:50:32 pm by eRe4s3r »
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Offline Castruccio

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Re: Drox Operative
« Reply #42 on: June 18, 2012, 05:41:55 pm »
I suspect there was some sort of error in the forum system.  I've been using the Soldak forums for years, and Steven is not the kind of guy who would disapprove of feedback about Soldak betas. 



Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Drox Operative
« Reply #43 on: June 18, 2012, 05:56:18 pm »
Well to be fair I kinda misunderstood the forum system to begin with. If you know SMF you see the message after a post at first it said too many images (which really confused me, like since when are smilies images in that sense :o) so I hit back and repost and for some reason that worked (or at least no message appeared), Guessing all smilies including the jpg i originally added got somehow killed on the way. But as the post didn't appear and it didn't redirect me to the posted topic (I had a second tab open because I wanted to add some more feedback that was posted here) I hit back and the post was gone (argh) so i pasted it in via some browser history trickery (thankfully that saved it) and forgot again to fix the image link back to jpg (but this time I removed the smilies by hand). So I am guessing there are 3 times topics with some more or less the same Thread Title in the queue. I must look like a fail spam bot lol.

So in between that and there.. I wouldn't blame him if he got confused as well. Just for the record, it didn't help that the "moderation awaiting" page looks EXACTLY like the topic posted redirect wait 3 seconds page. I have seen that so often I do not even perceive whatever comes after I press "new thread" anymore, so if anything, I am 66% to blame at least. As it was my first post I do not expect to be special for anti-spam reasons but this was extremely unlucky, as you can tell the post was kinda large with potential to get huge (large enough to edit it after you posted it at least a dozen times as new things are added). So even if the delay is not intentional it already destroyed my motivation to continue the topic. And it's just how I am, I was playing that yesterday, today.. was 33°C and I feel like a zombie. Not like writing sweeping beta feedback :D

I like the way the game can go so i am not in some way hating on the guy. It was just an unlucky thingy-ma-bob. I hope I get some email when the topic is approved, or I might never even know, as I have no link.

As you can tell, I am a pretty big noob when it comes to forum software that is not how I am used it. ^^ I often forget that arcengames forum also was shaped by players back in the 1.0 AI war days where a lot of graphical suggestions came about from various people and that got all limitations on images and most attachment limits removed near instantly. ;P Anyway, I have no ill intentions or something It's just that, with my erratic nature my next Drox post is likely not gonna be until we got some more beta updates.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 06:05:54 pm by eRe4s3r »
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Offline Castruccio

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Re: Drox Operative
« Reply #44 on: June 18, 2012, 06:42:12 pm »
Sounds good.  I'll let you know if your post happens to pop up over at Soldak.