DotA 2 announces Free-to-Play with all heroes and gameplay elements unlocked!

[keith.lamothe]

I'm glad Arcen didn't take that approach with AI Wars.

There's actually quite a bit of stuff in AIW that tends to quickly establish for people that they may not be compatible with the game   And when deciding what to change we're much more oriented towards what would make our existing community happy than the new player experience; we definitely don't want to make the latter worse, and we try to make it better, but it's probably barely on the top-10 major considerations, if that, on a day-to-day basis.

Of course, often improving the game for existing players necessarily makes it easier for new players to pick it up.  Helper mode was added to support other use cases, but it's good for introducing new players.  The energy rework was just to reduce frustration in players who've stuck it out long enough to encounter the long-term impact of the old system, but it certainly doesn't hurt comprehension to have that simplified a bit, etc.

[eRe4s3r]

The difference is that AI War is unique, and DOTA 2 is just a glorified map! If it weren't free I wouldn't even care. I just find it hilarious there is no campaign, no more than 1 map, and no proper tutorial.

Dota 2 is a good map for the Dota 1 fans, that's it. It is not a good game, because it isn't one. It's a map.

[Wingflier]

The difference is that AI War is unique, and DOTA 2 is just a glorified map! If it weren't free I wouldn't even care. I just find it hilarious there is no campaign, no more than 1 map, and no proper tutorial.

Dota 2 is a good map for the Dota 1 fans, that's it. It is not a good game, because it isn't one. It's a map.

I am baffled by your apparent hatred of the game, and I have no idea where this is coming from.

DotA 1 is the map that spawned an entire genre.  Without DotA All-Stars, there would be no LoL, no HoN, no Smite, no MOBA/ARTS genre. 

Besides, are you saying we can't take it seriously because it always happens on the same battlefield?  Can we not take Football seriously because it always happens on the same Football Field (with minor variations)?  Do we need Football Fields made of concrete, gravel, or swamp before Football can become a real sport?

The DotA map has over 100 heroes with unique skillsets, over 100 unique items, which all combine to have tens of thousands of different interactions.  It's a game that has been designed over 11 years, with billions of hours of player testing from tens of millions of people from all over the globe.  There is a tournament coming up for it next month in which the prize pool is 1.6 million dollars, and this doesn't even include the costs of operation.  You're going to automatically label it as "bad" because it all takes place on one map?

Part of the reason IceFrog and Valve upgraded from the Warcraft 3 engine is so they would have the ability to do things like add more maps to the game.  It's still in beta for heaven's sake, how can you complain about no tutorial?

If you hate DotA, just come out and say that.  I know the community can be awful, but can you really hate the game because of the community?  I mean I wish I understood what was really bothering you so we could talk about that.

[zebramatt]

I've noticed the Off Topic forum becoming increasingly hostile of late!

[keith.lamothe]

I've noticed the Off Topic forum becoming increasingly hostile of late!

This was actually tamer than I thought it was going to get

[Wingflier]

I've tried to be civil!

[zebramatt]

I meant relatively.   

[KingIsaacLinksr]

I do have to agree with the maps thing. You don't need a billion maps for a game, whether it be RTS, DOTA or otherwise. You just need one really good, balanced map. Heck, as far as I know, LoL only has one map because it's the only one anyone seems to play on and actually record footage for. So it seems fine to me. *shrug*.

[keith.lamothe]

Heck, as far as I know, LoL only has one map because it's the only one anyone seems to play on and actually record footage for. So it seems fine to me. *shrug*.

They also have a 3v3 map and a map for the Dominions mode.  But yea, Summoner's Rift is what one generally sees.

[Wingflier]

I want new maps for DotA just as much as the next guy.  Playing on the same map for 9 years gets very tiresome.  But I wouldn't automatically call it bad for that reason alone ;p

[eRe4s3r]

I didn't call it bad, I refuse to call it a PC Game, that's all Simply because DOTA is a game-mode it is not a game. DOTA is a game-mode for a map. And just because you only knew the original dota map doesn't mean there haven't been around hundreds more, and a lot better ones for WC3...

