Author Topic: DotA 2 Release Tournament!  (Read 6468 times)

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: DotA 2 Release Tournament!
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2011, 12:51:56 pm »

* TF2 is horribly newbie unfriendly.  I would consider it cruel and unusual punishment to introduce anyone to that game.


As a newbie that joined when TF2 was just put out for F2P, I found it to be a rather relaxed game setting.  Oh sure, a few people went "wtf" when we lost or a few people on the voice chat voiced some annoyances, but overall, it was rather fun, despite being a noob at both FPSes and TF2.  Sure, I died more times than I care to count, but it was still fun.  And I doubt I would find such an atmosphere in games like CoD or LoL....

Granted, maybe it depends on the server, as I just randomly joined games. 

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« Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 12:54:27 pm by KingIsaacLinksr »
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Offline BobTheJanitor

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Re: DotA 2 Release Tournament!
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2011, 01:47:00 pm »
I guess it depends what sort of newbie we're talking about here. If it's someone who doesn't know anything about FPS games, yeah, they're going to have trouble in any game they step into. I'm assuming we mean 'familiar with games in general, new to TF2' when we say newbie. In which case I still stick with my point that TF2 is as friendly as you can get. It has prominent training maps that have been added that explain to new players the basics of what they should be doing. When you die,  you literally get a full screen shot of the guy that killed you, and a description of the weapon he's carrying if you are confused about that. I find when I go to other games that I get annoyed that it doesn't point out who killed me so I have no way to learn what I did wrong.

For me the least friendly facet of TF2 would be the multitude of items. Although most of them are just variations on a theme for each class, so you don't really need to know everything about them to be able to deal with them. But a new player could be overwhelmed and assume that they need to know what everything does to be competent at the game, which isn't really true. Although they don't really have any way of knowing that.

Offline Cyborg

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Re: DotA 2 Release Tournament!
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2011, 06:38:40 pm »
    Because with all that experience, I find HoN unplayable.  They literally have possibly the worst UI imaginable.  Units and Heroes look the same.  Both sides units look the same.  Health bars change color as damage is accured, making friend-foe identification even more difficult.  That UI is a relic of WC3 and needs to be thrown away.  Just compare LoL and HoN and LoL conveys the information in a much more clear and clean fashion.

    I like the genre, but HoN does it all wrong.  I can't play it and I'm not alone (the numbers speak for themselves).  That game just punches you in the face repeatedly with particle effects the obscure what's happening and makes everything you want to do more painful.  Unless DOTA2 does it different, it won't matter that it is Valve.  DOTA2's hardcore audience is largely playing HoN.  To pull from LoLs larger casual audience they've got to make a lot of changes to the DOTA formula that HoN wasn't willing to make.  I haven't heard that they've done that, but I haven't been tracking it that closely recently.

    That was my opinion as well of HoN and also my projections for dota.

    In regards to the raging, there needs to be an easier way to ignore people and turn off the chat. There are games where I go 20-1, with multiple assists, two or three towers, and my teammates are all negative ratios, but I am the one that gets yelled at. Honestly, this is how I see MOBA players:

    • Vain
    • self absorbed
    • the emotional level of a child
    • Inability to take responsibility
    • inability to give credit where it's due

    I saw a broadcasted game where a girl was playing with this guy. He was flirting with her the entire time, she was crowing about how awesome she was, and every time she died it was somehow his fault. The game ended with her cussing him out pretty thoroughly because they lost, and he took it like a champ because after all, she is a girl, which we all know have magical powers over the majority male MOBA gamer.

    Another example. How many teams have you played on where people are basically shouting, "look how awesome I am, did you see that?" But if you get the kill, it's only because you stole it. There is this question of kill ownership, which is completely fallacious. It is this the world revolves around me scenario, where the only person that should be doing well is yourself, and if someone else is doing well is because they either have a better character or they are cheating you out of having an awesome game.

    Also, many people are not able to use the mini map. How many times do you hear people complain that you "didn't call MIA?" I never rely on that. I barely read the chat, and I only die maybe a couple times a game, if that. I am constantly looking at my map, and I am able to see who is missing.

    The main thing that would improve MOBA is if everyone took responsibility for their own deaths. You can only control your own character, and you need to be able to do that in the midst of a variety of skill levels and other players. Nobody except yourself is controlling your character. That is the first step to achieving inner peace while playing this game and is also the first step to getting better. Look within first whenever you die.

