Author Topic: Dota 2- 7.00  (Read 2088 times)

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Dota 2- 7.00
« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2017, 03:20:51 PM »
I would say that it probably won't be long before Esports overtakes actual sports in terms of both popularity and monetary gain.

Exercise, fitness, and physical activity certainly isn't getting any more popular in the most obese country on Earth, while the popularity and profit of video games continues to rise like clockwork.

It is in the best interest of games like DotA 2 to maintain their popularity as probably the most profitable E-Sport in the world, and if they changed the last hitting mechanics chances are they lose a HUGE percentage of their playerbase.

Like I said there are tons of alternative MOBAs that have altered or removed that mechanic completely (one which I'm going to make a new thread about in a bit), but it doesn't seem like MOBAs are your thing anyway, which I can't blame you for but yeah.
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Offline TheVampire100

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Re: Dota 2- 7.00
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2017, 05:45:45 PM »
The problem with Mobas is also, if you select one to paly regulary, there is almost no chance, that you can play a second one. These games are so complex and require such a big amount of knowledge, that its hard to maintain two games regualry.
Learnign Dota took me like forever and while I branch out here and there and look up other Mobas, I bounce off because it would require me a lot of time to learn them too and this would take me additonally away from Dota.
HotS is somehow in an extra spot because... there is not much to learn there. Once you learn the heroes, you are done. It's a casual game that is made for casual gamers. Ideal fi you don't have the time or motiviation to learn such a game but not ideal for people that like something more complex. The strategy possibilities in HotS are very limiting.

Battleborn had a nice concept and a similiar casual nature like HotS and Smite but the developers failed in multiple parts to make the game mass appealing and even the f2p launch failed so hard, that the game will never recover.

Smite is a cool action concept but the controls are terrible unless you decide to change them. Then it's okay. But Smite has the problem, it's hard to look up, what the other heroes do during a match. between amtches, no problem but you have no chance to look it up during the match itself unless you are willing to sacrifice time/your focus. This means you have to learn these between matches and remember them all.

Offline Misery

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Re: Dota 2- 7.00
« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2017, 03:48:16 AM »
When it comes to the whole last-hit thing, indeed, I never thought Dota would ever be free of it, which is why it's mostly pointless for me to have a go at it.  Yes, other games like LoL technically have it, but in THAT it could be totally ignored due to the nature of the combat.  In Dota, you poke everything to death with basic attacks, dramatically increasing the focus on that last hit.  In LoL, you use spells/abilities that are good at lane clearing, simply frying piles of creeps in one hit while hopefully smacking your opponent with them.  Exact timing stops being an issue, poking at things REALLY SLOWLY stops being an issue, and the whole thing ends up playing into a constant back-and-forth battle between you and your opponent, dodging constant lasers and energy waves and whatever, instead of what I always saw in Dota, which was just two sides competing in who could do the poking better and who could anti-poke creeps to stop their opponents from poking them, while firing off a spell once every 20 years.  It was boring.  Very boring.  LoL and Smite basically said "screw that, use these huge creep-blasting fireballs instead", and for me that made them playable.  It was like going from the rather dull "footsies" of Street Fighter to the wild, berserk fighting of Guilty Gear. 

As for the basketball analogy, it still doesnt work.  Why?  Because there havent been 10000 billion sequels and new versions in a genre called 'basketball".  It's like the potions in roguelikes that I think are horrid and arcane.  There's no excuse for them because every time a new game is made, developers have a chance to improve, to step AWAY from the obvious crappy, busted bits, and change things.  Really good developers know this.  Simply giving the player the same bloody thing over and over again is pretty much what I'm going to call Grey Shooter Syndrome.  They CAN change things.  Every time, they have the opportunity to change things.  And most times, they simply dont, because "that's how such-and-such did it before".  With something like basketball, we're not going to get "sequels" every two years that are totally new versions.  There's not going to be a "Basketball 5: Orange Sphere of Doom".  But in gaming, it's CONSTANT totally new games.  So when they stick to really bad mechanics in a new product, there's.... not much excuse for it.  To a very large degree, I think this is part of why HotS has done so well: Because it's FINALLY something that says "screw it" to the things that players like me hate so much.