So to me, the focus on a single map of the official DOTA wc3 map is laziness in the purest form. Yeah, so hero balance is important, but maps? If balance is OK you can make all kinds of maps, rank up creeps to 11 and size of maps by factor 3 or 4. Allow team creep upgrades and so on.

I just expected a bit more after all this hype. Sadly, DOTA 2 has attracted the same fracked up community as LoL and HoN. But given how long games can actually take, it does not surprise me.

[keith.lamothe]

Simply because DOTA is a game-mode it is not a game. DOTA is a game-mode for a map. And just because you only knew the original dota map doesn't mean there haven't been around hundreds more, and a lot better ones for WC3...

Is tower-defense a genre?  Are tower-defense games games?  It all started with Starcraft and WC3 mods, iirc

[eRe4s3r]

Mhhh, good point ;9 But all "good" tower defense games do MORE than the literal meaning of that. If you only make a game that is a 1:1 copy of SC1 FancyTD or whatever I would refuse judging it as a game. I would judge your map vs the original map. Just because you wrap it in a fancy GUI and exe doesn't make it a real game.

Maybe it's because I grew up with SC1 that I see this so harshly. To me, if your "game" is just cloning 1 map and 1 game-mode of another game I refuse calling it a game. It is nothing but a copy

No original creation.

[Wingflier]

I didn't call it bad, I refuse to call it a PC Game, that's all Simply because DOTA is a game-mode it is not a game. DOTA is a game-mode for a map. And just because you only knew the original dota map doesn't mean there haven't been around hundreds more, and a lot better ones for WC3...

So to me, the focus on a single map of the official DOTA wc3 map is laziness in the purest form. Yeah, so hero balance is important, but maps? If balance is OK you can make all kinds of maps, rank up creeps to 11 and size of maps by factor 3 or 4. Allow team creep upgrades and so on.

I just expected a bit more after all this hype. Sadly, DOTA 2 has attracted the same fracked up community as LoL and HoN. But given how long games can actually take, it does not surprise me.

*Shrug* I guess I don't need your approval.  Between DotA and LoL alone you've probably got 20 million players easily.  It's not going to meet everybody's standards of "a game", but you can poke holes in any form of entertainment if you want.  I think World of Warcraft is closer to a huge grindy waste of time than a game but I don't typically go into forums trying to convince everybody of that.

DotA 1 was an original creation, it's been developed over 11 years and has changed significantly throughout that time.  It ignited a hugely popular and profitable genre.  Just because the transition from DotA 1 to DotA 2 wasn't a complete revamp doesn't mean it's no longer a game.  Comparing DotA when it first started to DotA 2 is like comparing AI War 1.0 to AI War 10.0 - yes, it will still have a lot of similarities, but it's also going to be a heck of a lot better after 11 years of development.

[keith.lamothe]

Mhhh, good point ;9 But all "good" tower defense games do MORE than the literal meaning of that. If you only make a game that is a 1:1 copy of SC1 FancyTD or whatever I would refuse judging it as a game. I would judge your map vs the original map. Just because you wrap it in a fancy GUI and exe doesn't make it a real game.

Maybe it's because I grew up with SC1 that I see this so harshly. To me, if your "game" is just cloning 1 map and 1 game-mode of another game I refuse calling it a game. It is nothing but a copy

No original creation.

The game-mode itself was an original creation, in both cases.  Not the bare mechanics of the RTS (which tower defense games and MOBA games still are), but the application of them to new game design.

Or put another way: game-design-wise DOTA was more original than WC3, because WC3 was largely copying WC2 (they did seriously flesh out heroes and creeps, but still).  DOTA plays totally different than any WC2 game I remember playing (never played WC3, ironically).