    Of course, nobody will ever do that. No true solution will ever be found because a community that is completely overrun with abuse cannot regulate itself. The best thing you can do is just ignore the chat once it inevitably goes to hell, or find a group of gamers that can stand each other. I have yet to find anybody that can play peacefully and without raging besides myself.[/list]

    Another edit. I find that if ever I am joined with a premade group of players, I am expected to do worse than them. If I do better than them, it's because I'm cheating them out of having a great game. They feel it makes them look bad when some random public person that they have been denigrating throughout every one of their games all day suddenly shows them a thing or two. That totally burns of them up and is another reason I do not like the tribunal.

    another forum bug, I cannot delete that list tag because it auto inserts itself!
    « Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 06:44:51 pm by Cyborg »
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    Offline Wingflier

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    Re: DotA 2 Release Tournament!
    « Reply #18 on: August 09, 2011, 06:44:05 pm »
    Quote
    Unfortunately the problem with a**holes on the internet isn't caused by the MOBA games, it's simply brought out by them.  The flaring tempers and flagrant abuse of the people involved in these games is simply brought out by the stressful and intense team environment, not caused by it.  The anger and abuse of the people who play the games are a deeper problem caused by society and bad parenting, and in all fairness I don't really think it's the responsibility of the MOBA companies to be the parents these people never had.
    Quoting what I said before, MOBAs don't cause people to act like this, those problems are already there, they just bring them out.

    I agree that the way people act during games can be ridiculous, but something you don't seem to realize is that this is people act in REAL LIFE.  Just because it's not as pronounced as in a MOBA game, the things you are talking about like nobody taking the blame, the world revolving around me, nobody paying attention to what's going on, then taking all the credit when something goes right, that's the kind of behavior I see from real people everyday.  Just because they don't have the anonymity the internet provides doesn't make it extremely obvious to me or anybody else who's paying attention.

    Also, it seems a little disingenious for you to imply that you're the only person who can play a MOBA game with a calm attitude and while treating other people with dignity.  Surely we're not all selfish heathens ;p
    « Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 06:47:08 pm by Wingflier »
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    Offline Cyborg

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    Re: DotA 2 Release Tournament!
    « Reply #19 on: August 09, 2011, 06:46:22 pm »
    Also, it seems a little disingenious for you to imply that you're the only person who can play a MOBA game with a calm attitude and treating other people fairly.  Surely we're not all selfish heathens ;p

    I'm sure there are peaceful players out there; I'm just not lucky enough to know them to make a group and play.
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    Offline Wingflier

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    Re: DotA 2 Release Tournament!
    « Reply #20 on: August 09, 2011, 06:47:45 pm »
    You play League of Legends or HoN?
    "Inner peace is the void of expectation. It is the absence of our shared desperation to feel a certain way."

    Offline Cyborg

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    Re: DotA 2 Release Tournament!
    « Reply #21 on: August 09, 2011, 06:50:13 pm »
    You play League of Legends or HoN?

    LoL.
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    Offline Wingflier

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    Re: DotA 2 Release Tournament!
    « Reply #22 on: August 09, 2011, 06:53:04 pm »
    Well that may be part of your problem.  League of Legends is a casual game designed for young audiences.  From the cartoony graphics, to the kiddie characters, to the fact that it doesn't require a credit card to play.  You can't expect maturity out of a game whose demographic is teenagers or young adults.

    Sure, games targeting more adult audiences like DotA and HoN aren't much better most the time, but because they target adults, occasionally you get people that act like one.
    "Inner peace is the void of expectation. It is the absence of our shared desperation to feel a certain way."

    Offline Cyborg

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    Re: DotA 2 Release Tournament!
    « Reply #23 on: August 09, 2011, 06:59:53 pm »
    Well that may be part of your problem.  League of Legends is a casual game designed for young audiences.  From the cartoony graphics, to the kiddie characters, to the fact that it doesn't require a credit card to play.  You can't expect maturity out of a game whose demographic is teenagers or young adults.

    Sure, games targeting more adult audiences like DotA and HoN aren't much better most the time, but because they target adults, occasionally you get people that act like one.

     
    I have both of those. Same scum. Your argument would mean that having an Xbox live account would somehow eliminate the chaff, which we all know is laughable.
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    Offline Wingflier

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    Re: DotA 2 Release Tournament!
    « Reply #24 on: August 09, 2011, 07:03:07 pm »
    Well that may be part of your problem.  League of Legends is a casual game designed for young audiences.  From the cartoony graphics, to the kiddie characters, to the fact that it doesn't require a credit card to play.  You can't expect maturity out of a game whose demographic is teenagers or young adults.