Now as for that game's complexity.... eh, it doesnt matter too much to me to be honest.  Complexity has never equaled challenge in my mind.  Some of the absolute most difficult games you could possibly find are braindead simple.  Robotron, for instance.  Couldnt get more simple:  Shoot robots. Save humans for points.  Dont get hit by things.   The basics are braindead.  However the difficulty is so stupidly high that MOST players will lose within 2 minutes, if that.  This, too, is how I look at competitive games.  The challenge doesnt come from how bloody convoluted the mechanics are: It comes from the skill of the opponent.  And in games that push that aspect forward, the opponent's skill can shine through even if they HAVENT mastered the actual mechanics.  The fighting games, for instance.  I dont remember combos.  I dont use the training modes, because it's boring.  I dont theorycraft or look up statsheets or blah blah blah.  But I'm still going to trash even opponents that are very good at those things, simply due to sheer overwhelming speed. The fighting genre is very good at making sure that there's more to it than just the complexity (which is something alot of fans of the genre seem to miss).  I think HotS partly appeals to me because it seems to do that exact same thing.

It's an interesting facet of game design to think about, actually.  I could probably rant about it for some time. interesting when looked at in the roguelike genre also.  Something like Isaac, or Starward, or Gungeon, you could technically not even bother picking up items or weapons, and still win, simply via sheer skill in avoiding damage while wearing opponents down.  To some degree, I suppose that's part of what keeps me engaged with many games. 


And yeah, Battleborn really did crash and burn, didn't it?  I remember hearing about the game originally, seeing that it was releasing at basically the same time as Overwatch, and wondering: "Why in the bloody hell are they doing that?  What moron made that decision?  Who thought that they could compete with a new release from freaking BLIZZARD?"   it could have been an absolutely fascinating game with incredible depth, and it still would have burned up immediately.  Inevitable, and they should have realized this.  What were they thinking?

I'd love to hear the reasons behind that.  It's probably hilarious. 


Offline TheVampire100

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Re: Dota 2- 7.00
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2017, 05:15:07 PM »
Dota is at best a gloryfied farming Simulator. For soem this is a really cool game (like me) for some not so. The true gameplay shines actually in the endgame, when all heroes are ready and the big teamfights start, spells flinging left and right, combos work. It's very staisfying if you can pull of a great combination of skills and items and everything fits together like a puzzle. Problem for many is, Dota is simply slow paced. It has been faster with 7.00 but now Valve tries everything to pull it back more and more towards the old slow paced sytsem it was before, changing mechanics that made the game suddenly so fast. The early stage of the game is, what you descibed as "poking". Players hit creeps for money and try to compete for the gold. They fling spells at each other to see, how much they can aggro their foe until he finally tilts and comes for them, running directly into a trap. or until he retreats annoyed. The mid game is more targeted towards "okay, let's bring down soem towers but carefully because we are still not so powerful". Team gather at tight spots and look for opportunities to start a fight but are still careful because at that time both teams are still very close in terms of power. At the end game it shows, who had better farm during the game, the team that has the gold/level advantage can pretty much steamroll over their opponents unless the other team finds a way to prevent it. This does not mean that team a is unstoppable, but htey have it easier because the other team still has to be careful and wait for the right time. Depending ont he roster and what items you have, this may be different but many games favour toward this scenario.
You either like it or hate it, its a thing that you need to have a taste for to enjoy it. Especially the first 10-20 minutes of the game are mostly boring because nothign happens unless you play a roamer/ganker and target other lanes all the time. However, because the meta shifted, these became rarer and they now have to be a lot more careful than before.


