DotA 2 Release Tournament!

[Wingflier]

Any of you interested in the MOBA Genre may want to know that DotA 2 is coming soon, with a bang.  Apparently they are hosting a tournament with a 1.6 million dollar prize pool for 16 teams from across the world.  The winning team gets 1 million dollars.  Valve, the creator of the game, claims that it is the biggest prize pool that e-sports has ever seen.

http://www.dota2.com/

This is not only a huge moment for original DotA fans (myself included) but also for e-sports fans around the world.  As the competitive e-sports scene continues to grow and thrive, it becomes more widely recognized and publicized, creating more tournaments and events to participate in (and watch).  I myself have become ecstatic about how popular e-sports are becoming, especially in the United States, and am proud to be part of the generation that gets to witness its rise to popularity.

League of Legends and Heroes of Newerth will no doubt both be affected by the release of the highly anticipated DotA 2, produced and created by Valve, while being directed by the creator of the highly successful mod that started it all, IceFrog himself.  Both games (League and HoN) have already taken drastic measures to compete with the soon-to-be released game, with League of Legends releasing their new Dominion Mode (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuINbQ3PLU0) and Heroes of Newerth going Free-to-Play (http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/07/29/heroes-of-newerth-goes-free-to-play/).  Will it be enough to save them from the oncoming MOBA Apocalypse though?  Only time will tell. 

I don't know about you guys but I'm super excited to see what happens.  The tournament begins on August 17th and lasts through the 21st and will be streamed around the world in 4 different languages.  Don't miss it!

[BobTheJanitor]

I've always had a vague interest in the DOTA-like/MOBA/whatever you want to call it genre, but I've always been turned off by the community which, as far as I can tell, is comprised of the worst people in the world, all shouting at one another. (present company excepted, I'm sure)

That said, it is Valve doing it, and they do have the Midas touch when it comes to games. (except Ricochet. We don't talk about Ricochet.) So I'm hoping this will be the one to make the genre accessible. I'll surely be watching this tournament with interest. To my mind, the worst problem with the genre which leads to the extreme rage that is its hallmark, is the fact that you are so reliant on your teammates and one bad person can ruin it for everyone. The question is whether there is a way to change the game enough to remove this problem and still have a game that can be called DOTA. I don't know if it's possible, but I suppose if anyone can do it, it would be Valve.

[Wingflier]

You are completely right to be "turned off" by the MOBA community, because they are infamously terrible.  It might be a stretch to accuse them of being comprised of the worst people in the world, but they certainly act like it sometimes.  Obviously not everybody acts like that, but as we've seen many times in human history, the vocal minority can ruin it for everybody else.

That said, it is Valve doing it, and they do have the Midas touch when it comes to games. (except Ricochet. We don't talk about Ricochet.) So I'm hoping this will be the one to make the genre accessible. I'll surely be watching this tournament with interest. To my mind, the worst problem with the genre which leads to the extreme rage that is its hallmark, is the fact that you are so reliant on your teammates and one bad person can ruin it for everyone. The question is whether there is a way to change the game enough to remove this problem and still have a game that can be called DOTA. I don't know if it's possible, but I suppose if anyone can do it, it would be Valve.

It's interesting that you mention this, because apparently Valve is working on a solution to fix the community, by making the abusive trolls pay more.  I have no idea how they are actually going to implement this into the game, or how you can even monitor that kind of behavior successfully, but if anybody can do it I believe in Valve.  I certainly hope they do come up with a solution, because I'm just as sick of the abuse and mistreatment as anybody else.  The genre should be accessible to anyone, not just people with thick skin.

Anyway, here's the article:  http://www.train2game.com/2011/05/valve-online-jerks-should-pay-more-for-games/

Unfortunately the problem with a**holes on the internet isn't caused by the MOBA games, it's simply brought out by them.  The flaring tempers and flagrant abuse of the people involved in these games is simply brought out by the stressful and intense team environment, not caused by it.  The anger and abuse of the people who play the games are a deeper problem caused by society and bad parenting, and in all fairness I don't really think it's the responsibility of the MOBA companies to be the parents these people never had.

[KingIsaacLinksr]

I'm curious to see what Valve will do about the community problem as its one of my biggest problems with highly competitive games like this.  (Hence why my library lacks them).  But I have doubts they can fix it but hey, if anyone can do it, I suppose Valve can.