    Sure, games targeting more adult audiences like DotA and HoN aren't much better most the time, but because they target adults, occasionally you get people that act like one.

     
    I have both of those. Same scum. Your argument would mean that having an Xbox live account would somehow eliminate the chaff, which we all know is laughable.
    Well having both and playing them is somewhat different ;p It may take more than a few games to find reasonable people you can get along with.  And surely not everybody who uses Xbox live is a sociopath :P
    « Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 07:07:14 pm by Wingflier »
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    Offline Cyborg

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    Re: DotA 2 Release Tournament!
    « Reply #25 on: August 09, 2011, 07:17:55 pm »
    Well having both and playing them is somewhat different ;p It may take more than a few games to find reasonable people you can get along with.  And surely not everybody who uses Xbox live is a sociopath :P

     ::)

    I played both of them quite a bit, dota moreso. You continue to pile on fallacious arguments. I'm just pointing out that your credit card and 'cartoony graphics' comments don't make any sense, especially considering warcraft 3 was heavily criticized for such. Also, saying LoL is just for kids... I don't know about that. What about World of Warcraft? That has cartoony graphics and requires a credit card; tons of kids play that game.

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    Offline Wingflier

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    Re: DotA 2 Release Tournament!
    « Reply #26 on: August 09, 2011, 07:41:50 pm »
    I'm not saying LoL is just for kids, I'm saying it targets a younger audience, which it does.  It doesn't mean that kids can't use their parents credit cards to play the game, but even you have to admit that a free-to-play game is much more accessible to children than one which has an initial pricetag.  It's just my experience after playing thousands of games of LoL, HoN, and DotA that LoL has the youngest audience and most the players there are casual.  I've met plenty of HoN and DotA players that are enjoyable, reasonable people; most LoL players I know act like children.
    « Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 07:44:15 pm by Wingflier »
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    Offline BobTheJanitor

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    Re: DotA 2 Release Tournament!
    « Reply #27 on: August 09, 2011, 08:38:46 pm »
    Can I just jump in to say that LoL versus HoN is an argument that no one really wants to hear again. Everyone's doing a good job of keeping it mature for now, but the general gravity of the two groups of fans always tends towards an ugly crash at the end. And honestly, outside observers like myself generally find it silly at best.

    Cartoony games, even games designed specifically for younger players, can still have in-depth strategic gameplay. Go play Altitude some time. Graphically it's extremely simplistic and cartoonish, but at the higher levels the teamplay and strategic depth can be huge.

    And nothing about MOBAs makes people into jerks. People are jerks. Full stop. However, many things about the designs of MOBAs do tend to irritate people and bring out the jerk in them, moreso than other games perhaps. Any player versus player situation is going to make people dip into their primeval idiot brain a bit and start getting angry when they shouldn't be. It's the nature of competition. It's your body preparing you to fight off a sabre toothed tiger. Your body doesn't know that there hasn't been one along this way for millions of years. Any competition of any sort still touches that nerve in people, and when people are in that state they are more likely to throw propriety out the window and live right out of their id. They get mad, they swear in poorly spelled reams of text, they pound on their desk and throw their mouse. Later on they'll look back and feel silly about it, but when they're in that state, they don't care.

    As a side example, TF2, in it's own way, does a lot to defuse that PvP anger. The game is generally so silly looking and does little to punish your mistakes, so you can get right back into it with a laugh any time you die.

    On the other hand, in a game where a mistake made by someone else can mean that you've lost a 30 minute match, combined with the general heightened state of irritation that PvP brings about, of course you're going to get a community with a reputation as complete and total ********s. (Fill in your own favorite word.)

    Offline Cyborg

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    Re: DotA 2 Release Tournament!
    « Reply #28 on: August 09, 2011, 08:46:40 pm »
    As a side example, TF2, in it's own way, does a lot to defuse that PvP anger. The game is generally so silly looking and does little to punish your mistakes, so you can get right back into it with a laugh any time you die.

    That's funny. Don't debate HoN vs LoL...but fyi tf2 has a superior anger mechanism? Please. I played that game, and it's the same chatter. I will agree with you that wasting 30 min. is a bigger explosion, but to say that player harassment doesn't run rampant among an overall crappy community on team Fortress is just not true.

    Anyways, I would enjoy hearing more about the elite HoN community over the childish LoL community from a guy complaining about my Little pony fans on their forums.
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    Offline Orelius

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    Re: DotA 2 Release Tournament!
    « Reply #29 on: August 09, 2011, 08:58:05 pm »