The thing is, you try to make the analogy up with Moba, as Genre while you actually shoudl look it as sport in general. Moba=sports whiel dota is simply a type of sports. The analogy still does not fit 100% but Dota ahsn't changed that much in its release if you don't count the minimal balance changes. the only thing, that affected the gameplay massively, was 7.00 with the introduction of talents. This really shifted the meta a lot. Also, you cannot compare Mobas to each other as sequels. They are independet games that simply share the same genre. that's like comparing basketball and football (or soccer, if that's what you want to call it). They are both sports that use a ball. That's where the similiarities end or at least most stuff isn't related to each other. Mobas have som egeneral gameplay mechanics, that suits them as Mobas but htey are still totally independent games that invent each other a new.
Plus, there ARE different types of basketball. As there are with other sports. They simply aren't that big advertised and in many cases aren't professional.


Yeah, the thing with Battleborn and Overwatch is, they are two different games. Like, not even in the same genre. At all. But the problem is, it DOES look liek Overwatch and it was even announced BEFORE Overwatch, so whiel Overwatch wasn't even known, Battleborn was, but then Overwatch got announced and overshadowed everythign and as it is with big publishers, especially Blizzard, they tend to tend to make their ads appearent literally everywhere, you cannot NOT see the game. Battleborn on the other hand got evry little attention and not many people saw it and the people saw it, said it was an Overwatch clone.
But Battleborn is a Moba, similiar to Smite. It's more close to Smite than to Overwatch, if any, it's a clone from that game. It's some weird mix ob Moba, shooter and rpg progression. It also featured a long story campaign with big lore backgrounds for each character.
Liek in other Mobas, there is a base (a huge robot) that you have to destroy with towers inbetween (another huge robot) and your characters level up for killing minions and other heroes. There is only one lane but some hidden side paths that you can use to flank your opponent. Creeps figth each other and can be easily killed by heroes. With a recent change, hero roles now also influence the damage dealt to and taken from minions. Tanks simpyl take less, attacker simply do more.
Leveling up gives you access to talents, like HotS and you can increase your skills or normal attacks that way. Additionaly heroes had passive abilites and an ultimate ability. The similiarity to Overwatch was quickly drawn because they both use shooter elements, have a hero focused team system and have abilties, that you can use. However, Overwatch is pretty close to TF2 in that regard, it's still a shooter and just that, you just have different classes with different roles in the game isntead of having everyone doing the same, like in CoD and other war shooters.
In Battleborn you can even attack neutral creep camps, to hire them as "Mercenaries", so they fight for you. Defeating a neutral camp allows you to conquer it and summon your own version of these creeps. Additionaly there are crystals scattered around the map, that can be collected to activate your items (that you get while playing the game and opening lootboxes) and build some structures ont he map, like traps and attack towers or support towers to heal your allies. Its a lot more complex than Overwatch but a lot less than Dota. But it also lacks any kidn of stuff, that woudl make it shine out. Plus, huge performance problems. Game kidn of fall right under the radar for everyone and th epeopel that got notice of the game, were underwhelmed by it.


I've played today the beta of an upcoming Moba from Nexon. Hyper Universe. It was just a quick tutorial play and first impression, so I keep this as short as possible and will try to get into detail, once I know more.
Hyper Universe is a side scroller Moba, just liek Awesomenauts, instead of having a top down map or a first/third person perspective.
Hypers (the heroes of the game) sue a complete item set at teh beginnign of the match, you can select your item set from your loadout and you can customize these sests between matches. Every hero starts out with a recommended item set but you can build more if you want. The item set cannot be changed during your match. Heroes in Hyper Universe are more specialised towards there role as, for example, in Dota, where you can specialise one hero in multiple directions. Your items can somwhat change or improve on the natural abilities but it is recomennded, that you use recommended items for the hero. Heroes have one passive skill, four active skills and an ultimate ability.The skilsl are rather straightforward in their description and are simply different types of attacks in different directions but supports might have heals and other stuff for an example. A unique mechanic is the way, how AoE skills work. If you hit only one target with it, you deal all the damage to it, if you hit multiple enemies, you deal less damage to all enemies in the area, for example two damages take 80% damage each isntead of the full effect unlike in other mobas. The same applies to your normal attacks.
Skill damage is influenced by your level, your attack damage (there are no other stats except hp, mana, attack and defense) and of course the base damage of the ability.
The map is a little designed like a Metroidvania with multiple corridors and ladders and other stuff to access the different floors of the map.
Godl is divided equally amoong all players, no last hits here, if you kill something, the gold is added towards the total of your team. You can use gold to upgrade any of the items in your set, the max level depends on the item itself, but if you reach the max level of the item, it gets a special effect.
There are typical roles int his game, like in any other moba, a support for buff/debuff and heal stuff, a tank to take up most of the damage, assassins to dispatch single targets and other roles.
The game seems to be very casual friendly but migth be a little chaotic at first, because it's hrd to follow the movements of all the heroes/players at the screen, if you are unused to it. This is somewhat true to all Mobas however.
Plus, the game has Monkey King, like any Moba. Seriously, the guy is at this point a Moba cliché.