King

[Wingflier]

Personally I have doubts myself.  The only system I can see working is a no-tolerance policy, where the first time you're caught being abusive to other players in-game, your account is banned forever, regardless of how much you've paid or played.  Unfortunately, from a marketing standpoint, this is completely unrealistic and would cause massive community backlash.  It's a tough nut to crack to be sure.

[quickstix]

It's always going to be difficult to keep the peace in a game where a newbie giving kills to the enemies is actually worse than them doing nothing at all, aka so called feeders. At least in most cases with TF2 pubbers, it doesn't matter if a newbie soldier gets killed so long as he's spamming rockets and trying to capture a point; three or four good players will usually carry a pub team and make up for it.

I'm interested to see if Valve will be able to appeal to a market wider than just the people who already know the ins and outs of DOTA. I like complex games, but the mechanics of the moba-genre to me seem too artificial and lacking in dynamics just for the sake of being a competitive game.

[Wingflier]

I'm interested to see if Valve will be able to appeal to a market wider than just the people who already know the ins and outs of DOTA. I like complex games, but the mechanics of the moba-genre to me seem too artificial and lacking in dynamics just for the sake of being a competitive game.

You may think so, but the extreme success of the MOBA genre signifies that many people see otherwise.  League of Legends is now (unless I'm mistaken) the 3rd most popular game in the world with millions of accounts and millions of players daily.  The market is already huge.

In terms of being a competitive game, DotA, a mod for the very dated Warcraft 3 engine was fairly successful with several tournaments in Europe and Asia with decent prize pools every year.  Heroes of Newerth has also had its share of competitive leagues and tournaments with prize pools and professional teams playing in them.  League of Legends has even seen a few tournaments (primarily WCG).

A professional DotA team was just bought out for 6.3 million dollars by a rich Chinese investor.  You may not think it's a competitive game, but many spectators and financial investors seem to feel the contrary.

[Commiesalami]

I'm interested to see if Valve will be able to appeal to a market wider than just the people who already know the ins and outs of DOTA. I like complex games, but the mechanics of the moba-genre to me seem too artificial and lacking in dynamics just for the sake of being a competitive game.

You may think so, but the extreme success of the MOBA genre signifies that many people see otherwise.  League of Legends is now (unless I'm mistaken) the 3rd most popular game in the world with millions of accounts and millions of players daily.  The market is already huge.

That number would have not include Facebook social games like farmville which currently has 8 million daily users and 33 million monthly users.  (Which peaked at over 80 million monthly users) 

Source: http://www.appdata.com/apps/facebook/102452128776-farmville

Newer Facebook games may be bigger, but I don't know whats new and popular.

I think right now league has 3 mil daily players which isn't shabby at all.

[quickstix]

You may think so, but the extreme success of the MOBA genre signifies that many people see otherwise.

I'm not doubting that moba-style games are competitive; I think it's great that the competitive scene is branching out to new games and to an audience wider than hardcore gamers. I enjoy my fair share of watching pro-SC2, especially the recentish TSL3 or GSL season. Nor am I saying that they're not popular, because they most certainly are (although you'd struggle to say that here in Australia).

However; sure, a million play every day, but can you dissect the data and tell me how many are veterans, how many are new, average playtimes, how many games played, new player retention/turnover and how often the same players return to the game? My concern is that competitive gaming is still struggling with the concept of making the learning and development process for newbies both fun and interesting. The reason that I stopped playing Starcraft 2 after a couple of months was that trying to get out of the newbie brackets required me spending hours and hours watching replays and memorising build orders; with the little time spent playing the game often being fustrated and annoyed and, more importantly, not having fun. I'm not sure that Starcraft 2 would have kept as many newbies around as it has if it wasn't for Day9, who has done an amazing job of demistifying the seemingly impossible barrier that is competitive gaming in SC2. Even then though, that's a community resource that isn't moderated by the game's makers. One of my biggest fustrations in LoL is actually trying to find well written and maintained information, because the official site doesn't go beyond the basics and stating the obvious. It shouldn't have to feel like a full-time job just to win a couple of games; especially when you only have an hour or two for gaming each night.

