Author Topic: DotA 2 announces Free-to-Play with all heroes and gameplay elements unlocked!  (Read 37420 times)

Offline Wingflier

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Re: DotA 2 announces Free-to-Play with all heroes and gameplay elements unlocked!
« Reply #105 on: September 01, 2012, 08:58:06 am »
Yeah, some of the casters got really excited. There were some BIG plays. It was fun to watch.
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: DotA 2 announces Free-to-Play with all heroes and gameplay elements unlocked!
« Reply #106 on: September 01, 2012, 08:59:33 am »
I find it amusing that stuff is BANNED in an tournament. If it's so hilarious unbalanced, why is it even in the game?
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: DotA 2 announces Free-to-Play with all heroes and gameplay elements unlocked!
« Reply #107 on: September 01, 2012, 09:37:37 am »
I didn't hear about that. What's banned from the tournament?
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: DotA 2 announces Free-to-Play with all heroes and gameplay elements unlocked!
« Reply #108 on: September 01, 2012, 09:40:01 am »
Hehe ;) Well not everyone can like everything. I guess I am just not made for DOTA, I already didn't like it beyond map revision 3 in WC3...

Mhh, wc3.. i might want to play that now ;P
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: DotA 2 announces Free-to-Play with all heroes and gameplay elements unlocked!
« Reply #109 on: September 01, 2012, 09:41:15 am »
I didn't hear about that. What's banned from the tournament?

The heroes that are constantly picked and ban depend heavily on the current metagame.  Metagame shifts happen over time, and even if nothing major has changed about the game, the heroes that are typically picked and banned can vary wildly from year to year.

Right now Lycan and Syllabear seem to be a huge part of competitive play for whatever reason.  They are carries who are also decent junglers and pusher, as well as being significantly hard to kill.  Sometimes you see certain heroes become so feared that they are basically instantly banned.  Either people figure out how to counter that hero (often happens), or the hero itself gets nerfed.  Sometimes it's a combination of both.
You said it yourself! :/
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Offline Minotaar

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Re: DotA 2 announces Free-to-Play with all heroes and gameplay elements unlocked!
« Reply #110 on: September 01, 2012, 09:46:43 am »
Moonshine Fox, banning exists to make the picking phase more strategic, not to remove "hilariously unbalanced" heroes from the pool :) The top-tier heroes end up banned quite often (and it seems the top tier is quite small right now), but still get played from time to time.

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: DotA 2 announces Free-to-Play with all heroes and gameplay elements unlocked!
« Reply #111 on: September 01, 2012, 09:52:25 am »
How does that make the picking phase more strategic? I have basically 0 interest in the MOBA genre, so I'm not into the metagame or the high level mechanics to understand how this makes it any more strategic.

To me, it sounds more like the tourney people thinking "Okay, so everyone plays this hero in the current comp scene...cool, let's screw them over by banning that hero. LOL!"
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: DotA 2 announces Free-to-Play with all heroes and gameplay elements unlocked!
« Reply #112 on: September 01, 2012, 10:05:11 am »
Basically, the banning phase exists to counter the enemy team's playstyle and strategy.

If you haven't really played that many ARTS/MOBA games, it might be hard to understand, but I'll try to explain it to you as simply as I can.

Let's say that there are 5 different main strategies teams generally use in DotA 2:

1. Pushing
2. Ganking (Assassination)
3. Team Fight
4. Balanced
5. Carry (Lategame)

Most teams usually fit into one of these categories, are there are certain heroes that make each category much easier and more effective to do.

So say, for example, that Team 1 is going for a heavy tower push lineup.  The team that is facing them (Team 2) may start banning heroes that are really good at pushing so that Team 1's strategy doesn't become overwhelmingly good.  However, Team 1 may start banning ANTI-Pushing heroes as well, in order to make their strategy more effective.

In other words, bans are a way to shut your opponent's strategy down while making yours more effective.  It would be like banning your opponent's units in an RTS game that counter your strategy, or make his predicted strategy harder to execute.