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Dota 2- 7.00
« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2017, 02:06:46 AM »
Dota is at best a gloryfied farming Simulator. For soem this is a really cool game (like me) for some not so. The true gameplay shines actually in the endgame, when all heroes are ready and the big teamfights start, spells flinging left and right, combos work. It's very staisfying if you can pull of a great combination of skills and items and everything fits together like a puzzle.

To me that just means that DotA would be better as an arena game. Start at max level with and item build and have at it. Skip the soul-crushing 40 minute farmville routine.

You either like it or hate it, its a thing that you need to have a taste for to enjoy it. Especially the first 10-20 minutes of the game are mostly boring because nothign happens...
Here's another problem with DotA. Most other games matches are over by this point. To use an old, tired quote: "Ain't nobody got time for that!"
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Offline TheVampire100

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Re: Dota 2- 7.00
« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2017, 01:34:55 PM »
Here's another problem with DotA. Most other games matches are over by this point. To use an old, tired quote: "Ain't nobody got time for that!"
Most other games aren't mobas.

Offline Misery

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Re: Dota 2- 7.00
« Reply #36 on: June 28, 2017, 01:05:47 AM »
Here's another problem with DotA. Most other games matches are over by this point. To use an old, tired quote: "Ain't nobody got time for that!"
Most other games aren't mobas.

This is true, but the problem isn't so much the amount of time: It's what it's filled with.  I understand the point of farming and such in this, but nothing really HAPPENS during these phases.  LoL and Smite have the same issue, but it's offset quite a bit due to the constant back and forth combat between you and your lane opponent, something totally missing in Dota.  In other words, even DURING farming in those games, there's still stuff happening to keep the player engaged.  However, the problem is definitely still there nonetheless.

Which is part of the problem as a whole, honestly, when it comes to the genre, is simply keeping players engaged, when that player isn't into grindy aspects of gaming.  There's too many moments of "stuff isn't happening" in these.  Whether you're just brainlessly poking creeps or running around slowly dropping wards, it often just seems like there should be more to do, but there isn't.  It might not seem so empty if these individual activities didn't take as long as they do, or didn't have such slow pacing.

Offline TheVampire100

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Re: Dota 2- 7.00
« Reply #37 on: June 28, 2017, 01:50:38 AM »
Actually, there happens a lot in these phases but it's kind of complicated. However, with the recent changes, that heroes take longer to level, these phases also get a little stretched.
It laso depends, on what kind of tier you are in Dota. The pro tiers play a lot safer and less daring then the lower tiers. Pro players know, if they try to make a step too early, they moght ruin the whole match, that's why you see more "poking on each other" int hese games. Casual games or the "pub tier" how it's often called, tend to be more dynamic and a lot more chaotic. Why? People don't talk to each other there and if they talk, it's most often insults. Pros talk to each other all the time and manage what they wanna do, casual gamers don't even care about this srtuff, they just want to play "their game". that's also the reasonw hy they are so pissed, if they loose or die, because they truly believe, the other teammates caused this, not they and they ruined the experience of this player. This is in soem cases even true but in most cases it's the fault of the person himself.
Anyway, I have a lot of dynamic casual games that rarely are boring. Teh games, that tend to go longer, are mostly the games were both teams are equally strong and both teams need a momentum to get the upper hand. they can do this thorugh one of two things. Either they win abig fight or at least kill an important enemy hero while not loosing one on their team. the other thing would be, farm 'til you have an item, that gives you another power spike. Looking for kill opportunities is hard, even more so if you are not coordinated with the rest of the team (and honestly, in pub tier NO one is this). Farming is way easier, you just have to kill creeps and collect gold. so they farm.

