Does the new Steam refund system hurt indie developers? [TB video]

[Mánagarmr]

WoW really did butcher everything good about the lore, that is true. However, I'd say as a fan of the games the movie was still worth seeing, in spite of the changes. But I can definitely see how someone not in the knowledge of Warcraft lore would be utterly confused. Who are the orcs? Where are they from? What is fel magic? How is it different from other magic? Who are the Kirin Tor? Who are the humans, dwarves? What is Lordaeron? Stormwind?

There's just so much that isn't explained and that is glossed over in the movie. I had a pretty hard time following the story as well, as it's sort of a butchered amalgamation of four games, of which one is an MMO. That said, I still think they did a very respectable job. The acting was great (with the glaring exception of Garona and Lothar), the action was good, visuals were amazing and even though pacing was a bit uneven it was pretty good overall.

The casting for Khadgar was great. He was, hands down, the best actor in the entire movie. And the guy they casted as Medivh REALLY looked and acted the part. So overall, I'd say it's actually much better than expected.

[Mánagarmr]

(God I love this forum. DERAIL!)

[Wingflier]

That's good to know. I haven't heard a lot of positive things but I'm certain I'll get around to seeing it at some point, so I'm looking forward to it. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised. In general movie critics and I sometimes don't jibe very well.

For example I thought the recent Mad Max remake was freaking atrocious, even though it's reviews were glowing by just about everybody. The newest Mission Impossible movies are terrible and they just need to stop (though I liked the originals. I think 3 was my favorite.) I have no idea how anybody could get Hellboy (or the sequel) a good review, but they both scored pretty high.

The biggest critic blunder ever though in my opinion is probably Super 8. Holy moly Batman, that movie was bad. I guess it was supposed to be like ET for a new generation, but all it succeeded was being a disorganized trainwreck (no literally, there's a trainwreck scene in the movie that's so over the top it'll make you dizzy) with so many plot holes it could sink the Titanic...again.

[crazyroosterman]

That's good to know. I haven't heard a lot of positive things but I'm certain I'll get around to seeing it at some point, so I'm looking forward to it. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised. In general movie critics and I sometimes don't jibe very well.

For example I thought the recent Mad Max remake was freaking atrocious, even though it's reviews were glowing by just about everybody. The newest Mission Impossible movies are terrible and they just need to stop (though I liked the originals. I think 3 was my favorite.) I have no idea how anybody could get Hellboy (or the sequel) a good review, but they both scored pretty high.

The biggest critic blunder ever though in my opinion is probably Super 8. Holy moly Batman, that movie was bad. I guess it was supposed to be like ET for a new generation, but all it succeeded was being a disorganized trainwreck (no literally, there's a trainwreck scene in the movie that's so over the top it'll make you dizzy) with so many plot holes it could sink the Titanic...again.

do the Warcraft games have good writing to them? if so I might just go do some research because frankly from all I've seen the universe it self seems a bit uninspired really I get that building a universe as complicated and deep as you can find in books would be really hard considering that blizzard have to figure out excuses as to why the players do all the things they do but a bit of thinking out side the box would be nice particularly the races those are so generic (asides from some exceptions like the frost nights they seem vaguely interesting although I don't think they count as a race) that I don't even really care enough to look them up
but though I'm the sort of person who likes reading the broken empire  and who loved dune so I'm doubt I'm the target audience there.

ps what exactly are you talking about with the mad max remake? I really never heard about that

[Aklyon]

Even if the warcraft games have good writing, it'll all end up in WoW, which apparently just dumps all hope of decent lore-writing in favor of being ye olde mmo.

[crazyroosterman]

Even if the warcraft games have good writing, it'll all end up in WoW, which apparently just dumps all hope of decent lore-writing in favor of being ye olde mmo.

yea that's the impression I get when ever see gameplay of wow but on a slightly un related note I was in water stones today and  noticed one of the hour heresy book was on sale but I think it was the 5th in the series however it reminded me I need to start that series particularly since the book in mark Lawrence's latest trilogy finally got here and i bought it today.

[Mánagarmr]

I wouldn't say it's GOOD writing. As in "good enough to read a book about". But it's definitely not bad. It's about mid-level high fantasy novel writing. It's enjoyable, pretty deep sometimes and some characters actually have some real purpose and motivation for what they do and who they are. Then there's characters like Illidan who is so bland, boring and shallow, you'd miss him if you saw him in profile.