There's also an aspect of banning known as "legacy bans" or "respect bans", which basically means banning a hero (or heroes) that someone on the other team is ridiculously good with.  The reason it's called a "respect ban" is because you respect a person's ability to play a certain hero so much, that you ban that hero just so they can't have them.  In the Na'vi vs. IG games yesterday, IG banned Pudge all 3 games.  Pudge is a hero that is barely picked in competitive play, but Na'vi knows how to use him so well that IG was afraid to let them have it.

In summary, banning primarily exists (in theory) to make the game more interesting, varied, and strategic.  However, like Lancefighter said, a lot of the time bans just come down to taking certain perceived overpowered heroes out of the game.  This is very boring and stagnant, and hopefully something IceFrog and Valve continue to work on as DotA evolves.
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: DotA 2 announces Free-to-Play with all heroes and gameplay elements unlocked!
« Reply #113 on: September 01, 2012, 10:07:05 am »
I see, so the bans are not from the tourney arrangers, but from the opposing team? That makes more sense.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: DotA 2 announces Free-to-Play with all heroes and gameplay elements unlocked!
« Reply #114 on: September 01, 2012, 10:20:54 am »
Yes, the opposing teams ban heroes to counter their enemy's strategy, while making theirs easier to execute.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvFCiUuujZI&feature=player_embedded#t=50s

Here's an analysis example of a recent pick/ban phase.  It's much easier to see on high quality btw.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: DotA 2 announces Free-to-Play with all heroes and gameplay elements unlocked!
« Reply #115 on: September 01, 2012, 10:56:05 am »
Yea, the ban part of the match opening is actually a really ingenious mechanic.  The only hero I've seen banned _every_ time is Naga Siren.  Even Lycan got to play in one game, though that team lost that game despite the hilarious pushing power.

So it's not like there's a ton of Objectively Unbalanced heros out there.  Naga Siren might be, from what I can tell, but if it's just one that's a pretty good ratio.  Of course, heroes like Lycan and Nature's Prophet and Broodmother can destabilize a matchup, but I've seen teams with them lose too, so it's not too far off.
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Offline Minotaar

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Re: DotA 2 announces Free-to-Play with all heroes and gameplay elements unlocked!
« Reply #116 on: September 01, 2012, 11:28:13 am »
Yea, the ban part of the match opening is actually a really ingenious mechanic.  The only hero I've seen banned _every_ time is Naga Siren.  Even Lycan got to play in one game, though that team lost that game despite the hilarious pushing power.

So it's not like there's a ton of Objectively Unbalanced heros out there.  Naga Siren might be, from what I can tell, but if it's just one that's a pretty good ratio.  Of course, heroes like Lycan and Nature's Prophet and Broodmother can destabilize a matchup, but I've seen teams with them lose too, so it's not too far off.

Actually there's a bunch of stats right here: http://dota-academy.com/tournament/58/
Naga has been banned 118 times and picked 9 times, and out of those 9 times only scored 3 wins  :) Na'Vi for example specifically prepared for Naga and gave it away to DK. It worked out pretty well  :)

Offline Wingflier

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Re: DotA 2 announces Free-to-Play with all heroes and gameplay elements unlocked!
« Reply #117 on: September 01, 2012, 11:33:27 am »
As I said, "perceived imbalances".  Sometimes I'm not convinced a hero is actually overpowered, people just have that perception of them.  How do you change that perception enough to make the hero picks more varied?  That's the million dollar question.
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: DotA 2 announces Free-to-Play with all heroes and gameplay elements unlocked!
« Reply #118 on: September 01, 2012, 12:25:10 pm »
both naga and lycan made it through to navi v dk game 3. It was an amazing game, and I highly recommend people watch it.

http://dota2.com/international/game/12/

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Offline Wingflier

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Re: DotA 2 announces Free-to-Play with all heroes and gameplay elements unlocked!
« Reply #119 on: September 01, 2012, 07:58:56 pm »
Who says DotA 2 games are long and boring?

IG just beat Na'vi in 16 minutes :P
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