What a lot of people seem to underestimate, Dota is a game of mind fucks.  Players in Dota get pretty fast paranoid, more so, if you deny them vision from wards and deny them gold. Players will be very nervous, if they don't get their items and they get scared by the most triial things, Dota heavily relies on the fact, that your opponent looses his nerves. it's kind of crazy how much psychological this game is but it is.

I got a little carried away, but the thing is, people like this fact about Dota. A lot. The times, where "nothing happens" are actually very eventful, you just don't see it. It's more of a head thing. I'm more busy in doing stuff int he firstz minutes of the game as I am in the last minutes in the game. And even in the late game, when you wait for a big opportunity, you always are busy with anything.

Now, about Hyper Universe, I played it a little more and got a better feel for it. The beta is ending this friday, I don't know if the game launches for the public right after that or some time later but just some heads up when the earliest date might be.
There are six classes that are inspired by classic rpgs/mobas.
Let+s start with the easiest ones, Tank and Support. Tank is pretty much what you except, lot of helth, can take punches, lot of defense etc.
Support fills the typical role to cast buffs and heals on your team and gives a little indirect control over the flow of the battle.
Other classes are Bruiser, Striker, Specialist and Assassin.
Bruiser is a mobile frontlien fighter, similiar to tank but a lot more versatile. Whiel tank can take damage and only that, a bruiser also deals a lot of damage and casts nasty debuffs on the enemy to take over the control of the battlefield. Most of the time they have a lot of mobile skills to get in or out of battle fast. A good exampel of this is Jennifer, who can simply break through the ground or roof of floors to get to another level.
Specialist rely on quick spells and are identical to nukers/mages. They got a lot of low cooldown spells to deal damage to a lot of enemies at once and most of the time purely damage with little control. They can kill minions faster than other heroes and are great to farm the neutral camps for the team (because gold is shared) while also getting items from the creeps that permanently boost their stats. They can also quickly push the lanes that way and bring down towers faster but "pushing" is in this game kind of underrated.
Assassins act similiar to specialists but their spells are for single targets and dish out huge damage to a target. They roam the map to look for lone targets and kill them quickly. Since the map isn't so big to begin with and players tend to fight more on the tower/siege floors, assassins are probably the most underrated class in this game but I might be wrong.
Striker are basically the "carries" in this game. They do their damage mostly with their basic attack and all their skills just support this in one way or another. Because they rely on their basic attack, to dish out damage, they have the smallest impact in the early game but have a great impact during the end of the game, when other players run out of skills but they still can keep up the pressure with their basic attack. They heavily rely on items, more so than any other class (except maybe the tank class) because they need to boost their basic atatck. All other skilsl are pretty much worthless because they either do only little damage or just enhance the base attack in some way.

Matches in Hyper Universe are very fast paced and the early, mid and end game phases merge seamless together unlike in dota, where they are clearly visible. This game is actually really nice in the way, that I don't have to put much thought into it, which I have to in Dota (and want to) and can jsut have a big bral arena with tons of fun. So, if I want to have soemthing mor edeep or stratetgic, I play Dota but if I just want some arena mayhem, I play Hyper Universe. Matchmakign however takes foever, but this is most liekely because of the closed beta, there aren'tthat many players and probably even less in my region.

I think this could or could not fall intot he kind of "moba" section, which Misery looks for. I don't know, it simply removes everything, Miser disliked about Dota.