And people are DUMB. Dumb as bricks. Especially the night elves. Holy crap those buggers are dumb. Someone actually made a whole write-up of just how dumb night elves are. It's a hilarious read, even if you don't play the games.

Night elves are ****ups.

[Wingflier]

Night Elves are like the stupid character in a horror movie. Every decision they make creates an urge for the viewer to groan, but yet if they didn't make such stupid decisions, there would be no movie.

Even if the warcraft games have good writing, it'll all end up in WoW, which apparently just dumps all hope of decent lore-writing in favor of being ye olde mmo.

Yeah, I think I've written about this before, but MMOs are where good stories go to die. The thing is, you have to take all these bad-ass villains like Arthas, Illidan, and Mal'Ganis, who you've literally devoted 15 years of lore and gameplay building up, and then have them be defeated by...a completely random and unnamed group of people, over and over again, in succession, on and on forever.

How else can you do it?

Before World of Warcraft, they could make the story go however they wanted. Hell, you could be the one playing Arthas or Illidan (you were), so if they want to create a story in which the bad guys ultimately win, there's nothing stopping them from doing that.

But in MMO? Nope. *Insert random character here* is hero number 3,283,751 to defeat the undefeatable Gorgok the Mighty or whatever.

You can't make a good story out of that.

[crazyroosterman]

Night Elves are like the stupid character in a horror movie. Every decision they make creates an urge for the viewer to groan, but yet if they didn't make such stupid decisions, there would be no movie.

Even if the warcraft games have good writing, it'll all end up in WoW, which apparently just dumps all hope of decent lore-writing in favor of being ye olde mmo.

Yeah, I think I've written about this before, but MMOs are where good stories go to die. The thing is, you have to take all these bad-ass villains like Arthas, Illidan, and Mal'Ganis, who you've literally devoted 15 years of lore and gameplay building up, and then have them be defeated by...a completely random and unnamed group of people, over and over again, in succession, on and on forever.

How else can you do it?

Before World of Warcraft, they could make the story go however they wanted. Hell, you could be the one playing Arthas or Illidan (you were), so if they want to create a story in which the bad guys ultimately win, there's nothing stopping them from doing that.

But in MMO? Nope. *Insert random character here* is hero number 3,283,751 to defeat the undefeatable Gorgok the Mighty or whatever.

You can't make a good story out of that.

there were Warcraft games before wow? goodness for some reason I just automatically assume every Warcraft game was an mmo so in that case what were they then? I might even end up playing them if they sound fun
also I appreciate it when the antagonistic force sometimes wins(I appreciate it even more when there's no good and bad guys and everything's super gray but that takes really good writing and you cant make a fun video game out of that) especially from some one like arthas who from my limited knowledge sounds super op as a character.

[Mánagarmr]

there were Warcraft games before wow? goodness for some reason I just automatically assume every Warcraft game was an mmo so in that case what were they then? I might even end up playing them if they sound fun
also I appreciate it when the antagonistic force sometimes wins(I appreciate it even more when there's no good and bad guys and everything's super gray but that takes really good writing and you cant make a fun video game out of that) especially from some one like arthas who from my limited knowledge sounds super op as a character.

Holy crap yes.

Warcraft: Orcs and Humans was the first one. One of the games that really helped kick off and develop the RTS genre. You could play as either orcs or humans, story playing out similarly but with a different ending (Blackrock Mountain conquered/Stormwind razed to the ground).

Warcraft II: Tides of Darkness was the followup. Big focus on story and characters here. It's expansion "Beyond the Dark Portal" goes even more into the lore. There's a TON of lore in this one, most of which was sourced (and butchered) to make the movie.

Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos really kicked WoW off. This introduced a new continent, new races and fleshed out the story of the orcs A LOT. It also brought the Legion much more into focus and got the undeads (Scourge) off the ground. It also kind of touches on why the elves are such d*cks.




and then came WoW...and ruined almost everything. Vanilla WoW wasn't ALL bad, but it still did dumb stuff like shoehorn the night elves into the alliance and the undead (WHAT?) with the horde. They were originally meant to be separate factions entirely (hence why their capitals are so far removed from their allies), but were put in haphazardly with the horde/alliance because it was too complicated and gave too much player segregation to have more than 2 factions. Other than that, it stuck pretty close to the established lore.