At least in games in TF2 (which has a great official wiki, much like AI War) you can give a newbie a rocket launcher and tell them to help cap a point, or heck, you can give a week old player a Rifter in Eve Online who can then tackle important targets and take out the small stuff big ships can't hit; all the while having fun while doing so. In DOTA, you might as well tell a newbie to stay in the spawn, because then they won't give the other team gold and exp. Competitive games need to be much more pro-active about helping the newbies along; you can't teach yourself football (soccer, whatever) on your own, you need to get into a club and learn from people who know what they're doing.

That Valve will be implementing coaching in DOTA2 is a positive sign that they are actually looking to keep newbies and help them along. Despite my concerns, I am actually interested to see the way Valve, a company where every decision is based on player feedback and the idea of newbie retention, take on DOTA 2.

EDIT: I don't want to sound like I'm beating on competitive gaming or the OP, but the issue of wider perceptions of esport and growth beyond unfriendly and elitist communities is tied directly to the issue of actually making learning and teaching the game fun and engaging, not a futile endeavour akin to squeezing blood from a stone.

[BobTheJanitor]

I think buffing the enemy team when you die (via gold/xp) is part of the problem. It's not a bad game mechanic, when both sides are experienced. But it's totally unforgiving to new players. Maybe Valve will put in different tiers of gameplay? I could see some sort of casual tier where maybe there is no xp for killing enemies, just for creeps, and some of these harsher edges can be blunted. It won't be as competitive or as balanced as a game at that level, but it will allow people to ease into the game.

Although, most of my experience with MOBAs comes through watching videos, and nothing hands on, so I could have some of my facts a little skewed.

[Hearteater]

I think it is very unlikely DOTA2 will take much from LoL unless they've heavily strayed from the original DOTA.  I consider HoN unplayable and for reference, I've got over 1200 normal games of LoL and almost 250 ranked games with a 1300+ rating.  Terrible UI, needless complexity, bad basic game mechanics all of which result because it was a port of DOTA.  So unless DOTA2 opts for the "same name, different game" approach, I'm not expecting anything all that impressive.

Two side notes:

* TF2 is horribly newbie unfriendly.  I would consider it cruel and unusual punishment to introduce anyone to that game.
* The community in LoL is no worse than anywhere else, and significantly better than most such as the aforementioned TF2, HoN and DOTA.

[BobTheJanitor]

* TF2 is horribly newbie unfriendly.  I would consider it cruel and unusual punishment to introduce anyone to that game.

Here comes the derail!

I'm not seeing that with TF2. Now, it's completely possible that I have blinders, because I have literally been playing that game since day one of the beta. But really for a new player, I don't see it being that hard. You point the gun at the guys who aren't your color and press mouse 1 and you've got 90% of the game covered. It has intro videos for all the game types that easily explain what to do. It has giant team colored arrows that pop up on the walls, so even on unfamiliar maps you can generally find which direction you should be running in to find the battle. I'm confused as to what is unfriendly to newbies about this.

[zebramatt]

* TF2 is horribly newbie unfriendly.  I would consider it cruel and unusual punishment to introduce anyone to that game.

Here comes the derail!

I'm not seeing that with TF2.

Agreed. For a game of its genre, it's really quite forgiving for new players. For a game of its genre.

[Wingflier]

I think it is very unlikely DOTA2 will take much from LoL unless they've heavily strayed from the original DOTA.

I think you may be underestimating the situation.  Valve is an extremely popular company, and IceFrog has a very loyal fanbase, being the pioneer of the original Warcraft 3 mod that started it all.  DotA was ridiculously popular for years before LoL or HoN even came along (in fact, they only came along because they saw how successful DotA was).  DotA sort of fell out of favor because the Warcraft 3 engine has become very dated and undesirable (compared to the newer games), but I think many people are just waiting for the sequel to go back to their roots.  I personally played DotA for about 5 years before I found HoN and started playing it.  From HoN I played LoL for about 6 months (I have over a 1000 games played for all 3 games of the genre), then went back to HoN while waiting for DotA 2.  For me, and for countless others I've talked to, none of the "spiritual successors" were ever as fun as the original.