[crazyroosterman]

there were Warcraft games before wow? goodness for some reason I just automatically assume every Warcraft game was an mmo so in that case what were they then? I might even end up playing them if they sound fun
also I appreciate it when the antagonistic force sometimes wins(I appreciate it even more when there's no good and bad guys and everything's super gray but that takes really good writing and you cant make a fun video game out of that) especially from some one like arthas who from my limited knowledge sounds super op as a character.

Holy crap yes.

Warcraft: Orcs and Humans was the first one. One of the games that really helped kick off and develop the RTS genre. You could play as either orcs or humans, story playing out similarly but with a different ending (Blackrock Mountain conquered/Stormwind razed to the ground).

Warcraft II: Tides of Darkness was the followup. Big focus on story and characters here. It's expansion "Beyond the Dark Portal" goes even more into the lore. There's a TON of lore in this one, most of which was sourced (and butchered) to make the movie.

Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos really kicked WoW off. This introduced a new continent, new races and fleshed out the story of the orcs A LOT. It also brought the Legion much more into focus and got the undeads (Scourge) off the ground. It also kind of touches on why the elves are such d*cks.




and then came WoW...and ruined almost everything. Vanilla WoW wasn't ALL bad, but it still did dumb stuff like shoehorn the night elves into the alliance and the undead (WHAT?) with the horde. They were originally meant to be separate factions entirely (hence why their capitals are so far removed from their allies), but were put in haphazardly with the horde/alliance because it was too complicated and gave too much player segregation to have more than 2 factions. Other than that, it stuck pretty close to the established lore.

1 I think I may just pass

2 so what's the actual gameplay? same goes for 3 as well I'm sure id enjoy the world building and lore(despite the races seeming to be a bit generic) but not nearly as much as the broken empire series I really really like everything I've read from mark Lawrence
as I mentioned before I got the latest book in the series and I'm utterly loving its easily the best of this current trilogy so far

3 wait so does that mean the undead are sentient? that's actually a little bit interesting

[Mánagarmr]

1 I think I may just pass

2 so what's the actual gameplay? same goes for 3 as well I'm sure id enjoy the world building and lore(despite the races seeming to be a bit generic) but not nearly as much as the broken empire series I really really like everything I Most Certainly Have read from mark Lawrence
as I mentioned before I got the latest book in the series and I'm utterly loving its easily the best of this current trilogy so far

3 wait so does that mean the undead are sentient? that's actually a little bit interesting

All three games are bog standard strategy games in the vague vein of Starcraft. It's the same company, after all.  Generally well made and balanced and easy to get a good overlook on battles. I'm not a fan of individual unit skills (such as caster units with triggerable abilities). I prefer if my units have a brain and use whatever they want at the right time, but YMMV.

And yes, some of the undead in the scourge are sentient. Some are mere zombies, while others are a little more intelligent and the death knights themselves are probably comparable to vampires in Vampire: The Masquerade. Generally very intelligent and insanely powerful.

[Wingflier]

Lol the Undead as part of the Horde. That is comical now that I think about it. I could ALMOST see the Night Elves becoming part of the Alliance, at least temporarily simply because the Undead had become so powerful, and at that point they were threatening the entire world. But hell, at that rate the Horde could have even become part of the Alliance. I'm pretty sure they did ally with them at least temporarily in Warcraft 3 because the demon/undead combo plus the Lich King was so massively overpowering.

To think that the Undead would just OH, WE'RE HORDE NOW. Yeah, pretty dumb.

[Mánagarmr]

Oh, there are dumber things than the undead joining with the horde. How about space paladins? Yeah. Draenai crashing conveniently near alliance territory and joining with them. Oh, and why won't we have the blood elves, former high elves addicted to magic, just do a 180 and turn to the people they've fought for decades? Sure, why not?

[crazyroosterman]

Lol the Undead as part of the Horde. That is comical now that I think about it. I could ALMOST see the Night Elves becoming part of the Alliance, at least temporarily simply because the Undead had become so powerful, and at that point they were threatening the entire world. But hell, at that rate the Horde could have even become part of the Alliance. I'm pretty sure they did ally with them at least temporarily in Warcraft 3 because the demon/undead combo plus the Lich King was so massively overpowering.

To think that the Undead would just OH, WE'RE HORDE NOW. Yeah, pretty dumb.

that is pretty stupid and just seems like lazy ness from blizzard from what i know the horde are seem quite tribe like and the idea that they would even accept the horde into their faction just seems like nonsence to me i think i might do a bit of research into the lich king hes had my curiosity for a while
hopefully hes not just an undead king that wouldnt be terribly intresting.