I consider HoN unplayable and for reference, I've got over 1200 normal games of LoL and almost 250 ranked games with a 1300+ rating.  Terrible UI, needless complexity, bad basic game mechanics all of which result because it was a port of DOTA.  So unless DOTA2 opts for the "same name, different game" approach, I'm not expecting anything all that impressive.

I'm not sure how your expertise with LoL qualifies you to make judgements about another game it seems you've barely played.  If you had played several hundred games of HoN or DotA I might understand where you're coming from but it's like saying you've eaten 1000 McDonald's Meals and 1 Burger King Meal and you know McDonald's is better.  I used to have a lot of friends who played LoL who hated HoN because the learning curve is so dang high comparitively.  In LoL they remove instant-deaths, denying, gold from dying, rune control, teleport scrolls, and many other things that makes it a much easier game to start with.  However, every person that has given HoN a chance in my experience (a chance being a couple dozen games or so) ends up liking it a lot more.  Most people just don't make it that far (what with the horrible community, confusing mechanics, and no AI support I can't blame them).

I suppose it depends on what you're looking for.  LoL is a much more casual game and newbie-friendly, because of those complicated mechanics you mentioned earlier.  It is much easier to pick up and learn and play with your friends without getting bogged down with all the details, but because of all this it sacrifices depth.  DotA is a complete gauntlet for new players (from everything I've heard, I started playing it when it was relatively unknown), but if you stick with it long enough it becomes a much deeper, more competitive experience.  Can you say that either game is better?  Of course not, they both have their ups and downs, and as far as I'm concerned, they both target completely different audiences.

* The community in LoL is no worse than anywhere else, and significantly better than most such as the aforementioned TF2, HoN and DOTA.

Agreed, at least that the LoL community is much better than HoN.  This has a lot to do with Hon's in-depth stat-tracking in my opinion.  As soon as people's ego's are on the line, they start acting like barbarians if they're losing.  This is one more way that LoL being a more casual game is its saving grace.

I'm not seeing that with TF2. Now, it's completely possible that I have blinders, because I have literally been playing that game since day one of the beta. But really for a new player, I don't see it being that hard. You point the gun at the guys who aren't your color and press mouse 1 and you've got 90% of the game covered. It has intro videos for all the game types that easily explain what to do. It has giant team colored arrows that pop up on the walls, so even on unfamiliar maps you can generally find which direction you should be running in to find the battle. I'm confused as to what is unfriendly to newbies about this.

I'm also confused about what makes TF2 noobie unfriendly.  I guess in some ways all shooters are pretty noob-unfriendly because you'll probably die alot before you get the hang of the game; but as far as shooters go, I don't know if it gets much better for new players than TF2 (I would certainly recommend it over Halo, Call of Duty, or Counter-Strike).

[Hearteater]

I'm also confused about what makes TF2 noobie unfriendly.  I guess in some ways all shooters are pretty noob-unfriendly because you'll probably die alot before you get the hang of the game; but as far as shooters go, I don't know if it gets much better for new players than TF2

And that's my point on TF2.  New players will die repeatedly, instantly, without any understanding of how to avoid dying besides not leaving the starting room.  Just because TF2 might have the "best" newbie experience of all FPS doesn't mean it is newbie friendly.  I think the FPS genre doesn't yet have a newbie friendly major title, and that's something they need to work on.

I'm not sure how your expertise with LoL qualifies you to make judgements about another game it seems you've barely played.

Because with all that experience, I find HoN unplayable.  They literally have possibly the worst UI imaginable.  Units and Heroes look the same.  Both sides units look the same.  Health bars change color as damage is accured, making friend-foe identification even more difficult.  That UI is a relic of WC3 and needs to be thrown away.  Just compare LoL and HoN and LoL conveys the information in a much more clear and clean fashion.

I like the genre, but HoN does it all wrong.  I can't play it and I'm not alone (the numbers speak for themselves).  That game just punches you in the face repeatedly with particle effects the obscure what's happening and makes everything you want to do more painful.  Unless DOTA2 does it different, it won't matter that it is Valve.  DOTA2's hardcore audience is largely playing HoN.  To pull from LoLs larger casual audience they've got to make a lot of changes to the DOTA formula that HoN wasn't willing to make.  I haven't heard that they've done that, but I haven't been tracking it that closely recently.